Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[ShroudedOne]

So if he just full DIs behind you, he can DJ out all the time? Darkatma was saying the same thing in the Peach boards, that Peach should NEVER die from a grab from Fox.

The more I look at the MU, the more I can see a cohesive argument for it being almost even. But then I play it and change my mind again, lol.

 

[leffen]

do 2% and honestly, its hard to even hit them vs peach since you have to FH laser (and that is very vulnerable and requires, and gives up, a lot of space).

just think about how many times you HIT a laser to make up for the fact that he punished you once.

The ratio is probably something like 25-1... is it that hard to punish a laser? All you have to do is move forward


@Shroudedone.

Yes, just DI behind. Uthrow does one percent and leaves you with zero followup.



Honestly I'm kind of considering to pick up another character after Apex to fight Armada... I'm still very confident in that I'd beat any other peach player but I'm not sure I want to play Fox in the long run against him... you have to have INCREDIBLY good execution while still being patient as **** and you don't even get to do fun combos like falco does :d

 

[Silent Wolf]

if hes DIs full in at like 70-80 you should try the one where you run for a bit then jump and try to catch him out of his jump/float (and be ready to try to punish airdodge). it def isnt anything gaurunteed or anything but do you do that one? it works for me sometimes.

the one at 5:10:50 here

http://www.twitch.tv/gameclucks/b/331533178

this set was before i started practicing again but yea the uthrow uair lol. it seems like if you do it right you should have a good chance at punishing an airdodge at that percent too. after that i would just try to laser/bair/grab for pummeling/mixup purposes tho lol

 

[Bones0]

Been saying Fox-Peach is even (or worse) for a year now. Glad to see you're coming around, Leffen. ;D

We should play if you're going to Apex. I want to throw some Fox-Peach theory bros at you that pertains to grab punishes.

 

[Strong Badam]

I think it's definitely in Fox's favor but not 65-35 (in NTSC)

 

[leffen]

It's definitely a good one SW, and yes I have been doing it but maybe I should use it some more.


@Strongbad. You should know, since you have so much top level experience in it.

jesus

 

[ShroudedOne]

Or worse, Bones? It might be even, but she definitely doesn't beat Fox, lol

 

[Bones0]

@ShroudedOne. You would know, since you have so much top level experience in it.

moses

 

[ShroudedOne]

Dang. I have no good response for that. Well played.

 

[leffen]

I don't think she loses in theory, but I'm honestly not sure about in practice.

The execution barrier is definitely a BIG thing, and when I'm considering me vs other peaches you have to realize that he has insane amounts of experience in it and I don't have any way to catch up in that department either.

The thing is too, that I wanna beat Armada solidly. I don't want to go only be able to win when I have insane amounts of warmup and am in my best possible shape, simply because I've realized that tournaments often don't allow it (our HF lan set was played at 3am)

I'm definitely gonna look into playing another character, at least after I've reviewed our HF lan sets.

If you guys want, I could post it publicly (it really helps me to get another set of eyes on these types of situations, since I don't know how much bias/frustration).


also bones that was gold

 

[RFrizzle]

Dang that was brutal leffen wtf lol

 

[Strong Badam]

@leffen:
Wow, what a pleasant person to converse with! Yeah, it sucks I have no top level experience in it... maybe that's because top level for Peach is 1 player and he lives on another continent from me? Or maybe you just live vicariously through Armada all the time because you have uncommon access to the only top player that doesn't live in North America. Either way you're a ****. The worst part is that it doesn't even look like you disagree with me based on your previous post, yet you took the opportunity to ad hominem in the most obnoxious and cancerous manner, as you usually do, with absolutely no provocation whatsoever. If you like to mention Armada so much why don't you take a look at how he conducts himself on the boards, because it's much more conducive to.... well, not being a ****.

jesus

 

[Bones0]

If your theory doesn't match how the matchup goes in practice, that just means you're not considering certain elements of the matchup. Saying that you could, in theory, run away and laser all game is dumb because the only way you can do that is if you play perfect. Too often people get caught up in playing perfect (myself included). It seems paradoxical, but trying to play perfect is suboptimal.

Have you considered going Puff on your cps? Idk how much experience/fun you have with Puff, but I certainly think any player that can cp with a solid Jiggs has a chance at taking games from Armada.

