Metal Reeper
Smash Champion
Nice to see doraki still around <3
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I had a gigantic revelation and I think I finally realized how to nair in Fox dittos.
Fortress | Sveet
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jump -> a?
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
ROFL
sveet post
if it's not about frame data or something utterly irrelevant, 0 input
sveet post
if it's not about frame data or something utterly irrelevant, 0 input
Fortress | Sveet
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PGH Carroll
Smash Master
Sveet im gonna get your Avi tatted on my face
Fortress | Sveet
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Its the logo for my dota team 
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
That's easy.
In neutral you either don't or do them in a way that screws with their spacing. The latter obviously is trickier vs better opponents. You can also do it to go around things, but this is hard vs another Fox since his action windows are hard and nair's low range / no priority below it sucks vs a character who likes dash dance grab and hitting "up moves" on descending opponents.
In combos rules of nair are just "don't let them edgecancel if they DI away" and "if they DI away, force them to tech".
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Yeah I was speaking more to the neutral game, and particularly about doing them "in a way that screws with their spacing." i.e. starting your nair towards the end of their dash distance away from you such that they can't DD grab you; or doing them as you have stage control such that you catch them trying to do their own SH aerial out of the corner.
Next I just need to figure out how M2K makes FJ nair look so amazing. I think a big part of it is mixing up the fastfall timing and doing it in situations where anti-air usmash is awkward to hit. I hardly ever approach with FJ against Fox though. I wonder if I should.
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
- Messages
- 5,493
"Towards the end of their dash distance away from you"
Is this as the window for their dash away is ending, so they have to dash back towards you? So you're nairing at a time/spacing where they're forced to deal with it (or maybe that's a position when they can't deal with it?) What would stop them from just pivot grabbing you if it's near the end of their dash away (but still in their dash away)?
If none of this makes sense, just ignore it.
Is this as the window for their dash away is ending, so they have to dash back towards you? So you're nairing at a time/spacing where they're forced to deal with it (or maybe that's a position when they can't deal with it?) What would stop them from just pivot grabbing you if it's near the end of their dash away (but still in their dash away)?
If none of this makes sense, just ignore it.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Yea that's pretty much what I meant. I mean, I think the general idea is to catch them dashing towards you by nairing just as they're about to turn around. Even from a theoretical standpoint, pivot grab doesn't apply because they'd already have turned around in the situation I'm referring to."Towards the end of their dash distance away from you"
Is this as the window for their dash away is ending, so they have to dash back towards you? So you're nairing at a time/spacing where they're forced to deal with it (or maybe that's a position when they can't deal with it?) What would stop them from just pivot grabbing you if it's near the end of their dash away (but still in their dash away)?
If none of this makes sense, just ignore it.
In any case, more generally the idea is to nair in such a way that they can't DD grab you. Often this is done by smartly intruding into their DD space; other times this is done by catching them trying to SH aerial out of the corner because they're out of position. I know it sounds pretty obvious, but there are a lot of subtleties that go into it and I think I got a lot better at it recently. Gonna continue to work on smart and airtight approaches from here on out, both vs. Fox and vs. other characters.
G
genkaku
Guest
full jump fade back nair is good
it's really easy to run into
it's really easy to run into
Bones0
Smash Legend
I don't see why you'd ever want to FH nair instead of FH bair...
Attempting to practice and only go fox in tournament. Let's see how this goes. >_<
FH Nair can be used while straight approaching. FJ Bair requires a slightly greater amount of setup, and can be DD grabbed unless you delay the start of the bair a bit. FJ Nair is less demanding on player input, but doesn't AC.
Both are useful, but have different applications.
Both are useful, but have different applications.
Bones0
Smash Legend
You can't AC FH nair? I thought that was the only reason M2K ever got away with FH nair shine stuff on shields. lol
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I don't think that's an AC. M2K fastfalls it in such a way that even if you could AC FJ nair, he's not getting the AC. It's still a pretty awkward timing to punish out of shield.
Which reminds me, mixing up the timing of your FF and mixing up whether you go deep/pull back when you FJ nair are both really good ways to prevent getting punished.
Which reminds me, mixing up the timing of your FF and mixing up whether you go deep/pull back when you FJ nair are both really good ways to prevent getting punished.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Can someone break down all the elements and explain the spacing/distance/usage for full hop nairs?
I know that's a hole in my Fox game . I don't see how dropping with a low priority nair is a good thing or desirable but that's why I am asking
I know that's a hole in my Fox game . I don't see how dropping with a low priority nair is a good thing or desirable but that's why I am asking
Bones0
Smash Legend
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I mean it depends on what character you're fighting too. FJ nair has a very useful application in the Sheik matchup, for example; you can full jump in (and not do an aerial yet), with the purpose of calling Sheik's short hop. If Sheik does short hop, you stuff it with a nair on the way down. If she throws out a bad tilt, you can land on top of her with a drill or behind her with a deep bair. And if she doesn't do anything, and is at a spacing where she could punish your FJ, you can doublejump away to safety and waveland onto a platform or something.
