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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

unknown522

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You can jump out of your shine on frame 4 iirc and you then have to wait until frame 4 of your jump animation (first frame that he's airborne).

So what, 7 frames between each shine I think. I may be off by a frame.

I'm pretty sure someone made a thread about this (KK?)

:phone:
 

Wake

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Thank you Based Mimi.
Duly noted @ everything. And yeah, on the match vs FoD after I lost my first stock I was kinda like "lol, **** it."

I did notice some of the stuff you mentioned (that firefox where I went horizontal instead of sweetspotting the ledge was a weird techskill error lol) but reading your post and going back, I'm noticing a lot of careless/brainless recoveries I'm doing and times where I could drill or grab but go for something suboptimal instead. And I'm really seeing how bad I am at fighting peach in close quarters. I really need to work on that aspect of my game. So yeah, thanks for all the advice lol I really appreciate it.

I am reminded that it never actually hits me that Peach loses options when she's carrying a turnip.

Funny story about me and Bladewise on FD; I didn't ban it, he did. Last time I had him in tournament I let him strike to FD, and then let him counterpick FD when he lost and it was a 2-0. I really like FD vs. Peach; your analysis is correct. >_>
Oh cool. I'm not the only crazy one. I hate FD vs Fox.
 

TSM ZeRo

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as for preparing for your match (what's his name btw) you should definitely ban FD and you should pick brinstar if you're good at it (fox destroys falco on brinstar imo, that was my old school counterpick in 2010) or yoshi's if that gets banned out.

BUT

if you're really willing to practice weird stages just to win on your opponent's inexperience, you're gonna be really disappointed if you ever travel to a major tournament in the US. not only will all your crutch stages be banned but we will be a lot better at neutrals than you lol.

so, as a long term strategy, i would suggest shifting your stage priority to battlefield, yoshi's and dreamland. those are the 3 most commonly played stages in the game at tournament level. they deserve the most attention by far.



FALCO

``
first of all, frame traps barely exist in melee. like they do, but i'm almost 100% sure it isn't what you're thinking of. and please, NEVER have a defeatist attitude about certain gay things in this game (falco combos, marth combos, peach bull****.) there is always an answer to tough techniques as long as you have the execution and experience to pull it off.

good offense > good defense

as for dealing with pressure and that stuff. the way i try to play it is with offense over defense. knock him down and make it really really hard for him to get back up without getting *****. be creative with uair, utilt, weak bair and shine to extend your combos. 5% or 50%, just always go for the best damage possible (unless you can get better stage advantage with a spike or drill or something.)

don't **** up edge guards

make your edge guards vicious, never ever allow him to illusion into you without getting utilt -> baired, never let him recover onto the ledge if he firebirds at an angle below you. hint on dealing with firebirds: depending on what position they're in, there's a good chance they will angle their up+b above you and then fastfall down to the ledge. be patient as hell with your bairs, you need to ledgehop as late as possible and DI the correct way to cover as many of his firebird angles as possible. at medium percent you only have to execute one time and he's dead.

the out of shield game

out of shield game: you want to be really really good at shine oos for when he makes small spacing mistakes, as well as shieldgrabbing when he makes BIG mistakes (it happens from time to time, developing a strong reflex for it is smart cuz everyone makes mistakes.) don't really try to do usmnash oos. the timing is very hard, it only works vs. ******* with no tech skill or when they make a big mistake (grab often better.)

aerials out of your shield work but the spacing is ALWAYS very specific. if he crosses up your shield with an early-ish nair/dair, and he lands behind you out of range for shine, you should be able to freely kick him in the back of his head. being able to aerial out of shield but it takes some experience to see when it's applicable. so overall shine oos is the most versatile/useful as long as you can get good at it.

summary

the overall idea is: execute well (big damage combos, big edgeguarding,) **** him as hard as possible for every mistake he makes, don't rush in dumbly (don't have time to write a paragraph about this right now sry) and don't get frustrated if u **** up and die at 30% or sidestep on accident and take 70% from a combo.





i am so fking bored i just want diablo 3 to come out
This is exactly what I needed, thanks!

