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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

BTmoney

a l l b e c o m e $
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Hey Fox boards I'm recently getting into this character and I'd like to watch some videos of players with different styles but I don't really know too many by name. If somebody could make a list of high level Foxes with the top of the list being super aggressive and the bottom being as slow paced as possible I'd appreciate it.
As for the slow paced:

I am a huge fan of M2k's fox. It is slept on (if I recall he beat Javi in fox ditto friendlies either once or multiple times). I think he plays the character the most lame and also the most effective. Lame play styles are the best imo.
I'm not sure how good KK's fox actually is but I also think he plays the character a tad lame, which is good and I remember appreciating his play style although it's been a while since I've watched KK's fox.

I think lovage consistently shows good decision making and is flashier while still staying smart (almost like what mango said about Darkrain's falcon, people think he's hype and flashy but he actually plays the game quite "lame"). I wouldn't call him slow paced but he abuses his character well as all Fox players should.
 

unknown522

Some guy
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Aug 17, 2005
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Toronto, Ontario
yeah, there's no way you can miss out on M2K's fox.

Also yeah, SilentWolf is definitely someone to look at.

Raynex, but he doesn't have that much recent footage. I think one of his sets with Armada is on Youtube.

KirbyKaze's fox. But again, no recent footage I think.

weon-x has a pretty good punishment game. So if you can find vids of him. He's really solid at tech chasing
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
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Oct 4, 2009
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how do you guys approach platforms?

I'm still too bad to make some of PP's advice a reality, so maybe you guys will give me some more grounded things to work on first LOL
 

omgwtfToph

Smash Master
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May 28, 2008
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What do you mean by that question?

Like "how do you think of platforms in general?" Or literally "how do you approach an opponent on a platform?"
 

Bones0

Smash Legend
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What do you mean by that question?

Like "how do you think of platforms in general?" Or literally "how do you approach an opponent on a platform?"
I was confused by that, and even more so by the second part. I can't tell whether he literally means "grounded things" to do vs. opponents on platforms, or if he's just talking about more basic strategies as opposed to complex ones...
 

Bl@ckChris

Smash Hero
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moreso how do you think of platforms in general.

it's odd to me, because being above people is generally not a great place to be in this game, as upward priority tends to be stronger than downward priority, yet, top platform camping is a rather strong tactic as fox. the way we control space through dash dancing is fairly obvious, albeit complicated and layered, but how do you guys think of platforms in the movement, control, and punishment game?
 

EWC

Smash Ace
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Feb 25, 2008
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norcal
moreso how do you think of platforms in general.

it's odd to me, because being above people is generally not a great place to be in this game, as upward priority tends to be stronger than downward priority, yet, top platform camping is a rather strong tactic as fox. the way we control space through dash dancing is fairly obvious, albeit complicated and layered, but how do you guys think of platforms in the movement, control, and punishment game?
Being on a platform isn't really a great way to attack directly, because of the general lack of priority from above. It's useful because it makes it possible to attack from a greater variety of angles, and because it just gives you more general movement options. Also really significant is that, if your opponent is not directly below you on a side platform (so let's say you're in a dash dance war and you jump up), then they generally can't hit you unless they jump forward. And jumping forward is a really big commitment in neutral. You can probably use this to control the pace of the match pretty nicely.


So what hasnt been done yet? Combo wise?
One fairly unexplored combo type thingy is edgecancel waveshines. If you do a wavedash/waveland towards a ledge while facing it and you stop holding forward, then you will go into a teeter. Normally a wavedash has 10 frames of lag, but if you do this you can get a lot less (the exact amount depends on how far you do the wavedash from). This is quite useful as a general movement trick (good for tight platform tech chases for example), but there's also some pretty wacky combos you can do.

Basically this lets you do any ground move instantly out of shine. So, for example, it should be possible to do running shine->edgecancel wavedash->reverse uptilt and have it connect the same way a shine JC upsmash does. I was trying to do this a while ago, and it's really friggin hard.

Should be a lot of room for creative applications though. I'm sure this is known at least a little bit, but I've never seen it in videos outside of TAS stuff so it's not as widely known as it could be.


