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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

MarsFool!

Smash Lord
Joined
May 23, 2007
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Space Animals, Florida
Frame perfect isnt that hard. So youre telling me that you see people doing frame perfect drill shines quite often. riiiiiggghhhttt... Frame perfect as In the first frame possible dair first frame possible L cancel, First frame possible shine, first frame possible jump cancel the shine, first frame possible dair again. Thats not really all that possible. Not that difficult eh? Why dont people break shields with fox pillars then? Or why isnt everybody on the face of the Earth a flatland infinite master then? Youre trying to argue something thats not only close to impossible to do the fact that 1/60 of a second is one fifth of the time it takes you to move your fingers for even the most technical players out there, but will NEVER be consistent in Foxs useful metagame. Less Head in the clouds more reality please.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
Joined
Mar 4, 2008
Messages
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OH
Does Dair used on the very ledge of the stage hit slightly below the stage? As in could it hit people who are sweetspotting?
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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So theoretically, say if Falco of Fox was using his forward B to sweetspot the edge, you could time a dair to hit them down out of it? I'm trying to see if I can reliably use a ledge cancelled Dair followed by a shine spike. If you start just slightly away from the ledge, short hop, dair and DI toward the ledge as you're falling it's not too hard all things considered. But I don't have any humans to try it on and computers don't sweetspot. I guess it would probably be really situational even if you could pull it off but how sweet would it be?!?
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
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Why would you ever want to do that when you can just shine spike or do a rising nair...
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
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Dec 21, 2006
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Real life obviously isn't even divided into frames, but the rate at which a human eye can percieve the world is much higher than 60fps, iirc. Also, doing something frame perfect isn't all that hard. It's doing it consistently that's the problem.
I think some people are confusing "frame perfect timing" with "frame perfect reaction time." The former means being able to time things precisely on the correct frame, whereas the latter means being able to react to things in one frame. A lot of people have frame perfect timing for a lot of things. Perfect wavedashes require frame perfect timing and many people can do those consistently. Infinite shines require frame perfect timing and many people can do those consistently (at least, for a few seconds). But absolutely no one can react with frame perfect timing. Not even close. The problem with Fox's dair pillar is that the timing for the L-cancel and the shine varies depending on how many of the dairs hit the shield. So the timing is variable, and when I said no one could do frame perfect pillars I meant it's because you would have to react to how many hits of the dair connect on the shield, which brings us into "frame perfect reaction time" which no one is even close to. Still, one might think with practice you could connect a consistent number of the dair hits on the shield, but this is impossible, because it depends on the shield size, which depends on the character as well as whether the shield is a light shield, full shield, or somewhere in between.

Still, some people can probably pillar shields fairly consistently, but the number of dair=> shines needed to break a shield is retardedly high because of the tiny shield decay compared to say, Falco's pillar. Which is why Fox's pillar is totally pointless. Especially since your enemy can just buffer a roll or a spot dodge while you're trying to do eight frame perfect dair shines on his shield.
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
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Correct me if im wrong: There are 2 frames of lag between the controller and the console, meaning that the delay of the controller to tell the game the inputs you're doing is 2 frames.
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
Joined
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Correct me if im wrong: There are 2 frames of lag between the controller and the console, meaning that the delay of the controller to tell the game the inputs you're doing is 2 frames.
There's no lag between the controller and the console. There is a 1-frame delay between when you press a button and when the action is performed, just because the game only starts actions on the next available frame. So if you pressed a button between frame 2 and 3 of a given second the action would start on frame 3. I think this is how it works at least. :ohwell:
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
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Oh yeah... I remember M2k said something like that on his statistic thread. So there's no way to do some stuff that requires extremely fast commands with very little frame time to input because there's 1 frame delay...
 

4 Aces

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 23, 2007
Messages
892
Does turnaround waveshine delay the timing of the wavedash to a noticeable extent? I've always had trouble waveshining in the opposite direction.

I also have trouble waveshining backwards. Should I manually move the control stick back to neutral then to an angle, or should I let the stick go back to neutral by itself?
 

brawlpro

Smash Master
Joined
Jul 2, 2007
Messages
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Does turnaround waveshine delay the timing of the wavedash to a noticeable extent? I've always had trouble waveshining in the opposite direction.
Um, no, you just have to get the timing down....and stuff.

