Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Zhamy]

This is why sliding shield is not as amazing as you say. I'm not just theorysmashing when I say sliding shield is just alright. 1) People do it to me all the time however, 2)unless you slide enough to not get hit by the tip then the sliding shield is rendered useless. As you are pushed back and you still have lag in dropping your shield and dashing. PS'ing is better because you aren't pushed back and 3)you only have 2 frames lag from dropping shield. 4) Unless Fox some how slides more than other characters it applies to all pretty much. 5) As long as ZSS hits Fox with the tip part of SideB his sliding shield is rendered useless.

Okay, let's go through the parts in bold.

1) Didn't you say that matchup experience doesn't matter?

2) Why wouldn't you slide enough not to get hit by the tip? ZSS will not hit with the tip of her moves consistently, so stop basing the matchup entirely on the theory that she has perfect spacing.

3) What.

4) You need to learn your basic mechanics. Go do a sliding shield with DDD and then do one with Sonic or Fox. Don't make statements you can't back up.

5) As long as Fox has perfect spacing, ZSS will never hit. Do you see what I did there?

LOL FOX HAS TO APPROACH AFTER A CERTAIN RANGE

Or he could just move away, bait an attack, empty SH, etc. etc. You know none of Fox's options, so stop pretending like you do.

Now who is forced to approach? Fox, because ZSS is threatening him.

No. The logic here is horribly faulty. Fox can just as easily move back, not to mention that this is a stupid situation that Fox shouldn't be in at all.

Since it's shown that Fox will be approaching in this matchup what would your options be?

Since it's shown that you don't know the matchup, don't understand Fox's options, assume that ZSS will be able to do everything perfectly, and haven't proven anything, why are you still trying to argue about the matchup?

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Zhamy beat me to posting

 

[Conviction]

Okay, let's go through the parts in bold.

1) Didn't you say that matchup experience doesn't matter?

2) Why wouldn't you slide enough not to get hit by the tip? ZSS will not hit with the tip of her moves consistently, so stop basing the matchup entirely on the theory that she has perfect spacing.

3) What.

4) You need to learn your basic mechanics. Go do a sliding shield with DDD and then do one with Sonic or Fox. Don't make statements you can't back up.

5) As long as Fox has perfect spacing, ZSS will never hit. Do you see what I did there?



Or he could just move away, bait an attack, empty SH, etc. etc. You know none of Fox's options, so stop pretending like you do.



No. The logic here is horribly faulty. Fox can just as easily move back, not to mention that this is a stupid situation that Fox shouldn't be in at all.



Since it's shown that you don't know the matchup, don't understand Fox's options, assume that ZSS will be able to do everything perfectly, and haven't proven anything, why are you still trying to argue about the matchup?

XD Round 2 of MUSD (Match-up Smashdown) and Zhamy comes with a wtf pwnage post.

 

[Lightning93]

Lol I'm scared to say anything now, it's a battlefield out here...

Lol studying for chem and math finals as well!

 

[Conviction]

Lol I'm scared to say anything now, it's a battlefield out here...

Lol studying for chem and math finals as well!

Smart Move. I might want not say anything unless some one really saying something stupid (if Zhamy doesnt' beat me it to )

P.S. for those just coming into the discussion watch your mouth or you might get post jumped >.>

EDIT: shut up Light -.- not here <.<

 

[Lightning93]

Smart Move. I might want not say anything either some one really saying something stupid (if Zhamy doesnt' beat me it to )

Ah honey, you should really listen to yourself sometimes lol. (Inside joke for those who don't understand why I'm calling him honey.)

Anyways, right now we have a situation where it seems one side is disproving the other. So can we really saw we're making progress through this discussion? If you can, then I'm sure Cross must helping somewhat, if only to strengthen our original views.

I just don't enjoy it when people get MUSD'ed, even though they may deserve it. *remembers Toon Link discussion* Although my defending may be ineffective, it just hurts my conscience otherwise.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

ZSS will not continually crawl into you. She will stop after she reaches her middle range. This way she can attack you with her primary moves sideB and neutral B, however you can't do anything except shoot lasers (doing no damage) or illusion to reset the situation in which the same thing will occur. Now who is forced to approach? Fox, because ZSS is threatening him. She has options to attack him and he doesn't. There are more ways to force an approach and Fox is forced to approach in order to respect her options. Now then I believe this shows that Fox camping will not effectively force her to approach to the extent you want to.

Since it's shown that Fox will be approaching in this matchup what would your options be?

Fox can empty SH, back away and shoot some more lasers, etc.

Okay, let's go through the parts in bold.

1) Didn't you say that matchup experience doesn't matter?

2) Why wouldn't you slide enough not to get hit by the tip? ZSS will not hit with the tip of her moves consistently, so stop basing the matchup entirely on the theory that she has perfect spacing.

3) What.

4) You need to learn your basic mechanics. Go do a sliding shield with DDD and then do one with Sonic or Fox. Don't make statements you can't back up.

5) As long as Fox has perfect spacing, ZSS will never hit. Do you see what I did there?



Or he could just move away, bait an attack, empty SH, etc. etc. You know none of Fox's options, so stop pretending like you do.



