Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[unknown522]

yeah, It just takes time to get used to their shortcommings if you don't know already....It's the same way that I beat high tiers with pichu...it's just lack of knowledge.

 

[SuperRad]

What comes out faster, SH Bair or Up Tilt?
On falcons, I'll jump past them, nair their shield -> utilt, but I remember reading somewhere that nair->bair is better in that situation?

 

[ChivalRuse]

Utilt comes out on frame 5 and hits for 7 frames. Bair comes out in 4 frames (but given the time needed to jump, it would realistically take about 10 frames) and lasts for 16 frames.

So utilt is faster but bair's hitbox has a longer duration.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

why would it take 10 frames? jump animation is 3 frames. 4 + 3 = 7

 

[Da Shuffla]

Assuming the person isn't frame perfect with getting out the Bair, it would take about 10 frames for the average Fox.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

it would take 10 frames for a sub-par fox. a good fox would only be slow 1 frame.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay, 8 frames is fair.

 

[JPOBS]

im confused as to how you could go around assinging titles like "good fox" and "subpar" fox based on whether or not they get out a bair on 1 frame or 3 :/

what confuses me even more sveet is that you somehow know that "good foxes" are in fact only 1 frame slower than optimal.... :/

teach me your ways.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

My roommate is a great Fox.

I'm a sub-par Fox.

Discuss.

Smooth Criminal

 

[ChivalRuse]

Okay, 8 frames is fair.

And by "fair", I mean "acceptable", not "forward-aerial".

My roommate is a great Fox.

I'm a sub-par Fox.

Discuss.

Smooth Criminal

Get a new roommate?

Or break his controller?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Get a new roommate?

Or break his controller?

Mah dude...

I'm the only one that has a working controller. So "MISHUN COMPRETE."

...

Actually, no. Not really. Considering that the fact still remains.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

im confused as to how you could go around assinging titles like "good fox" and "subpar" fox based on whether or not they get out a bair on 1 frame or 3 :/

what confuses me even more sveet is that you somehow know that "good foxes" are in fact only 1 frame slower than optimal.... :/

teach me your ways.

because part of being a good fox is being having proper tech skill, and tell me which part of this should a good fox be making a mistake in timing

1. acting from lcancel lag
2. aerialing as soon as you jump

 

[JPOBS]

that wasnt the point but ok.

 

[Rubyiris]

my techskill sucks.

im the worst fox player ever.

 

[voorhese]

playing with fox on fast melee is a lot easier than i thought it would be, double shines and shine upsmashes feel like the same timing to me

 

[Tomacawk]

im confused as to how you could go around assinging titles like "good fox" and "subpar" fox based on whether or not they get out a bair on 1 frame or 3 :/

what confuses me even more sveet is that you somehow know that "good foxes" are in fact only 1 frame slower than optimal.... :/
.

because a good fox not only makes good decisions, but does not make technical errors/slow inputs in addition to recovering well, DIing well, etc.
It's the same concept behind a "good" falcon being able to reverse shffl uair into backdash fullhop knee

because part of being a good fox is being having proper tech skill, and tell me which part of this should a good fox be making a mistake in timing

1. acting from lcancel lag
2. aerialing as soon as you jump

basically this

playing with fox on fast melee is a lot easier than i thought it would be, double shines and shine upsmashes feel like the same timing to me

voorhese you have the dumbest ****ing posts in the world

 

[ChivalRuse]

my techskill sucks.

im the worst fox player ever.

Remind me what techs you have trouble with again. Maybe we can figure out a solution.

 

[Rubyiris]

Remind me what techs you have trouble with again. Maybe we can figure out a solution.

I'm mostly just inconsistent. Some days I'm lovage/SW status. Some days it's a chore just to sh, and waveshine > grab/usmash someone.

on average I can do most things consistently, with a few exceptions.

On average:

My shine > wd > grab/usmash is probably 60~70% consistent
JC grab is like 50% Replicate suggested switching to Y rather than up, but that made it like 10% lol.
ledgedash is like 10% consistency. I used to be able to do frame-perfect ledge dashes like 100% last summer but the last month or so I just haven't been able to do them anymore.