While on the topic of impractical combos that I find cool, I really like shine on an airbourne opponent into stuff that hits them before they land. The classic examples are obviously shine->aerial and also like shine->waveland bair. A really cute one I like a lot is the following chain on falcon at zero:

upthrow -> waveshine -> move

where move can be any fast ground move which hits them before they land. I can get this to register consecutive hits in training mode with jab, shine and dtilt, and I'm pretty sure that it can also work with upsmash, reverse uptilt and grab (!).

This can probably also be combined with the first one to get a lot of wacky things.


does the shortest illusion have a hit box?
I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I tested this a while ago but I might be remembering wrong.
 

Rocketpowerchill

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Jarretsville md
approaching marths and shieks at start of a match that are looking for that first grab?
i usually approach with nair shine, wait for a grab, or platform chill
what should I be doing to gain momentum on the first stock cuz thats a game changer imo
 

4 Aces

Smash Ace
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Messages
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Being on a platform isn't really a great way to attack directly, because of the general lack of priority from above. It's useful because it makes it possible to attack from a greater variety of angles, and because it just gives you more general movement options. Also really significant is that, if your opponent is not directly below you on a side platform (so let's say you're in a dash dance war and you jump up), then they generally can't hit you unless they jump forward. And jumping forward is a really big commitment in neutral. You can probably use this to control the pace of the match pretty nicely.




One fairly unexplored combo type thingy is edgecancel waveshines. If you do a wavedash/waveland towards a ledge while facing it and you stop holding forward, then you will go into a teeter. Normally a wavedash has 10 frames of lag, but if you do this you can get a lot less (the exact amount depends on how far you do the wavedash from). This is quite useful as a general movement trick (good for tight platform tech chases for example), but there's also some pretty wacky combos you can do.

Basically this lets you do any ground move instantly out of shine. So, for example, it should be possible to do running shine->edgecancel wavedash->reverse uptilt and have it connect the same way a shine JC upsmash does. I was trying to do this a while ago, and it's really friggin hard.

Should be a lot of room for creative applications though. I'm sure this is known at least a little bit, but I've never seen it in videos outside of TAS stuff so it's not as widely known as it could be.


While on the topic of impractical combos that I find cool, I really like shine on an airbourne opponent into stuff that hits them before they land. The classic examples are obviously shine->aerial and also like shine->waveland bair. A really cute one I like a lot is the following chain on falcon at zero:

upthrow -> waveshine -> move

where move can be any fast ground move which hits them before they land. I can get this to register consecutive hits in training mode with jab, shine and dtilt, and I'm pretty sure that it can also work with upsmash, reverse uptilt and grab (!).

This can probably also be combined with the first one to get a lot of wacky things.




I'm pretty sure it doesn't. I tested this a while ago but I might be remembering wrong.
I've just always assumed that edgecancel was when you landed on the edge of a platform and slipped off.
 

KirbyKaze

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Fox's platform camping is basically effective because of his option pool in that position relative to most characters' answers to it.

The main thing here is that Fox has useful SH, DJ, and FJ heights in addition to a solid waveland, powerful aerials, the shine, versatile actions out of shield, fast actions out of shield, a fast dash for clearing the platform, retains huge momentum for clearing platforms with dash jumps, and his back air. Not many characters can really contest directly with that mix. Many characters simply lack a cohesive mix of solid multi-hit aerials, speed, enormous hitbox aerials, flexible projectiles, multiple jumps, lasers, or float that enable them to engage the numerous options that a platform camper can engage in. The strategy itself is basically an abuse of Fox's physics being much better than his opponent's. If you want to see something funny, take a stock from your friend's Pichu on BF with Fox to get a 4-3 lead and then lightshield on the top platform. Then wait. It's funny how narrow the game becomes, right?

The mechanics behind the strat are simple; Fox is made mobile by his fast fall, which enables him to use his vertical movement to dodge and remain relatively uncommitted. The fall speed also allows him to hit vulnerable opponents should an opening present itself. Fox's basic goal in this position is usually attrition or to remain safe from an opponent's most dangerous moves; this is especially true if their most dangerous moves are ground attacks (which have limited utility vs platform-centric styles). This is why platform camp is sometimes used vs Doc and ICs (and other characters of their ilk). Because their aerials are pretty mediocre, those characters focus primarily on ground control with their WD movements and quality ground moves. Platform camping plays against this by forcing them to mingle in the air or take long term damage from safer attacks.