No. The logic here is horribly faulty. Fox can just as easily move back, not to mention that this is a stupid situation that Fox shouldn't be in at all.



Since it's shown that you don't know the matchup, don't understand Fox's options, assume that ZSS will be able to do everything perfectly, and haven't proven anything, why are you still trying to argue about the matchup?

Wow...Cross perhaps you should get someone over here to help you because you are clearly getting rocked to the bone.

 

[Zhamy]

Anyways, right now we have a situation where it seems one side is disproving the other. So can we really saw we're making progress through this discussion? If you can, then I'm sure Cross must helping somewhat, if only to strengthen our original views.

I just don't enjoy it when people get MUSD'ed, even though they may deserve it. *remembers Toon Link discussion* Although my defending may be ineffective, it just hurts my conscience otherwise.

I'm very thankful when people from the other boards come over, but I often find they're more helpful when they point out what their character can do, rather than trying to prove or disprove an advantage over another character. I only really go out of my way to disprove people like that when they insist that something must go a certain way or another. (Partially because I used to do it all the time.)

Also, why is "MUSD" an accepted acronym now?

 

[Conviction]

I'm very thankful when people from the other boards come over, but I often find they're more helpful when they point out what their character can do, rather than trying to prove or disprove an advantage over another character. I only really go out of my way to disprove people like that when they insist that something must go a certain way or another. (Partially because I used to do it all the time.)

Also, why is "MUSD" an accepted acronym now?

Get with it Zhamy MUSD (Match-up Smashdown) is a new thing I thought of when I looked at the Match-up thread during Toon Link discussion and people liked it. Anyways, your good at MUSD your a pro!

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

I honestly think that it should be renamed ZMUSD.

 

[-Cross-]

Okay, let's go through the parts in bold.

1) Didn't you say that matchup experience doesn't matter?

2) Why wouldn't you slide enough not to get hit by the tip? ZSS will not hit with the tip of her moves consistently, so stop basing the matchup entirely on the theory that she has perfect spacing.

3) What.

4) You need to learn your basic mechanics. Go do a sliding shield with DDD and then do one with Sonic or Fox. Don't make statements you can't back up.

5) As long as Fox has perfect spacing, ZSS will never hit. Do you see what I did there?



Or he could just move away, bait an attack, empty SH, etc. etc. You know none of Fox's options, so stop pretending like you do.



No. The logic here is horribly faulty. Fox can just as easily move back, not to mention that this is a stupid situation that Fox shouldn't be in at all.



Since it's shown that you don't know the matchup, don't understand Fox's options, assume that ZSS will be able to do everything perfectly, and haven't proven anything, why are you still trying to argue about the matchup?

We are assuming that because we are trying to determine a match up ratio that it will be at the highest level of play. This is not saying it will be perfect to the extent that they never hit each other but it is to the extent that stuff like spacing at the tip is applicable. And at the current highest level of play for ZSS players I would go on a limb and say they would take sliding shield into account and be able to tip with SideB even if you did a sliding shield.

Therefore ZSS having perfect spacing is not a theory. We are assuming that a player of Azen's skill is playing ZSS and a player of Azen's skill is playing Fox, we are not comparing how the match up is based on all ZSS's out there and all Fox's out there or there would be no basis of comparison.

Now that we cleared this out of the way, Fox should be trying to Perfect Shield rather than do a sliding shield. Why? Factually sliding shield is still normal shielding therefore it will take shield stun (move dependent) and lag of dropping a shield (7 frames I believe) before you can do anything productive and you will also be pushed back. Perfect shielding however has no shield stun and only 2 frames for dropping your shield and you won't be pushed back therefore you would be able to punish much better because you would have more frames to do so. At the highest level of play perfect shielding is the only viable way to punish ZSS on a consistent basis because sliding shield you are basically relying on a misspace which will rarely occur at top play therefore would not affect the actual matchup too much.

Now back to the stuff about crawling. What I was basically saying there was that essentially it becomes a neutral position. Essentially, neither character can effectively camp each other. Fox's main objectives while camping are too rack up damage and force the approach where he would have an advantage in the number of options and there is a higher chance that the opponent will make an error that can be punished. However, crawling makes it so that neither of the objectives are completed, and it becomes even disadvantageous for Fox to continue shooting lasers thus logically concluding that both characters will be approaching each other and not: ZSS will always be approaching and Fox doesn't have to.

So what does Fox have in terms of approaching and maybe an early proposal about the match up ratio?

 

[M@v]

Now Im studying Spanish, which is actually tomorrow. havent picked up the book until now. Thats mainly because I learned everything we have done in high school already

 

[Conviction]

I honestly think that it should be renamed ZMUSD.

Ok for this round.
MUSD Special Edition: ZMUSD!

 

[Conviction]

Now's It's My Turn!

We are assuming that because we are trying to determine a match up ratio that it will be at the highest level of play. This is not saying it will be perfect to the extent that they never hit each other but it is to the extent that stuff like spacing at the tip is applicable. And at the current highest level of play for ZSS players I would go on a limb and say they would take sliding shield into account and be able to tip with SideB even if you did a sliding shield.

Therefore ZSS having perfect spacing is not a theory. We are assuming that a player of Azen's skill is playing ZSS and a player of Azen's skill is playing Fox, we are not comparing how the match up is based on all ZSS's out there and all Fox's out there or there would be no basis of comparison.

