Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[JigglyZelda003]

but don't iceblocks block lasers? and that about if they sideb approach

 

[Zhamy]

but don't iceblocks block lasers? and that about if they sideb approach

Iceblocks make fun of lasers and crap all over them.

If they SideB to approach (although I really haven't seen that happen too much), **** them with a Dair or dropped Nair.

 

[Collective of Bears]

whats an easy way to safely split them up? also what stage? i've never really fought the ICs with Fox.

Play on Japes. If you can Dair a Climber into the water, they're screwed for sure. Since they can't recover without both of them being together, it makes it impossible for them to recover.

 

[A6M Zero]

Play on Japes. If you can Dair a Climber into the water, they're screwed for sure. Since they can't recover without both of them being together, it makes it impossible for them to recover.

I'd rather take my chances with Rainbow Cruise than getting CG-spiked at 0%

 

[Lightning93]

Huh, I didn't know Nana had her own hidden damage meter, that should make this match a little easier.

Another thing to look out for when approaching is their smashes. They come in pairs, and each one alone is hard to get through because it covers them from all around. My d-air has been thwarted away before by an f-smash, and that sets them up for another grab. So just be patient, and like Fenrir stated let them approach you and separate.

Oh btw I just wanted to let you guys know I mastered the FLAMEDASH, I could not be more godly than I am right now.

 

[A6M Zero]

Lightning93, you have a day to edit that to say FLAMEDASH

 

[Zhamy]

So I just played the Lucas matchup rather extensively, and I can say that the sonuva***** screws Fox hard in the air. Really. Really. Hard. **** priority.

And DDD is such a fun matchup. I forgot how fun it was to combo that fat penguin to hell and back.

(Lastly, Melee is a better game, even if I suck balls at it now.)

 

[Lightning93]

Lol, yeah Lucas ***** pretty hard if you take him to the air. And I edited my last post to say FLAMEDASH!

 

[NinjaFoxX]

Iceblocks make fun of lasers and crap all over them.

If they SideB to approach (although I really haven't seen that happen too much), **** them with a Dair or dropped Nair.

a good IC wont make a squall approach ovbious enough to quickly counter it,you have a chance to shieldgrab but you also have a chance to get grabbed yourself

Play on Japes. If you can Dair a Climber into the water, they're screwed for sure. Since they can't recover without both of them being together, it makes it impossible for them to recover.

japes has high blastzones, this would probobly gimp your own game even more than theirs

Huh, I didn't know Nana had her own hidden damage meter, that should make this match a little easier.

Another thing to look out for when approaching is their smashes. They come in pairs, and each one alone is hard to get through because it covers them from all around. My d-air has been thwarted away before by an f-smash, and that sets them up for another grab. So just be patient, and like Fenrir stated let them approach you and separate.

Oh btw I just wanted to let you guys know I mastered the FLAMEDASH, I could not be more godly than I am right now.

dair->dsmash works wonders, use it
if you go for a grab try to grab nana for dthrow->fair will split them up the easiest
watch for SH blizzards, and just shine the iceblocks.
if they desync, youll have a better chance of gimping nana, just watch the players movements and...well...dont get grabbed

also,6:4 IC, 8:2 if they can CG perfectly


p.s, try a drill to FLAMEDASH, it may be useful

 

[Fenrir VII]

but don't iceblocks block lasers? and that about if they sideb approach

Iceblocks make fun of lasers and crap all over them.

If they SideB to approach (although I really haven't seen that happen too much), **** them with a Dair or dropped Nair.

You can laser faster than they can ice block... I wasn't sure in my OP if lasers and iceblocks collided... apparently they do. If they do, it stop their camping game a lot harder than it stops yours.

Side B is a nuts approach, but yeah, if you catch them in it, Dair is amazing. shield usmash is really nice, too...

Huh, I didn't know Nana had her own hidden damage meter, that should make this match a little easier.

Yeah... you'll notice it if you can just put damage on Nana. Go to training mode or something, ONLY attack Nana for a while... roughly 50%ish... and then let them sync again. then usmash them and watch.


Oh btw I just wanted to let you guys know I mastered the FLAMEDASH, I could not be more godly than I am right now.

Lightning93, you have a day to edit that to say FLAMEDASH

These two posts made my day.

FLAMEDASH wrecks them... melts blizzard and ice block. too goods.

 

[M@v]

Ice Climbers can't take the heat of the FLAMEDASH

 

[Fenrir VII]

lol I like how I started a trend.

You know, I was originally mocking this new AT, but I think there maybe something to it...

Behold... the awesomeness of the FLAMEDASH!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO344IpY2kk

...borken...






all legitimacy this thread used to have is completely gone... but meh, it's boring in here during the day.

 

[Lightning93]

That was the most perfectly executed FLAMEDASH I have seen as of yet. It was so beastly it didn't have to even abide by the game's perimeters or even brawl's original design!

 

[NinjaFoxX]

guys, how do i FLAMEDASH!? i must learn this

 

[Lightning93]

Don't, I'm sorry guys but the FLAMEDASH just broke my Wii. It's too broken for it's own good. Please, stop before you destroy yourself!

