Fox Match-Up General Discussion

[Zhamy]

plus Falcon's knee is sort of hard to land on Fox because of his size and speed.

WTF. That has nothing to do with it.

 

[Toronto Joe]

55:45 Fox.....Falcon does surprisingly well vs Fox, but the basic laser camping and utilt to the trick......Falcon is very underrated in brawl imo, fox has just as much of a terrible approach and hes not looked as lowly, in the right hands both characters have loads of potential

this was fun to watch, Rebaz has gotten much better though from recent vids, im not sure about Gregs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iYFXG4-Z0yU

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

55:45. That sounds reasonable, eh?

No 60:40 sounds reasonable. Fox's ship is faster than Falcon's.

 

[Leafplayer452]

Well whenever I fight a CF, I think it all comes down to who is a natural good player and who is faster at performing attacks and trying to just pound the heck out of each other first lol

 

[Lightning93]

Well whenever I fight a CF, I think it all comes down to who is a natural good player and who is faster at performing attacks and trying to just pound the heck out of each other first lol

That kind of enforces the equal aspect of this matchup, so I would agree 55:45, unless someone can bring up a rather turning point. I've read all of this discussion, but feel free to bring something back up again.

ON THE FIFTH DAY OF CHRISTMAS SANTA GAVE TO ME, A D-AIR TO A SHINE SPIKE!

 

[Lightning93]

ON THE SIXTH DAY OF CHRISTMAS SANTA GAVE TO ME, A SHORT HOP, DOU-BLE LAZOR!

The days of Christmas are almost over, I think Santa has saved the best for last.

Anyways, I'm sure everyone is enjoying their holiday break, (or is at least trying) but in relation back to the match-up, an overall summary would go like this:

Gimping - Falcon>Fox (due to interrupt-able recovery on Fox's side, while Falcon Dive is considered a grab and has larger priority than a shine spike and d-air if performed correctly)
Combos/OnStageGame - Fox>Falcon (neither character has great approaches in this matchup, but due to Fox's lasers and acceptable speed [compared to Falcon] he can avoid approaching for the most part so it tips slightly in his favor, both have deadly combos but Fox's are better)
Air Game - Falcon=Fox (Falcon has fairly decent aerials that enable more knockback than Fox overall, but have low priority and can be countered with another well-placed aerial)

Fox has better combos and can lead to quicker kills (although Falcon's come close), but Captain Falcon has a less risky recovery that is harder to gimp. Both can be deadly in the air, but Fox still has options that can prevent being pushed off the stage in the first place. He has better camping abilities and his defense allows him to be patient forcing the Falcon to work a bit harder. It doesn't seem like either character has much more of an advantage, but Fox's is still existent so I restate 55:45. Please correct me if I made any mistakes or failed to bring up another point. All of my claims I am sure have been taken from the evidence of previous discussion.

TOMORROW IS NEW YEAR'S EVE!

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i think you got all of them Light.

 

[Galanoth7395]

So, are we agreeing with:

A.)60:40
B.)55:45

 

[JigglyZelda003]

i still feel its 60:40, but 55:45 is fine too seeing as its not that bad of a match for CF. i guess popular vote is gonna win the matchup numbers this time. lol

 

[M@v]

60:40 it is.
As we leave Falcon, here is something for your viewing pleasure:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EL88a0jP6ZE&feature=channel_page

next up:
SONIC

I propose 60:40? Also, I had some really good sonic matches in my tourney. Check my video thread for them.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

Sonic is the most annoying piece of **** that ever ran around the earth!!!!!

