Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Metal Reeper]

my fox is on that 2014 ****.

Didn't you get 49nth at Rom 2012?

Oh wait, that was Falco ;p

 

[Machiavelli]

Show me where on the doll the angel touched you.

I don't think she could help herself.

 

[Metal Reeper]

So when I shine>WD>Jab and the jab sends them offstage a tiny bit they usually end up grabbing the ledge before I can get in my next attack. Any ideas? I usually try to get in a shine but it never works lol. Should I just Dsmash instead of jab? I really rather try to get that jab in and then a strong attack.

 

[Jake13]

Jab to low angled ftilt

 

[omgwtfToph]

If you're talking about vs spacies, then do two jabs which at very low %'s helps to not send them off the ledge. Waveshine dsmash won't connect unless you have running momentum (or have TAS techskill).

If you're talking about vs characters that don't fall from shine, then don't jab.

 

[Bones0]

Dtilt instead of jab.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Jab to low angled ftilt

Im not sure whats going on in this thread, but I stopped by to say Jake13 is the truth

 

[genkaku]

can't you jab dsmash?

 

[Metal Reeper]

I'm gonna start trying bthrow. They land on plat and I punished the missed tech. People do this....right?

 

[Bones0]

Why wouldn't you just uthrow and take the free hit w/o having to tech chase?

 

[Jim Morrison]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tOGi4IkHE_Y&feature=g-high

Tear me down please, except the first minute and a half, ignore that horrible play. But any critique on the vid would be much appreciated.

 

[Coffeeblack]

Any advice vs campy, super defensive falcos?

 

[Jim Morrison]

Shine their lasers until they approach.

 

[TemPesT-]

I think its easier to just stay above or below the falcos.. (this is why falco ***** on FD) you can still approach them using platforms and even punish their bad lasers.. otherwise just learn to power shield, so you can run at them and punish their predictable lasers.

 

[EWC]

I think fighting falco is all about keeping tempo control. First focus on maintaining mobility, ie don't let his lasers lock you down. You can do this by moving on platforms, fullhopping in certain places, and trying to stay in positions where it's awkward to do a direct approach after a laser. Once you have free mobility, you can gain the ability to attack whenever you want, and from a lot of different angles and with different timings. Then it becomes a lot harder for falco to know where to put hitboxes to stop you, and all of his defensive options become a lot weaker.

Basically try to keep him uncertain about when and from where you are going to strike.

 

[Bones0]

I like to think of the matchup in terms of momentum. Not player momentum or anything like that. Literal character momentum. Falco is slow, so once you can force him to stand still, it's much easier to capitalize on his ****ty movement. That probably sounds contradictory, but basically think of it in terms of tech chase mixups where the opponent will barely reach you in time. Getting knocked down is bad for all characters, but it's one of the worst positions for Falco specifically. Most of the top tiers are fast enough that if they get knocked down, their opponent still has to worry about dashes/WDs messing up their positioning. Falco's dash/WD are so slow that if he were to do something like get up in place, he typically has to hard read something and beat it out directly. This is why you so often see get ups in place followed by shines or rolls or spot dodges. They are all options used when stationary. You usually don't see Falcos tech in place and do a quick pivot grab like you do with Fox, Sheik, or Marth. His dash isn't fast/long enough, and his grab punishes aren't as solid. Most people would probably agree that Falco is at his most dangerous when he has a full head of steam. When he's mowing you down with lasers and using his DD to stay unpredictable, the other character is often the one making desperation moves based on pretty blind reads. So using this mentality, I would say Fox should do his best to keep Falco locked down not just so he has reduced options, but so he has reduced movement. The more you can force him into the more "digital" movement choices (such as rolls, spotdodges, jump OoS, or even CCing, even though that's not actual movement), the easier it will be to capitalize compared to trying to play vs. more "analog" movement choices (DDWDing, SHLing, SHFFLing aerials, empty hops or any sort of platform WL integration, etc). The digital options are usually either right or wrong, while analog options have a lot more diverse and complex situations because of varying spacings and tempos (tempo being the expected pattern of timing, not actually timing itself, such as a tempo for SHLs or SHFFLs being altered to catch OoS options).


Not sure how much sense or how helpful that will be. I sort of just started talking about some vague concept I have had but hadn't really tried to verbalize, so it's kinda all over the place. Maybe a top player can clarify or expand on it.

 

[Strong Badam]

the true way to beat falcos is to falco ditto them and abuse how terrible 90% of falco mains are at what this game is about fundamentally.

 

[EWC]

Nope just powershield

 

[Metal Reeper]

I don't understand why ppl don't go for the powershield its not hard at all. Of course movement is great I'd rather PS. Or take the laser and dash dance. It gives the Falco false security.

