Tomacawk
Smash Master
you're talking about tink?
if tink is a bad falcon then there are only 4 good falcons
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Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-
- Thread starter Silent Wolf
- Start date
if tink is a bad falcon then there are only 4 good falcons
Fortress | Sveet
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ChivalRuse
Smash Hero
Yea d-smash is 6 frames faster than f-smash and has a better trajectory anyway, unless you throw techs into the mix, in which case f-smash would be better since they'd be DIing it down.
Some good Falcons are GamerGuitarist7, g-regulate, Smoke2Jointz, Ace, Nakamaru ... I could go on.
Some good Falcons are GamerGuitarist7, g-regulate, Smoke2Jointz, Ace, Nakamaru ... I could go on.
JPOBS
Smash Hero
he's just very...unique. he doesnt make the same...optimal...decisions as other falcons. i can kinda see what brookman is talking about his style is really wierd
hax? scar? GG7? lol
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
tomacawk did you just try and imply that tink is top 5 falcon in the world? that's silly.
MarsFool!
Smash Lord
fox questions advice: now discussing falcon xD
Tomacawk
Smash Master
no
I'm saying if tink doesn't reach the good falcon standard then there are only a handful of good falcons, and the rest suck
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
oh ic.
anyways, yesterday i had tourny and i lost to this very experienced oldschool DOC player. currently my most hated matchup. Can I get some general ideas on this matchup? I'm sure it's been posted earlier and I don't expect paragraphs on end, just some general tips that could make a big impact on the matchup.
my current playstyle against a doc are as follows
-laser alot but obv. not too close.
-run in with reallllly late nairs/occasional dairs to shines then either get out or grab or something super safe after cause getting grabbed by doc sux ;C
-then lots of bairs when he's being pushed towards the ledge. i baired him while he tried to recover a few times to get the kill, but doc's recovery still plays me most of the time.
anyways, yesterday i had tourny and i lost to this very experienced oldschool DOC player. currently my most hated matchup. Can I get some general ideas on this matchup? I'm sure it's been posted earlier and I don't expect paragraphs on end, just some general tips that could make a big impact on the matchup.
my current playstyle against a doc are as follows
-laser alot but obv. not too close.
-run in with reallllly late nairs/occasional dairs to shines then either get out or grab or something super safe after cause getting grabbed by doc sux ;C
-then lots of bairs when he's being pushed towards the ledge. i baired him while he tried to recover a few times to get the kill, but doc's recovery still plays me most of the time.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
LOL, that 50cent face just made me feel like such a *******, thanks. Dair combos as in dair, waveshine repeat?
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
This surprises you...?
unknown522
Some guy
lol, wow.
I remember playing him at ROM 1 in teams vs him and prog.
aww ****. I think he'll still go to future tourneys.
yep.
doc sucks. Things to beat doc:
- don't let him camp you
- don't approach him at the edge
- try not to mess up tech skill (unless you're spaced)
- drill -> shine -> something
- b-air. Then b-air some more.
- try to put doc above you
- doc's recovery is bad/limited. He can stall himself in the air, but he'll always end up in the same place in the end. Just take the edge and abuse invincibility.
stabbedbyanipple
Smash Master
oooh I see, thanx toph
Rubyiris
Smash Hero
These guys know wassup.
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
@unknown
instead of laying out doc tips, just show people your set against hmw. you demonstrated very clearly why that matchup is in fox's favour if you abuse the character differences.
not that your tips aren't valuable, i'm just saying that set by itself is a pretty solid demonstration of textbook fox v doc play.
instead of laying out doc tips, just show people your set against hmw. you demonstrated very clearly why that matchup is in fox's favour if you abuse the character differences.
not that your tips aren't valuable, i'm just saying that set by itself is a pretty solid demonstration of textbook fox v doc play.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
it got to a point where he would just pill spam non stop to wait for my approach, should i always be winning a projectile fight against doc? like do i want him to try and approach me more than i should be?
lol @foxlisk, can you really see someone being like "instead of some tips, heres a video of me playing the matchup how it should be played"
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
yea wtf dont take that **** from him, and if there are platforms, run around on those and use le back air
unknown522
Some guy
hahahaahahha, I did play pretty **** gay. I wasn't feeling confident in my tech skill, so I just camped him back. Still, that vid was in bad quality.
I wish my set vs mango's mario was recorded. That was gay, but cooler, or my matches vs Smashmac.
whenever I face good docs, they always try to fake their approach (basically, they'll WD back at some point). Sometimes, they get desperate and try to n-air, but it doesn't come up often. I personally think that you can approach them more than they can approach you, because fox is so gay, but you have to be solid with your tech skill. Also, don't approach them when they are near the edge, unless you are absolutely positive that you can hit them. If they're open at the edge, then you get get some quick cheese kills. If you mess up though, then that can cost you a stock. I highly suggest fighting in the middle, because doc can't really do many good combos as long as you DI well (unless you get CG'd on FD).
