Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[SnowballBob33]

Maybe we should split this poll up into a few sections (I don't know how easy that would be to do). This could find the true source of the problem and maybe eliminate some of the confusion and be able to make a clear conclusion.

The poll could be split up into:
Is MK the center of brawl's metagame?
Does MK destroy the counterpick system?
Is MK broken?
Is mid level of play important?
If MK was gone, would any other character be banworthy?
Is it important that MK mains may quit brawl if MK is banned?
Is it important that people quit brawl but may return if he gets banned?
maybe some more questions

If one of those votes are extremely one sided, then we could go and see if that makes him banworthy. It could see where the community stands on the topics which are concerning everyone.

 

[BarDulL]

Hasn't diddy been outplacing marths at national tournament for quite some time?

i'm not entirely certain where you're going with this, but the match up ratios determined by both character boards say that it is in marth's favor.

 

[Palpi]

I know it is in Marths favor, regardless Snake is higher than D3 who has 55-45 or 6-4 over him?

I mean, diddy is deserving of his spot because diddy has consistantly placed better better than marths are big tournaments.

 

[infomon]

The ledge grab rule is very inefficient as far as planking goes, because it doesn't even prevent planking.
(...)
The thing about planking is that I'm almost certain we don't know enough about it. Other than the characters who can known beat it, not many character boards actually looked into it far. I don't recall anybody getting frame-data on, "the perfect plank," and seeing the vulnerability frames, etc.

I just remember, "OMFG PLANKING, MAEK A RULE PLZ."

Quoted for amazing win.

And yes, we did ban IDC a little quick, but few ppl really cared either, since the vast majority of competitive players are convinced it completely breaks the game, and it's not anywhere near as drastic as banning a character.

Brawl stagebans tend to be over-hasty in banning things people don't understand.

Banning a character matters way more than any of that, so yes, we should exercise due diligence and wait for proof that MK is ban-worthy. Same goes for unverifiable "judgement call" tactics.

 

[BBQTV]

i haven't decided to vote yes or no yet and i think im not going to

 

[etecoon]

i'm not entirely certain where you're going with this, but the match up ratios determined by both character boards say that it is in marth's favor.

I've seen some diddy's claim that it's even, I don't think I agree with that but I do keep in mind that both of the best marth's have lost to diddy's in recent memory(mikehaze vs dojo and neo vs ADHD)...I think it's in marth's favor but maybe not by that much, MK only has 55:45 on diddy after all.

The ledge grab rule is very inefficient as far as planking goes, because it doesn't even prevent planking.

ledge grab rule prevents anyone other than MK from planking lolseewhereimgoingwiththis

 

[superyoshi888]

Ah, I see. Well then, banning him would cause the competitive communities of different countries to split even further then. For example, would we really want to turn away many European/Japanese players if we were to host another tournament like Genesis because we banned Meta Knight? If we choose to allow him for the one tournament, that means American players are screwed because they wouldn't practice the match up. Same goes for an American brawler in an European/Japanese tournament....because they haven't practiced the match up, they basically are in trouble if they come across a Meta Knight.

This is one of the main reasons I'm against the ban.

Anyone want to respond to this?

 

[phi1ny3]

I've seen some diddy's claim that it's even, I don't think I agree with that but I do keep in mind that both of the best marth's have lost to diddy's in recent memory(mikehaze vs dojo and neo vs ADHD)...I think it's in marth's favor but maybe not by that much, MK only has 55:45 on diddy after all.



ledge grab rule prevents anyone other than MK from planking lolseewhereimgoingwiththis

Just because MK has better versions of tools marth has in the MK vs. Marth MU doesn't necessarily mean it makes him better in every MU.

 

[etecoon]

oh I agree with that, although I'd disagree that MK's tools are strictly better though, there are a few things marth does better, I just personally think MK does better vs diddy than marth.

 

[ShinoBee]

Ah, I see. Well then, banning him would cause the competitive communities of different countries to split even further then. For example, would we really want to turn away many European/Japanese players if we were to host another tournament like Genesis because we banned Meta Knight? If we choose to allow him for the one tournament, that means American players are screwed because they wouldn't practice the match up. Same goes for an American brawler in an European/Japanese tournament....because they haven't practiced the match up, they basically are in trouble if they come across a Meta Knight.

