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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Yeah, I don't know how charging smashes works exactly, but I get the impression that some lasers + a bit of charging is the best.

@ palpi: looks like the results are up now

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=306393
damn, I wish I could've went. If I didn't meet up with vanz in the bracket (or if I just played half decently), then I would've gotten 2nd probably (that's kinda cocky, but meh).

Also, I got 2nd at some random tourney yesterday. There wasn't much competition aside from Idea, and Riddlebox I guess.

I lost to Raynex in winners finals 3-0, then lost to him in GFs 3-2. I had fun with it.

Matchs aren't up yet, though they're gonna be camera quality sadly.

Also another tourney is coming up in mississauga next weekend, but I dunno if there'll be anyone going. Looks like IB and KK are out, but we'll see.

Yes sir. Sadly, the R button on it sticks on occasion. Makes me wanna cry.

Also, yes I will probably be going all Fox at Genesis. There are a feewww situations where I might bust out my Falco if I'm feeling confident, but we'll have to see. After Genesis, I'm planning to get back to Falco, but after choking against Jman at Zenith I figured it'd be a bad idea to fly all the way out to Cali and use Falco and possibly get *****. =/
I have a chance to get a new black or purple controller + cube for $25, but I owe IB money (because he sold me his dazzle last week), so I have to buy him one first. I don't think I'll have enough to get one for myself, though I want one really badly.

Speaking of dazzle, now I can finally record stuff on my own.
 

Brookman

Smash Hero
Joined
Oct 20, 2005
Messages
6,202
Location
pikachu
in that last match where you he whiffed rest and you laser>laser>etc. . . .


rather than charge up smash use falling up air > up air or maybe up tilt > up air. I know he's solid at the SDI but in a situation where you're not gona kill with up smash any way.


maybe drill> up tilt> up air for damage, drill >grab> up throw . . .


you looked like you played well vs. him, for the most part.
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
5,714
Location
Yardley, Pennsylvania
I have heard some people prefer to not laser at around 80% because it gets harder to uthrow uair. And you can resume lasering if jiggs gets above that. I think swift said that during jman vs hbox.

:phone:
 

Cyrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
969
Location
Midlothian, VA
Lmfao. People giving me **** because I lost to someone unexpected at a tournament where I was experimenting with Falco doesn't bother me at all. Going from 13th at Apex to mere inches away from being amongst the top 8 at *Pound* 5 speaks for itself, I think. =P Whether or not I can repeat that performance at Genesis, however, is yet to be seen. =O

Besides, my Falco beat Kage in a MM at Zenith ^_~
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
5,714
Location
Yardley, Pennsylvania
As much as it means to beat kage, you still have to remember you are fighting...Ganon ;)

I think Kage is just poking fun at you calling "someone" random, not doubting your skill in any way.

go **** at Genesis, west coast is ballz!
 

Cyrain

Smash Ace
Joined
Jul 22, 2006
Messages
969
Location
Midlothian, VA
hahaha yea fair enough. He was random to me, anyway. I don't often get surprised by new people anymore. Really, though, the fact that I wanted so badly to go fox vs. Jman and Jesiah so i could **** him was a pretty clear indication that my falco wasn't ready for tourney. I'm planning to team with Chillin at Apex as (my falco, his fox) so after Genesis I'll be right back on the Falco grind.

And yea, I'll **** em as hard as I can hahaha
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
Yes sir. Sadly, the R button on it sticks on occasion. Makes me wanna cry.
thats just the newness of the controller. I had the same problem when i broke in a new one a few months ago. It would lightsheild after l cancels and totally mess up my rhythm lol

it'll go away

I have heard some people prefer to not laser at around 80% because it gets harder to uthrow uair. And you can resume lasering if jiggs gets above that. I think swift said that during jman vs hbox.

:phone:
huh? at around 80%, a few lasers to a charged upsmash on a missed rest is a free kill on any map.

unless you mean when its in te nutral position. ya, I stop shooting lasers at around 60-80 and fish for grabs/upsmash and then resume lasers after that because upthrow upair gets tougher

edit: that first kill with the dair->uptilt was so baller redd. didnt see that coming at all. i cant believe you missed the di on that upthrow tho, he even hesitated ~_^
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
5,714
Location
Yardley, Pennsylvania
Yeah, I didn't mean when a missed rest happens..I meant just so you don't push him over the percent where you can't uthrow -> uair anymore. Obviously you shouldn't only go for u-throw -> uair though.
 

JPOBS

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2007
Messages
5,821
Location
Mos Eisley
Ya true.

Yo redd at the end of the second match, I think you should have put your back to him and fish for bairs instead of trying to nair. You guys traded hits like 3 times and if any of those have been a bair you would have won. next time!
 