Now that we cleared this out of the way, Fox should be trying to Perfect Shield rather than do a sliding shield. Why? Factually sliding shield is still normal shielding therefore it will take shield stun (move dependent) and lag of dropping a shield (7 frames I believe) before you can do anything productive and you will also be pushed back. Perfect shielding however has no shield stun and only 2 frames for dropping your shield and you won't be pushed back therefore you would be able to punish much better because you would have more frames to do so. At the highest level of play perfect shielding is the only viable way to punish ZSS on a consistent basis because sliding shield you are basically relying on a misspace which will rarely occur at top play therefore would not affect the actual matchup too much.

Now back to the stuff about crawling. What I was basically saying there was that essentially it becomes a neutral position. Essentially, neither character can effectively camp each other. Fox's main objectives while camping are too rack up damage and force the approach where he would have an advantage in the number of options and there is a higher chance that the opponent will make an error that can be punished. However, crawling makes it so that neither of the objectives are completed, and it becomes even disadvantageous for Fox to continue shooting lasers thus logically concluding that both characters will be approaching each other and not: ZSS will always be approaching and Fox doesn't have to.

So what does Fox have in terms of approaching and maybe an early proposal about the match up ratio?

WAIT!!!! I WANT THIS ONE ZHAMY!

what your saying is making no sense. The purpose of us slide shielding is to grab you or jc the shield, NOT DROP SHIELD TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. And if we are playing at AZEN's skills we wouldn't be crawling in the first place.

ZMUSD!

 

[FadedImage]

oookay. So I started reading some of this stuff and decided that it's getting ridiculous.

About Fox's lasers:
Fox's lasers DO NOT force an approach. The best thing they do is add damage when ZSS is spacing Fox. Consider the ZSS:Falco match-up. The reason it's so bad for us is because his lasers INTERRUPT our side-b (which we use to space and force approaches). Since Fox's lasers DO NOT do this, he MUST approach past our side-b. Also, claiming that our only option out of crawl is d-tilt is ********. You can shield and jump out of crawl with little-no frame lag. So no, we don't have to approach you.

About Fox's approach:
Fox does have really good speed, so he's able to keep up with ZSS and her mobility. However, d-air is not so great in this match-up, since ZSS has multiple options (u-smash, u-air, and up-b) that beat it out. You can't approach with dair at a 45 degree angle unless you're talking about sh'ing dairs into us, which is going to get you u-tilt out of shield every time. As for sliding shields, it's probably a good idea, but you'll get d-smash/neutral-b'd most of the time. Both options are unpunishable.

Overall:
Fox has a great form of KOing ZSS, u-smash. However, a smart ZSS will be able to avoid the rather telegraphed ways of connecting with one (dashing u-smash). You will have to rely on connecting with it out-of-shield or in combos, both of which will be difficult to pull off. I would say the match-up is a 6:4 ZSS advantage without the d-smash chain, since it's actually quite difficult to get. Probably 65:35 if you wanted to factor in the chance of the ZTD.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

WAIT!!!! I WANT THIS ONE ZHAMY!

what your saying is making no sense. The purpose of us slide shielding is to grab you or jc the shield, NOT DROP SHIELD TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. And if we are playing at AZEN's skills we wouldn't be crawling in the first place.

ZMUSD!

ROFL@THEEND!!!!

New acronyms = too good.

 

[Conviction]

oookay. So I started reading some of this stuff and decided that it's getting ridiculous.

About Fox's lasers:
Fox's lasers DO NOT force an approach. The best thing they do is add damage when ZSS is spacing Fox. Consider the ZSS:Falco match-up. The reason it's so bad for us is because his lasers INTERRUPT our side-b (which we use to space and force approaches). Since Fox's lasers DO NOT do this, he MUST approach past our side-b. Also, claiming that our only option out of crawl is d-tilt is ********. You can shield and jump out of crawl with little-no frame lag. So no, we don't have to approach you.

About Fox's approach:
Fox does have really good speed, so he's able to keep up with ZSS and her mobility. However, d-air is not so great in this match-up, since ZSS has multiple options (u-smash, u-air, and up-b) that beat it out. You can't approach with dair at a 45 degree angle unless you're talking about sh'ing dairs into us, which is going to get you u-tilt out of shield every time. As for sliding shields, it's probably a good idea, but you'll get d-smash/neutral-b'd most of the time. Both options are unpunishable.

Overall:
Fox has a great form of KOing ZSS, u-smash. However, a smart ZSS will be able to avoid the rather telegraphed ways of connecting with one (dashing u-smash). You will have to rely on connecting with it out-of-shield or in combos, both of which will be difficult to pull off. I would say the match-up is a 6:4 ZSS advantage without the d-smash chain, since it's actually quite difficult to get. Probably 65:35 if you wanted to factor in the chance of the ZTD.

Also I would like to factor is Shading on Fox's part (you seem understanding) seems we also SHade to pass your spacing moves as well.

ZMUSD to be continued.....

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

oookay. So I started reading some of this stuff and decided that it's getting ridiculous.

