Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[FoxLisk]

Darc,

thank you for that explanation. I think most of the disagreement arose over the ambiguity of the word 'camping.' i think of DDing and bairing and waiting for whiffed moves as just standard play, not camping, so of course that's solid. I do still think it's important to put enough pressure on the jiggs that she can't just get to her preferred setups (like, a little above your head and able to come down while you're grounded kind of things), but maybe I'm wrong at higher levels of play.


Also.. when you say uthrow uair combos to 111%, when is that figure? 'Cause i totally believe that puff can end up at 111% after the upair, but I have never managed to connect it when the puff is above about 95% before the grab. If that's true I'ma have to practice O.o

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i think its 111% before the grab. I didnt believe it either when unknown posted it like 6 months ago, but i did some tests with AR and it does work. Might be 111% after the hit, but regardless its kill range on every stage.

 

[RaynEX]

Yup, it's 111% before the grab.



DDing inherently relates to camping. When you DD you usually aren't planning to attack first. That's called playing defensively. That's called camping. When Jiggs floats around in the same spot spamming bair, that's also camping. She doesn't bair towards you, she waits for you to run into it. That's why so many players have problems with it.

It's hard to tackle this one because camping is such a broad term.

Foxlisk you have the right idea. As I explicitly stated in my previous block of text:

I don't advocate this as being the best strategy, but its a good one. Especially vs. some of the better Puffs, when getting in feels like an incessant uphill battle.

It's not a strategy meant for every player. Most of us couldn't be bothered to camp to such an extreme. Maybe that's why Jman does so well in MUs where it works.

Food for thought.

 

[AustinRC]

Sorry for not lurking but I have a small question. Okay soooo when I nair or bair out of shield my opponent usually dashes away and comes back and grabs me I'm doing it fast enough I try to shine but they still get me so I started DI'ing all the way away from them however I'm having a lot of trouble doing it consistantly. inb4 practice it more or what not because if I cant find an easier way then yes I will just practice my *** off. But what are the ways that some if any of you do it. I usually use the C-stick for bair and Z for nair out of shield. Another thing thats been killing me is if my back is facing them and I'm to the left of them I cant short hop out of shield then bair with the c stick and DI out any tips on making this possible? I've seen MANY people do it however maybe my hands are just not fast enough. Anyway thanks in advance! <3

 

[ArcNatural]

I've explained my concept about l-canceling vs Jiggs before to Dr. Peepee regarding the Jiggs matchup except that he would be Falco in this case. I'll try to apply the same here except it's a little less viable because shine does have it's uses vs Jiggs longer than Falco's shine does.

When you land an aerial against Jiggs, especially if she is in the air (low or high) why would you ever want to shine? I can understand if you think you can bait a shield grab and shine tech chase that's fine.

But I'm beginning to find this point a little redundant. Against Jiggs who can punish SO HARD for a little mess up what is the benefit of trying to shffl nair shine as opposed to shffl nair dash away/through? By doing this, you can still punish a whiff grab, as well as guarantee the DI from the throw.

There are a lot of situations where this should take priority over shining, simply because the act of messing up either by aerialing high on shield or bad L-cancel timing, trying to shine makes you not DI at all(since you have to press down+B). So if your at low %, vs Jiggs at 60+% why would it be optimal to try such a risky gain over dashing which can arguably punish a grab attempt harder than shine could (DD upsmash/grab)?

I believe that guaranteeing throw DI at low % would be MUCH more optimal than simply believing you will not mess up/miss space.

There are optimal ways to also be able to shine and still get the DI you need. Against Jiggs you should simply ALWAYS hold forward immediately after shining while waiting for the JC of the shine. A lot of players picked up the habit of being neutral (which is ideally better suited to avoid messing up if you want to say waveshine backwards/jump backwards or shffl nairing). Against Jigglypuff I believe you need to take the precaution of ensuring DI in these cases as you can get grabbed out of most of these situations regardless with good game sense timing.

I think what I'm really trying to point out is what are the cons to NOT ensuring the DI in close situations? There are plenty of offensive options for Fox that he can do that allow him to keep consistent pressure while guaranteeing DI.

What Dr. Peepee did vs Hbox as Falco where he stopped shining at many percentages while ensuring movement was very useful, I don't see why Fox can not do the same.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Cover all options

Compensate for the chance of mistake

Plan ahead

 

[Silent Wolf]

made a little invisible shine vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgRWRTQbus0

check the description for stuff

 

[Brookman]

I landed the up throw @ 111 today in a casual game. Irony, I suppose.

 

[FoxLisk]

Yup, it's 111% before the grab.



DDing inherently relates to camping. When you DD you usually aren't planning to attack first. That's called playing defensively. That's called camping. When Jiggs floats around in the same spot spamming bair, that's also camping. She doesn't bair towards you, she waits for you to run into it. That's why so many players have problems with it.

It's hard to tackle this one because camping is such a broad term.

Foxlisk you have the right idea. As I explicitly stated in my previous block of text:



It's not a strategy meant for every player. Most of us couldn't be bothered to camp to such an extreme. Maybe that's why Jman does so well in MUs where it works.

Food for thought.

111%. Well mother****. Gotta get on my grind.

Also thank you for actually understanding what I was saying and not just flaming me.

 

[RaynEX]

made a little invisible shine vid

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SgRWRTQbus0

check the description for stuff

Love that you're still finding cool things about this character.

111%. Well mother****. Gotta get on my grind.

Also thank you for actually understanding what I was saying and not just flaming me.