Redd

thataintfalco.com
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
4,102
Location
Richmond, Virginia
Ya true.

Yo redd at the end of the second match, I think you should have put your back to him and fish for bairs instead of trying to nair. You guys traded hits like 3 times and if any of those have been a bair you would have won. next time!
For sure.. I got sloppier as the day went on. I learned tooooo much from HOPE, next time I'm going to cut the dumb **** out.
 

Sinji

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 27, 2010
Messages
3,370
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Brooklyn New York
NNID
Sinjis
3DS FC
0361-6602-9839
thats just the newness of the controller. I had the same problem when i broke in a new one a few months ago. It would lightsheild after l cancels and totally mess up my rhythm lol

it'll go away
I got nervous a while ago cause im getting a white controller next week.
 

Redd

thataintfalco.com
BRoomer
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
4,102
Location
Richmond, Virginia
You surprised me a lot Redd. You going to Genesis?
Thanks! I don't think so... kinda in a rough spot financially, not sure if I can justify dropping 500 for tickets right now.

I REALLYYYYYY want to though. Maybe I'll get lucky.
 

unknown522

Some guy
Joined
Aug 17, 2005
Messages
8,047
Location
Toronto, Ontario
Someone help me vs. Jiggs, I still don't feel exceptionally confident. >_<

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KJtg1g9sWio
can't really say much. You probably did better than I probably would've (well if he let me have FD too then I dunno).

Ya true.

Yo redd at the end of the second match, I think you should have put your back to him and fish for bairs instead of trying to nair. You guys traded hits like 3 times and if any of those have been a bair you would have won. next time!
a good plan. Still, I don't think Hbox only approached him because his back wasn't turned.

I could always be wrong though.

Also, lol I was playing Kyle (Idea) at a tourney yesterday, and I 0-death combo'd him off of a missed rest in Loser's finals. Triple u-air, lol. Also, those sets were a reminder to how gay jigg's priority is. Her hitboxes make no sense sometimes.

Also, after playing with weon-x today...man marth pisses me off. Well, at least it's fun though.
 

ArcNatural

Banned ( ∫x, δx Points)
Joined
Jul 19, 2006
Messages
2,964
Location
Boston, MA
Yes sir. Sadly, the R button on it sticks on occasion. Makes me wanna cry.

Also, yes I will probably be going all Fox at Genesis. There are a feewww situations where I might bust out my Falco if I'm feeling confident, but we'll have to see. After Genesis, I'm planning to get back to Falco, but after choking against Jman at Zenith I figured it'd be a bad idea to fly all the way out to Cali and use Falco and possibly get *****. =/
If your having that issue where you're trying to press the R trigger down and it get's stuck before you can depress it fully, just replace the back with any other color (you can keep new shoulder triggers). The white controllers have an issue where unless you press the shoulder buttons in the center (ie the middle of the depression) they get caught somehow.
 

Palpi

Smash Hero
Joined
Jun 26, 2008
Messages
5,714
Location
Yardley, Pennsylvania
In the falcon matches, it seemed like you over committed to some of your shine->aerial (instant ) combos. Some times you would go for a shine bair when they are shielding and they would shield your shine and you would whiff a bair. When not doing a shine bair oos or within a combo, I would waveband on the platform, and if the shine ends up hitting you can still continue the combo.

Also, you could've combod the falcon a little better at early percents. You don't have to full hop dair on falcon until about 30% after a shine. Shine->sh dair works better. Your movement with fox as I remember is a lot smoother than your falco, I don't really know why, but I got a robotic feel from watching your falco.

Falco is probably my best match up, I'll look at those later.

:phone:
 

Druggedfox

Smash Champion
Joined
May 13, 2007
Messages
2,665
Location
Atlanta
Redd:

Game 1:

In the first 25 or so seconds you get him off the stage around 3-4 times; every single time, you give up almost complete stage control and let him get back. I'm not saying you should be jumping off stage and doing risky edgeguards, but puff can't really do much in terms of getting back to the stage with fox's bair in the way. When he comes up from the edge, look for trades: upsmash trade with bair/fair/nair, bair trade, and uptilt (which I didn't see you use the entire set, but works similar to bair in the sense of abusing high priority etc).

After you come back down from dying, you shoot some lasers kind of arbitrarily; be more aware of where jiggs is. You full jump laser straight into hbox's nair >_> This was sort of something that was evident throughout the entire set... you're not really paying attention to where jiggs is when picking your moves. This is true with lasers, some of your full jump nairs, to name a few. I'll point out other instances as they come up.