I don't plan to enter Melee when I go back to the states. I am just not dedicated enough to the game, I am a Brawler. I also have this problem that whenever I play Melee my Brawl execution drops a bunch. This won't help me at a big national/international which is when I'm coming back, I can't just simply "underestimate" (By playing Melee while preparing for a USA tournament) the other pros. I know it doesn't make sense since Melee is way more technical than Brawl, but that's my case. I wish I could play both games at a high level since I really, really love Melee, I growed up playing it with Fox and his green constume :(.

But I did played Jason in January, and it was very fun to play him. He 4 stocked me with Marth/Sheik no problem, but I could almost take games off of him in Fox dittos lol. I wonder how he can play both games with no problem at all, when I asked him, he said like "Dunno lol" haha.

What I mean with this is that I simply want to win the Melee tournament this weekend AND beat Zein in particular, since I have this kind of rivalry with him since last year, and I have never beated him in tournament, BUT I always come up very close to do so in Wf's/GF's sets, which is why I am preparing myself in stages he hates, or asking you, the pros, some cool tricks/strats, so that I can beat him this weekend.

Also, thanks for the tips Lovage :). Oh and I would love to play D3 as well, haha. Which my computer could run it, though. I can barely run League of Legends at super low settings, haha!

It's zein right?

You have a decent window to punish falco's pressure. If he comes in with a low aerial, then punish him after he shines. That's the best chance (assuming he doesn't double shine). If he does an early aerial, then punish that. Since shine oos is the fastest, it's your safest option.

If you can hit a d-air then go for it. You can combo stuff out of it

:phone:
Yes.

So my opportunities to punish Falco'spressure are:

Early aerials, shines and poorly spaced Lasers with a FH/SH depending of the moment he is doing it. For example if I know he's gonna laser I can just FH and hit him from above while he is on his laser animaion and get him off the stage, or if he's gonna do a retreating laser, I can just N-Air him, etc. Correct?

And then I punish depending of how he spaced it, and how much lag he has on his aerial. Correct? Also, thanks again bro =)

Also, what do you guys think of shielding Falco's laser then WD'ing back/forth/in place to not get out-spaced? Is this a decent idea? Or is it better to stay on the offensive and NOT allow Falco to do his thing, or better said, shoot lasers and pressure our loved Fox. Basically, like instead of dealing with Falco's stuff with shields and stuff, you can just simply "Move out of the box" and put him in awkwards positions, where it is more likely that he will make mistakes. And when he does a mistake I need to make sure to capitalize in the hardest way possible, and never miss any oportunity. That's the game plan, vs Falco, correct?
 

omgwtfToph

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Also, what do you guys think of shielding Falco's laser then WD'ing back/forth/in place to not get out-spaced? Is this a decent idea? Or is it better to stay on the offensive and NOT allow Falco to do his thing, or better said, shoot lasers and pressure our loved Fox. Basically, like instead of dealing with Falco's stuff with shields and stuff, you can just simply "Move out of the box" and put him in awkwards positions, where it is more likely that he will make mistakes. And when he does a mistake I need to make sure to capitalize in the hardest way possible, and never miss any oportunity. That's the game plan, vs Falco, correct?
I think you more or less have the right idea, yeah.
 

TSM ZeRo

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I think you more or less have the right idea, yeah.
Thanks. Also, what do you think about the first phrase? "Also, what do you guys think of shielding Falco's laser then WD'ing back/forth/in place to not get out-spaced? Is this a decent idea?" I would love your input Toph :).
 

omgwtfToph

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I was referring to that, too. I think that sort of shield-work is good because you minimize the time you're stuck in your shield and it makes it harder to Falco to start his approach/pressure.
 

ShroudedOne

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Oh cool. I'm not the only crazy one. I hate FD vs Fox.
I've always thought that Peach gets her ish pushed in by Fox on FD, but it sounds ridiculous when I say it out-loud. Nevertheless, I would rather fight him on either Yoshi's or Pokemon Stadium than Dreamland.
 