I also have trouble waveshining backwards. Should I manually move the control stick back to neutral then to an angle, or should I let the stick go back to neutral by itself?
I do it as follows: downB --> Let go of stick--> X --> tilt stick downright/left--> L. And I seem to never miss a backward wshine. :bee:
 

Shai Hulud

Smash Lord
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Does turnaround waveshine delay the timing of the wavedash to a noticeable extent? I've always had trouble waveshining in the opposite direction.
Turning around in shine takes a minimum of three frames before you can jump (and therefore wavedash) out of it.

I also have trouble waveshining backwards. Should I manually move the control stick back to neutral then to an angle, or should I let the stick go back to neutral by itself?
What I do, and what I imagine most people do, is to let go of the stick after hitting down B so it returns to neutral. You can hit X/Y immediately, as you don't need to angle the stick until some time between the jump and the airdodge (three frames, for a perfect wavedash). The main problem people have with reverse wavedashes is turning around in the shine. Just make sure you jump BEFORE you rotate the stick left/right, otherwise you'll turn around and may get stuck in the shine due to the 3-frame turn around lag. The easiest way to avoid this particular problem is to release the stick after shining to let it revert to neutral. Unless your control stick is really unresponsive this should be plenty fast.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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Does dash attack grabbing (I think that's what it's called?) have a noticable advantage over JC grabs in some cases? I don't think I've really seen many people use it and I don't know much about how its range or speed compares to JC grabs.
 

Falcinho

Smash Ace
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Yes it's called boost grabbing.
You cancel your dashattack with R/L so that you get a short boost be4 you grab
 

LOL_Master

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Apr 9, 2007
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silent wolf out teched the guy that was arguing with him on youtube on his vid, the one where he just does stuff by himself not hurting stuff
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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JC grabs out of shine are giving me some trouble. Does anyone have any advice on how to make it easier? Up on the analog and Z works fastest for me because I have a hard time getting my thumb to X or Y as fast as I want to but it's not working out very consistently for me. Suggestions?
 

Falcinho

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It's really not that hard.
Just practice it slowly and then get faster and faster when you got the timing down
 

brawlpro

Smash Master
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Florissant, St. Louis, MO Tech Skill: Over 9000
JC grabs out of shine are giving me some trouble. Does anyone have any advice on how to make it easier? Up on the analog and Z works fastest for me because I have a hard time getting my thumb to X or Y as fast as I want to but it's not working out very consistently for me. Suggestions?
uhh..jc grabs out of a shine aren't that useful if you don't wavedash out of your shine first..and if you did wavedash out of your shine...your thumb would already be on x/y
 

BlackPanther

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 11, 2005
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Peoria, Illinois
uhh..jc grabs out of a shine aren't that useful if you don't wavedash out of your shine first..and if you did wavedash out of your shine...your thumb would already be on x/y
Actually jc grabs out of the are very useful because most of the time your opponent will try to be shieldin and if you have your shine on their shield all you do is do the jump cancel grab, it's a lot faster than wavedashing first I got so many people with that at FC then I stopped using it for some reason lol =/.
 

Tyr_03

Smash Champion
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Yeah I find it really useful after drillshines. But the times I have trouble with it is mostly when I dash, shine, JC grab. It's not exactly an essential technique but it's sweet looking and it annoys me when I mess it up.
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
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uhh..jc grabs out of a shine aren't that useful if you don't wavedash out of your shine first..and if you did wavedash out of your shine...your thumb would already be on x/y
wtf are u talking about niga?

aerial>shine>jc grab = too good
 

brawlpro

Smash Master
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wtf are u talking about niga?

aerial>shine>jc grab = too good
I thought he was talking about chars that don't fall from a shine, so was saying wavedashing out of the shine then grabbing them instead of hurrying to try to catch them right after the shine with a grab would be easier, but I just said it in a different wording. Oh and I'm not black.
 

Oskurito

Smash Lord
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I thought he was talking about chars that don't fall from a shine, so was saying wavedashing out of the shine then grabbing them instead of hurrying to try to catch them right after the shine with a grab would be easier, but I just said it in a different wording. Oh and I'm not black.
lol im not black either (remember when you call me niga...)

SW edit - brawls dumb.
 
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