Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Silent Wolf]

Chival: If you're going in training for starman nair shine practice, why would the cstick be necessary? downb+jump+a

it is pretty annoying though






I'm so behind on video ****, but I promise I'll get up to speed tomorrow. I still have to look over that doubles set.


edit:

The Thunders Combo: Aerial->shine->jab reset->uair. The Japanese Fox player "Thunders" used that exact combo almost exclusively after the reset. It was at a time when his opponents probably didn't know how to d.i. to escape any of it. Anything that isn't an uair after the jab is not technically a "Thunders". He only ever did the uair.

BUT

I hate to break it to you folks; holding up on the control stick ***** all sorts of resets. You d.i. the jab, and end up on your feet. You can freely shine or buffer a defensive option (roll, sidestep, jump) from this position.

ex.

Sheik dthrow ***** Falcon, Falcon gets smart and decides to mix it up by not teching. Sheik jabs to counter-**** but Falcon holds up to d.i. and grabs (or single-hit nairs depending on percent and how high the jab makes you float).

I guess the secret is out now. Just hold up and it doesn't work.

if theyre under the low 30's in % (not sure exactly when, but i know its a bit over 30 for sure) they cant buffer a roll no matter what if theyre entirely on the ground while being hit by the reset attack, nor can they Di it up or even smash DI it up for that matter. if they smash Di they move up a bit but still are forced to stand in place.

 

[TresChikon]

What %'s does Jigg's jab become escapable for Fox? It feels ridiculously high to me.

 

[DtJ Jungle]

thats because it is ridiculously high.

 

[Tomacawk]

raynex take your time on the videos, take care of your life n **** before you worry about the boards
and that set idc much about i'm still waiting for my set against goose to be uploaded because i really want you to help me learn what i could have done differently with approaches

 

[iamthemicrowave]

The most technical fox is aarosmashguy. he waveshines and nair shines faster than anyone.

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I hate to break it to you folks; holding up on the control stick ***** all sorts of resets. You d.i. the jab, and end up on your feet. You can freely shine or buffer a defensive option (roll, sidestep, jump) from this position.

ex.

Sheik dthrow ***** Falcon, Falcon gets smart and decides to mix it up by not teching. Sheik jabs to counter-**** but Falcon holds up to d.i. and grabs (or single-hit nairs depending on percent and how high the jab makes you float).

I guess the secret is out now. Just hold up and it doesn't work.

is this an example of forbidden DI?

if theyre under the low 30's in % (not sure exactly when, but i know its a bit over 30 for sure) they cant buffer a roll no matter what if theyre entirely on the ground while being hit by the reset attack, nor can they Di it up or even smash DI it up for that matter. if they smash Di they move up a bit but still are forced to stand in place.

you sure? i'm pretty sure magus posted in the CF thread a little while back that if you sdi at any percent you get out

 

[DtJ Jungle]

it works differently for different jabs i thought.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Silence, Fever. You're wrong. Despite being right. Which is why you're wrong.

 

[PB&J]

The most technical fox is aarosmashguy. he waveshines and nair shines faster than anyone.

he is really technical..i forgot about him

 

[Silent Wolf]

you sure? i'm pretty sure magus posted in the CF thread a little while back that if you sdi at any percent you get out

maybe they werent entirely on the ground when he tested it, or they werent under 3X percent. if he tested it with cf its likely they werent all the way on the ground, seeing as how his jab is really high

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

If you get grabbed above about 25% or so just holding up will work. If grabbed between around 20-25%, holding up & towards on the control stick and up on the c-stick will work. If below 20% you need to SDI and could either:

A) Hold up on the c-stick and rotate the control stick rapidly. Easy, but if the jab hits during the wrong parts of the rotation it won't work.

B) Hold up on the c-stick and full away on the control stick, then right as you hit the ground quickly rotate the control stick in the upward direction starting from away and ending at up & towards, then maybe go into C) in case they delay the jab slightly. If they hit you just after passing the point at the top it won't work if you don't move past up a 2nd time when going the other way before hitlag ends.

C) Hold up on the c-stick and rapidly wiggle/shake the control stick back and forth over the 2 points near the up notch on the controller. If you do it fast enough it will work pretty much every time. If you aren't fast it might not work very well at all. I put the stick between my index and middle fingers and vibrate my hand.