At 0:40 hbox pounds you; make it completely routine in this matchup to abuse jiggs slow speed when teching. Had you teched left/back hbox would have had 0 chance of following it up. Teching back towards the middle, on the other hand, gave hbox the chance to hit you (but he messed up, luckily). Immediately afterwards, look at your move choice: upair slightly in front of jiggs --> jab her shield. I'm not sure if you meant to go farther to the right with the upair, but either way the risk/reward is pretty bad on that. Upair can be beaten out with any priority from below (had you meant to move farther right), and lacks a good horizontal hitbox. Not say falling upair shouldn't be used, but in a situation where you could die from any one hit (grab/uptilt etc) you really don't want to put yourself in the ideal position to be hit by those things. After you whiff, you jab his shield, then run straight into him (probably for a grab?). Once again, awful risk/reward; to keep the upair safe you probably could have buffered a roll backwards (which I find amazingly useful vs. puff in general, to keep things safe without pushing forward), then after the jab you could have not moved forward, which I’m 90% sure I saw fox do... though I could be wrong. The upair thing is also a matter of not wanting to stay on the same horizontal (or vertical for that matter, though that’s not applicable here) plane as jigglypuff; it's good practice to try to avoid that, as that's where her she shines in the air, and on the ground it means you can get grabbed >_>

Game 2:

Lasers at the beginning are fine, but you're unaware of hbox's AC nair towards you immediately at the beginning and run into it (either that, or it was a mistimed punish of it). If you meant to punish, good job seeing it; it at least seemed like you ran into it though, so I'll have to say that was easily a free upthrow-->anything.

At 1:08 I see what you were going for with the dash attack, but a turn around uptilt or an upsmash would have been better. You honestly even could have shined, and gone for a followup from there (the shine would easily have the potential to lead into a grab --> uair). Uh, watch your DI on the rest as well. I think m2k always claims its 12% from the middle of FD that you can't live an upthrow rest, and you were a bit to the side, so I'm going to assume you could have survived. If you couldn't have, or don't think you can, you should simply commit to DI'ing down+away and getting back asap; it’s definitely something you should constantly be aware of, so that you can react appropriately to getting rested and know whether to try to live or punish.

At 1:22 you go for another falling upair; this is another case of needing to pay more attention to hbox. Had you been aware that he hadn't stayed in place (a good jiggs like hbox definitely will avoid staying grounded, particularly in his shield, in one place at any cost) for the upair, you could have baired which would likely have led to a grab or something else useful. Immediately afterwards, you laser while hbox is in relatively close proximity. It wasn't quite in punishable range, but fox definitely has the ability to play the close up game vs. jiggs; there's no reason you should be lasering unless hbox is clearly around half the stage or more away. It's just too risky to do otherwise, not to mention it'll force awareness of what sort of "mode" you should be going into. Lasers are a nice tool to tack on extra %, and to force jiggs to approach; from seeing you laser, I get the sense that you're doing it just because it’s one of those things that fox is supposed to do in the matchup but you're not really sure of where/how.

When you get upthrow, you DI behind him; I can't remember for certain (it's been too long since I’ve fought puff) but I want to say DI'ing in front of puff on her upthrow is harder for her to follow up. That's something worth testing out, but I'm somewhat confident in saying that it is indeed the case. Regardless, after you finally get out of all the followups etc, you end up shielding around 1:30. WD OoS is a very strong tool, defensively, particularly vs. jiggs. You probably could have WD'd back and immediately escaped, rather than staying in long enough for hbox to call a jump OoS with a bair.

When you side-b back to the stage, and you spot dodge after landing, you could have shined afterwards. I think you could have shined before hbox's jab, but you certainly could have CC shined his jab afterwards. 1:35 you start shooting lasers again; against jiggs you should almost always be full hop triple lasering. Because you should force yourself to only laser when jiggs is a minimum distance away, you're guaranteeing that full hop triple lasers will never be punishable (so the issue of full jump being unsafe while short hop is easy to move around with is gone) and you will be hitting jiggs far more often. Jiggs isn't going to approach by running; she's going to be in the air. Even if full hop triple laser isn't the standard you're using for the matchup, you should have paid more attention to hbox; you can *see* him jumping over them, but you just keep shooting SHLs.

At 1:51 you full jump nair at him... for unknown reasons hbox decides to just sit there and shield. He could have easily punished it by WD'ing out of the way-->jiggs nonsense. I point this out just because it’s another example of needing to be more aware of jiggs position. Full hop nair is good to catch jiggs while she's doing a move (like bair or something) and you can fall on top of her as she's already committed to the aerial. When jiggs is grounded, fox has very little reason to commit to anything like full hop nair directly where she's standing. It's okay to approach, but in those types of situations it’s better to go with something like full jumping a bit *past* them and using a bair or something; essentially the idea would be to put out an aerial so that they can't simply WD backwards-->grab, because you're covering the WD back, and hitting their current location. Not to mention bair is also way better in this matchup in general.