FJ nair done right gives you a way to punish jumps with prediction while still giving you a relatively safe way out, by mixing up the timing of your FF/the direction you fade, and whether or not you go to a platform after your FJ. On stages like Pokemon Stadium you can also attack people in the corner with FJ nair (calling their jump) and then edgecancelling the FJ off one of the side platforms. There are a bazillion ways to FJ appropriately in the neutral game.
FJ nair done right gives you a way to punish jumps with prediction while still giving you a relatively safe way out, by mixing up the timing of your FF/the direction you fade, and whether or not you go to a platform after your FJ. On stages like Pokemon Stadium you can also attack people in the corner with FJ nair (calling their jump) and then edgecancelling the FJ off one of the side platforms. There are a bazillion ways to FJ appropriately in the neutral game.
RaynEX
Colonel RTSD
Toph, (in regards to your epiphany) sounds like what you're describing is 'overshooting'. I'm almost 100% sure you already did that (when you were in Toronto that one time); it's almost impossible to overcome a tight DD game without it. Essentially, you're aiming behind them with your nairs / shines / FH moves in anticipation of their pivot grab attempt or retreating DD. If done correctly you can often end up tricking opponents into cornering themselves (they keep moving back to prevent your overshoot and have no more room to DD) which lends you massive positional advantage.
This one of things i think about most when playing DD heavy match-ups (Fox / Marth / Falcon)
Also Eggm uses FH nair pretty well, you might find some good examples in his old vids.
This one of things i think about most when playing DD heavy match-ups (Fox / Marth / Falcon)
Also Eggm uses FH nair pretty well, you might find some good examples in his old vids.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Right, I know I was already doing that. It's not like I've never done good nairs before. But I feel like I'm able to concretely recognize when I should or shouldn't nair in certain ways much better than I used to. Hard to explain why.
Edit: I also feel like I got much better at catching my opponents trying to push out of the corner, pre-empting their approach, which would be undershooting if anything. So I guess I just got better at realizing which to do, and when.
Edit: I also feel like I got much better at catching my opponents trying to push out of the corner, pre-empting their approach, which would be undershooting if anything. So I guess I just got better at realizing which to do, and when.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Thank you both for your response. I have that video playing currently and I understand the FJ usage now/more. I thought people would do it to approach but it's more of a safe way to make your opponent flinch (or call them out) and stuff their options while mainting yours. Right. At least that's my intepretation.
Is there any insight or guide on the most efficient way to uthrow->uair? (It's funny how I can SDI out of them better than I can perform them) For midweights and floaties?
For peach specifically I feel like she can DI pretty far away to a position that you can't reach. I asked someone else this and I couldn't get a straight answer, do you run then jump or jump and move in the air to chase hard DI away? I don't know about you all but I think it is one of the few times jumping with the control stick makes something easier.
I guess I have one more unrelated question. When you ASDI, can you already be holding (the control/or c-stick) when you get hit to perform the ASDI or do you have to do it on the 1st frame of hit lag?
Btw I'll try to get some matches recorded in the near future. Hanky Panky (my training partner) has a set up.
Is there any insight or guide on the most efficient way to uthrow->uair? (It's funny how I can SDI out of them better than I can perform them) For midweights and floaties?
For peach specifically I feel like she can DI pretty far away to a position that you can't reach. I asked someone else this and I couldn't get a straight answer, do you run then jump or jump and move in the air to chase hard DI away? I don't know about you all but I think it is one of the few times jumping with the control stick makes something easier.
I guess I have one more unrelated question. When you ASDI, can you already be holding (the control/or c-stick) when you get hit to perform the ASDI or do you have to do it on the 1st frame of hit lag?
Btw I'll try to get some matches recorded in the near future. Hanky Panky (my training partner) has a set up.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Let me clear up my questions, for the ASDI I want to know if you just have to be holding the direction prior to being hit to get an ASDI input. And I am referring to peach at kill percent idk if that makes a difference. I am practicing getting them on the CPU (I keep changing the levels so they DI differently but none of them do the super hard DI away so it's not that helpful).
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
Yes, holding the direction prior to being hit is sufficient. It's SDI that has a strict timing (but SDI is also more effective).
Bones0
Smash Legend
The actual movement from ASDI occurs either on the last frame of hitlag or the frame after hitlag ends (I forget which). You have to input the ASDI by that frame. It's right after regular SDI if that helps you orient the timing in your head. You never really have to time ASDI anyway since you are almost always either going to be holding the same direction the whole time and guarantee the ASDI, or you're going to SDI intentionally and guarantee the ASDI in the same direction you SDIed. If you don't get the ASDI off in time, you just missed your DI in general.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Thank you both kindly, again
edit:
http://youtu.be/Lh4E-cHtrII?t=4m27s
Jabbing through falco ledge hop lasers? I doesn't look like it was intentional but that actually looks interesting since falco's opt for that 99% of the time (from what I have observed). It's not as good as being able to power shield the first laser but it might beat any of Falco's follow ups or actions if you mash A after you get hit by the first laser.
