Q&A -Fox Advice/Questions Topic-

[Binx]

Umm this is the melee thread... so Fox can shine out of dthrow dair chaingrab from ICs right?

Also thanks Scotu for the Falco info.

 

[SCOTU]

afaik, fox cannot shine out of the ic's dthrow dair cg. I've at least never seen/heard of that possibility

 

[Binx]

He smash DI's away first then shines the regrab. Is that possible or am I not doing it fast enough? pretty sure you can smash DI it away, I've seen PC's fox get out of Chu's chain throws before, I think thats why Chu upsmashes and tech chases out of his grabs a lot of the time.

I know Fox's aren't really IC experts or anything though so I'll quit asking those kinds of questions after this haha.

 

[SCOTU]

oh. That'd work. seems hard though. I usually just hold Away C+R and try for an SDI, buffer into roll. but since that works, the shine should work too, but you can't buffer it and you probably have a rather small window, but possible.

 

[Binx]

If you know it's coming its probably not that difficult, obviously I'm throwing too predictably, maybe if I jab twice before throwing, or not jab at all as a surprise I would get more regrabs. I guess it doesn't matter though cause Fox is WAY better than ICs and I'm way better with him.

 

[RaynEX]

To lightshield with Z you have to buffer it. Hold Z after a roll, spotdodge, grab, jab (or any other move), wavedash, etc. You can even do it out of a run, by crouching and pressing Z on the same frame.

Shine oos is more useful if you stay on the ground because you can wavedash or sh afterward. For falco it doesn't really matter because he'll gladly double-jump out of the shine, but fox has many more options out of a wavedash.

GG. I was going to type this but you beat me to it. Buffering light shield with Z is cool.

Can fox be chaingrabbed by ICs? I used to be able to do it pretty easily but now I'm getting shined out of it, I don't know if it's because I play more Fox than ICs and I'm just making a dumb mistake or if my friend is doing just better now.

Oh and whats the best option vs Falco when he is trying to dair shine your shield, can you jump shine before his shine goes off?

You can easily d.i. the dair and buffer roll. I'm not sure about shine but I'm definite you can escape if you just hold away and buffer side-step/roll.

If you know it's coming its probably not that difficult, obviously I'm throwing too predictably, maybe if I jab twice before throwing, or not jab at all as a surprise I would get more regrabs. I guess it doesn't matter though cause Fox is WAY better than ICs and I'm way better with him.

There are better ways of CGing Fox, and none of them involve dair. It only truly works if they survival d.i., or neutral d.i. Which is why an IC player will usually do something that involves blizzard, then do d-air->re-grab once or twice when they get near an edge for a bit more damage. As you know, alot of players tend to spam 'towards d.i.' once they are forced towards an edge, especially vs. ICs mid-grab.

I know that it is possible to buffer and escape that dair stuff, so it makes sense that you can shine as well.

 

[knightpraetor]

does anyone risk jabbing vs marth? is it still worth doing at high level play when they can CC while dashing? or should i just spotdodge and shine...the problem is (if i remember correctly) marth tends to constantly pressure spotdodges while dashdancing, and the shine is outranged by marth's grab if he spaces well (so if you're stationary [such as after a spotdodge] it's pretty easy for him to avoid the shine)

 

[RaynEX]

nah. Less jab more shine. Thats what I do now.

Also knight sorry for not responding yet. I'll answer some of your questions later tonight.

 

[Binx]

Marth can grab you from jabs too, I'm pretty sure it extends the box where he grabs you from your hand instead of your body, at least it seems that way when I'm trying to jab marth and he grabs me. If you think he will camp for a spot dodge thats when you should attack him, depending on percent I go for a grab or dash attack, of you think he will just charge with a grab, or suspect that he will dash dance one time before grabbing you can try to spot dodge his grab, if your wrong in either case you end up taking a LOT of damage.