Well someone has to put out dem fires.

For all the **** Fox mains get we have one of the most hype boards. Get at us.

 

[KirbyKaze]

It's amazing that despite having that influx of Falco players, the Falco board continues to be special.

In their own little way.



Still not as bad as the Sheik, Mario, or Pichu board though.

 

[ZoSo]

Falco noob scum.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

what buttons do u guys use/how do u shine > bair w/ fox so both moves hit?

I keep trying to shine > control stick up > c-stick to bair, but im jumping to high and the bair doesnt hit. how do u guys do it?

 

[ZoSo]

That's how I do it and IMO it's the best way, but you have to be really fast and they have to DI into it.

 

[StealthyGunnar]

alright. ya i got somewhat slower hands so its just easier for me. i guess ill just have to practice that, as well as my shdl. cant get that down either, my fingers r just too slow. i can maybe do it 1/10 times.

 

[Ocho(*8*)]

you dont have to practice shdl or shine bair. if youre playing serious than just bair instead of risking the shine bair missing. and its generally understood that shl is better than double laser except for maybe some unimportant exceptions.

if you practice then id work on fast aerials and shines and all the types of movement.

oh, and if you really wanna shine bair i think the trick is to do it when theyre above your body still. it will be much easier if its the top of the shine that connects. i do it with tap jump and cstick.

 

[omgwtfToph]

Falco noob scum.

Speaking of which, you have a great signature. LOL

 

[StealthyGunnar]

you dont have to practice shdl or shine bair. if youre playing serious than just bair instead of risking the shine bair missing. and its generally understood that shl is better than double laser except for maybe some unimportant exceptions.

if you practice then id work on fast aerials and shines and all the types of movement.

oh, and if you really wanna shine bair i think the trick is to do it when theyre above your body still. it will be much easier if its the top of the shine that connects. i do it with tap jump and cstick.

i just wanna be able to do shine > bair, i dont plan on using it in tournies. also, i want to shdl cuz i think it could come in handy.

 

[Kanelol]

mario boards ****

for shine bair and shdl you just need to practice tech skill literally all day

 

[FoxLisk]

shdl took me like 20 minutes to learn wtf

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

shine bair is super useful. Not for the combo, but shine turn around bair is a great edge guard and combo finisher.

 

[RaynEX]

Anyone get into the habit of running off and shine -> bairing, only to miss with both hits?

I've let on opponents back on the stage so many times this way.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

l2shinebairbetter

 

[JPOBS]

Anyone get into the habit of running off and shine -> bairing, only to miss with both hits?

I've let on opponents back on the stage so many times this way.

yea lol.


but now in this phase where im all about the shine->turnaround->waveland off-> dj Bair, a la zhu.

 

[Kanelol]

i like plain old shine -> turnaround -> waveland off -> bair

looks cool as ****

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JCd_sGSr59M#t=0m16s

 

[JPOBS]

oh u fancy huh?

 

[KirbyKaze]

man i'm so bad i can't do any of that

 

[RaynEX]

KK we all know you're good.


also


this is the last time I'm succumbing to your compliment bait tactics. lol that's twice tonight already

 

[Brookman]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3KpUO6t9qQ

 

[KirbyKaze]

lol that's twice tonight already

That's what she said.

 

[Brookman]

i am using my better judgment by not posting what I just wrote.

 

[Rubyiris]

shdl took me like 20 minutes to learn wtf

learning is one thing. mastering is another. Can you say that you can SHDL, with at least a 90% success rate in a match for an extended period of time, seamlessly with that 20 minutes you took to learn?

If not, then you should still be practicing, or better yet, just doing SHL since its better.

 

[Brookman]

I'm getting fairly good at retreating, reversed short hop double laser using the control stick exclusively.

edit: I stlil feel like shffl lasers are the best.


Test concept VS. Falco: When falco moves in with lasers Dash away, Space In shield for BAIR (this should be attempted at various distances from too to close - far enough away to space bair shffl and fsmash while being hard to punish. The trick is going to be getting very good and jumping out the shield vs. the lasers stun. To do this I suggest the C stick. Should be easy enough to buffer jump with C up and then bair with C left, no.?? Then L cancel with your shield button and react appropriately.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

i actually think its much better to learn the shield stun timings manually. At least, i learned them from doing lots of WD shield camping with marth vs falco

 

[FoxLisk]

learning is one thing. mastering is another. Can you say that you can SHDL, with at least a 90% success rate in a match for an extended period of time, seamlessly with that 20 minutes you took to learn?

If not, then you should still be practicing, or better yet, just doing SHL since its better.

i could back when i used it. i never shdl anymore. i dont really shoot too many lasers these days, and when i do full hop triples are generally what i choose.

seriously, shdl is not a difficult technique to learn to be fluent with very fast. it's JUST speed, there's virtually no element of timing involved, so it's relatively easy compared to many things.

 

[JPOBS]

shdl with control stick is easy mode.

I rarely mess up, and can do stationary, reversals, retreating reversals, approaching what have you.

they arent difcult at all if you use the d-stick

 

[Brookman]

honestly, i think short hop down air shine infinites with inversions are easy mode and shdls with the control stick are more like eating apple sauce, but thats just me.

 

[Palpi]

I SHDL with control stick but I turn around with single lasers. It isn't too hard.

 

[Sinji]

I know after a thunders combo i upsmash. what i cant understand is what should i do after usmash. any advice?

 

[Kanelol]

I know after a thunders combo i upsmash. what i cant understand is what should i do after usmash. any advice?

uair instead