I am a pretty big fan of hit confirming jabs into a smash/nair/bair
edit:
http://youtu.be/Lh4E-cHtrII?t=4m27s
Jabbing through falco ledge hop lasers? I doesn't look like it was intentional but that actually looks interesting since falco's opt for that 99% of the time (from what I have observed). It's not as good as being able to power shield the first laser but it might beat any of Falco's follow ups or actions if you mash A after you get hit by the first laser.
I am a pretty big fan of hit confirming jabs into a smash/nair/bair
Voltz
Smash Journeyman
Does anyone know how to play against Shiek?
ElloEddy
Smash Journeyman
CC shine.....that is all
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
ElloEddy: How are you planning on getting your CC shines?
Tachi: I'm not sure if jab really sends them far enough. In the video you linked Zhu managed to DI through the jab (the Falco would definitely be holding in anyway); that was the worst case scenario, and I feel like in the best case scenario Falco would just land on the ledge lol. If you're gonna mash something between the lasers, mash on shine. Or get your shield up, take whatever Falco tries to do after the lasers (hopefully it isn't a grab) and shine him OOS.
^ All tried and true btw.
Tachi: I'm not sure if jab really sends them far enough. In the video you linked Zhu managed to DI through the jab (the Falco would definitely be holding in anyway); that was the worst case scenario, and I feel like in the best case scenario Falco would just land on the ledge lol. If you're gonna mash something between the lasers, mash on shine. Or get your shield up, take whatever Falco tries to do after the lasers (hopefully it isn't a grab) and shine him OOS.
^ All tried and true btw.
ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
CCing against Sheik aerials is unreliable. CCing Sheik tilts is scary because if she doesn't tilt you, you probably just got grabbed/d-smashed. Most Sheiks won't do anything unsafe to a stationary Fox at low percents anyway, so yea I don't see CC shine being by any means an end-all-be-all.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
People say to drill->grab (against Falco but whoever you want)
I imagine that's not a true combo since usmash and grab both hit on frame 7
I don't get why no one drill->usmashes if its equally illegit
I imagine that's not a true combo since usmash and grab both hit on frame 7
I don't get why no one drill->usmashes if its equally illegit
- Joined
- Feb 27, 2008
- Messages
- 26,560
if they hold shield drill -> grab works, but drill -> upsmash doesn't.
BTmoney
a l l b e c o m e $
Fair enough
- Joined
- Mar 14, 2011
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If Peach hard DIs behind Fox and DJ + airdodges out appropriately, I don't think uthrow > uair combos her. Not legitimately.
Bl@ckChris
Smash Hero
you guys will have an interesting set to look at soon. me vs esam fox dittos. he ended up SDing when he went samus, so i actually beat it. his fox knows what it's doing a little better than mine though, so he 3-0'd me in fox dittos.
i find it comical that i took a game off the samus and not the fox, considering...javi things...
i find it comical that i took a game off the samus and not the fox, considering...javi things...
Penguin_ftw
Smash Apprentice
Bones0
Smash Legend
- I think you nair-shine a little too much for Fox dittos. I feel like you were getting a lot of first hits but not being able to capitalize because you were shining. Grabbing or utilting if you can hit confirm your approaching nair would probably lead to much more consistent punishes. I also thought you could have substituted a few of your uthrow usmashes with uthrow utilts so you can combo a bit longer before knocking them off stage.
- I don't like how much you dash attack. I feel like it will get punished a lot by players who are better at shielding. At 15:30, he was at 120% in turn around lag and you could have just usmashed his face into oblivion instead of DAing. Also, at one point you scooped him off the ground with dash attack, but he just floated out because it doesn't have enough stun. You could have run cancelled into a shine-usmash or dtilt to keep him in stun.
- A few of your FH bairs could have been replaced with FH uairs since he was at a lower percent where you want to combo instead of knock him away.
- When you up-B, try to start it at good heights/distances. For at least two of the up-Bs that you did, you started slightly below the ledge from pretty far away. This means you can't really use the angle, and you can't go straight at the ledge either. Spacie recoveries get a lot easier to cover once you dip below the ledge because you no longer have to worry about that straight horizontal recovery, and when they can't angle against the stage for part of their up-B there are no teching options or timing mixups (except for FF vs. no FF once the up-B finishes).
- I like the drill usage (ironically, you didn't shine much after drills). You stuck to grabs, but also don't be afraid to utilt if you can hit confirm and the percent is right.