This is one of the main reasons I'm against the ban.

THIS.

But I don't remember any Japanese players at Genesis though. >_>

 

[da K.I.D.]

oh I agree with that, although I'd disagree that MK's tools are strictly better though, there are a few things marth does better, I just personally think MK does better vs diddy than marth.

didnt mikeHAZE lose to 2 diddys at HOBO over this past weekend.

also, the idea that banning MK at this point in time will make people unprepared for the MK matchup is BS

 

[BarDulL]

I know it is in Marths favor, regardless Snake is higher than D3 who has 55-45 or 6-4 over him?

I mean, diddy is deserving of his spot because diddy has consistantly placed better better than marths are big tournaments.

you'd really have to look into who the diddy kong players beat and who they lost to, as well as who the marth players beat/who they lost to at those big events.

take genesis, for instance. i lost to m2k and dojo and placed 13th (both m2k/dojo placed in the top 4) while ADHD got 5th (losing to ally/tyrant, also top 4). i don't think this shows that diddy should be placed over marth on the tier list based on this event because there isn't any real way to compare my results with adhd's. we never fought the same person, nor did we fight each other.

it still affects the tier list, however, because certain characters get over hyped even though there are still many match ups to consider.

edit: as for mike at hobo 17, he is only 1 marth player, and this has only occured once.

 

[MarKO X]

Well, here's the thing.....

With the hotshot banning of planking (and IDC to a lesser extent that kinda has nothing to do with this particular point), it seems to me that the entire situation behind MK has something fishy about it. If planking gives MK 9-1 MUs but everyone else can deal with it from everyone else (which we don't truly know due to a lack of evidence), then right there, MK is broken.

Unless you're gonna tell me it was not "scrubby" to ban planking without evidence...

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Maybe we should split this poll up into a few sections (I don't know how easy that would be to do). This could find the true source of the problem and maybe eliminate some of the confusion and be able to make a clear conclusion.

The poll could be split up into:
Is MK the center of brawl's metagame?
Does MK destroy the counterpick system?
Is MK broken?
Is mid level of play important?
If MK was gone, would any other character be banworthy?
Is it important that MK mains may quit brawl if MK is banned?
Is it important that people quit brawl but may return if he gets banned?
maybe some more questions

If one of those votes are extremely one sided, then we could go and see if that makes him banworthy. It could see where the community stands on the topics which are concerning everyone.

...

Um... Am I the only one who thinks this is a good idea?

 

[etecoon]

didnt mikeHAZE lose to 2 diddys at HOBO over this past weekend.

also, the idea that banning MK at this point in time will make people unprepared for the MK matchup is BS

I don't know who else he lost to, just dojo...I do think there is truth to it, why practice/study a matchup that no longer has relevance? people aren't going to have the same sharp anti MK game they do now if he is banned, and will be blindsided when they have to deal with him again.

 

[ShinoBee]

Thanks a lot guys. I barely get to play against MKs in tournaments.

And really, if you want Smash to be treated like a fighting game, why does the banning conditions have to be different? It might not be a traditional fighting game, but it should have to go through the same criteria if it doesn't want to be treated like a joke game. Like why should he be banned just because people are having a hard time to beat him? That sounds more like butthurt to me. Do you even see GG players complaining about banning Eddie?

Also, MK might be getting a banhammer in Norcal at this rate. Ugh.

 

[mikeHAZE]

you'd really have to look into who the diddy kong players beat and who they lost to, as well as who the marth players beat/who they lost to at those big events.

take genesis, for instance. i lost to m2k and dojo and placed 13th (both m2k/dojo placed in the top 4) while ADHD got 5th (losing to ally/tyrant, also top 4). i don't think this shows that diddy should be placed over marth on the tier list based on this event because there isn't any real way to compare my results with adhd's. we never fought the same person, nor did we fight each other.

it still affects the tier list, however, because certain characters get over hyped even though there are still many match ups to consider.

edit: as for mike at hobo 17, he is only 1 marth player, and this has only occured once.

i blame it on matchup knowledge, west coast has no diddys, i did get ***** though, dont take that as me discrediting dojo or Gnes, they're really good.