Edit @ lovage: I got around to watching your matches vs HugS and Fly. The matches vs Hugs were beastly, but the ones vs fly......you looked pretty nervous. If you want tips vs fly, just say the word.
I wish my set vs mango's mario was recorded. That was gay, but cooler, or my matches vs Smashmac.
Yeah, fox is better at projectile wars than doc is. You can avoid pills pretty easily and get in some lasers in the process. Still, that may not make them approach you anyway. If they don't want to approach, then keep lasering, or go on a platform near them and poke at them. Either way, you get free damage on them.
whenever I face good docs, they always try to fake their approach (basically, they'll WD back at some point). Sometimes, they get desperate and try to n-air, but it doesn't come up often. I personally think that you can approach them more than they can approach you, because fox is so gay, but you have to be solid with your tech skill. Also, don't approach them when they are near the edge, unless you are absolutely positive that you can hit them. If they're open at the edge, then you get get some quick cheese kills. If you mess up though, then that can cost you a stock. I highly suggest fighting in the middle, because doc can't really do many good combos as long as you DI well (unless you get CG'd on FD).
Edit @ lovage: I got around to watching your matches vs HugS and Fly. The matches vs Hugs were beastly, but the ones vs fly......you looked pretty nervous. If you want tips vs fly, just say the word.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
thanks, good stuff. Lastly, the part about FD, is it common that most foxes ban brinstar against doc, to be stuck playing FD? that's what i do, but im not sure if it's a bad idea, or personal preference
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
unknown522 posting:
@ trahh: Yeah, brinstar is way better for fox vs doc. You can still be gay with platforms on that level (I just go falco. It's easier). I always ban FD vs characters that can CG fox (except for fox ditto). I would also ban it vs sheik, but a lot of them are bad there.
@ trahh: Yeah, brinstar is way better for fox vs doc. You can still be gay with platforms on that level (I just go falco. It's easier). I always ban FD vs characters that can CG fox (except for fox ditto). I would also ban it vs sheik, but a lot of them are bad there.
omgwtfToph
Smash Master
I'm of the opinion that FD is great for Fox vs Sheik. Why would you ban FD vs Sheik? Techchasing is no different on that stage, and I think platforms make that matchup more advantageous for Sheik in almost every way.
Fortress | Sveet
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I ban FD vs a lot of characters too. I love my platforms too much.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
Because you can't approach in as many creative, unique ways. And that sucks when Sheik's entire game vs Fox is based on stuffing approaches and boxing him in. The latter is also enhanced on FD because there are no platforms to help him not be boxed in and give him alternative escape routes.
Fox also benefits from platforms in his combos. Sheik doesn't, not really. Her combos have the same damage potential vs Fox on every level (except FoD, which is usually bad if Fox is smart but most are stupid).
FoxLisk
Smash Lord
- Joined
- Jun 18, 2007
- Messages
- 1,851
no, but, honestly that video helped me more than just readnig the tips would have. it would sound super cocky but it's just him showing to execute all the tips he gave.
edit: idk why ir esponded to this seriously... it was pretty obviously just poking fun... im in a weird mood.
also **** fd. i hate fd.
KirbyKaze
Smash Legend
That's a good question.
Fortress | Sveet
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Whats the argument for it not being a neutral? Thats the way the process works.
trahhSTEEZY
Smash Champion
all heavies get chain grabbed alot, lasers are more abusive, utilts are far more abusive imo aswell
Kanelol
Smash Lord
Can you imagine an even neutral-y-er stage?
I thought not
I thought not
I'm sorry Sveety, but stages are not protected by the constitution. Stages are not neutral until proven guilty. FD is just conveniently large and flat. At first glance it appears neutral but really it just creates stale game play.
I would really love for you to provide an argument in favor of FD being neutral.
@ Kane, I'm reading that as sarcasm but in case it is not, I must say: Flatness =/= neutrality.
Fortress | Sveet
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Except FD has been widely accepted as a neutral stage since day one. If you have a problem with it, why don't you actually put forth an argument for why it shouldn't be.
Again, playing devil's advocate. I have a few arguments for why it shouldn't be neutral, but this is ur chance to shine, not mine
Again, playing devil's advocate. I have a few arguments for why it shouldn't be neutral, but this is ur chance to shine, not mine
JPOBS
Smash Hero
The only time i played a good doc in tourny was pound 4, i banned brinstar knowing he would pick FD, and switched to falco and laser camped like a little b***h. i won.
i only ban FD vs marth. other chars that can CG fox, i feel have more painful counterpicks im more worried about.