 

[Fenrir VII]

But...I...can't...stop...
...
FLAMEDASH...too....good....Aaaaaaaah

 

[Xiivi]

You guys. I know you all find the flamedash joke funny and all, but let's not get off topic.

We're discussing Ice Climbers here.

I'd like to get the conversation back on track by bringing up the fact that solo IC can still give trouble with downthrow chaingrab to the ledge followed by forward smash. This is a pretty bad match-up overall. :/

 

[Fenrir VII]

You guys. I know you all find the flamedash joke funny and all, but let's not get off topic.

We're discussing Ice Climbers here.

I'd like to get the conversation back on track by bringing up the fact that solo IC can still give trouble with downthrow chaingrab to the ledge followed by forward smash. This is a pretty bad match-up overall. :/

Fair enough. I'm back now.

Honestly, this is a match in which "don't get grabbed" actually makes sense.

ICs kind of lack mobility and grab range. I mean, sure, a mediocre Fox is easy to grab... but I don't think it has to be that way.... I think the words "don't get grabebd" can somewhat apply. They have interesting grab setups with desyncs and such, but it just seems to me that if the Fox recognizes these and doesn't just think "OMG ICs NOOOO"

I just think Fox needs to be careful...

Admittedly, I don't know this match very well... so I really shouldn't be the only one arguing here... I'm just looking at what experience I do have... and how the match is on paper... so yeah.

 

[M@v]

seriously. " Dont get grabbed" Cant be more true here. IC's can rip you apart,(as they can many others) if they get their hands on you.




P.S I know we are off the flamedashing joke and all, but I made a section about it in the OP.

 

[§witch]

Did somebody say FLAMEDASH?!?!?!?!

 

[RPK]

You can always run past them, and grab. Or just straight up grab them. Because when your grabbing someone you cant get grabbed! Id say with this match up, play with the platforms. Try and get under them, and all around them. Just dont land next to them...You could also try seperating them with a forward throw. Or pivot wavegrab so you seperate them and then throw.

 

[chaindude]

lol I like how I started a trend.

You know, I was originally mocking this new AT, but I think there maybe something to it...

Behold... the awesomeness of the FLAMEDASH!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kO344IpY2kk

...borken...


all legitimacy this thread used to have is completely gone... but meh, it's boring in here during the day.

/agree
offtopic: gah GunZ i remember being obsessed with that game for the longest time,best advice in my sig


anyways recently played my friends ice climbers as promised to A6m Brinstar was crap lol but pokemon stadium 2 worked well when it changed to all but earth tripping on ice messed up there grabs the wind pushed me up and well the electric one they are just too slow (no pun intended)

 

[Zhamy]

I'd like to get the conversation back on track by bringing up the fact that solo IC can still give trouble with downthrow chaingrab to the ledge followed by forward smash. This is a pretty bad match-up overall. :/

IIRC, it goes to 45%? Or something along those lines, although I'm not sure if Popo has a guaranteed followup on it.

 

[NinjaFoxX]

IIRC, it goes to 45%? Or something along those lines, although I'm not sure if Popo has a guaranteed followup on it.

theres no followup scince by that % you can DI out of it really easily

 

[Lightning93]

When you do start a combo, IC have a hard time getting out of it. They have fairly good aerials that either have lasting hitboxes or nice cover, but if you're fast you can outdo them. The most important thing here is to keep them separated and always be expecting of the main trying to stop you. You're alot faster so a well timed d-smash will be a nice separator.

Really guys, have you even thought about the FLAMEDASH before, it has so much untapped potential, it makes me shiver. I think everyone who could possibly make jokes about it (as if anyone ever does) should really fear it. No ordinary person can contain its power. I mean it can be canceled with ANY MOVE, even another FLAMEDASH, it's unthinkable...

 

[Conviction]

Once again alert the opposing thead about the Match-up discussion.
I feel..... a new edition of MUSD is coming....
Brrr...... MUSD3: ICMUSD

 

[JigglyZelda003]

IC MUSD could be interesting lol

 

[Lightning93]

Possibly, but I find that the ZSS discussion had a lot of changing numbers and many conflicting views, whereas I think we can agree upon much within this match-up.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

possibly the Zamus effect. but where are all the other ICs at so we can have more of an absolute concensus? someone needs to go confiscate Nana lol.

 

[Zhamy]

Okay, I played the matchup for about three hours yesterday, and it's entirely dependent on separating the two.

When the two ICs are together, Fox will get *****. Hard. They have a good number of options for approaching, some high priority aerials, and some rather tricky ways to get past Fox's defensive options. And, of course, the chaingrabs.

That being said, it's a very different game when they're separated. Killing Nana is easy and fun. Popo still has some stupid stuff (chaingrab goes to 30% or something like that guaranteed, can get up to 45% if you have bad DI), but it's easily in Fox's favor when it's a lone IC.

When the two are together: Watch out for priority, especially in aerials, and don't stay on the ground predictably. Nair and Bair are wonderful tools, and fullhopping may oftentimes be better than shorthopping. Separate them with a Dsmash, Dair->Utilt, Nair/Bair (at mid percentages). Kill Nana first - she can't DI for crap, she doesn't know how to shield, and she doesn't understand YOU MUST RECOVER. Obviously, don't get grabbed.

