Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[omgwtfToph]

dude I kinda don't think it's worth trying to shine sheik off the stage. it seems like it really doesn't lead to anything vs that char; it's not falcon/marth. you had the right idea with the combo on the last stock of the 4th match I think; more of that ****. seems like you shoulda just shined him after he went off the stage instead of going for that shine-turnaround bair. then you coulda punished his landing onto the stage with something and turned it into an edgeguard situation. but idk if the bair hit that woulda been hella good too lol

 

[Kason Birdman]

keep in mind when i say camp, I mean to not do anything unneeded, keep your space with occas lazer to make the marth commit to something because if he commits enough fox can punish most of what he'll do.

 

[chillindude829]

Yea I was a little too risky with that, although it pays off sometimes. I dunno I think against most sheiks I'd rarely try to shine but against m2k low % kills are extremely valuable since he's m2k

And yea I think I shouldve just fast fall naired him at the end instead of the turnaround bair cuz there was no way I could've double jumped and still hit him I don't think

 

[Metal Reeper]

You can grab sheik inbetween the utilt

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Hmm so u could shine between hits but not much else, and I guess roll or shine is the best option if u don't punish between hits

**** that move lol

Thx for the info sveet

Np. You can probably grab too. The first frame of the second hitbox is very high and doesnt actually hit your shield until the 2nd or third frame (depending on spacing) so for practical purposes you are at a 9-10 frame advantage.

 

[omgwtfToph]

if you're at a low percent, you could purposely drop shield and hold down for the CC into probably a lot of stuff (spacing dependent)

^ very good trick vs falcon's gentleman btw

 

[Voltz]

Almost there...

 

[Strong Badam]

blue fox
don't fail me now

PURPLE BOOTS

 

[unknown522]

Damn, info gets lost with the ages

 

[omgwtfToph]

True

</unknown522>

 

[Smooth Criminal]

You're doing it wrong, Toph.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Metal Reeper]

Gigantic fart

 

[omgwtfToph]

You're doing it wrong, Toph.

Smooth Criminal

yeah you have no idea what i was going for lmfao

 

[Smooth Criminal]

yeah you have no idea what i was going for lmfao

looking back in retrospect, I understand now. You were going for the "unknown," which is basically a monosyllabic answer to most questions.

I feel dumb. *falls on his sword.*

Smooth Criminal

 

[bearsfan092]

Is there anywhere that has the data for Fox's uthrow chaingrab on Fox/Falco/Falcon? Specifically the percentage ranges.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Fox's uthrow chaingrab works on both spacies from 0% all the way to 100%+ if they keep DI'ing to the side. At 50% they start being able to doublejump or shine out if they don't DI (i.e. go straight up); then you need utilt to keep the combo going.

The chaingrab on Falcon starts working in the upper 30s (I believe) and works until maybe the 70s or beyond. It's a much less ubiquitous chaingrab but it's still good.

 

[Bones0]

Falco can shine out of the chain grab at 50%??? That seems a lot earlier than what I was able to do when I experimented. I wasn't able to shine/DJ out until around 80%, and even then the usmash would often hit me out of the DJ anyway.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon can jump out of fox's uthrow at any percent, even if he DIs to the side.

 

[Zoler]

Fox's uthrow chaingrab works on both spacies from 0% all the way to 100%+ if they keep DI'ing to the side. At 50% they start being able to doublejump or shine out if they don't DI (i.e. go straight up); then you need utilt to keep the combo going.

The chaingrab on Falcon starts working in the upper 30s (I believe) and works until maybe the 70s or beyond. It's a much less ubiquitous chaingrab but it's still good.

Oh Toph... this is such an american thing Fox can't chaingrab falcon

 

[Bones0]

trololololo

 

[KirbyKaze]

@ Chillin

Your play around the edge is bad - remember that Sheik can only play timing games with her Up+B against you once you've removed her ability to do anything but Up+B. Forcing her offstage and putting her through her recovery paces is worth more than doing 20% in shine > u-smash unless the u-smash kills her.

Stop trying to muscle through his shield and just grab him.

I feel you need to get more comfortable grabbing the edge.

M2K goes for desperation stuff a lot when he's winning, he tries to force hits and trades at high percent more than any other player I know. Use that in whatever way you can. I find with Fox that means chances to up smash or get under his nair with an up tilt.

Just roll or something after Sheik u-tilts your shield if it catches you offguard. Or buffer jump around it. Don't challenge it. You can shine OOS between the hits if you expect it, you can also shield grab between them.

I feel he sucks you into really childish baiting games a lot. Especially when you're cornered. Be more patient in those moments because he's really just goading you and you're running into it. Stop trying to win just by muscling through him.

If you want we can talk about these further on a chat medium. I'd be fine going over this with you.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Falcon can jump out of fox's uthrow at any percent, even if he DIs to the side.

yeah no lol

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

 

[Ziodyne]

maybe im not looking at it right, but i dont think that gif disproves toph
it's a grab at 0%, toph says the cg starts working at 30%

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Falcon can jump out of fox's uthrow at any percent, even if he DIs to the side.

I believe I said that already... Also, fox doesn't have a chaingrab on falcon, even though falcon can choose not to jump and get grabbed. I mean, if fox did usmash or nair instead of grab, falcon could lose his double jump and die from that, so most falcons just choose not to jump.