I personally think FD is the worst neutral though. (i like FoD a lot)
i only ban FD vs marth. other chars that can CG fox, i feel have more painful counterpicks im more worried about.
I personally think FD is the worst neutral though. (i like FoD a lot)
Fortress | Sveet
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I love brinstar vs doc. Actually, I love brinstar because most people who CP it think its like auto-win vs fox or something... Its not. As long as the fox player doesnt accidentally fall off the stage, he really isnt at a disadvantage. I think fox is the best character other than peach and puff at avoiding the stage gayness.
I posed a question, I am not here to argue. I am trying to determine the standard against which FD's neutrality is measured. Unfortunately and for as far as I can remember, FD has always been considered the most neutral of all. Though I am highly skeptic of this position and feel it is either esoteric or wholly unfounded.
For that matter, why should any stage be banned at this point in time???
For that matter, why should any stage be banned at this point in time???
Fortress | Sveet
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Brookman, this thread has a lot of good information on banned stages, IMO.
I agree the cars on onett are the worst part. The walk off edges and the walls aren't really an issue. My opinion is that both players have equal reaction to the warning and i've never seen a way to pin someone down so that they must get hit by the car or get hit by the opponent. If you can't avoid it, you can shield it.
I used to shine grab and throw for invincibility when the cars were driving by. I was pretty good at this.
I also agree about the time limit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA&feature=related
randomly sharing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tGieanN5JQ&feature=related
#
kayfalco82
7 hours ago
I would be impressed by your abilities if I was not already busy wondering why you aren't in the GOD **** KITCHEN
I used to shine grab and throw for invincibility when the cars were driving by. I was pretty good at this.
I also agree about the time limit.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yI_hGcWjTKA&feature=related
randomly sharing:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tGieanN5JQ&feature=related
#
kayfalco82
7 hours ago
I would be impressed by your abilities if I was not already busy wondering why you aren't in the GOD **** KITCHEN
JPOBS
Smash Hero
i dont think FD should be non-neutral for the simple fact that it doesnt change the basic strategy of any given match by much.
To elaborate, dont think of neutral as "the stages that are most fair"
Instead, think of neutral to mean "the stages that are all similar enough that play according to what we have come to define as the right way to play"
Now, under that definition, we could completely swap the counterpick list and the neutral list and i would have no problem with that, the point is, after 10 years, we have developed a style of play that we like to promote, and the "neutral" stages, are those which most closely stear gameplay in that direction.
Counterpick stages on the other hand, add factors which are outside of what we've come to decide as being the "best" way to play. either by actually adding stage hindrances such
as lava or random stage changes, OR promote/inhibit some important aspect of gameplay too drastically (i.e. KG64 generally promotes camping MORE than we like)
FD, while adding the aspect of chaingrabbing to many matchups, does not alter the optimal gameplay we aim for enough, and thats why its considered to be neutral. Moreover, some consider it to be the most neutral, because it arguably promotes the greatest aspect of gameplay we desire. i.e. head to head physcial combat.
Now, it can be argued that our arbitrary, self created standards for what style of gameplay is most "optimal", is in fact ill-founded, but that is another argument completely. The point is, after 10 years, for better or worse, we've molded a game based on how the majority of people like to play it, and the "neutrals" or "counterpicks" either strive to be very close to that, or alter it significantly enough to be considered different.
my 10 cents.
To elaborate, dont think of neutral as "the stages that are most fair"
Instead, think of neutral to mean "the stages that are all similar enough that play according to what we have come to define as the right way to play"
Now, under that definition, we could completely swap the counterpick list and the neutral list and i would have no problem with that, the point is, after 10 years, we have developed a style of play that we like to promote, and the "neutral" stages, are those which most closely stear gameplay in that direction.
Counterpick stages on the other hand, add factors which are outside of what we've come to decide as being the "best" way to play. either by actually adding stage hindrances such
as lava or random stage changes, OR promote/inhibit some important aspect of gameplay too drastically (i.e. KG64 generally promotes camping MORE than we like)
FD, while adding the aspect of chaingrabbing to many matchups, does not alter the optimal gameplay we aim for enough, and thats why its considered to be neutral. Moreover, some consider it to be the most neutral, because it arguably promotes the greatest aspect of gameplay we desire. i.e. head to head physcial combat.
Now, it can be argued that our arbitrary, self created standards for what style of gameplay is most "optimal", is in fact ill-founded, but that is another argument completely. The point is, after 10 years, for better or worse, we've molded a game based on how the majority of people like to play it, and the "neutrals" or "counterpicks" either strive to be very close to that, or alter it significantly enough to be considered different.
my 10 cents.