 

[Strong Badam]

what revolutionary advice i can't believe players haven't tried to do that in the past decade

 

[Metal Reeper]

This is why I hate posting.

 

[Bones0]

I'd be pretty upset if I were a DK main that was told the only way to beat Falco is to PS.

 

[Strong Badam]

I don't main DK.

 

[Bones0]

You could play Fox every game for the rest of your life, but you know you'd still be a DK main.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

This is why I hate posting.

yeah pretty much why i stopped. I only talk serious strategy in private now

 

[Lovage]

I don't understand why ppl don't go for the powershield its not hard at all. Of course movement is great I'd rather PS. Or take the laser and dash dance. It gives the Falco false security.

i would argue that at higher level, taking the laser and trying to continuing your dash dance is a really bad strat, and that most falcos will be able to **** you pretty hard if you eat a laser at close range

 

[Metal Reeper]

Thanks for that Oscar. Doesn't m2k get away with that all the time though? I'm surprised higher level falcos don't laser much

 

[Lovage]

m2k uses fox against falco players? lol

 

[Doser]

m2k uses fox against falco players? lol

Fox is the only character that can dash dance? lol

 

[Lovage]

now im just confused lol i thought the question was about fox falco

so when he brings up the tactic m2k uses, i dont think it applys very much unless hes trying to talk about marth falco

 

[Bones0]

If M2K can effectively DD out of laser stun with Sheik/Marth, I don't see why Fox wouldn't be able to.

 

[omgwtfToph]

I mean it depends on the distance to the Falco lol. If you can't get punished after taking a laser, it's a completely different story than if you could. That said, I'm not entirely sure taking a laser and continuing to dashdance is all that different from just shielding and WDing out.

 

[Metal Reeper]

m2k uses fox against falco players? lol

(Forgot I was in the Fox boards and now a Fox main) But I was just talking about laser advice in general of course.

 

[kd-]

What should I do against lasers in close range? Shine aerials? Grab before the Falco does?

 

[omgwtfToph]

Whatever you do, don't just stand there.

 

[L__]

if falco is lasering like a n00b you can walk up and ftilt for free

TESTED AND CONFIRMED AGAINST ZHU

 

[leffen]

I finally overcame my sheik problem this weekend! I beat over 3-0 with a big margin each game.., I'm still not great in the matchup though. I also beat jv4 stocked Ice (winning 2-0) and won against adam 3-0 and zgetto 4-0... but I still lost to armada >_____<

I took two games and all the other games where close but I honestly feel like the matchup isn't even close to 65-35 like I previously though... esp not in PAL and when playing as a human and not TAS.

The fact that armada has finally learned how to DI uthrow uair (the uthrow, not the uair), which makes uthrow do 1% (not kidding) and it doesn't combo at ANY percent, is a HUGE deal imo, because it makes her shield super safe against fox (compare amsah in ntsc vs in pal lol).

I started to find it better to just use dthrow or fthrow/bthrow if she was close to the ledge... because even though those grabs also suck they at least deal more than 1% >_> and give you a positional advantage (while uthrow usually means giving peach a easy way to get back in the middle)



the vids will hopefully be up soon, but before that does anyone have a clue on how to deal with peach at low% as well as getting kills on her?

 

[Silent Wolf]

ive been studying the peach match up a lot lately (mainly just bladewise) and have made a lot of improvement.

which way does he DI the uthrow? if its like at least halfway towards (idk the specifics), fthrow would prob be a good option for it since fthrow combos well on peach. and what does he do to avoid the uair?

ive found that its safest to use only bairs, and lasers if you can vs peach (mixed with grabs of course) and just use those to open up advantageous situations. things like nair and dair are good situationally but arent as reliable for opening up adv. situations safely. aka play hella gay vs peach lol. a lot of situations pop up for nair/dair without the use of/for bair so im not saying only use bair to start stuff.

i feel like this stuff is kinda obvious when im explaining it to a high level player tho lol.

 

[leffen]

he DI's the uthrow fully behind almost everytime, at higher percents he sometimes DI's away since you can't reach him anyway.

after DI'ng away he usually just djs away, or he floats away. Sometimes he airdodges when he has platforms to make it safe.

No other peach has ever made it even close to this hard to uthrow uair him. I feel like he has 80% chance of getting away, and that I have 20% chance of hitting him...

It really sucks honestly, because grabs are also one thing that let you get him off CC percents. Now 90% of stocks I just have to hit him with 5 bairs in the air (ground =death by CC)
before I can even start to use any other move lol while he just has to punish the long bair lag once and I'm dead/take at least 50%.


I will try using fthrow though, thats a really good point.


the more I think about the matchup it just feels like I'm playing Falcon without any death combos...

 

[rokimomi]

but lazers...