 

[RaynEX]

Marth can grab you from jabs too, I'm pretty sure it extends the box where he grabs you from your hand instead of your body, at least it seems that way when I'm trying to jab marth and he grabs me. If you think he will camp for a spot dodge thats when you should attack him, depending on percent I go for a grab or dash attack, of you think he will just charge with a grab, or suspect that he will dash dance one time before grabbing you can try to spot dodge his grab, if your wrong in either case you end up taking a LOT of damage.

What knight means is that he DDs and waits for a jab or anything else he can CC-grab. If you dash attack, that'll get you killed vs. the kind of Marths he is talking about. Dash attack can be CCed by Marth in excesses of 70%.

If Marth DD camps you, wait for him to run back and overshoot a grab or usmash. i.e.: aim for the space behind where he is running because when you approach he is obviously going to try to run away then turn-around grab.

Alternatively, use platforms and get around his zoning from the air. You have be careful and watch of his stupid sword hitboxes though. One well timed utilt could lead to grab-death.

 

[Binx]

Thats pretty much what I was saying, although even crouch canceled I haven't had Marths punish me past 45% or so because if you time the dash attack so you hit with the stronger part it knocks them down and they have to tech it.

Good clarification on aiming for the spot behind them though because some people might not know to do that without being told.

 

[RaynEX]

Thats pretty much what I was saying, although even crouch canceled I haven't had Marths punish me past 45% or so because if you time the dash attack so you hit with the stronger part it knocks them down and they have to tech it.

Good clarification on aiming for the spot behind them though because some people might not know to do that without being told.

I'm pretty sure dash attack can be CCed higher than 45% even if the strong hit connects. Its knockback is very low, thats why it combos so well.

Someone should find out how long Marth can CC it.

 

[Binx]

If I had a second controller I'd see, but like I said my friends haven't been punishing it at the percents I use it, maybe cause I don't do it to often, or maybe cause they don't know how. But I am pretty sure it works, I see PC using it vs M2K plenty.

 

[RaynEX]

I see PC using it vs M2K plenty.

Neither of them CC as well as some of the players I play. CC grab on reflex is hard to do if you're not used to it.

The Marth I play CC grabs me for every jab, almost every nair, and most dash attacks/bairs I attempt.
'
Soap will tell you. He CCs so much it makes the Sheik vs. Marth match-up seem not that bad for Marth when Sheik tilt/jab spams. lulz

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

Guys what's the best way to intercept a Peach who is floating out of range of usmash and shffl'd nair? fj nair is ok but quite often the peach will nair/bair me before neither of us land which is gay

unrelated to that: about the vs samus matchup how about pressuring with spaced bairs and utilts? I'm almost sure you can't up-b OoS to punish that, even with shield DI. (utilt has more range then it looks like)
just a thought...

 

[RaynEX]

Guys what's the best way to intercept a Peach who is floating out of range of usmash and shffl'd nair? fj nair is ok but quite often the peach will nair/bair me before neither of us land which is gay

unrelated to that: about the vs samus matchup how about pressuring with spaced bairs and utilts? I'm almost sure you can't up-b OoS to punish that, even with shield DI. (utilt has more range then it looks like)
just a thought...

Vs. Peach's float:

-walk under and perfectly space an utilt. At the tip it can even straight up beat Falco's dair. Try it, its mad easy. If Peach fairs you should walk slowly under her so the utilt hits and her fair misses. You can also walk forward and turn around and usmash. Going really close and usmashing like that almost guarantees a trade which will work out in your favour at higher percents.

-Laser and back up a bit

-Run and shield, make sure you block the jabs/dsmash that might come after the aerial. If the Peach you are playing likes to fair->dash away, react and WD out of shield towards her and overshoot usmash/grab.

-FJ nair is good, but why not try uair. lol iuno sometimes just FJ uair in that situation works for me. It has deceptive range horizontally, and sometimes you just drag her in even though you aren't that close to her.

