Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[KirbyKaze]

u-throw uair --> follow is really underrated.

u-throw u-tilt --> uair --> uair is actually pretty good, same with u-throw uair uair. it won't kill ever at the percents it combos, but it racks damage pretty well. and because it leaves them above you, you're in a good position to try and go for the kill from there. u-smashing/u-tilting/bairing them as they're descending can be good ways of killing them or setting up kills.

u-throw to 50 u-throw u-tilt u-tilt u-tilt is good vs no di (if they di you just regrab or dash cancel/wd u-tilt) but then the trouble is that the final step of that is a little complicated because they can legitimately just di in a way that keeps the kill part from being a true combo. but fox has **** tech chase so it's like whatever.

intrinsically i cannot support u-throw triple u-smash on fd because u-throw u-smash u-throw u-throw u-throw to 50 then big combo with up moves is better. i don't see the point in u-throw u-smash unless you're facing the edge or something and can force a big combo or get a free forced di away. cg is just so much better. it's a cg.

ending cgs at the edge i dunno. i suck at it. i just pick u-smash, f-smash, or shine. usually the first or last. and either i try to do a big combo or do a shine gimp because of the awesome angle.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

uthrow at 100%+ is a kill. no DI = uair kill. DI = dash usmash kill

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Fox is such a fun character, when you combo you either play guitar hero (press buttons with a specific timing with no reaction required) or you play duck hunt (throw them up and shoot)

 

[Tomacawk]

fox combos take insane reaction time, are you serious? he has insane combo potential but you have to read DI after nearly every hit after the low %s and use the right move to not only hit them, but hit them and allow yourself to hit them again afterwards. factor in platforms + proper fast fall/double jump usage in order to land fast enough to continue comboing and you have a massive skill requirement

 

[Brookman]

on the topic of up tilt vs. fast fallers, this is something I've taken from marth players:

Since fox's up tilt can be escaped by DI'ing towards his front you simply turn around to mess with DI. really simple yet really effective.


As for lucky winning the set, I was just trying to get my head around the four stcok on FD.


Back on the topic of FD's neutrality: I feel that, as the only stage without platforms, it deviates from the standard of gameplay so dramatically that it deserves to be relegated to counter pick status.

this is just my opinion.


but I'm in favor of stages like jungle japes/floats/mute city/ onett being legal counter picks based on the counter picking process (loser picks stage - winner picks character - loser picks character)

If you are brought to a stage that puts your character at a tremendous disadvantage you are always allowed to change your character selection.


*massive shrug*

 

[KirbyKaze]

You can edgeguard Sheik with U-tilt because of that property.

You jump onstage when she appears on the ground, turn to the edge, then U-tilt her. If she DIs against the U-tilt she gets combo'd into something, if not she goes offstage. Depending on percent, you can combo her if she goes offstage too, making it painful for her.

Not sure when it's better than other stuff though.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

meh, a tremendous disadvantage for any matchup because of a stage sounds pretty unfair. just cause you lost doesn't mean you should get a free win after.

 

[omgwtfToph]

playing exclusively FD in japan makes me realize how fair it is, lol

like, spacies still win tourneys, and there's an even better RPS sort of system in the top tier with marth > fox/falco > sheik > marth

the only character that gets the shaft, really, is jigglypuff. and that's not such a big deal :P not to mention puff's disadvantages aren't really THAT huge on fd imo



WELL samus and ganon kinda blow on FD too lol but who cares about mid tiers >.>

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

fox combos take insane reaction time, are you serious? he has insane combo potential but you have to read DI after nearly every hit after the low %s and use the right move to not only hit them, but hit them and allow yourself to hit them again afterwards. factor in platforms + proper fast fall/double jump usage in order to land fast enough to continue comboing and you have a massive skill requirement

I just worry about moving as soon as I hit and reading DI while I move. The only hard thing to react to is sometimes when you start a shine combo you don't know which way your shine will hit them so I guess the "best" thing to do would be to wavedash in place then use dash to follow-up (probably into a block string), but in practice I always just guess which way they are gonna go and wavedash that way. If I guess wrong I've already spaced myself away from them.

 

[JPOBS]

i dont think "oh you can just switch hcharacters" is a good enough reason to allow some stages.
if a stage is so bad it basically forces you to switch charatcers, thats a pretty good indication that stage shouldnt be legal to begin with.

idgaf about "character diversity" in the metgame. no items, fox only, final destination please.

 

[Brookman]

nah, I'm just gonna play marth and CG and gimp you all day instead.

gl;hf?

 

[ZoSo]

Sveet: Blockstrings don't exist in Smash.

Toph: I'm not sure I understand your definition of "fair."