I think you should just stick with Fox for the most part though. Just throw out what you think you know, and try and get some new technology. The reason you feel like you can't catch up to Armada is because you're playing his game. If you flip the script and do stuff he hasn't seen before, even if it's not terribly effective, it can make openings in other aspects of the game. /imo



Your Fox is so sexy, SW. You obviously aren't afraid of FoD's low plats like 99% of players, and it shows.

 

[leffen]

I'm just really, really tired of below average players who think they know when EVERYBODY knows that they have absolutely no idea about how the matchup is at high level or even medium level in your case.

And then you go and post "I think its definitely x-x" You don't justify anything, and you're SURE of it, so I took the time to point out that nobody cares about a blanket statement from you, because you have no qualifications what so ever. Why do you feel like we should care about your post, especially when the opinion is so common that every single statement I make is based around the common opinion.

 

[Bones0]

That's why I just copied and pasted your response. You both did use the word "definitely". lol

 

[Winston]

If you guys want, I could post it publicly (it really helps me to get another set of eyes on these types of situations, since I don't know how much bias/frustration).

Post it! I'm interested, and I'm sure others are too.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

@leffen:
Wow, what a pleasant person to converse with! Yeah, it sucks I have no top level experience in it... maybe that's because top level for Peach is 1 player and he lives on another continent from me? Or maybe you just live vicariously through Armada all the time because you have uncommon access to the only top player that doesn't live in North America. Either way you're a ****. The worst part is that it doesn't even look like you disagree with me based on your previous post, yet you took the opportunity to ad hominem in the most obnoxious and cancerous manner, as you usually do, with absolutely no provocation whatsoever. If you like to mention Armada so much why don't you take a look at how he conducts himself on the boards, because it's much more conducive to.... well, not being a ****.

jesus

Didn't you know that being good at smash grants you the privileges to be a disrespectful, spoiled *******?
LOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL;D

 

[Bones0]

Is that why you're so polite?

 

[rokimomi]

bones is on a fugging ROLL!

 

[leffen]

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

get raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaped mikehaggar


mr. i play the most with the best player in the world and still gets last place at tournaments,

thank you for being so horrible, otherwise armada would have proper falcon experience

 

[ShroudedOne]

That's why I just copied and pasted your response. You both did use the word "definitely". lol

I think there are some things people are allowed to say definitively about matchups, despite not having Armada in their backyard (no slight to Leffen). It's not as if you can't get a basic, decent idea of how some matchups play out at top level through a decent amount of using your resources. And Armada, nor any other Peach, has offered enough evidence to the contrary, so far.

But I'm not interested in continuing this since I already got put on blast LOL

 

[leffen]

armada lives 7 hours away from me ;_;


and every result points to it being in peachs favor, what are you talking about, the only thing fox has is theorycrafting from people who don't play the matchup

 

[ShroudedOne]

Do you mean the evidence of Armada beating Foxes that he's definitely a better player than?

Though, yes, he has beaten Mango's Fox, several times. Below top level, though, I think there's more evidence that points to it being even, to be honest, than points to it being in her favor or against her.

When I said that Peaches have offered no evidence, I was referring to the evidence pointing towards it being in her favor.

 

[leffen]

what about vwins beating bam and unknown522

what about me losing to vanityangel, and going 3-2 with him last set even though I have better peach practice than anyone else in the world and am a better player overall?

what about mango vs bladewise

what about armada doing way better against foxes than falco/sheik/falcon

those are the questions i ask myself whenever I think about peach-fox

why the hell does fox do horrible when he is peach's hardest counter

 

[Bones0]

We went through this in the tier list thread months ago. I said I thought Peach goes even or beats Fox. Everyone said that was ridiculous. Impossible. INSANE. I pointed out that tournament results backed me up because virtually every regional pair of high level Fox/Peach mains have the Peaches coming out on top. Then I was accused of making a results-based list just because my opinion coincided with results... (Bones logic)

Maybe the results have changed since, and obviously it's not 100% across the board, but there is definitely a tendency for high level Peaches to beat high level Foxes outside of Armada. Again, let me make it quite clear that I'm not using this as proof or even evidence that the matchup is in Peach's favor. All I'm saying is that the burden of proof is on people who think Peach loses to explain why because results are the only evidence we have of matchups, and the evidence we have points to Peach winning. It's times like these I wish the Elo ratings were working so I could point out the ratio of Peach wins to Fox wins in the matchup.