/rant

and j/k Sonic mains i just needed to rant a little cause the sonic i fought today got on my nerves very bad.

anyway Sonic is a fun fight, to me he feels like a smaller faster CF. like Falcon he can close in quick. w/ HA he doesn't even need to dodge the lasers he just shoots tight over them. dair>Utilt works on him too, but he can break out of it with his upB. lately i've seen sonic mains doing the upB Dair thing alot. it can autocancel when done that way, so unless im nearby and plan to chase him after he comes down i might just shoot at him a bit. i like fighting him on the ground more cause hie air game is good. Sonics grab game is also good and his uThrow>upB>Uair has caught me a few times.

recovery wise its hard to gimp Sonic thanks to how high is upB goes and his HA. if your fighting a lazy sonic its possible to grab release him like snake, but that doesn't happen often. after using his upB he can't use B moves anymore though just airdodge and attack. on the other end i've never been gimped by a Sonic so i don't feel its that hard to recovery if you vary your recovery right.

staying calm is very important. i feel its about 60:40 Fox, maybe even, or 55:45 Fox. since Sonic doesn't lack in priority as much as Falcon and is faster.

im gonna go invite the Sonics over so they can spam us w/ Info lol

 

[RPK]

..Upsmash kills sonic. And by that I mean, you upsmash should beat out a bunch of his spin attempts. He comes right at you, up smash. Dash attacks you, upsmash. And upsmash out of shield too.

 

[Browny]

thats the best way to win... stale your best KO option while leaving yourself wide open every time sonic cancels an approach

join dates ftw!

 

[MrEh]

If Sonic's constantly coming at you head on with Spin Dashes, that that Sonic sucks.

Sonic can fake out his spin dashes like you wouldn't believe.

 

[Lightning93]

I saw a really good Sonic at the last tournament I went to. I didn't see so much of his playstyle, but if it's a good Sonic they can use their speed and dash cancels into so many mindgames, you do really have to keep a good mind. Plant your feet and make sure when you approach you can keep Sonic in one place. In the air his aerials can be a problem, but at least his horizontal movement is a bit limited. Just be careful of his other specials.

 

[gantrain05]

good thing about the sonic matchup is that with sonic, he can fake out alot of opponents, but fox will be able to keep up with him in speed, this is a matchup where mindgames win it imo, they will both have a hard time approaching each other due to the sheer evasiveness of both characters, although i do think fox racks up damage and kills alot easier than sonic, however sonics recovery > fox's recovery. im really unsure about this matchup as it could swing either way quickly, theres going to be alot of momentum shifts, but just because of fox's damage racking, and k.o. power, im gonna have to say 60-40 fox.

 

[Zhamy]

Sonic is just an annoying little *****. Seriously, if he was just a tad slower, Fox would run all over him. I hate playing against Sonic as any character because he's just so annoying.

60:40 Fox, leaning toward 65:35.

 

[ROOOOY!]

35:65? Pfft. Way to state reasons Zhamy. That scale an advantage just because Sonic is a bad character, huh?

I'd settle for 45:55, probably 40:60 Fox's favour at worst, we put the latter on our own match-up chart. It's just Fox is too fast up close, and he's going to be killing earlier, by conventional means anyway. Sonic won't get gimped, he's got loads of options for recovery in HA (which sucks btw), Spring, spindash -> jump, spinshot etc. all of which are safe, especially against a character who is a little unsafe of the stage himself like Fox.

No good Sonic's Spring -> dair, btw.

 

[Leafplayer452]

I have problems fighting Sonics, the spin dash into Sonic spring always get me. Then they mindgame me into a Bair T_T

 

[Zhamy]

35:65? Pfft. Way to state reasons Zhamy. That scale an advantage just because Sonic is a bad character, huh?

Nah, I was busy yesterday, and posting numbers that seem slightly ludicrous brings people to argue about it. Like you. <3

Sonic is just plain annoying, and Fox has to stay close to him. Basically, laser camping is "LOL" effectiveness, so it's going to be approaching games for the win.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

yeah Fox might as well toss his blaster on the ground cause unless hes recovering w/ UpB the chances of getting more that 2 shots in on a non sleeping Sonic are 2/9000.

 

[-Mars-]

..Upsmash kills sonic. And by that I mean, you upsmash should beat out a bunch of his spin attempts. He comes right at you, up smash. Dash attacks you, upsmash. And upsmash out of shield too.

Wtf? Why don't you just spam SH nairs when he's sitting there charging up his spindash? In fact SH any aerial instead of wasting your usmash...you can't just refresh it with lasers in this matchup.