I mean, I agree that FD is probably "fairer" simply because it makes a lot of low tiers with chaingrabs more viable, but mostly it just leads to stale gameplay, imo.

 

[Rubyiris]

FD is such a boring, gay stage. Even when playing low tiers/peach/marth I prefer yoshis/battlefield.

100% Dreamland, all day.

MK2 gets honorable mention for character dittos.

 

[ZoSo]

MK2 IS good for dittos. Glad I'm not the only one who's noticed.

 

[Brookman]

i dont think "oh you can just switch hcharacters" is a good enough reason to allow some stages.
if a stage is so bad it basically forces you to switch charatcers, thats a pretty good indication that stage shouldnt be legal to begin with.

idgaf about "character diversity" in the metgame. no items, fox only, final destination please.

Pound 4: chu vs. mango g3: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VNtyju7cYVw

----------------------
whole set: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EssZowtcXp0

 

[JPOBS]

im not sure what you wanted me to take from that brookman?

 

[Brookman]

if a stage is so bad it basically forces you to switch charatcers, thats a pretty good indication that stage shouldnt be legal to begin with.

In your opinion, does this rule hold true for counter picks?

 

[JPOBS]

In your opinion, does this rule hold true for counter picks?

yes.
They arguably affect a very small few matchups to the point of "must" switches (such as ice climbers) but these are rare.

the banned stages all (imo) affect a much larger number matchups to the breaking point.

the playability of a stage is inversely proportional to the number of matchups it dramitically changes. (the more matchups its changes alters to the point of destruction, the less playable it is)

i guess we've developed a threshold for how many matchups can be altered before the stage becomes completely banned.

 

[Brookman]

i guess the way we ban stages is completely random.

fixed/ 10

 

[JPOBS]

i wouldnt completely disagree with that. only because if brinstar was switched with mute city, and RC with corneria, i dont think that would alter the metagame or mechanics of a set at all.

but when you start having multiple "too good" stages on a stage list to the point were a win in the first game basically results in an auto loss second game, then auto win 3rd game, i think things just get ********.

 

[FoxLisk]

the counterpicks arent particularly fair. peach and jiggs get dreamland for free because most characters have to ban brinstar. marth gets yoshi's for free against fast fallers because they have to ban fd. etc. it would probably be fairer with only the five neutrals (possibly adding ps, although that might be too unfair) legal.

less fun, but more fair.

 

[Rubyiris]

why do people think dl is somehow good for peach/jigs? They live what, an extra 20/30%, but lose like, everything that makes them good in the first place?

any character with better mobility at least soft-counters them on that stage. :\

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

why do people think dl is somehow good for peach/jigs? They live what, an extra 20/30%, but lose like, everything that makes them good in the first place?

any character with better mobility at least soft-counters them on that stage. :\

..it IS really good for those characters, and i don't see how they lose anything? It's not like they're ceiling-killers.

wait you mean because it's a bigger stage? the stage is a 'little' bigger than the average level, but it's the actual kill-zones that are far as **** out, which is what really helps them.

'cause i'm pretty sure going to dreamland as puff, you hardly "lose what makes her good"

 

[Kanelol]

Stage tier list

God tier:
Final D: 9.3
Yoshi's Story: 9.3
Good tier
Pokemon Stadium: 8.8
Dreamland: 8.6
FoD: 8.3
Ok tier:
KJ64: 7.7
**** tier:
****ING BATTLE FIELD: 0

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

are you talking about for fox? or in general? take it to the 'the most neutral stage' thread :3

 

[Brookman]

why do people think dl is somehow good for peach/jigs? They live what, an extra 20/30%, but lose like, everything that makes them good in the first place?

Any character with better mobility at least soft-counters them on that stage. :\

this .


camping the top platform on dream land vs. peach/puff and lasering is just delightful.

 

[Rubyiris]

Puff and Peach are vastly slower in comparison to every other high/top tier character in the game. Fox, Falco, Falcon, and Sheik's biggest advantage over Puff and Peach is their mobility.

Dreamland is problematic for peach/puff because of the increased room to maneuver. peach and puff cannot reliably approach these faster characters when they take to the platforms, whilst the aforementioned characters can just wait for an opening and poke at them.

The kill zones being so far out should make no difference, and often times don't. They have the illusion of being helpful since it extends their life by about 30% on average, but most of that is going to be accumulated when they're being edge guarded, mitigating any "advantage" they had from the larger stage in the first place. In case they do make it back, you've done the percentage necessary to kill them anyway, and you're in control of the stage.

Peach and Puff benefit from smaller stages. Sure they die a lower percentages on stages like YS, but with little to no room for the faster characters to maneuver, peach/puff can do what they do best without having to deal with the headaches DL, and to a lesser extent, BF causes.