-space yourself so that when she lands with an aerial you are just outside its range and can usmash/dtilt.

those are the things I would do anyways.

You're right about the Samus stuff too.

 

[Tero.]

Guys what's the best way to intercept a Peach who is floating out of range of usmash and shffl'd nair? fj nair is ok but quite often the peach will nair/bair me before neither of us land which is gay

try to run past her and then fj bair

 

[PenguinBox]

Which CP stage is better for Fox: Green Greens or Corneria?

 

[Oskurito]

Green greens has lower ceiling (and all parts of the stage) but corneria is better for camping. Is just a matter of preference.

 

[RaynEX]

My new level as Fox is Rainbow Cruise.

Lots of room to run, and low ceiling, gimping opportunities, easy waveshine kills and areas with slopes to help you even more...

that place is awesome. I usually CP Corneria though. What ends up happening is at U.S. tournaments everyone bans Corneria instead of Green Greens, even though Green Greens is worse (for them).

lol, (G)reen (G)reen(s) = GGs when you play as Fox there. Such a gay level.

 

[Europhoria]

Alright guys. So awesome news, RaynEX got a job at a place called "Mr. Shine". This is not a joke.

 

[knightpraetor]

can someone explain to me when you do the backthrow to run off nair into shine? I've seen it done, but don't do it.

Do you wait for their jump and then run off? i thought i remembered LOZR running off immediately when he played me...but then, how do you deal with a firefox at max distance..do you just phantasm the ledge (not sure if you can get ot it before them, but i would assume so)

anyways, just wanted to make sure on that

Another question, if you hit with a dair and attempt to grab afterwards, will a jab beat you out? i know they can spotdodge and other things, but what about jab...i was just curious.

Finally, my biggest question is uptilt vs upsmash during low % chaingrabs, which is hardest to get out of?

I think that upsmash to regrab doesn't work till at least 30 if it works at all, while uptilt works, not sure about the DI effects on the two moves though, a harder move ought to be easier to get out of, so I think i should switch to uptilt.

However, even while uptilting i think the fox has a chance to DI out..which way does he DI to get out? does anyone know?

also, if they DI behind you, should you turn around and uptilt them or uptilt them where you are? i'm not sure? and i'm not sure what their best DI option is either.

Sorry for all the specific questions. Thanks for the help

 

[PenguinBox]

Grab ASAP after the drill and they can't escape your grab.

...Uh, you can't really U-Smash to regrab unless you mean tech chasing at low percents. U-Tilt works around the lower mid percentages though.

 

[Falcinho]

^not true

i don't know how big the frame window is, but it also depends on how well you space and fastfall the drill and your enemies SDI
---
run off nair into shine? you're sure you don't mean FJ nair to DJ shine?
if yes,do it when your enemy very often recovers the same way and wait for the right moment.
it can get you ***** tho =/
---
Im too lazy to look for it , but RayNEX wrote a decent post about how you can't get out of Fox' uthrow-chaingrab against fastfallers (or only fox dittos, not sure) until about 55%.

uthrow--> utilt becomes good somewhere between 10-20% imo cuz regrabbing gets easier.

and yeah, uthrow-->usmash only leads to techchases at low %ages

 

[DtJ Jungle]

yeah it was 55 falcinho

yeah uthrow utilt is sweet.

techchasing is sweet tho.