About Fox's lasers:
Fox's lasers DO NOT force an approach. The best thing they do is add damage when ZSS is spacing Fox. Consider the ZSS:Falco match-up. The reason it's so bad for us is because his lasers INTERRUPT our side-b (which we use to space and force approaches). Since Fox's lasers DO NOT do this, he MUST approach past our side-b. Also, claiming that our only option out of crawl is d-tilt is ********. You can shield and jump out of crawl with little-no frame lag. So no, we don't have to approach you.

Since you won't approach then we will just keep on tacting more and more damage on you with lasers because if the ZSS is spacing using her side b and not approaching and the Fox is spacing and shooting lasers you are receving damage while we are not.

About Fox's approach:
Fox does have really good speed, so he's able to keep up with ZSS and her mobility. However, d-air is not so great in this match-up, since ZSS has multiple options (u-smash, u-air, and up-b) that beat it out. You can't approach with dair at a 45 degree angle unless you're talking about sh'ing dairs into us, which is going to get you u-tilt out of shield every time. As for sliding shields, it's probably a good idea, but you'll get d-smash/neutral-b'd most of the time. Both options are unpunishable.

We can get past your interecpet by your utilt by shine stalling above you then drop down during the end of your utilt.

How is your d-smash and neutral b unpunishable? Just wondering because I'm not sure how they aren't unpunishable.

Overall:
Fox has a great form of KOing ZSS, u-smash. However, a smart ZSS will be able to avoid the rather telegraphed ways of connecting with one (dashing u-smash). You will have to rely on connecting with it out-of-shield or in combos, both of which will be difficult to pull off. I would say the match-up is a 6:4 ZSS advantage without the d-smash chain, since it's actually quite difficult to get. Probably 65:35 if you wanted to factor in the chance of the ZTD.

There are more ways to connect the usmash than what you think. I don't wanna sound stupid or anything but "mindgames" do come into play when it comes to landing the upsmash. I think this is one of the main things that determines an average Fox player from a great Fox. Everyone expects upsmash to come once 100%+ is reached, so the Fox player must be creative to land the hit and Fox's speed helps him temendously to achieve his goal.

 

[Zhamy]

Fox's lasers DO NOT force an approach. The best thing they do is add damage when ZSS is spacing Fox. Consider the ZSS:Falco match-up. The reason it's so bad for us is because his lasers INTERRUPT our side-b (which we use to space and force approaches). Since Fox's lasers DO NOT do this, he MUST approach past our side-b. Also, claiming that our only option out of crawl is d-tilt is ********. You can shield and jump out of crawl with little-no frame lag. So no, we don't have to approach you.

You're misunderstanding the meaning of an approach. Fox'll have to attack ZSS, yes, but she'll have to move into a range where it's possible for Fox to punish ZSS - and that's what it's supposed to do. It's not "Never Move Forward," it's forcing the opponent to move or be offensive up to a point. Granted, Fox doesn't have many spectacular options at the range that ZSS can "work" at, but it's not impossible for him to get through. Basically, Fox has to play ridiculously smart - sliding shield, baiting and rolling, etc. etc. The tip of ZSS's moves isn't where she works most effectively, though, so you'll often see this matchup in close proximity than expected.

Fox does have really good speed, so he's able to keep up with ZSS and her mobility. However, d-air is not so great in this match-up, since ZSS has multiple options (u-smash, u-air, and up-b) that beat it out. You can't approach with dair at a 45 degree angle unless you're talking about sh'ing dairs into us, which is going to get you u-tilt out of shield every time. As for sliding shields, it's probably a good idea, but you'll get d-smash/neutral-b'd most of the time. Both options are unpunishable.

Agreed on this part, but I'm pretty sure B is punishable (I've done it multiple times). Not sure on Dsmash, though, though from the ending lag, it looks punishable.

Fox has a great form of KOing ZSS, u-smash. However, a smart ZSS will be able to avoid the rather telegraphed ways of connecting with one (dashing u-smash). You will have to rely on connecting with it out-of-shield or in combos, both of which will be difficult to pull off. I would say the match-up is a 6:4 ZSS advantage without the d-smash chain, since it's actually quite difficult to get. Probably 65:35 if you wanted to factor in the chance of the ZTD.

65:30 or 70:30 in ZSS' favor, counting the Dsmash chain sounds about right. Thanks for coming over and contributing; your input is appreciated.

Something to consider: What about edgeguarding/gimping? Tether recovery and whatnot are things to consider. Discuss, continue, etc.

 

[Lightning93]

Be careful not to overuse the acronym, otherwise you lose it's meaning. It really should only be used when someone genuinely counters a statement lacking thought or consideration.

This discussion is turning into a mess, we keep getting aspects of this match-up brought up, then rebuked, then defended, then rebuked etc... why don't we start by making a list of what both sides agree on?

EDIT: Actually that last post seemed to bring things together a bit more. Although I'm sure there are some things still to converse about that haven't been settled.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

Something to consider: What about edgeguarding/gimping? Tether recovery and whatnot are things to consider. Discuss, continue, etc.

ZSS tether recover isn't that much of a problem for her. She can down b and then use her second just to go ridiculously far. It's quite amazing to be honest.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah she can go under bf like shes a flying character or something lol. her recovery is amazing.