It's probably just bad timing on my part, but my analog stick does have the issue of not centering properly. It's really lose, and is almost always angled down and to the right slightly. it's not uncommon for a nair to turn into a dair, or a fair to turn into a dair.

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

Can someone throw out some general tips against falco? Like, best way to approach him? Is it jumping over lasers with nairs? Oh and also what's the proper way to DI the pillar? like how to DI the dair and then the shine. Any other tips are appreciated.

 

[Rubyiris]

Can someone throw out some general tips against falco? Like, best way to approach him? Is it jumping over lasers with nairs? Oh and also what's the proper way to DI the pillar? like how to DI the dair and then the shine. Any other tips are appreciated.

jumping over lasers with a nair isn't the best idea. alot of the time they're trying to GET you to do this so they can cc > **** your face, or dd > grab > **** your face.

Also SDI the drill/shine away. It makes it alot harder for them to follow up. If you SDI the drill, shine will miss if you do it properly.

Best approach is running shield/running power shield.

 

[JPOBS]

if falco is running towards you or has momentum going through your body, try SDI'ing the dair so that as he passes over you you end up on behind him and the shine misses and you can get away.

and if he's is doing falling or stationary dairs try SDI'ing the dair away from his body so the shine will hopefully miss.

its not a perfect science but sometimes you can get lucky.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If he starts CC->shining, use dair->grab. actually, just use dair->grab a lot cause grabs are amazing for fox in this MU.

 

[Lovage]

Can someone throw out some general tips against falco? Like, best way to approach him? Is it jumping over lasers with nairs? Oh and also what's the proper way to DI the pillar? like how to DI the dair and then the shine. Any other tips are appreciated.

jumping over SHL with nairs is pretty good if they're not at super low percent (0-25) and you're confident you can get the shine off before they cc shine

if you used drill instead of nair ccing wouldn't be a problem (unless you mess up really bad) but full hop drill is a pretty wonky approach so i would use it sparingly because you are barely protected when you do it.


--

that said, don't make your full hop approaches predictable because they're so easy to see coming it's very easy for them to dash dance and punish (especially if you're playing marth or falcon, be very careful with full hop approaches against them)

as for combo DI...eh, there's not much you can do against a very good falco. you can make their life HARDER, but you can't really break their combos unless you use clever DI to hit an edge and double jump. so pretty much DI the shine fully away, try to SDI the dair away also. if you SDI hard enough it's possible that they will whiff their shine, but don't count on it.

--

general matchup advice:

use shine or usmash/nair to get him on the ground and do your best to follow his roll. if you have decent reactions and enough experience, you should be able to grab falco out of his groundrolls once you've knocked him down. when you get grabs, try to punish as hard as you can. learn how to uthrow->usmash at every percent and every DI so nothing can surprise you.

once your punishments become robotic you can focus more on spacing around his lasers and getting nairs in and stuff like that.

--

oh yeah and full hop bair is pretty good against falco at high %. sure you might get hit with a couple of lasers but you can usually catch them in the air eventually if you space right.

 

[dch111]

Kind of a noob question, but I wanted to be sure:

Whenever I get hit and go flying (pretty far) off the stage, I find myself with three options, none of which can be (practically) done at the same time:
1. Hold DI throughout, mash jump to get jump as soon as possible (since I've heard that jumping in the opposite direction of the flight cancels the original momentum)
2. Wiggle and mash jump so that right after hitstun ends, the tumble is immediately canceled (what the wiggling is for, since I've heard you can't jump during the tumble animation) and the jump is executed at the earliest possible moment
3. DI part way, then mash downB so your momentum is canceled at the first possible moment, then jumping out of it. I'm not sure whether downB can be done out of the tumble animation; otherwise this would make #2 obsolete

Experimentation has not done me much good, since it's always most critical when Fox is knocked outside of the screen, where it's hard to make out what's happening when. I was wondering if you guys knew the mechanics in such a way that one of these methods (or another I haven't considered) is clearly the best? There was a time when I thought wiggling reduced hitstun (lol) and thus made the choice even more nuanced and difficult to work out, but nowadays I think it's 1 or 3 depending on what can be done directly out of a tumble.