 

[leffen]

adding to that i dont think anyone even comes close to being as good as armada is with peach against fox, while i definitely think people are a lot closer to the reverse if you compare others to me/mango/m2k/bam who all are great in the matchup'


for gods sake there isnt even another peach that can chaingrab
i havent heard of a fox placing as good as macd without being able to waveshine though

 

[ShroudedOne]

ahhhhhhhhh

 

[Jim Morrison]

You're discussing 2 different matchups. There's Fox vs Peach and there's Fox vs Armada's Peach. You can't even compare and have to differentiate those two.

 

[Bones0]

Firstly, Fox is not Peach's hardest counter, lol. In NTSC, there's a STRONG argument for that being Sheik. But I digress.

I don't think he does better vs Fox than he does Falco. You would know better than I. But even so, that's more of the fact that people are more comfortable vs Fox since a LOT of people play him, and he has been considered a hard MU for Peach for a lot time. So he had to know it inside and out (especially since so many people CP him with Fox). And he may just be more comfortable in the matchup (this is why I don't like looking to results for MU guidance by themselves).

Javi beat Vanz at Apex 2012. Bladewise goes back and forth with Eggz and SW. He also lost to Lovage at NWM.

You go even with Armada for the most part, even though most people would be in agreement that he is a much better player. I don't think Peaches are winning the MU by that large of a margin overall (and there are tons of factors that play into why they do win the MU, like how comfortable players are in them).

Javi lost game 1 to Vanz's Peach, won game 2 on HIS COUNTERPICK (DL), then beat Vanz's Sheik game 3. That's even further supporting the notion that it's not in Fox's favor.

 

[Warhawk]

The fact that armada has finally learned how to DI uthrow uair (the uthrow, not the uair), which makes uthrow do 1% (not kidding) and it doesn't combo at ANY percent, is a HUGE deal imo, because it makes her shield super safe against fox (compare amsah in ntsc vs in pal lol).

Can other characters do this or is it mostly just Peach that can make it so that upthrow uair 100% doesn't combo?

 

[Silent Wolf]

It depends on the character

 

[unknown522]

what about vwins beating bam and unknown522

what about me losing to vanityangel, and going 3-2 with him last set even though I have better peach practice than anyone else in the world and am a better player overall?

what about mango vs bladewise

what about armada doing way better against foxes than falco/sheik/falcon

those are the questions i ask myself whenever I think about peach-fox

why the hell does fox do horrible when he is peach's hardest counter

Vwins and I were 1-1 in that tourney.

I do understand what you are saying, but I figured I should point that out

 

[Divinokage]

Could be that Fox has been figured out completely and Peach is starting to **** every matchup while it seems like that beating Peach gets harder.

 

[KirbyKaze]

jman leaves and this is what happens smh

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

loooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL

get raaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaped mikehaggar


mr. i play the most with the best player in the world and still gets last place at tournaments,

thank you for being so horrible, otherwise armada would have proper falcon experience

Look strongbad, this is what I'm talking about! Isn't it admirable? Isn't he cool? Get to work and get better so you can act in just as cool of a manner!

thanks for expressing your unbiased and fair opinion of me that nobody else shares with you, conveniently suppressing tournament results that don't support said opinion and lying about the others.

 

[Lovage]

jman leaves and this is what happens smh

ya thast what im screamin

 

[leffen]

Look strongbad, this is what I'm talking about! Isn't it admirable? Isn't he cool? Get to work and get better so you can act in just as cool of a manner!

Is that why you're so polite?

I never entered this community to get attention or to be famous, I'm in here because I want to be the ****ing best, not attention ***** while feeding the top players pot money like you.

Keep hating on me, it's hilarious. You do the same thing as I do, except you don't have any skill to back it up. I guess you're just jealous.

Trust me, if you think I'm the only one who thinks likes this then you should become just a tad bit more self aware. Oh, and since when is an opinion wrong just because it's not the norm?

 

[Cactuar]

Fox vs Peach is fun.

 

[Dark Hart]

You Leffen, don't respond to hater or attentions hoes

That want responses

Also

Fox boards 2013 = we lose to Peach?

Wat?

 

[Dark Hart]

Wooooow I can't Engrish at all right now