 

[Conviction]

Be careful not to overuse the acronym, otherwise you lose it's meaning. It really should only be used when someone genuinely counters a statement lacking thought or consideration.

This discussion is turning into a mess, we keep getting aspects of this match-up brought up, then rebuked, then defended, then rebuked etc... why don't we start by making a list of what both sides agree on?

EDIT: Actually that last post seemed to bring things together a bit more. Although I'm sure there are some things still to converse about that haven't been settled.

Ok I will remember

 

[-Cross-]

WAIT!!!! I WANT THIS ONE ZHAMY!

what your saying is making no sense. The purpose of us slide shielding is to grab you or jc the shield, NOT DROP SHIELD TO DO SOMETHING ELSE. And if we are playing at AZEN's skills we wouldn't be crawling in the first place.

ZMUSD!

Don't you understand? I was talking about why sliding shield can't punish sideB not why you don't use it in general. What I said of course doesn't make sense if you aren't putting it in the context I am.

.... Assuming that you are at Azen's skill and you won't be crawling is horribly incorrect. Crawling is very viable. All your options are still available to you and you become a smaller hurtbox. And I was merely using crawling to show why laser camping doesn't actual force approaches that you can take an advantage in number of options available in the sense that the opponent will be running at you and will have less options as he can't do tilts or some of his smashes while you would still have all yours available.

However what Zhamy said was very interesting and I never thought of it that way. That makes sense and I can see why a Fox would want to do that.

And Zhamy D-smash doesn't seem punishable because the post lag is really really small. Just go to training mode and hold shield after d-smash and the shield pops up almost immediately after the hitbox disappears, dunno the exact frame data but that seems pretty unpunishable.

Also how about ZSS gimping Fox? What are thoughts on that?

 

[Zhamy]

Also how about ZSS gimping Fox? What are thoughts on that?

The gimmick tether thing doesn't work, but a well placed stunner limits Fox's recovery options. You probably won't see it being used often, though.

Otherwise, just gimp Fox with aerials normally.

 

[Lightning93]

A famous ZSS gimp I have seen recently is by interrupting a recovery with d-smash to a b-air stage spike. Seems very effective, so keep on the lookout for that.

 

[FadedImage]

Since you won't approach then we will just keep on tacting more and more damage on you with lasers because if the ZSS is spacing using her side b and not approaching and the Fox is spacing and shooting lasers you are receving damage while we are not.

And where are you going? You'll hit us for maybe 4-6%, we'll throw out a side-b. If you stopped lasering to shield, then you just slid away a little bit, and we're about to throw out another side-b, did you retreat and start lasering again? if so, sooner or later you'll hit the edge of the stage and be FORCED to either jump over us (bad idea) or approach us.

We can get past your interecpet by your utilt by shine stalling above you then drop down during the end of your utilt.

lolwut
I didn't even say u-tilt, that's a garbage anti-air attack.

How is your d-smash and neutral b unpunishable? Just wondering because I'm not sure how they aren't unpunishable.

D-Smash is COMPLETELY unpunishable. It generates more shieldlag then it has ending lag. You can actually d-smash someone's shield and jab their shield before they can even drop it. As for neutral-b, it is punishable if you are able to shield it directly next to ZSS, but any smart ZSS won't use a projectile when you're that close, it's like Pit pulling an arrow when you are standing right in front of him.

There are more ways to connect the usmash than what you think.

I know, I'm just saying that Fox will have to rely on these other methods, since setting it up in combos and out-of-shield will be difficult.

You're misunderstanding the meaning of an approach. Fox'll have to attack ZSS, yes, but she'll have to move into a range where it's possible for Fox to punish ZSS - and that's what it's supposed to do. It's not "Never Move Forward," it's forcing the opponent to move or be offensive up to a point. Granted, Fox doesn't have many spectacular options at the range that ZSS can "work" at, but it's not impossible for him to get through. Basically, Fox has to play ridiculously smart - sliding shield, baiting and rolling, etc. etc. The tip of ZSS's moves isn't where she works most effectively, though, so you'll often see this matchup in close proximity than expected.

no sir, I think YOU are misunderstanding the meaning of approach. I can just throw out my side-b aaaaallll day, and never have to worry about getting punished. You however, have to "play ridiculously smart" when trying to sneak an attack BACK at me. THAT is YOU approaching ME. I can see where you are getting confused, because yes, ZSS does have to come towards you, she does have to close the stage gap. However, this is something ZSS always does, it's not outside our comfort zone, it's actually exactly where we want to be, putting the pressure on YOU.

Agreed on this part, but I'm pretty sure B is punishable (I've done it multiple times). Not sure on Dsmash, though, though from the ending lag, it looks punishable.

answered above.

65:30 or 70:30 in ZSS' favor, counting the Dsmash chain sounds about right. Thanks for coming over and contributing; your input is appreciated.

np

Something to consider: What about edgeguarding/gimping? Tether recovery and whatnot are things to consider. Discuss, continue, etc.

you prolly won't gimp ZSS too often, she can recover quite well from most situations. The best thing you can do is maybe try to stage spike her tether recovery with a b-air or something, although that would be quite hard to land.