 

[Lovage]

Kind of a noob question, but I wanted to be sure:

Whenever I get hit and go flying (pretty far) off the stage, I find myself with three options, none of which can be (practically) done at the same time:
1. Hold DI throughout, mash jump to get jump as soon as possible (since I've heard that jumping in the opposite direction of the flight cancels the original momentum)
2. Wiggle and mash jump so that right after hitstun ends, the tumble is immediately canceled (what the wiggling is for, since I've heard you can't jump during the tumble animation) and the jump is executed at the earliest possible moment
3. DI part way, then mash downB so your momentum is canceled at the first possible moment, then jumping out of it. I'm not sure whether downB can be done out of the tumble animation; otherwise this would make #2 obsolete

Experimentation has not done me much good, since it's always most critical when Fox is knocked outside of the screen, where it's hard to make out what's happening when. I was wondering if you guys knew the mechanics in such a way that one of these methods (or another I haven't considered) is clearly the best? There was a time when I thought wiggling reduced hitstun (lol) and thus made the choice even more nuanced and difficult to work out, but nowadays I think it's 1 or 3 depending on what can be done directly out of a tumble.

lots of bad misconceptions in this post. other ppl will answer these questions or ill post tomorrow GOODNIGHT

 

[dch111]

Yeah I suspected so, the post was meant to clear up those misconceptions. Btw, just for clarity, in that post I was talking about when you suddenly get knocked away at high speed and don't have time to think, just react. what should one default to.

 

[ChivalRuse]

I'm mostly just inconsistent. Some days I'm lovage/SW status. Some days it's a chore just to sh, and waveshine > grab/usmash someone.

on average I can do most things consistently, with a few exceptions.

On average:

My shine > wd > grab/usmash is probably 60~70% consistent
JC grab is like 50% Replicate suggested switching to Y rather than up, but that made it like 10% lol.
ledgedash is like 10% consistency. I used to be able to do frame-perfect ledge dashes like 100% last summer but the last month or so I just haven't been able to do them anymore.

It's probably just bad timing on my part, but my analog stick does have the issue of not centering properly. It's really lose, and is almost always angled down and to the right slightly. it's not uncommon for a nair to turn into a dair, or a fair to turn into a dair.

You use up for JC grabs? I use X + Z ^_^ (and up for JC usmashes)

Do you wavedash with up or X/Y, because up seems painful to do. I use X + R

 

[JPOBS]

Yeah I suspected so, the post was meant to clear up those misconceptions. Btw, just for clarity, in that post I was talking about when you suddenly get knocked away at high speed and don't have time to think, just react. what should one default to.

Shining does abosultely nothing, point blank 0 to help your recovery. In fact it if you shine near the blast zones you actually die where you would have otherwise not died. i dont know the specifics on it but its true.

wigging breaks the tumble animation but technically everytime you wiggle away you're di'ing towards the blast zone and if your hit far offstage i dont think you want to be di'ing to your death.

jumping is the best response to breaking your momentum going far offstage.

 

[Dynamism?]

Chival : Up is perfectly fine for JC grabs. It's really just a preferance. Just like you use R when most people use L. :\

 

[jugfingers]

Chival : Up is perfectly fine for JC grabs. It's really just a preferance. Just like you use R when most people use L. :\

if you use the control stick your not going to be able to JC a grab until part way through your dash, as oppose to using x or y which enable you to dash and jump at the same time since your using two different buttons.

unless you can move the control stick in two different directions in two frames its always going to be slower than using x or y

 

[trahhSTEEZY]

I'm mostly just inconsistent. Some days I'm lovage/SW status. Some days it's a chore just to sh, and waveshine > grab/usmash someone.

on average I can do most things consistently, with a few exceptions.

On average:

My shine > wd > grab/usmash is probably 60~70% consistent
JC grab is like 50% Replicate suggested switching to Y rather than up, but that made it like 10% lol.
ledgedash is like 10% consistency. I used to be able to do frame-perfect ledge dashes like 100% last summer but the last month or so I just haven't been able to do them anymore.

