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I'm not sure if anoyone has brought this up but if you keep running into Fox's Rapid A attack while holding your shield your shield will get broken and then Fox will Usmash you and this can 1 hit KO you, so be careful.
Well I dunno... I mean... hey... we all like to have fun sometimes huh? You know... heh... it's like only 1 stock anyways, and your reflector just goes badoopsh...
Xiivi said:
What. That has nothing to do with ZSS.
After playing the matchup more, I have to say that I agree. Landing that Dsmash infinite isn't nearly as easy as it sounds below 35%. If we consider the other tools she has, then it's still in ZSS's favor, but you should be CPing this matchup anyway.
Hmm... for Pikachu though you forget to mention you have a hard time approaching, because Pikachu can out prioritize you well.
its true she has alot of range, but perfect shielding and SH airdodging usually leaves alot of her spacing moves punishable, she has a good amount of cooldown on alot of her moves, and if you know how to get around them, fox is fast enough that he can punish them. i really don't think this matchup is as bad as it looks on paper.
I would say yes, but I think Snakeee is better. Probably because I haven't seen Claw in person. I remember when I played him he completely overwhelmed me.
First of all its ZSS not ZZS.
This is not necessarily true. These are what I consider to be her spacing move, sideB, neutral B and d-smash. All of these have very low cooldown, only neutral B has cooldown that you can punish and that's only if you perfect shielded the shot right in front of her which shouldn't be happening.
Actually, matchup experience is just as useful as "theorysmashing." That's what friendlies and whatnot are for - to develop new tactics and ideas and all that jazz. Granted, many people who try to base it solely off of matchup experience are quite often wrong, because they judge playstyles, not actual quality of the moves against each other, spacing, and general ability of each character against each other.
Fox would never jump in with an SH Fair. You'll usually see this as a followup from Dthrow or bad DI against some other move, or a gimmick mindgame. There is no reason Fox should be approaching (ZSS, of all characters) with a Fair.
Fox doesn't have to approach in this matchup. Lasers and reflector beat out ZSS's wonky little blaster stunny thing on most stages, unless they're horribly cramped and small.
Depends on where you PS from, and most of the time, ZSS won't[/b] be able to react that quickly. Unless you have godly spacing and hit only with the very tip of each of those moves every time, a sliding shield or a PS will get you past easily.
I don't think so. U-smash is really quick, covers a wide area and lasts a long time while having great priority with a disjointed hitbox. Of course you aren't going to telegraph your approaches however, u-smash>dair. UpB can also lead into a d-smash if you don't DI properly and it will be almost a death combo on Fox. And also I don't think you are respecting ZSS's uair enough, it's fast, powerful and has great priority. Not to mention she still has her utilt on the ground which comes out frame 3 and will nullify your dair. Saying that you will get a dair combo in before we can react is really incorrect to say. However, I'm not saying you can never use a dair combo, I'm sure there is a situation in which a dair combo will land but in most instances ZSS will mostly be able to beat your dair even if you throw off timing with shine in the air. Basically just be aware that if you are approaching ZSS from above while she is in a neutral position, you are taking a risk.
Well tell the other Fox mains to stop talking about approaching. I understand maybe Fox should not be approaching in this match up but you really can't just assume that I will know all of how Fox plays. If all you other Fox mains just keep talking about what angle to approach and such I can only give my opinion on what they said. I didn't see your previous post while I was typing mine, so please understand my situation.
But it cant really force approaches. Its range is horrible, and its main purpose is to stun then to start combos.
fox has to approach eventually, his laser isn't good enough to camp with, it will add some damage, but as some point in the match you are going to have to approach if you want to actually...you know..KILL ZSS. and she's quick enough to close the gap on you, can't run forever.
Or you could wait for her to approach and then punish from there. Fox is great at punishing and can lead many combos and kills from it.
see thats the thing tho, ZSS isn't going to approach you where you will be able to counter, she's basically gonna be spacing you the entire match, get just close enough for the tip of her Forward B and Neutral B to hit, but she isn't going to walk right into fox's comfort zone.
The crawl however leaves Samus at a disadvantage to Fox though because her only option is to dtilt. This leaves Fox with a dair approach or possible DAC at close range (I don't know what has more priority I am just speculating that the dash attack wins =D) as Samus takes her time to approach with her crawl.
So you don't know the matchup. Great.
Unless you have, quite literally, perfect spacing, her moves are punishable. And I'm pretty sure there aren't many Azens. Sliding shield is good. I don't understand how you can say that if you haven't learned the Fox side of the matchup, because you're doing a lot of theorysmashing which doesn't really apply in matchups.
Not approaching =/= not attacking. It's simply making the opponent come to you - Fox has many more options if he can retreat, rush forward, jump, etc. etc., but many of those options are cut off if he has to approach. You're misunderstanding the meaning of not approaching.
Yes, I can assume that you have at least a preliminary understanding of the matchup. Why? Because if you don't know the matchup from both sides relatively well, you're in no position to speak about how it plays out. From your other posts, it's pretty easy to tell that you don't understand Fox's options in this matchup, and you're assuming perfect situations for ZSS to react to Fox. In real matches? It doesn't happen like that.
heres one for M@v too, and yes chemisty suxors
This is why sliding shield is not as amazing as you say. I'm not just theorysmashing when I say sliding shield is just alright. People do it to me all the time however, unless you slide enough to not get hit by the tip then the sliding shield is rendered useless. As you are pushed back and you still have lag in dropping your shield and dashing. PS'ing is better because you aren't pushed back and you only have 2 frames lag from dropping shield. Unless Fox some how slides more than other characters it applies to all pretty much. As long as ZSS hits Fox with the tip part of SideB his sliding shield is rendered useless.
ZSS will not continually crawl into you. She will stop after she reaches her middle range. This way she can attack you with her primary moves sideB and neutral B, however you can't do anything except shoot lasers (doing no damage) or illusion to reset the situation in which the same thing will occur. Now who is forced to approach? Fox, because ZSS is threatening him. She has options to attack him and he doesn't. There are more ways to force an approach and Fox is forced to approach in order to respect her options. Now then I believe this shows that Fox camping will not effectively force her to approach to the extent you want to.