As for Fox, connecting with a solid aerial (b-air/n-air) off the stage will most likely spell his doom. However, that can be quite difficult considering how fast phantasm is. You probably don't have too much to worry about. Just stay away from firefox, since it is so easily edgehogged.

 

[Zhamy]

no sir, I think YOU are misunderstanding the meaning of approach. I can just throw out my side-b aaaaallll day, and never have to worry about getting punished. You however, have to "play ridiculously smart" when trying to sneak an attack BACK at me. THAT is YOU approaching ME. I can see where you are getting confused, because yes, ZSS does have to come towards you, she does have to close the stage gap. However, this is something ZSS always does, it's not outside our comfort zone, it's actually exactly where we want to be, putting the pressure on YOU.

Seems to be a difference of opinion, as I'm looking at it holistically, whereas you're talking about specific movements, although ZSS throwing out her SideB all day means free lasering, so I'd pick examples more carefully. I get what you mean, although I disagree.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

And where are you going? You'll hit us for maybe 4-6%, we'll throw out a side-b. If you stopped lasering to shield, then you just slid away a little bit, and we're about to throw out another side-b, did you retreat and start lasering again? if so, sooner or later you'll hit the edge of the stage and be FORCED to either jump over us (bad idea) or approach us.

We don't have to stop shooting and shield. We can jump farther away and fire more lasers or jump higher than your stationary/sh side b and shine stall a second to dodge your whip and then continue to shoot more lasers.

lolwut
I didn't even say u-tilt, that's a garbage anti-air attack.

Lol oops sorry =D I meant to write up smash. You will be surprised how help shine stalling is against anti air moves.

D-Smash is COMPLETELY unpunishable. It generates more shieldlag then it has ending lag. You can actually d-smash someone's shield and jab their shield before they can even drop it. As for neutral-b, it is punishable if you are able to shield it directly next to ZSS, but any smart ZSS won't use a projectile when you're that close, it's like Pit pulling an arrow when you are standing right in front of him.

Yeash I was only really focusing on the neutral b. I kinda had a feeling the dsmash wasn't punishable.



I like talking to this guy =D He makes a lot of sense. We need more people like this to come into our topics and help us discuss match ups.

 

[-Cross-]

Lol oops sorry =D I meant to write up smash. You will be surprised how help shine stalling is against anti air moves.

About this, Fox will probably have to stall more than once with his shine because if you ever seen ZSS's u-smash, it lasts for quite a while.

Yeash I was only really focusing on the neutral b. I kinda had a feeling the dsmash wasn't punishable.

If you are that close too punishing our neutral B I suggest you reflector. It paralyzes us and gives you a free combo/move.

I like talking to this guy =D He makes a lot of sense. We need more people like this to come into our topics and help us discuss match ups.

If you look at my previous posts, I said like exactly the same thing he said (before that whole **** where after Zhamy gave me a wtf pwnage post).

 

[monkeyx4]

i really hate this match up. my friend has a godly zss an kills my fox ground game. what i do is spam the gun an get some attacks in when needed or when she is open. dont get hit bye the dsmash at all cost if you do your finsh or try to di out of it

 

[Fenrir VII]

Secondly, and more importantly, I went to a tourney this past weekend, and played the first good ZSS I've played...

And it really wasn't an OMG TERRIBLE match... in fact, it really wasn't hard for me...

Yeah, he knew about the dsmash chain... and he kept trying to land it on me... through use of pivot smashes, roll smashes, double and triple smashes....

and it just...didn't...work. In two matches, I got hit with the dsmash only a couple times. Once, when I was about 40%, so it wasn't fully diminished, and I jumped out. Not a big deal. The other, he wasn't expecting to actually land it, so he botched a timing...

This reinforces what I had thought originally, be REALLY careful about the Dsmash for the first part of your stock, and it won't work in the later %s. You KNOW ZSS is going to try for it a lot...and it's just not that hard to bait and avoid... Don't be dumb and run into it... but yeah.

Other than the Dsmash, Fox has an advantage in this match, imo. He just seems to have quite a few more options here... and he can edgeguard her well, and just overall mess her up.

I'll admit that in the hands of an incredible player, Dsmash becomes a much greater threat... But even so, they have to hit it with you at a low % to land the whole chain, or it won't diminish properly, and you can jump out. I still give this an advantage to ZSS just because of the Fox player consistently having to worry about the Dsmash, but yeah. Realize that the Dsmash has decent forward range, but no backward... so you can keep mixing sides, and being in the air a LOT...and it's just not terrible. I two stocked him at least once...maybe both matches...I can't really remember, but yeah, I didn't have a problem with it.


So, I am removing this from my personal list of "wtf impossible" matchups. I'll let you all know if I figure out Pika. lol

What I posted from my own personal experience a couple weeks ago....

now for theory...there's a lot of weird stuff flying around in here.

First of all... apparently ZSS mains don't realize that Fox's Dair eats her usmash. It goes right through. it clanks with the tip of her upB, too, and keeps coming. The only upward attack that consistently works against Fox's Dair is utilt and sometimes uair.

And also, Fox has one of the largest sliding Dash shields in the game... and one of the most applicable moves out of shield in usmash.