JPOBS

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just watched the MM. FC stagelist is really dumb. Mute city changes the game so much from the fundamentals of the other stages. No edges is really dumb.

and toph took 85% on his last stock from the cars for no good reason. FC is bunk
 

Warhawk

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It'd have been cooler if they experimented by adding hacked stages instead of stages formerly on the stage list, but it would be really difficult to get that many hacked wiis and kind of a hassle.
 

joeplicate

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over the tournament last weekend i realized my tech skill SUCKS HOLY *** BALLS




when i get scared, it's like fully HALF of the buttons i want to press don't come out
when i got back i had a nice practice sesh doing useful things that i had forgotten how to do consistently:
JC upsmashing consistently, at any point in my dash dance (****ing important)
short hopping when i'm afraid
working on fastfalls, etc

practice is dope

BUT
i wish i could practice defensive tech skill--recognizing the WAY in which you're getting ****ed up, and choosing the right DI, hitting the best techs, recognizing viable times to counterattack.

(e.g., a scary sheik is downsmashing your shield, and you drill out to punish them instead of sitting there in shield, WD'ing or rolling back like a PU$$ IN BOOTS)

i think that's the next level i gotta work on
 

Strong Badam

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aesirgod you have to wait through hitlag if you're doubleshining on shield/hit. 4 extra frames.
 

omgwtfToph

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just watched the MM. FC stagelist is really dumb. Mute city changes the game so much from the fundamentals of the other stages. No edges is really dumb.

and toph took 85% on his last stock from the cars for no good reason. FC is bunk
nahhh mute city is cool lol
 
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honestly we didnt play the stage very well at all. i agree its pretty terrible; mainly only cuz theres no ledges tho.

edit: i rewatched it and we werent doing that bad, but every time we got hit by the cars it was just us being dumb
 

omgwtfToph

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yeah the only time the cars **** you up without it being partially your fault is on the 3rd(?) lap at that one drop-off where the cars fall onto the main floating platform honestly. and that's for a very short period of time
 

Sinji

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To add to the falco pressure discussion, falco would most likely double shine if he is under a platform then waveland on it and come down with a bair for a shield poke behind you. FD is a good stage for fox because it is easier to read the falco's offensive strategy.
 
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To add to the falco pressure discussion, falco would most likely double shine if he is under a platform then waveland on it and come down with a bair for a shield poke behind you. FD is a good stage for fox because it is easier to read the falco's offensive strategy.
the same could be said about it being easier for falco to read foxs offensive strategy as well lol. fd is good for falco as well.
 

JPOBS

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The cars are just an aside as to why he stage is dumb. It's really the lack of edges that I was having trouble wrapping my head around.
 

omgwtfToph

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Sinji you have really weird/one-sided opinions on things sometimes.

Jpobs that's true but being able to go through the floor opens up other recovery options for spacies as well. Yeah, the stage does kind of **** over Falcon/Sheik (I'd say Marth but I'm not convinced Mute City is a bad stage for Marth) in that regard but that's why it's more or less a counterpick stage and will probably just get banned by those characters.

I'd have a lot more beef with the FC ruleset if there weren't 3 bans per player.
 

JPOBS

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I just think its strange that the FC ruleset is trying so hard to go against the standard we've set for melee and been progressing towards, just for the sake of nostalgia.

I mean, there are arguments to be made i favor of mute city testing certain kinds of skills (like you mention, it opens up other recovery options), but they certainly arent the kind of skills we've cared about the past 5 years.

I mean, its not a big deal, the tourny will be great regardless.

What's wrong with 3 bans? you think there should be more or less?
 

omgwtfToph

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I think you underestimate the adaptability of good players. I'm pretty confident the usual suspects are gonna do just as good, if not better. I think weird stages (with the exception of BS like Jungle Japes where you can randomly die) widen, not decrease, the skill gap between great players and okay ones. Not to mention the way the ban system works, most matchups are going to tend towards pretty much all neutral stages anyway. Exception is the ICs who get ****ed by the ruleset lol.