 

[Lightning93]

Also, it would seem Fox does have a great advantage in his ability to combo, Sonic can usually chain attacks due to his speed, but with Fox this aspect levels out a bit. Fox can't cancel out his attacks like the mindgames of Sonic's, although this is where FLAMEDASH comes in. I say 60:40, also due to the fact that Fox has more reliable kill moves.

 

[Xiivi]

Sonic is very good at juggling Fox at low percents with downtilts or just using up-throw (better than normal). Sonic gets out of any up-tilt juggles easily thanks to spring. Sonic's grab game and tilts really help a lot in this match for him.

Fox's nair becomes amazing in this match, and he doesn't lose much except the ability to link more than two moves together which isn't too much of a big deal. Upsmash will get you a kill at 104% gauranteed with Sonic DIing. 93% with no DI.

Sonic's got plenty of good stuff in this match-up. Fox however is able to deal with it for once. Edgeguarding games against Sonic are fun.

From my experience, since I've played against Sonic enough (and vice versa), I can safely say this is 60:40 Fox's favour, 55:45 if you don't know how to handle down-throw.

 

[Kinzer]

Supid forum crashed yesterday and I couldn't get this out of the way before, so it mgiht be outdated slightly but...

/rant

Anyway Sonic is a fun fight, to me he feels like a smaller faster CF. like Falcon he can close in quick. w/ HA he doesn't even need to dodge the lasers he just shoots tight over them. dair>Utilt works on him too, but he can break out of it with his upB. lately i've seen sonic mains doing the upB Dair thing alot. it can autocancel when done that way, so unless im nearby and plan to chase him after he comes down i might just shoot at him a bit. i like fighting him on the ground more cause hie air game is good. Sonics grab game is also good and his uThrow>upB>Uair has caught me a few times.

recovery wise its hard to gimp Sonic thanks to how high is upB goes and his HA. if your fighting a lazy sonic its possible to grab release him like snake, but that doesn't happen often. after using his upB he can't use B moves anymore though just airdodge and attack. on the other end i've never been gimped by a Sonic so i don't feel its that hard to recovery if you vary your recovery right. Staying calm is important.

NP.

The sonic you fight obviously can't switch it up, we won't always Dair after a Spring.

Have you yet to fight a Sonic that will attempt to offstage Dair you out of your phantasm yet? If your recovery is flawed in any way possible, you can no doubt bet that Sonic will be going to try to gimp K.O. you because it's much easier than just outright killing you.

Next points will be addressed in next reponse.

good thing about the sonic matchup is that with sonic, he can fake out alot of opponents, but fox will be able to keep up with him in speed, this is a matchup where mindgames win it imo, they will both have a hard time approaching each other due to the sheer evasiveness of both characters, although i do think fox racks up damage and kills alot easier than sonic, however sonics recovery > fox's recovery. im really unsure about this matchup as it could swing either way quickly, theres going to be alot of momentum shifts, but just because of fox's damage racking, and k.o. power, im gonna have to say 60-40 fox.

Pay attention to the bolded/italisized parts... if that's true, what kind of logic am I missing that still would push for a solid advantage for Fox? I would argue for 55:45 at worst, but 6:4 was so 2-4 months ago, and I would see this matchup as dead even. How will Fox rack up damage and kill better than Sonic? MAYBE Fox can kill better just because he has more options, but what's Fox going to do to rack-up damage, Dair to whatever? That is very easy to see coming with an aerial approach (assuming you're the one doing it), and even if we happen to get caught into UTilt combos, we will Spring out of it as mentioned before. Lazers... dear God I hope you weren't going to suggest this, because Sonic has the speed to just rush in head on to you if they feel like, but of course there are much more ways to work around this and not take any damage from it at the small cost of a slight loss of speed, which for Sonic is still fast.

You know what, this is almost perfect timing, I wanted to eventually go over this matchup myself anyway, because I wasn't around the first time when Sonic/Fox was talked about, but IMO needs some fixing. Even if it might only be Wi-Fi, those of you who won't agree with me that it is an even matchup are free to challenge my Sonic (I'll warn I'm no pushover though).

 

[M@v]

if you dont know, you can tech sonic's dthrow and punish him every time.