At 2:04... drop shield, walk forward, jab??? I mean, I understand it was a difficult situation, and hbox could have potentially read any option you chose to escape the corner... but I do have to say that I don't think walk forward jab was the best choice >_>

The next sequence you hit hbox a lot xD While that's great, you should look for kill setups more often vs. jiggs: between 2:17 and 2:23 hbox uses falling nair *twice*. The first time you're too busy shooting lasers to notice, and the second time you bair it (which is a bit more understandable). Either way, jiggs is roughly in kill % for upthrow uair around what... 55% on FD (arbitrary approximation). You could have almost certainly have landed a kill during that sequence, rather than just putting him at 73%.

After that sequence and you bair him off, once again you give him the *entire* stage to come back to. Not only that, but afterwards you approach with a full jump nair while hbox sits there shielding, once again. I'm not saying you shouldn't have done it, but there's really no reason not to bair in that particular situation; be aware of where your opponent is positioned, he was even *behind* you as you fell. At 2:34 hbox shows why full jump nair directly *on top of* jiggs (or anyone in any matchup, really) isn't that great an idea. As I said, there's nothing wrong with approaching like that, but you don't want to be directly on the same horizontal or vertical plane as jiggs.

2:37 cried aloud for an upsmash OoS T_T

2:48: nair turn around jab? Once again, uptilt would have been great there.

Andddd last stock you finally switch over to full hop triple lasers, but once again you're unaware of how he's moving around the lasers, or his positioning relative to you. Not only do you literally miss every single laser, but you also don't do what I recommended earlier about switching modes when jiggs gets X distance away from you. You end up lasering too close, and getting essentially 0-deathed, but hbox messes up again.

When he misses the rest, a few less lasers and an earlier charged upsmash probably could have won it for you.

At 3:13 you trade with his fair using your nair. Go for upsmash for trades if jiggs is falling at you with an aerial, and is at kill %. Right afterwards hbox does another falling nair that you don't really notice, that could have led to his death.

At 3:22 we get the whole full hop nair at him situation again. For the third out of 4 times this match, he shields. Not only could have you positioned yourself not directly on top of him (just in case, as I've explained) but you also could be watching for this by the 4th time it happens. If you committed with your jump a bit later, you could have noticed how he's shielding in response to that general spacing as much as he's shielding in response to your jump; that could have easily been abused, perhaps as directly as grabbing him, perhaps something a bit less direct. Either way, hbox could have died.

Not too long afterwards, another full hop nair (which gets punished by falling uair again). If you'd caught on, you might have been able to punish it somehow. You also keep jabbing his shield every time you land behind it (in the above paragraph where you naired his shield, you also jabbed it); at first that’s fine, but now you should have switched it up to either immediately grabbing, shine grabbing, calling a WD OoS/roll... anything, really.

At 3:35 you give up complete stage control once again, and you can watch in slow motion as for the 5th or 6th time hbox randomly falling nairs to accomplish essentially nothing. At 3:40 you try to hit his nair but you're a bit too slow; once again, if you're trying to hit puff out of stuff, just upsmash it. You could also probably abuse crouching to make yourself harder to hit/dodge the aerial before doing so. 3:46, another falling nair; the random laser you shot probably wasn't going to do much when jiggs was at around 150 anyway, not to mention it’s another instance of giving up stage control, rather than keeping at least a bit of pressure on.

Unfortunate SD at the end, you definitely could have won that match =/

Everything I said is based on what you actually *did* in these matches, so here are a couple things to add to your play vs. jiggs:

More bair, more uptilt. Fox can abuse priority like crazy in this matchup too, not just jiggs. I also think a bit more platform camping would be useful; don't necessarily just run away on them, but they can be useful for mobility, and coming down from angles that jiggs can't do much about. Did I mention bair and uptilt? Sooooooo good. CC'ing is amazing in this matchup, which is something pretty much no one abuses. You can CC half her stuff at low %s and get followups; remember, if you take 10% and give her 10% back, she's 1/5 dead already. Go for grabs/dash dance a bit more; every time you grab her she's 1/3 of the way to dying...how cheap. Don't *just* fish for grab setups around kill %, but you could do a bit more of it. Jiggs shouldn't be living to high % every single stock. Grab the edge a bit more and do some ledge hop bairs; full hop bair near the edge. Edgeguarding can be good. I mentioned giving up stage control being a bad idea, but I didn't really emphasize that edgeguarding can get you those earlier kills, simply by nature of being closer to the blastzone when you hit her.

There's probably more I've forgotten, but oh well; hope this helps you (and anyone else who isn’t ****** jiggs for being bad yet =D)
 
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