Second... completely disregarding the "Fox forces approaches" thing... his laser is more viable, at long range, than anything she has... and therefore, he should win a long range fight... that should naturally make the ZSS need to get into attack position. That's just logic. in a normal setting, the laser will keep Fox from blindly approaching the whole match.

This perfectly spaced stuff that's flying around...... if I approach with a shield, and you go for a side-b, I'm not going to stay in my shield... I never do.. Obviously, there, the Fox should jump over or roll in. Roll in utilt works through side-B's lag... Roll in to dash shield grab warks against perfectly spaced stuff. Jump can usually lead to a Dair... but that's not given.
Thing is, side B is EASY to see coming, a bit slow, and very predictable with ZSS'sjumping arc, and easily punished. I agree, it's a great move, but Fox is too good at punishing it. Everybody here has been debating as if Fox takes the hit on his shield, and I simply don't understand why he ever would. I don't know every Fox's playstyle, but that's just speaking personally.
And on a side note, a perfectly spaced Dsmash against Fox's shield/perfect shield is punishable... don't kid yourself.

Another side point that drastically changes the matchup... ZSS has very few quick "get off me" moves out of shield... Many characters can just shield grab Fox, but her grab is slightly slower... Her utilt, jab, and usmash are decent for it, but still a bit limited. This leads to Fox being able to just be ALL OVER HER without too much fear. A lot of her moves are quick, sure... but even still, it seems like one Fox lands a hit...even on a shield, he can frame trap her REALLY well, and just overwhelm her.

In the air, ZSS's Bair is very good... but that's the only one that REALLY is a scare to Fox. uair can be, situationally. Fair seems to get eaten by a lot of Fox's aerials. Fox's Fair has nice anti-air range and priority. Nair trades with most aerials... and dair beats them from a good angle, but that's situational, too.

She also has a problem killing, as well... All of her kill moves are pretty good, but REALLY easy to predict and avoid... You really have to watch for Bair (easily the best of them), Uair, side-B, and flipstool kick... but all of these are good for certain situations only... so be aware of where you are, and watch for the situations.

In contrast, Fox, at higher %s, has to land a Dair to dsmash to put her in a very BAD position... or an usmash by itself, from a shield, from a Dair, or from a weak Nair to land fairly easy kill...

Off the stage, both characters can edgeguard the other pretty well, but both have hard times at it.

ZSS easily has the best recovery of the tether chars... but she is still a tether.. Fox is very quick, so he is able to get on and off the ledge, mixed with aerials and such, pretty quickly. His Dsmash sends the opponent at a HORRIBLE angle for her... and his Dair can be helpful for an edgeguard, but is a bit risky.
Fox, on the other hand, REALLY needs to vary his recoveries. Her Bair is very good against him, and he has to be more cautious that normal about recovery onto the stage, due to her Dsmash and other options. The main thing that keeps this tricky is the fact that if ZSS commits to hitting him off of the stage, it puts her at HUGE risk of death... it is Fox, after all.
I really think they're about even at edgeguarding capabilities here.

Things I've noticed, though, that really help Fox here:

the Dsmash "infinite" really isn't as applicable as first thought, if the Fox isn't an idiot.. (i.e. both players at tournament level skill). Of course it is still a deciding factor, but it isn't as bad as originally thought.

ZSS's Side-B is actually really simple to get around with Fox... one of her main zoning tools is mostly gone.

Shield pressure is amazing for Fox

He can combo her as nicely as a lot of characters. expect 0-30/40s consistently

She has large problems killing him, if the Fox is decent at varying recoveries (again...tourney level skill)

He has very little problem killing her, as her kill moves are situational and easy to predict/punish with a killing move of your own.


On a hilarious note, the ZSS player, after the matches was like "well, now what do I use against Fox??" hehe

I was hesitant to concede this match before, but now I REALLY am. I can admit that the threat of the Dsmash chain will probably keep this in her favor.. it's legitimate, but the fact that it has to hit early... and it's a limited move really helps Fox here.

And in my opinion, if you take the dsmash threat away completely, this match is largely in Fox's favor. He seems to have an answer to each of her options against the other characters...


With the possibility of an instant stock loss in a match, The matchup remains in her court, sure... but I would definitely limit it to 6-4 to 6.5-3.5.

7-3 denotes a hard counter, and I simply don't buy that one anymore. I think he has too many options against her.. and simply has to avoid one attack for the first part of his stock... not to mention that while she's spamming dsmash, he can just punish everything. I think I spoke things pretty well, but that's my take on it all.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

About this, Fox will probably have to stall more than once with his shine because if you ever seen ZSS's u-smash, it lasts for quite a while.

Which I do. Ask any person who has seen me play. I shine stall a lot and multiple times.

If you are that close too punishing our neutral B I suggest you reflector. It paralyzes us and gives you a free combo/move.

Yeah that's what I assumed.

If you look at my previous posts, I said like exactly the same thing he said (before that whole **** where after Zhamy gave me a wtf pwnage post).

Lol I must have not noticed =D

 

[Zhamy]

If you look at my previous posts, I said like exactly the same thing he said

Not quite. There are lots of little assumptions you made along the way, but now that the discussion is rolling, I'm not here to nitpick blah blah yadda yadda.

Also, when scotu mentioned Jab->Dsmash, he was right. It is a ridiculously stupid frame trap, and it works surprisingly well.