Thats the post i found. I believe he is talking about sheik's jab reset on CF, though the information applies to all jabs (w/ slight changes in numbers due to jab strength and character weight)


edit: and this post from scar

Magus the point is that you don't have to SDI up you just have to SDI, I used your trixies as much as I could and it was helpful but Mango's rotate the stick trick works like 90% of the time at 0%, so now the actionable advice to be given is get dthrown, miss the tech, and rotate the stick.


yeah it puts you up in that weird float animation so you have time to do whatever, which is why everyone double jumps out, because they you have the option of fastfalling again

i think that's stupid though because it prob takes more time to hit the ground anyways and you don't have your dj

i don't think sheik can do any of that without failing to cover tech roll options. this is against sheik trying to cover all of your options from grab

yes

false and false

you don't have to SDI up you just have to smash DI, just like vs fox's uthrow uair

you rotate the stick as though you're trying to break free from a grab, and the inputs are all smashes, if you smash while in hitstun (which you will) you are smash DIing the hit, so you get propelled in that direction

it'll free you from the ground no matter what direction you press, unless it's down in which case idk what happens

also you can do it at any %

 

[DtJ Jungle]

Silence, Fever. You're wrong. Despite being right. Which is why you're wrong.

im confused.

 

[RaynEX]

raynex take your time on the videos, take care of your life n **** before you worry about the boards
and that set idc much about i'm still waiting for my set against goose to be uploaded because i really want you to help me learn what i could have done differently with approaches

Thanks man. I'll take a look at the vids when they come. But yeah, approaching is **** hard. Went to a tourny last weekend and I felt the pressure vs. KirbyKaze's solid defense and chase game so approaching always felt like a bad idea. I managed to pull it out in the end though.



wfs: rayn v KK 1,2,3 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aTAH8bpjtEg
rayn v KK 4 - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=obIymjAOw2o

Grand Finals are being uploaded. Me v KK again 5th match last stock blaarg



Sveet: That was a good post find. Magus is so informative.

 

[Silent Wolf]

i only tested my theory for fox

 

[Tomacawk]

thanks again sveet for confirming.
not trying to say i told you so, but once an issue is answered i don't forget...which is why i knew thunders and the sdi thing...yall gotta believe me even if my join date is 07 and i'm unknown =]
and i said this earlier but i want more input (raynex?)
how do you guys feel about pivot dair with fox
like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3fgG2zgWDg#t=0m16s

 

[PK Webb]

ummm not to take away from tomacawks question but i 2 have a question: how do u wavedash onto the stage with fox consistently....im having alot of problems with it

 

[voorhese]

hey my falco is a lot better than may fox is (idk about was), but when i play fox again after words hes a little slower (and i try to play him like falco) if i keep switching in between them when i practice every other game, will this go away do u think? ( i know everyones diff, but from your experiences)

 

[Silent Wolf]

ummm not to take away from tomacawks question but i 2 have a question: how do u wavedash onto the stage with fox consistently....im having alot of problems with it

get used to timing it so you can drop off and just do the ledgedash with the exact same timing as a regular wavedash, you just have to find the timing.

 

[TresChikon]

which is why i knew the sdi thing

Are you talking about this statement?

DI'ing up only works at certain percents. Any sdi input at all (seriously, any direction) will work at all percents though. just wiggle your stick

 

[Tomacawk]

affirmative

 

[LumpyCPU...]

hey my falco is a lot better than may fox is (idk about was), but when i play fox again after words hes a little slower (and i try to play him like falco) if i keep switching in between them when i practice every other game, will this go away do u think? ( i know everyones diff, but from your experiences)

my solution was to practically drop falco. ha

 

[TresChikon]

Well I'd hate to point out the error, but...

I can see where you got that understanding.

Magus the point is that you don't have to SDI up you just have to SDI, I used your trixies as much as I could and it was helpful but Mango's rotate the stick trick works like 90% of the time at 0%,

you don't have to SDI up you just have to smash DI, just like vs fox's uthrow uair

you rotate the stick as though you're trying to break free from a grab, and the inputs are all smashes, if you smash while in hitstun (which you will) you are smash DIing the hit, so you get propelled in that direction

it'll free you from the ground no matter what direction you press, unless it's down in which case idk what happens

also you can do it at any %

However, Magus pointed out that it's wrong.

False, even with DI and ASDI straight up your SDI needs to be ~30° above horizontal if you were grabbed at 0%. Even a SDI straight up isn't enough if you AS/DI improperly. There are many parts of the rotation where if caught in won't get you the A/S/DI you need to get out at very low damage. Simply suggesting to 'miss the tech, and rotate the stick' is subpar advice. You'd be better off timing the rotation upward right after you hit the ground, and even then a couple frames delay on the jab can mess this up. Also, if you're going to rotate the stick to do it you should at least be holding up on the c-stick to get the ASDI part correct, which is pretty important.

Sveet only pulled half the discussion in, so it was left out.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

ok. somebody find the most efficient way and tell me. i keep mentally writing all this down and my eraser is wearing thin.

 

[TresChikon]

See those points?

Those are the points where SDI is triggered through rotation after passing them (arrows indicating the direction of rotation). I've found a pretty reliable way to do it is by wiggling between those 2 top-most points very quickly.