I did beat Dojo's metaknight in a money match after the tournament.

 

[Clai]

Optimum momentum canceling is obtained by fast falling during a short duration aerial while in hitstun, and then jumping towards a corner of the blast zone (If you're launched horizontally) to redirect the rest of your momentum along as long a path as you can. If you've got a momentum stopper like G&W, you can use that after the fast falled aerial instead of jumping.

Because Meta Knight not only has the shortest duration aerial in the game (upair) to get him out of hitstun as quickly as is possible, but also has multiple jumps (something few characters have) to help redirect his momentum even further upwards than if he had only one jump, Meta Knight has the best momentum canceling in the game (when you exclude special attack momentum cancels such as bucket braking and DK's Upb).

For this reason, Meta Knight's survivability is on par with characters a fairly good amount heavier than himself. To get a small idea of what difference that is... I personally, when I use MK against a character with about average kill power, I usually live to around an average of about (guesstimating, obviously) 160% every stock (I've got great DI), as opposed to about 180-190% with Snake, and 130-140% with Olimar. (That's assuming I miss a whistle or something and rely on momentum canceling to help me out. I'll live much longer with good whistle use, obviously.)

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

Metaknight has the 9th fastest fall speed in the game, but the fifth lowest weight in the game. I will give it to you that Metaknight does have the up-air and fall speed good enough to raise his chances of survival, but if you hit MK with a move that has good knockback, MK is going to be sent way too fast for MK to get in more than the up-air + a jump.

As for better momentum cancellers, Link and Snake would like a word with Metaknight before up-tilting him to his death.

 

[Cloud9157]

I like to use the Melee/Brawl comparison. In Melee, all the top characters beat each other, with no character being truly superior to the others.

Brawl, MK reigns over all of them. He has nothing worse than even or 55/45, and the only character considered that is Snake.

If MK is kicked out, characters will all balance each other out. They all go even or 55-45 with each other, with maybe a few advantages like 6-4 Falco vs D3, 6-4 GaW vs Falco etc.

I would honestly rather see a 6-10 character Meta game than a MK along with some other S/A tier characters.

 

[fox219]

wow.. meta knight isn't "broken"

 

[BarDulL]

wow.. meta knight isn't "broken"

says the MK main.

 

[A New England Winter]

Is it just me, or is that "No" italicized?

 

[Clai]

Maybe we should split this poll up into a few sections (I don't know how easy that would be to do). This could find the true source of the problem and maybe eliminate some of the confusion and be able to make a clear conclusion.

The poll could be split up into:
Is MK the center of brawl's metagame?
Does MK destroy the counterpick system?
Is MK broken?
Is mid level of play important?
If MK was gone, would any other character be banworthy?
Is it important that MK mains may quit brawl if MK is banned?
Is it important that people quit brawl but may return if he gets banned?
maybe some more questions

If one of those votes are extremely one sided, then we could go and see if that makes him banworthy. It could see where the community stands on the topics which are concerning everyone.

The problem with that poll is that anyone who wants to ban Metaknight not because he's actually worthy of being banned, but for simple spite of the character (which a good numbers of people are already doing in this poll), then they're just going to answer the way that is going to make the chances of Metaknight getting banned as high as possible. With these answers skewed, the community could be forced to make a decision without knowing whether there are problems actually affecting the community or they were problems listed, "for the lulz."

In short, people who have no say in determing whether Metaknight should be banned from tournaments or now would have an even greater chance of impacting the decision than this poll is accomplishing now.

 

[POKE40]

I like to use the Melee/Brawl comparison. In Melee, all the top characters beat each other, with no character being truly superior to the others.

Brawl, MK reigns over all of them. He has nothing worse than even or 55/45, and the only character considered that is Snake.

If MK is kicked out, characters will all balance each other out. They all go even or 55-45 with each other, with maybe a few advantages like 6-4 Falco vs D3, 6-4 GaW vs Falco etc.