 

[NeoZero]

Just a few bizarre questions to Fenrir and/or any other person willing to answer it (no flaming please, I'm just curious on a few aspect of this discussion) :

This first is only applicable to normal shielding, k?

Question 1:

If you shield a downsmash, how are you supposed to punish me when I finish the move while your still stuck in your shield due to shield lag?

Question 2:

Situation: Each player is at the end of Final Destination

If I crawl slightly forward while at my end (just enough to get into the crawl), how are you supposed to "win" the long ranged confrontation? I mean, I wouldn't be doing anything to you, but I wouldnt be sustaining any damage from your laser either. I would only be at a slightly disadavantageous position, but for you to take advantage or that, you would need to approach me. If you approach me, won't I at least have enough time to kinda react to your approach?



Thanks for your patience.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

This first is only applicable to normal shielding, k?

Question 1:

If you shield a downsmash, how are you supposed to punish me when I finish the move while your still stuck in your shield due to shield lag?

i'd probably jc my shield either, away or to Nair/Dair behind you. if im dead on you i might try a grab but, 70% of time time ive just jumped away though since attacking wasn't always a good idea

Question 2:

Situation: Each player is at the end of Final Destination

If I crawl slightly forward while at my end (just enough to get into the crawl), how are you supposed to "win" the long ranged confrontation? I mean, I wouldn't be doing anything to you, but I wouldnt be sustaining any damage from your laser either. I would only be at a slightly disadavantageous position, but for you to take advantage or that, you would need to approach me. If you approach me, won't I at least have enough time to kinda react to your approach?

firing the laser is just to get you to move into your ideal range against me rather than me running over to you. reguardless if you take the damage or not. i think winning the long range battle means i force you to not stand over there waiting for me, i get you to make the advancing.

 

[Zhamy]

If you shield a downsmash, how are you supposed to punish me when I finish the move while your still stuck in your shield due to shield lag?

Probably jump out of shield, or are you counting sliding shields too? If that, then if in range, go for a grab.

If I crawl slightly forward while at my end (just enough to get into the crawl), how are you supposed to "win" the long ranged confrontation? I mean, I wouldn't be doing anything to you, but I wouldnt be sustaining any damage from your laser either. I would only be at a slightly disadavantageous position, but for you to take advantage or that, you would need to approach me. If you approach me, won't I at least have enough time to kinda react to your approach?

So maybe one laser will hit, and then we will stall until the end of the much and I win by percent advantage?
Or we both get disqualified for stalling? Or any number of things, really. Point is, someone's going to have to move eventually, and as long as Fox has a chance of dealing damage at that range, he's not going anywhere.

 

[FadedImage]

stuff

I don't mean to be a **** here (well, maybe I do). But you just said a whole lot of **** that doesn't make any sense.

I read a lot of nonsense about the d-smash being punishable (it's not, it counts as a projectile, as such, if it hits, we don't get hitlag, you do, end of story). Other crap about d-air eating u-smash (which hits through GaW's key). Other garbage about ZSS's lack of kill moves (lol, we've got 5, you've got 2) or their predictability (again, more options, and they're all considerably fast).

Some bull**** about Fox getting around our side-b easily, umm how is Fox any different from every other character in the game that makes him capable of completely transcending the side-b? And before you go into some shpiel about roll punishing, realize that that is our goal. We want to force you, into roll/jumping TOWARDS US, into our varied punishments, because side-b has NO (zero, zilch, nadda) landing lag. Not to mention ZSS isn't going to be throwing the sweetspot behind you, so I doubt you'll be able to reach her with one roll.

Of course, we're talking tourney level skill here (and before you start calling me out, I'll drop Champ's name: that's the Fox I play most against). Again, I apologize for the flame, but you really have no idea what you are talking about.


As for the other Foxies:

A lot of ZSS's anti-air is quick, so shine stalling will work if timed really well (against u-smash and up-b). BUUUT, don't rely on it, because we may just jump right into you and u-air you out of the shine (our jump is suuuper fast, so you probably won't have time to drop the shine once you've started it), so you'll have to mindgames between straight d-air and stalling to d-air when coming from above, stay unpredictable.

The point about the laser debate is this: we WILL take damage, however, you will have to react to our side-b somehow, whether it's retreating to shoot more lasers, or coming at us. If you keep retreating, there's only so much stage before you run out and have to do something to get past us, whether it's phantasm/jump/roll what have you, and we'll be waiting! d:

 

[JigglyZelda003]

As for the other Foxies:

A lot of ZSS's anti-air is quick, so shine stalling will work if timed really well (against u-smash and up-b). BUUUT, don't rely on it, because we may just jump right into you and u-air you out of the shine (our jump is suuuper fast, so you probably won't have time to drop the shine once you've started it), so you'll have to mindgames between straight d-air and stalling to d-air when coming from above, stay unpredictable.

shes not just quick shes like lightning, and if you do jump to Uair and we shined yes you can hit us more or less before we can do something else. at least thats whats happend to me if i stalled thinking of an Usmash coming.

 

[Zhamy]

Mmm...a war with the ZSS boards.

Just what we needed. (Guys, that was sarcasm.)

Can we agree on 65:35 or something already?