It's probably just bad timing on my part, but my analog stick does have the issue of not centering properly. It's really lose, and is almost always angled down and to the right slightly. it's not uncommon for a nair to turn into a dair, or a fair to turn into a dair.

My JC grab consistenty is like 90%+ using X to Z. I would never use up-to-Z and anyone that's told me they do it like that, i tell them to use x or y, and the next day they're JC'ing grabs.

They're really simple, one of the easier things imo. Also thanks for the fox stuff Lovage, JPOBS, Sveet for the help. Gonna apply this stuff at the next local and get back to you guys :3

 

[unknown522]

yo lovage, how can I approach falcos that laser under platforms all the time? Or how do I get them to stop?

It's the only matchup I'm bad at. (well sort of)

 

[keychain323]

can you drillshine upsmash marth when he doesnt di towards you?

 

[Lovage]

yo lovage, how can I approach falcos that laser under platforms all the time? Or how do I get them to stop?

It's the only matchup I'm bad at. (well sort of)

yea that's pretty hard to get around. something you can try is dashing around on the top platform, then jumping to the side platform and try to bair them. i mean they can't stay there the whole game so you have to make the most of it when they're out in the open.

another thing you can try is a very well spaced run up shield, they'll probably jump or dash back and you can try to bair them out of their jump or wavedash forward a bit and nair them out of their dash. dashing up to them and rolling behind them might work a few times if you space it correctly (so they can't shine in place when you finish rolling)

idk tho falco isn't one of my best matchups and all the falcos i play are super aggro and don't really camp like that much

can you drillshine upsmash marth when he doesnt di towards you?

yea probably if you're fast enough, grab is probably safer/easier tho

 

[Dynamism?]

if you use the control stick your not going to be able to JC a grab until part way through your dash, as oppose to using x or y which enable you to dash and jump at the same time since your using two different buttons.

unless you can move the control stick in two different directions in two frames its always going to be slower than using x or y

:O

It's 2 frames between when you start the dash to when you can grab? So initial dash = 2 frames?

 

[Turazrok]

I have trouble shine bairing.

Halp.

 

[jugfingers]

:O

It's 2 frames between when you start the dash to when you can grab? So initial dash = 2 frames?

no, I mean if you could input a dash on the control stick and then input a jump on the control stick the very next frame(which is nearly impossible) it wouldn't be as ridiculous to use the control stick for jc grabs cause a two frame linear sequence of button inputs would seem like you were doing it simultaneously and wouldn't make much difference in terms of practical gameplay

however even if you could do that, its still at very best a frame slower than using X or Y since you can input a jump on the 1st frame of your dash attack since your pressing two different buttons you can press them at the same time, which is impossible if your using the control stick for both dashing and jumping.

try jc grabbing using up on the control stick they'll be a big cloud of dust behind him, then use x or y and press jump at the same time as you dash and there won't be a cloud of dust.

this is because when you use the control stick your midway through his start up dash before you jump whereas with x or y your jumping immediately, before the animation.


bottom line is using the control stick is slower for jc grabs.

 

[Rubyiris]

You use up for JC grabs? I use X + Z ^_^ (and up for JC usmashes)

Do you wavedash with up or X/Y, because up seems painful to do. I use X + R

I do everything with Y+L with a few exceptions.

FJ uair I usually use up+A. most OOS options I use up.

Random question:

Has anyone noticed if their playstyle, etc changes based on what color they're using? I noticed that if I use any color except for blue(purple) my technical skill stops being completely terrible.

 

[ChivalRuse]

Color johns are pretty legit.

 

[Tomacawk]

I have trouble shine bairing.

Halp.

If you can do it with falco then you are fast enough to do it with fox. It's all about positioning. You want to have the shine hit them at the very top point of it, just above fox's head.
you have a gun with infinite bullets.

Has anyone noticed if their playstyle, etc changes based on what color they're using? I noticed that if I use any color except for blue(purple) my technical skill stops being completely terrible.

no