I would honestly rather see a 6-10 character Meta game than a MK along with some other S/A tier characters.

And so you voted yes
IC also has a 50:50

But I think that changed :/

 

[Red Arremer]

In Melee, all the top characters beat each other, with no character being truly superior to the others.

Fox has no bad matchups.

Brawl, MK reigns over all of them. He has nothing worse than even or 55/45, and the only character considered that is Snake.

Wrong.

 

[BarDulL]

Is it just me, or is that "No" italicized?

when you vote in a poll, your choice will be italicized whenever you look at it.

 

[JUDGE]

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=162546

Metaknight has the 9th fastest fall speed in the game, but the fifth lowest weight in the game. I will give it to you that Metaknight does have the up-air and fall speed good enough to raise his chances of survival, but if you hit MK with a move that has good knockback, MK is going to be sent way too fast for MK to get in more than the up-air + a jump.

As for better momentum cancellers, Link and Snake would like a word with Metaknight before up-tilting him to his death.

that is truely a weekness of mk
but before you hit him with a strong move, he already racked up to much damage on you
and can easily throw you out of the stage with dsmash or shuttle loop and edgeguard you there

 

[POKE40]

Is it just me, or is that "No" italicized?

Thank you for voting "no"


<3

 

[BarDulL]

Fox has no bad matchups.

wrong.

Wrong.

wrong again.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Is it just me, or is that "No" italicized?

holy **** it is for me too!!

HOW DOES THAT HAPPEN

when you vote in a poll, your choice will be italicized whenever you look at it.

i think hes either trolling or being sarcastic either way its an amusing way to document his discovery with us

 

[momochuu]

I'm assuming it does that for the vote that you picked. My "Yes" is italicized.

 

[gm jack]

How is the second point wrong? Wario goes even with MK, as does Falco, and I believe Diddy is very close to 50:50.

 

[BoTastic!]

How is the second point wrong? Wario goes even with MK, as does Falco, and I believe Diddy is very close to 50:50.

I wonder why fiction voted yes..

 

[Renegade TX2000]

lol... AntiBan is like reading 5th grade english class all over again. Good god grow some sense guys seriously. lol especially spadefox I laugh everytime at one of his posts. For people saying mk vs wario is 50/50, is that "before" or "after" you figure the match up out? lol "COUGH BEFORE" then it turns 55/45 or 60/40 after mk figures it out lulz.

 

[Frown]

lol... AntiBan is like reading 5th grade english class all over again. Good god grow some sense guys seriously. lol especially spadefox I laugh everytime at one of his posts. For people saying mk vs wario is 50/50, is that "before" or "after" you figure the match up out? lol "COUGH BEFORE" then it turns 55/45 or 60/40.

While I disagree with a lot of the stuff Spadefox says (Because I'm biased... that's why I'm not voting -.-), he's doing it well.

 

[Red Arremer]

especially spadefox I laugh everytime at one of his posts.

Well, at least I am able to properly spell English, despite it not being my native tongue.
If someone who speaks my native tongue better than me and not speaking this language natively, I'd be VERY ashamed of myself.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Well, at least I am able to properly spell English, despite it not being my native tongue.
If someone who speaks my native tongue better than me and not speaking this language natively, I'd be VERY ashamed of myself.

what can i say the internet and English language have low standards compared to Europe's

i already know i cant spell WELP

 

[Red Arremer]

what can i say the internet and English language have low standards compared to Europe's

i already know i cant spell WELP

Writing everything lowercase is actually tolerable.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

WELP Europe, we still have our meta knights, black presidents and the most messed up policy for dealing with the economic recession





Yea we're GOLDEN over here

 

[BarDulL]

Well, at least I am able to properly spell English, despite it not being my native tongue.
If someone who speaks my native tongue better than me and not speaking this language natively, I'd be VERY ashamed of myself.

being a grammar nazi doesn't empower one's argument...i could care less what your native tongue is if you make logical points and elaborate on them in a way that i can understand.

"wrong" isn't an adequate answer in a debate, however. it's a very vague response and doesn't prove anything, let alone make a point in which i can address.