Use methods A-C on those points.

If you get grabbed above about 25% or so just holding up will work. If grabbed between around 20-25%, holding up & towards on the control stick and up on the c-stick will work. If below 20% you need to SDI and could either:

A) Hold up on the c-stick and rotate the control stick rapidly. Easy, but if the jab hits during the wrong parts of the rotation it won't work.

B) Hold up on the c-stick and full away on the control stick, then right as you hit the ground quickly rotate the control stick in the upward direction starting from away and ending at up & towards, then maybe go into C) in case they delay the jab slightly. If they hit you just after passing the point at the top it won't work if you don't move past up a 2nd time when going the other way before hitlag ends.

C) Hold up on the c-stick and rapidly wiggle/shake the control stick back and forth over the 2 points near the up notch on the controller. If you do it fast enough it will work pretty much every time. If you aren't fast it might not work very well at all. I put the stick between my index and middle fingers and vibrate my hand.

I find method C to be most effective.

 

[AnDaLe]

thanks again sveet for confirming.
not trying to say i told you so, but once an issue is answered i don't forget...which is why i knew thunders and the sdi thing...yall gotta believe me even if my join date is 07 and i'm unknown =]
and i said this earlier but i want more input (raynex?)
how do you guys feel about pivot dair with fox
like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3fgG2zgWDg#t=0m16s

tomacawk is my source for solving tech skilled related problems

 

[LumpyCPU...]

method C it is. now i just have to remember that in the heat of battle.

 

[Tomacawk]

tomacawk is my source for solving tech skilled related problems

lol...maybe sigged?

Thank you for clarifying that tripplechicken. I'd like to think that I also missed the other part of the discussion but no johns

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

how often do you really have your missed tech punished with a jab reset where you are expecting? usually for me i either tech or don't tech and get hit by an aerial/they wait out my getup

 

[TresChikon]

Usually after I SDI the reset once or twice, they'll just forgo the jab and usmash immediately while I'm still trying to SDI it.

 

[PK Webb]

get used to timing it so you can drop off and just do the ledgedash with the exact same timing as a regular wavedash, you just have to find the timing.

I can do it consistently if i shine while on the ledge 1st then wavedash onto the stage.. Is there a difference between shine-->wavedash onto the stage then wavedash onto the stage in terms of safety

 

[TresChikon]

4 frames of difference(not counting the time it takes you to shine after grabbing the ledge), but those frames could mean you getting hit out of a crucial grab or usmash. I'd say learn it w/o the shine.

It really is his best option from the ledge, it's the most broken ledgedash in the game since Fox can get onstage so quickly and maximize every frame.

 

[PK Webb]

Will do thanks for clearin that up for me...the fox boards r so helpful......best character board there is

 

[ChivalRuse]

how do you guys feel about pivot dair with fox
like this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q3fgG2zgWDg#t=0m16s

Nice. But you proceeded to kill yourself right after.

 

[Tomacawk]

lolol ><
the point is the pivot dair not my awful control of my character haha
seriously though, do you guys think its better than other options in a situation where they're that close to you and you're DDing?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

lolol ><
the point is the pivot dair not my awful control of my character haha
seriously though, do you guys think its better than other options in a situation where they're that close to you and you're DDing?

i didn't watch the video, but it sounds like a good opportunity to grab.

i guess you could dair grab or dair shine to whatever...

man idk... fox is so ****ing good. haha
you can literally do whatever you want as long as you're safe about it.

 

[Tomacawk]

i didn't watch the video, but it sounds like a good opportunity to grab.

i guess you could dair grab or dair shine to whatever...

man idk... fox is so ****ing good. haha
you can literally do whatever you want as long as you're safe about it.

please watch it. I have a time code in the URL, it will take 5 seconds of your time and you will be able to add to the discussion.
I already stated reasons why I think pivot dair is good. If you try to grab instead but if whiffs, a whiffed dair is quicker, but it shouldn't whiff anyway. It leads into grab(so it's the same but better), or shine, or mindgames.also when I try to pivot grab at the spacing so close where pivot dair works, I always **** it up. I know others may not have this problem, but it is for me the best option. Refer to earlier posts for more info on it if you want to. I'd like to hear everybody's opinion, but raynex specifically is who I'm waiting on to answer it because he will know what is best

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

I thought everyone was already into pivot aerials....


btw its 13:37


edit:: ****

 

[Tomacawk]

I've never seen pivot aerials used for fox
only with ganon/falcon have i seen them used extensively
that doesn't mean people arent doing it tho lol

 

[ChivalRuse]

I pivot fair and nair with marth.

 

[Turazrok]

How does one pivot these aerials? I know how to reverse blaster, is it like that?