However, Fox also dies from one hit and safer attacks usually means bairs and lasers. So I don't find the strategy itself particularly overpowering. At least when I have to engage it with a top tier character, anyway. I don't care about low tiers and their ability to beat something on principle, so I don't really care if Samus can never beat a Sheik that abuses this strategy or whatever. Or if Pichu really can't beat a Fox who's mastered the technique and Fox to a certain degree.



Platforms basically give zones where Fox can wait in the air indefinitely before dropping through, running off, or jumping off with an aerial. Think of it as similar to imitating Peach's float, except there are some tweaks.

Beyond that, for this character they're largely an added layer of evasion or repositioning (defensively speaking). They add spots to trap your opponent when they're coming down from a bunch of launchers, and they even create some interesting tech trap opportunities during combos. They interrupt his FJ aerial approach and do certain timing things to his jump ins. I could go on. In fact, I could literally go on forever with a topic like that though so not gonna say much else about it. Platforms add depth, that's basically it.
 

Bones0

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Fox's platform camping is basically effective because of his option pool in that position relative to most characters' answers to it.

The main thing here is that Fox has useful SH, DJ, and FJ heights in addition to a solid waveland, powerful aerials, the shine, versatile actions out of shield, fast actions out of shield, a fast dash for clearing the platform, retains huge momentum for clearing platforms with dash jumps, and his back air. Not many characters can really contest directly with that mix. Many characters simply lack a cohesive mix of solid multi-hit aerials, speed, enormous hitbox aerials, flexible projectiles, multiple jumps, lasers, or float that enable them to engage the numerous options that a platform camper can engage in. The strategy itself is basically an abuse of Fox's physics being much better than his opponent's. If you want to see something funny, take a stock from your friend's Pichu on BF with Fox to get a 4-3 lead and then lightshield on the top platform. Then wait. It's funny how narrow the game becomes, right?

The mechanics behind the strat are simple; Fox is made mobile by his fast fall, which enables him to use his vertical movement to dodge and remain relatively uncommitted. The fall speed also allows him to hit vulnerable opponents should an opening present itself. Fox's basic goal in this position is usually attrition or to remain safe from an opponent's most dangerous moves; this is especially true if their most dangerous moves are ground attacks (which have limited utility vs platform-centric styles). This is why platform camp is sometimes used vs Doc and ICs (and other characters of their ilk). Because their aerials are pretty mediocre, those characters focus primarily on ground control with their WD movements and quality ground moves. Platform camping plays against this by forcing them to mingle in the air or take long term damage from safer attacks.

However, Fox also dies from one hit and safer attacks usually means bairs and lasers. So I don't find the strategy itself particularly overpowering. At least when I have to engage it with a top tier character, anyway. I don't care about low tiers and their ability to beat something on principle, so I don't really care if Samus can never beat a Sheik that abuses this strategy or whatever. Or if Pichu really can't beat a Fox who's mastered the technique and Fox to a certain degree.



Platforms basically give zones where Fox can wait in the air indefinitely before dropping through, running off, or jumping off with an aerial. Think of it as similar to imitating Peach's float, except there are some tweaks.

Beyond that, for this character they're largely an added layer of evasion or repositioning (defensively speaking). They add spots to trap your opponent when they're coming down from a bunch of launchers, and they even create some interesting tech trap opportunities during combos. They interrupt his FJ aerial approach and do certain timing things to his jump ins. I could go on. In fact, I could literally go on forever with a topic like that though so not gonna say much else about it. Platforms add depth, that's basically it.
Do you think Falco can basically use platforms in a similar fashion? Obviously he's not as fast as Fox in terms of running off, but he has a much better dair and lasers to come down with, so I'd imagine it's even better for him. Should I ever be intentionally going to platforms for easier approaches? Or is it just something to mix in once in a while to beat specific defenses?
 

Ryobeat

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If one of you have the time to answer: Im a peach main trying to train a Fox counter to Puff players. What exactly is the name of the game in this matchup? I understand the punishment game takes a on a major role with Jiggs resting for Fox punishes. Also to look out for the followups into rests/edgeguards of course. My main question is the 2 sides of playing it which is campy or aggressive in the neutral game. I don't really under stand the attacks I should safely throw out and what not.
 