When Popo is left: Combo the crap out of that loser.

 

[Lightning93]

Yep that sounds like a reasonable and well-done summary. Can we get some evidential discussion to go along with that?

 

[Toronto Joe]

gl getting rid of nana quickly vs a good ics main, its not as easy in game as it is on paper

like most chars vs ics, you gotta camp and wait for your opportunity to punish their mistakes......never approach ics, your going to get grabbed

 

[GwJ]

Yea, it really isn't. I'm a terrible IC (I'm trying to secondary at least) and people still have a bit of trouble, and I usually end up losing Nana when I'm 100%+ and am about to die anyway.

 

[Fenrir VII]

I don't generally like using Melee gameplay in Brawl discussion, but I feel it's viable here.

The IC's is Melee had a potentially 0-death CG on Fox... and the only solid way for him to avoid it was either with absolutely perfect DI and a mistake on the ICs part, or by just not getting grabbed... thus, his game evolved to the latter, and the Fox player HAD to avoid it.

ICs had very good ways to land grabs, Nana was ********, Popo had GREAT mobility when they were separated to frustrate the Fox player.


Melee turned into Brawl. Some major thing changed, but the mathcup mindset, imo, stayed the same.

Fox lost his insta-fixer in shine. The ICs have a better defensive game (everybody does as Brawl is more defensive based), but lost a LOT of their mobility and setup options when wavedash was removed. Nana is still ********, but slightly less so. etc etc.

My point is this... you still just have to NOT GET GRABBED... That does not mean you can't approach, though. FHs over their shield are (used in a mixup of course) almost completely unpunishable. This sets you up for an utilt against a shield, which very well may catch Nana in it, as her shield/dodge response time is slightly slower than Popo's. Other things that could catch her are a Dair (from BEHIND), a Fair on their SH, etc... anything that could send the popo (with DI) and Nana (without DI) in two different enough directions.

There's this difference between an approach and rushing wildly in with a SH aerial on their shield. I actually believe that, if properly mixed, Fox is at more of an advantage when he approaches than when they approach him... I know, this is kind of a new thing...even for me...But I believe it here. As long as he can keep landing behind them... or grabbing them, he can survive the fight.

 

[Galanoth7395]

Everyones saying to kill Nana. But I think you guys forgot something: if Popo is on the ground and Nana is in the air, and Popo shields, Nana air dodges. So against a good IC player, I say to be sneaky about it.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yes and no, the main rules almost everyone follows to fight the ICs is:

1. Kill Nana
2. Don't get grabbed
3. proceed to finish popo

and since Nana always does things a hair slower than Popo a multihit air attack (Fair/Dair) poops all over her airsidestep. lol

 

[NinjaFoxX]

yes and no, the main rules almost everyone follows to fight the ICs is:

1. Kill Nana
2. Don't get grabbed
3. proceed to finish popo
4.???
5.PROFIT

and since Nana always does things a hair slower than Popo a multihit air attack (Fair/Dair) poops all over her airsidestep. lol

fixed that for ya

and again,drill tilts are your best bet,then again drill is always the best move,:}

 

[Shintarru]

I think you should focus on dair but dont get to predictable or you gonna get sheild grabbed. Dont get grabbed and dont get predictable.

lol Hai I am new to the fox boards hopefully I can help =)

 

[Galanoth7395]

Well, I discovered that blaster deflects their ice blocks. Speaking of blaster, blaster spam plays a strange part in this battle. If you spam on a single climber, then hit them both, they'll become separated. You'll have to be careful at close range, though, getting grabbed is quite unhealthy for you. IC can pull off a CG on you, then follow up with their godly D-smash. They've got cruddy aerials, so try to put them in the air. Not an easy matchup. 25:75

Welcome to the Fox boards, Shin

 

[SCOTU]

Not getting grabbed is the #1 thing to avoid in this matchup. Separating Nana and Popo is #2. Killing Popo is number 3, and gimping nana is number 4.

Dair isn't as effective against climbers as it is against most characters, since hitting both of them with a dair will cause you twice as much hitlag (one normal amount from each), but they'll still individually receive the normal amount of hitlag/ hitstun, making it far harder to combo off the dair if you hit both of them.

Make sure you're CPing gay stages like norfair, brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, anything that has stage hazards that would stop them from CGing for long periods of time is a good CP.

Normally fox likes long shooting lanes for laser camping, but FD and Smashville are both IC's best stages as well. Since ICs are advantaged in the matchup, ban FD against them so that they can't use it against you.

Shine becomes more important in this matchup because it's fast, and can separate the climbers, as opposed to his jab/utilt which don't.

Never attack them when they can shield. If they can shield, and you're doing an aggressive attack, you're doing it wrong. Only attack when they're in lag of something, or are in the air in such a way that air dodging your attack doesn't allow them to land a grab when they/ you land.

This is one of fox's hardest matchups IMO and i would not put it as any better for fox than 85:15 in favor of ICs