 

[Lovage]

i too don't believe u sveet you can def. regrab falcon around 30

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Ah yes you can. Gotta be frame perfect though, dash first frame and jump cancel frame 2. If you aren't frame perfect falcon can still jump out.

 

[Bones0]

Melee's been out for 12 years.




No one's quite sure how Fox's uthrow works yet.

 

[Zoler]

Hmm, I didn't think it worked at all. I just thought the falcons you guys were playing just didn't wanna jump out since they were scared of then getting hit by a usmash or whatever and then not having their jump (which is kinda what happens in most situations were a falcon gets chaingrabbed).

Sveet can you check at what percentages it works from? Anyway it wouldn't be really worth to use it though if you need to be frame perfect with every grab, better to just take the free usmash / nair.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Some simple solutions:

- Nair or u-smash / u-tilt / other move that isn't grab after the shine / aerial setup
- B-throw / f-throw depending on stage positioning and percent
- Stalk under him after u-throw and land something that kills him
- Guess whether he'll jump or not and if you get it, he dies (if you FJ uair him out of his DJ, he should die)

 

[chillindude829]

full jump bair past him? this is what i would usually do in that scenario, and i think it covers all the options, although you rarely get a strong bair but that means you usually get a followup

edit: also KK do you still go on AIM? ill get on sometime if you wanna give me some more tips on fox vs sheik

 

[unknown522]

@ Chillin

Your play around the edge is bad - remember that Sheik can only play timing games with her Up+B against you once you've removed her ability to do anything but Up+B. Forcing her offstage and putting her through her recovery paces is worth more than doing 20% in shine > u-smash unless the u-smash kills her.

Stop trying to muscle through his shield and just grab him.

I feel you need to get more comfortable grabbing the edge.

M2K goes for desperation stuff a lot when he's winning, he tries to force hits and trades at high percent more than any other player I know. Use that in whatever way you can. I find with Fox that means chances to up smash or get under his nair with an up tilt.

Just roll or something after Sheik u-tilts your shield if it catches you offguard. Or buffer jump around it. Don't challenge it. You can shine OOS between the hits if you expect it, you can also shield grab between them.

I feel he sucks you into really childish baiting games a lot. Especially when you're cornered. Be more patient in those moments because he's really just goading you and you're running into it. Stop trying to win just by muscling through him.

If you want we can talk about these further on a chat medium. I'd be fine going over this with you.

I was watching this set with Raynex on monday and we talked about stuff. But I forget what specifically was said

 

[BTmoney]

full jump bair past him? this is what i would usually do in that scenario, and i think it covers all the options, although you rarely get a strong bair but that means you usually get a followup

edit: also KK do you still go on AIM? ill get on sometime if you wanna give me some more tips on fox vs sheik

I just figured I'd give you a, random but nonetheless sincere, compliment since you earned it.
I was looking for some peach/fox stuff and watched a good bit of you on the tubes. It is more than feasible that you play the peach MU better than literally any other Fox. It's really something basic but I feel like a lot of other Fox players like to choose subpar options and try to engage with nairs and bairs in the wrong situations far too often and get dsmashed for it way more than they should. You also make good use of utilt.
You dair especially well versus peach and I can't think of a reason why other players don't do that.

 

[Alotsa]

Is Mango's shield pressure (a la Apex 2012 v Armada) frame perfect stuff?

 

[Apasher]

I need some recent high level Fox vs Falco vids to analyze.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Ah yes you can. Gotta be frame perfect though, dash first frame and jump cancel frame 2. If you aren't frame perfect falcon can still jump out.

which implies that falcon has to be frame perfect too. you can't buffer doublejumps!

edit: And no, Mango's shield pressure wasn't "frame perfect" because "frame perfect shield pressure" is only theoretically attainable.

 

[Doraki]

you can't buffer doublejumps!

out of hitstun you can. the buffer there is like half a second long.

 

[Bones0]

Is Mango's shield pressure (a la Apex 2012 v Armada) frame perfect stuff?

No, but even if you could do frame perfect shield pressure, it's still really dangerous (I'm assuming you asked because your opponents are doing stuff OoS during your pressure).

out of hitstun you can. the buffer there is like half a second long.

I thought you had to hit a surface before you could buffer a DJ out of stun. If you're right, then why is it so hard to time things like DJing asap to get out of Fox's uthrow usmash? When I was testing what percent I could get out as Falco, sometimes I jumped a split second too early and nothing happened, and other times I did it a little later (at the same %) and was able to jump before getting hit. If it buffered by 30+ frames, it would be really easy to avoid every time once I got to a high enough percent.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

which implies that falcon has to be frame perfect too. you can't buffer doublejumps!

Only relatively. Falcon has a 5 or more frame window to jump before he hits the ground (he has a 2-3 frame window at 0%). It really only relies on the fox being perfect or not. Plus its only for a small range starting at 30%, hardly worth mentioning.

 

[Doraki]

I thought you had to hit a surface before you could buffer a DJ out of stun.

I wasn't aware about this. I know I inadvertently buffered a lot of double jumps (sometimes killing me) but I never really noticed if the buffer was there all the time or not.
So you're probably right.