KirbyKaze

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Basically just out-position Puff with your super fast movement and don't get sucked into some fade away or WD back bait that she's gonna try to do all the time.
 

KirbyKaze

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Falco's higher DJ, slower jump, and awkwardly mediocre running speed make him less suited for platform camping abuse. He still obviously has things he can do with them, but those things are more of the byproduct of or complimentary to his conventional fighting style.
 

Tarv

Smash Journeyman
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Outside of Pittsburgh
I apparently become a fox main when I have to pee. Or at least I seem to have played a lot better with him in that brief few minutes while I was waiting for the bathroom to open.
 

Apasher

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What basic Fox players should I watch vids of and take notes from? I feel like if I watch really technical Foxes, I'll just get bodied by trying to do what they do.

I don't want to hear "just improve your techskill" because actually learning how the game works should be top priority for me, considering that I rarely make it out of pools in MI tournaments.
 

KirbyKaze

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What basic Fox players should I watch vids of and take notes from? I feel like if I watch really technical Foxes, I'll just get bodied by trying to do what they do.

I don't want to hear "just improve your techskill" because actually learning how the game works should be top priority for me, considering that I rarely make it out of pools in MI tournaments.
M2K and Jman
 

Tarv

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If you're at all interested here are some Fox mains (or faux fox mains at least) that I think any aspiring Fox main can learn a lot from regardless of whether or not they're technical, simplistic, gimpy, or a hybrid. If nothing else look up their videos and you can hopefully learn something from them. (Some of them are older and don't really play that much anymore):

Mango
SFAT
Mew2king
Jman
Javi
Silent Wolf
Eggm
Lovage
PC Chris
Lucky
Colbol
Leffen
Unknown522
ChillinDude829
Cactuar

I'm sure there are plenty of others out there but these are the one's that come immediately to mind. Take a look for yourself and try to learn something from all of them. Good luck to all you Fox mains to be out there!
 

Loket

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Ive played played melee for about a year and developed pretty solid techskill but still lack general game knowledge.
I have two questions:
When to nair and when to dair with fox?

Is shield pressure really that neccesary when fox get good followups from throws? Why not shinegrab/doubleshinegrab all the time?
 

Pengie

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Ive played played melee for about a year and developed pretty solid techskill but still lack general game knowledge.
I have two questions:
When to nair and when to dair with fox?

Is shield pressure really that neccesary when fox get good followups from throws? Why not shinegrab/doubleshinegrab all the time?
Nair is a good move to use in situations where the opponent can't crouch cancel it (i.e. when they're jumping /already in the air). You can use it in mid to short range to stuff your opponents' attempt to jump because a shffl nair comes out really fast compared to most other characters' moves. You can also use it out of a full jump if the opponent is slightly further away. Full jump nair is also a good air to air move and it leads to pretty consistent follow ups afterwards (most notably up-tilt or up-smash). Another good place to neutral air is when you can get your opponent to shield but you don't necessarily want to grab because it would be too telegraphed. In this situation one of your mix up options is nairing at their shield to set up the shine-grab/nair shine mixup. Another good place to nair is while playing footsies to check your opponent's dash away by overshooting the nair to hit them as they're dashing away from you. You could also use dair to overshoot and catch dashes away but the reduced range makes it not as ideal for doing this.

Dair is a tricky move. In certain matchups (like Falco/Peach/Sheik), dair is amazing if you can react to your opponent's approach and full jump over it because you can come down a fast falled dair which typically leads to a pretty big punish. It's also good if the other person is crouch canceling a lot because you'll still be able to get a full follow-up to the dair if it hits. You have to be careful when doing this though because dair loses to wavedash back pretty hard if you aren't spacing it to cover that option as well. Another caveat when using dair is to be aware of the opponent SDI'ing the hits to make shines whiff. IMO this is the biggest thing that makes dair tricky to use because you can end up getting punished for it pretty badly if you aren't aware of what's going on really quickly; however, IIRC the effects of SDI'ing the drill can be minimized by hitting with only two or three hits of it.