Trahh, your thinking is really out-dated. This isn't 2005/2006. This is 2010, and people don't suck anymore.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

my thinking is out dated. lol'skissssssssssssssssssssssssss

Puff and Peach are vastly slower in comparison to every other high/top tier character in the game. Fox, Falco, Falcon, and Sheik's biggest advantage over Puff and Peach is their mobility.

Dreamland is problematic for peach/puff because of the increased room to maneuver. peach and puff cannot reliably approach these faster characters when they take to the platforms, whilst the aforementioned characters can just wait for an opening and poke at them.

The kill zones being so far out should make no difference, and often times don't. They have the illusion of being helpful since it extends their life by about 30% on average, but most of that is going to be accumulated when they're being edge guarded, mitigating any "advantage" they had from the larger stage in the first place. In case they do make it back, you've done the percentage necessary to kill them anyway, and you're in control of the stage.

Peach and Puff benefit from smaller stages. Sure they die a lower percentages on stages like YS, but with little to no room for the faster characters to maneuver, peach/puff can do what they do best without having to deal with the headaches DL, and to a lesser extent, BF causes.

Trahh, your thinking is really out-dated. This isn't 2005/2006. This is 2010, and people don't suck anymore.

i dont really feel like arguing this anymore

You're basically saying that anyone who thinks DL is good for peach/puff think out dated and that the stage really isn't good for them.

lastly though, you say their mobility is more-so restricted on this level. why do you have the impression that the actual stage itself is so big in comparison to the others? The blastboxes around the level are a different story, but that only helps jiggs/peach.

 

[Rubyiris]

so you agree that if a character has better mobility than jiggs or peach, that they atleast 'soft-counter' them? What does soft-counter even mean if your still getting harder-countered?

Oh my god you're so ****ing dense and close-minded. Earth to 2006. Shiz is no-longer the best Falco, and DL is Fox/Falco's BEST neutral, and Peach/Puff's WORST.

Stage tier list

God tier:
Final D: 9.3
Yoshi's Story: 9.3
Good tier
Pokemon Stadium: 8.8
Dreamland: 8.6
FoD: 8.3
Ok tier:
KJ64: 7.7
**** tier:
****ING BATTLE FIELD: 0

Going to correct this:

God Tier:
Dreamland's Platforms
Rainbow Cruise in general
Kongo Jungle 64's Platforms

Neutral Tier:
Battlefield's Platforms
Brinstar's Platforms

O.K. Tier:
Pokemon Stadium "Grass" and "Water" transformations.
Fountain of Dreams with platforms raised.
Yoshi's Story

Get yo' *** chaingrabbed Tier:

Pokemon Stadium
Final Destination
Dreamland center stage
Kongo Jungle 64 center stage

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Dreamland is significantly larger than the standard stage.

I agree with ruby about DL being fox's best neutral


edit- wheres the broken as **** tier for mountain transformation?

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Dreamland is significantly larger than the standard stage.

I agree with ruby about DL being fox's best neutral


edit- wheres the broken as **** tier for mountain transformation?

i'm not trying to argue this but more so just ask, cause i'm clearly missing something, but how is DL fox's best neutral?

 

[Rubyiris]

I covered that already. You're just, for whatever arbitrary reason(s), refusing to believe anything I say.

 

[Brookman]

DL has been my favorite neutral/counter pick as fox since like 2005.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I covered that already. You're just, for whatever arbitrary reason(s), refusing to believe anything I say.

gah, your snotty attitude personality makes discussion too tense, i'm over it

 

[Brookman]

to be fair, he literally cover all those points.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

to be fair, he literally cover all those points.

of how it's the best stage for fox? because he's gets more mobility? i definitely agree that more mobility can help, but i don't see how that justifies to make that fox's best level. he didn't cover every point at all as to how its the best. he covered mobility on a stage helps.

 

[Rubyiris]

So a stage that boosts everything that makes fox good doesn't make it his best neutral?

if we're talking stages overall, then KJ64 and RC have huge, obvious advantages for Fox.

 

[Brookman]

here's mango vs hbox from apex

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2gEaZZnovQk

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

Its so easy to camp people on DL. Its also much easier to escape edge traps. Usmash and uthrow uair only kill 10-15% later, but I get most of my kills from edge guarding anyways. Oh yeah, its a lot easier to avoid simply being pushed off the stage and getting systematically edge guarded on DL.

 

[FoxLisk]

fox sux vs puff on dl because uthrow uair stops comboing before kill % so instead of puff dying at 80%, she dies at like 140 to a bair or you fish for usmashes and lose all your stocks a la m2k

i dont see why saying a few generalizations, ignoring their ramifications, and then being condescending makes you think you're right