 

[gantrain05]

as for damage racking, yes, there are the Dair combos Dair > Utilt/grab/jab/Dsmash etc, also, fox can Fair sonic out of all of his arial approaches, and with that connecting thats alot of damage, and really, i rarely start a Dair combo on sonic when he's grounded, usually if he's using one of his spindash approaches if you Dair him out of it from the air at high enough percents he'll hit the ground and kind of "trip" when he hits the ground leaving him open for a Dsmash/Usmash. i believe fox just has better options for damage racking and killing, thats the reason i give him the advantage. fox racks up damage faster and kills earlier than sonic, its no secret sonic has a severe lack of kill moves.

 

[Kinzer]

Bair will outprioritize most things when spaced... there is a thing called RAR... >.>

 

[gantrain05]

Bair will outprioritize most things when spaced... there is a thing called RAR... >.>

yes i know, but with the huge lingering hitbox of Fair, and it also has very good priority, i'm not exactly sure what would happen if the two collide, but fox's Fair actually beat out most of peach's arials except for her bair, which have alot more priority than sonics.

 

[Kinzer]

Priority is such a term that is always blown out of proportion... for one thing, Peach's Fair might be able to trade hits if timed... Dair has no hitbox on her front or bac, so of course Fox will beat that out, same thing with her Uair... and I'm not sure about her Nair, but I think it can trade hits or something...

No Sonic is going to be Using Nair to try and combat you aerially, Fair will admitingly be beat, Uair *****, and Dair... well you'd be stupid to try and fight that with Fair, rather use other methods.

This ain't March/April where Sonic did have a problem with priority. Sonic mains have learned to space correctly.

 

[RPK]

Well, keep in mind, all it takes is 9 moves in total to bring upsmash back to its full power which is 105% Thats right, moves start at 105%, not 100. Anyways, to fully refresh a move back, just do 9 moves other then upsmash...So for example, Dair, jab, grab, hit twice, forward throw. Thats already 5 moves. In addition we still have Bair as a decent kill option. Plus, I just remember Lucien saying something about punishing a spin dash with an upsmash...Or something to that extent...

 

[Kinzer]

A SpinDash Roll can clank with Fox' USmash... at least going off experience it does.

 

[Veggi]

Even if it might only be Wi-Fi, those of you who won't agree with me that it is an even matchup are free to challenge my Sonic (I'll warn I'm no pushover though).

I'll play. Not because I have any opinion on this match-up, but I've never played against a Sonic before with my Fox.

 

[JigglyZelda003]

ity should be a fast paced fight Veggi lol

 

[Veggi]

Yeah, I'll have to dtilt quickly.

Spoiler

jk

If that doesn't work I can just FLAMEDASH!!

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

If that doesn't work I can just FLAMEDASH!!

ROFLMFAO!!! Flamedash is too good.

 

[Zhamy]

Well, keep in mind, all it takes is 9 moves in total to bring upsmash back to its full power which is 105% Thats right, moves start at 105%, not 100. Anyways, to fully refresh a move back, just do 9 moves other then upsmash...So for example, Dair, jab, grab, hit twice, forward throw. Thats already 5 moves. In addition we still have Bair as a decent kill option. Plus, I just remember Lucien saying something about punishing a spin dash with an upsmash...Or something to that extent...

Actually, it goes to 100%, not to 105% after 9 moves, IIRC. Unless I read Colin's research incorrectly.

Also, spindash does clank with Usmash, but only sometimes...is there a weak hitbox for spindash or something? I was trying it out, and Usmash won out quite a few times, and other times, it clanked.

 

[Veggi]

Well I know the piece of the spindash that jumps has lots of priority.

 

[Kinzer]

USmash might clank with SDR just because both moves have been used the same amount of time and have the same decay. Usually you can hit Sonic out of his SDR just because most of the N00by Sonic's will be constantly using this move and it will always be decayed.

Also for that one person who wanted to fight me, feel free to send me a visitor/private message, I'll always answer the instant I see a new alert.

Also Xiivi has a Sonic icon, we are stealing your modz.

 

[NeverKnowsBest]

The Fox/Sonic match-up is a straight up game of punishment. That's basically it. Watch the Spin canceling, and the grab tech chases. I remember Tenki punishing me so hard a while back.