While Fox's shine grab is a ridiculously strong tool once you get in it isn't always a guaranteed grab. Off the top of my head I think it is totally feasible to roll, spotdodge, shield drop, and grab out of the other person's shine grab. Characters that have a jump startup similar to Fox's can also jump out of the shine grab and fox can even shine OoS after the shine hits his shield. As a result of these options being present, it becomes important to mix things up once you get in on your opponent; however if the opponent isn't showing you that they're gonna attempt to get out of shine grabs then feel free to do them until they try to get out of them. As a general rule, I think Fox should always shine grab if the opportunity presents itself until the opponent shows that they can get out of it, at which point you should start considering other alternatives. To answer the question more generally, you're right; shield pressure isn't as central to Fox's game as it is for someone like Falco, but it's still important to have some idea of how to do it because there isn't really a consistent way to get guaranteed grabs so applying shield pressure and knowing how to bait spotdodges/rolls puts your opponent in a mix up as to when they'll eventually get grabbed.
 

omgwtfToph

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^ Great post

The tl;dr for nair vs dair is: drill can't be CC'd, but drill vs. air opponents sucks cuz they can act immediately after getting drilled to the ground. So for example vs. Peach, you generally want to drill them when they're on the ground, and nair them when they're in the air. The caveat to all of this is that it's matchup-dependent; as in some matchups (i.e. Fox dittos, or vs. Falcon) nair is better a lot of the time because move priority becomes more important than nullifying CC options.
 

KirbyKaze

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Ive played played melee for about a year and developed pretty solid techskill but still lack general game knowledge.
I have two questions:
When to nair and when to dair with fox?

Is shield pressure really that neccesary when fox get good followups from throws? Why not shinegrab/doubleshinegrab all the time?
Nair vs dair is basically a series of questions you ask yourself about the foe in the situation:

Is the foe airborne?
Is the foe crouching?
Is the foe shielding?
Is the foe at a percent where nair can knock them over or push them away far enough for it avoid DI-based punishes?
Is the foe proficient at SDI or in a situation where SDI against dair is easy?

And so forth and so on. As a general rule of thumb, dair is weak vs airborne opponents and to some degree shielding ones. Nair is weak against crouching opponents, and when used poorly it's terrible vs shielding ones. Nair is strong in matchups where the opponent likes to jump and for stuffing attacks; dair is good against crouch-happy opponents and for coming down on grounded opponents that have missed you as a result of you going above them (FJ and DJ abuse for life).

You should also learn bair though. Bair is the broken, stupid, overpowered, oh my god I hate this character move.

Now here's the advice you need, even though it's not the advice you asked for. To be honest, in Melee, how you do your attack matters just as much if not more than the actual attack you're using. You can use a lot of attacks interchangeably in this game depending on how you structure your lead in. This is basically how Jman got super far with only using a few attacks, same with Drephen, etc. They understood the ways you can do your move and were able to maximize their proficiency with their favourite moves to frightening degrees. Do I agree with this method of play? No, I definitely think using a large repertoire of attacks is ideal. But the lesson on emphasizing the lead in itself is very valuable too and shouldn't be missed. Think about how you're doing your attack, not just the attack itself. Experiment, ask questions, remember what each attack does on hit, and think about how your hitbox is being positioned in relation to the opponent (and other relevant things) by the type of lead in you're using with with your movement. You'll be amazed at what you find, and how crazy this game actually is.

Now for your question on shield pressure...

Shield pressure is sort of necessary because shine-grab is not a guaranteed link on shield and multishines are not that useful vs a lot of characters except basically at the edge. There's other reasons too, though. The shield pressure games that revolve around aerials, jumps, and shines in conjunction with one another are just more useful for policing certain actions out of shield while remaining relatively safe on the basis of spacing and conditioning (since a lot of shield pressure requires the defender to predict because of how fast things occur). In addition, the periods of cooldown afford the pressuring player windows of reaction and observation to punish incorrect reactions (often caused by predictive plays on the defending player's part, but we already went over that) that speed-intensive TAS-esque multishine style pressure does not afford. That said, I think shine-grab could be used more because it's one of the best tricks in the game. The conditioning to make it a legitimate option is also easy in that matchup for a variety of reasons IMO, but that's neither here nor there.
 

Bones0

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You can use all these fancy terms and acronyms like "spacing" and "CC", but at the end of the day, it's all meaningless. Nair when you're like "haha, get bopped," and drill to be like "zing!"
 
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