And I'm saying 3 bans is good cuz it turns what would otherwise be a counterpick war into pretty much the current ruleset lol. Like look at Fox vs Peach. Fox is gonna have to ban Brinstar, Mute City and Jungle Japes (japes is *** for fox vs peach lol, me and sw tried that stage). Peach has to ban MK2, Rainbow Cruise and probably Pokemon Stadium (unless she'd rather ban Yoshi's or something). So oh hey you're left with the 5 neutrals.
 

Warhawk

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Like look at Fox vs Peach. Fox is gonna have to ban Brinstar, Mute City and Jungle Japes (japes is *** for fox vs peach lol, me and sw tried that stage). Peach has to ban MK2, Rainbow Cruise and probably Pokemon Stadium (unless she'd rather ban Yoshi's or something). So oh hey you're left with the 5 neutrals.
Wait so their stage list has Brinstar, Mute City, Jungle Japes, and Mushroom Kingdom II, but not Kongo Jungle 64? Lol that strikes me as really odd.
 

Bing

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lol wow I watched that MM set between Toph and SW. Honestly Toph, you got wrecked by the cars lol. You'd take a stock and then take 60% before Otto even touched back down onto the stage.

Also I've been working on waveshine and things like that, just looking to find little ways to add on a little bit more damage in the waveshine, and I seem to finding that waveshine jab repeat works pretty well. Any thoughts? I've been doing this against Falcon because for some reason, I suck at comboing Falcon.
 
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even one waveshine -> jab wont work reliably unless falcon is at high enough percent for it to pop him up into a combo, but at that percent youd be better off diong something stronger. falcon or anyone else can crouch cancel the jab and immediately grab you. just waveshine until you get to the end of the stage and up smash lol
 

Bing

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I sort of figured that but it works in training and on cpus, havent been able to try it on cpus yet.
Also I wondered this for awhile, which works better, Waveshine usmash or waveshine grab?
 

DerfMidWest

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aesirgod you have to wait through hitlag if you're doubleshining on shield/hit. 4 extra frames.
thats what I thought.
could anybody record their hands as they multishien on shield so that I can get a general idea of the timing?
or if there is already a video somewhere, that'd be cool too.
 

Bing

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thats what I thought.
could anybody record their hands as they multishien on shield so that I can get a general idea of the timing?
or if there is already a video somewhere, that'd be cool too.
Pretty sure a recording of hands would be kind of pointless, hands would be moving so fast that you wouldnt really be able to get a timing down or anything, its just knowledge and practice.
 

omgwtfToph

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waveshine utilt ***** if you're a Technical *** Mofo (don't do it at too low % though... I was asking unknown about this a while back haha)

but yeah in general waveshine usmash is **** cuz it sets up an easy techchase, waveshine grab is **** if you need a grab for whatever reason, waveshine to the edge and dsmash is **** above 40-50%, waveshine to the ledge to usmash is **** because it tricks their DI and you're either gonna get a fat edgeguard or a fat combo

edit: oh yeah, but Bing, I would generally tend to favor waveshine usmash over waveshine grab at low percents simply because uthrow into stuff doesn't technically combo on Falcon at very low percents whereas usmash always leads to a good techchase setup. that aside, though, uthrow combos into usmash (if you choose to grab) and usmash leads into a pretty easy techchase (if you choose to usmash) so honestly at the end of the day it's fairly interchangeable, just experiment and see what you like better
 

Bing

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Okay well I've always been doing U-smash anyways because it adds more guaranteed damage and can combo(I want to say almost) as equally well as u-throw in this situation, just wanted an outside opinion.
 

S l o X

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(on shield) nair / dair > shine > wavedash back.

i don't see it very often but since i suck at shield pressure i've been experimenting with things other than just dash dancing out of shield grab range or a move oos range. thoughts?

i actually meant to post this in the falco boards but i guess this works too.
 
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