 

[knightpraetor]

yeah i meant nair to shine, i've been trying to get used to edgeguarding falco off of bthrow/ upthrow to shine and practice my gimping game.

it seems that upthrow to shine doesn't give you enough time to run off and nair to shine though if they jump immediately..am i better off just facing away from the ledge and bair/dsmashing them?


also, if you run off before they choose their recovery option, then how do you deal with the firefox, usually you're too high to punish before it starts moving..so do you just trade falling nair and then reset?


finally, does anyone know the maximum height at which you can fastfall a dair into shine without getting shield grabbed? i assume that if they grab you that means that you ran out of dair hits for stun (though i don't know how many hits there are), but basically i'm having trouble avoiding shieldgrab from dair unless I do the dair extremely late so only 1-3 hits of the dair hit. I keep thinking that when i just full jump and fastfall dair normally it looks like hits continue from about two fox heights up all the way to the ground; so i would think i could start early and still avoid getting shieldgrabbed.


falcinho, you were saying that dair to grab isn't guaranteed...which i'd always thought was true, but based on your post, you make it sound like with perfect spacing, and no smash DI, not chance to spotdodge is available..is that true? Cause if so, I'm going to work on recognizing when it is a perfect dair hit and when it isn't.

 

[3747373796432]

Is there any use for dair > utilt? I tested it on some characters in AR and it combos (if you don't SDI).

 

[yellowroy]

I'm trying to practice to shdl perfectly but how do you do it?

 

[Smooth Criminal]

Alright guys. So awesome news, RaynEX got a job at a place called "Mr. Shine". This is not a joke.

I'm sigging this.

Too good.

Smooth Criminal

 

[RaynEX]

I'm sigging this.

Too good.

Smooth Criminal

lol <3

the job is sick.

 

[RaynEX]

Is there any use for dair > utilt? I tested it on some characters in AR and it combos (if you don't SDI).

It combos if you land behind them with dair, or you dair and you aren't facing them.

 

[idea]

tell us about your job.

 

[Anonymous.]

So everyone agrees I have the best fox in the world basically.

Right guys?

 

[KirbyKaze]

**** you mother****er

 

[DtJ Jungle]

no seriosuly. wtf do you do at MR SHINE

 

[Falcinho]

it seems that upthrow to shine doesn't give you enough time to run off and nair to shine though if they jump immediately..am i better off just facing away from the ledge and bair/dsmashing them?


also, if you run off before they choose their recovery option, then how do you deal with the firefox, usually you're too high to punish before it starts moving..so do you just trade falling nair and then reset?


falcinho, you were saying that dair to grab isn't guaranteed...which i'd always thought was true, but based on your post, you make it sound like with perfect spacing, and no smash DI, not chance to spotdodge is available..is that true? Cause if so, I'm going to work on recognizing when it is a perfect dair hit and when it isn't.

basically its not a good thing to jump out everytime to edgeguard.
Only do it if you think it will myke your enemy nervous enough to recover stupidly
OR if recovers the same way very often.
IE if a Falco always waits then tries to sweetspot the ledge with DJ+sideB

If you already jumped out you can try to shine him out of his firefox, it's not thath hard.

And no, you can always spotdodge to avoid a drillgrab, i think

And for the height thingy: yeah just get a feeling for it.
If you space your aerial you can also start it very early without getting shieldgrabbed

 

[Tero.]

So everyone agrees I have the best fox in the world basically.

Right guys?

I agr...

wait ... what?

 

[knightpraetor]

what do you mean by space the aerial...do i have to be farther out from fox/falco to avoid getting shieldgrabbed? i didn't think you could space a dair out of shieldgrab range.

I was also wondering what happens when you hit a shield, i know you take hitstun frames in which you can't move, which also slows your fall.

However, during the slowed fall, do your dair hits keep coming during the hitstun or do they pause?

because if they keep going then i can't hit the top of a shield too early or i won't have any dair hit right before touching the ground.

Anywyas, i have much higher accuracy avoiding a shieldgrab the closer i am to the ground when i start the dair, that's why i was wondering if i was doing something wrong.

 

[Cactuar]

Lulz. Lasers are stupid.

 

[Falcinho]

Ofc you can space the drill, you don't even have to hit the shield if the result is that your opponent waits in his shield to get a grab and then ends up in the bad position.
However, i would rather do nairs/bairs against a shield.

I'm not sure bout the other thing, but it could be that because you miss the fastfall because of the lag.