Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Masmasher@]

Every community has done so INCLUDING the SF3 community. -_-
Its a good way to make a short term tier list.

I did not know short term lists were made by tournaments for home console only games. I thought it was only for arcade games cause you cant really study the matchup/character data best in a arcade. Espcially since most arcade gamers come out a year before their home console version.

 

[Eddie G]

Maybe comparing Melee MUs to Brawl MUs makes no sense to you, but consider this: Fox could be Cp'd.

MK? Nope. No CP gives him a worse matchup than even. No one beats him anywhere. Not Falco at Japes, not Snake at Green Greens, not Diddy at FD.

He breaks the CP system, that is just about all we need to ban him. The system has never failed up until now, and we want to keep him in the game?

Yeah but then they eventually lose because they suck and have 7-3 matchups against a character like Sheik.
Dthrow all day my boy.

Just because its pretty doesn't make it better. If anything Brawl has shown LESS 7-3 matchups than melee, so hush.

Yeah...misinterpretations ftw. You hush.

 

[Red Arremer]

When you CP someone with a stage, you are supposed to gain a clear advantage.

Says whom?

 

[etecoon]

That was complete stupidity, that thread.

Ohhh! CP'ing MK with Falco at Japes will give me an even matchup! Therefore MK does not break the system.

BULL****

When you CP someone with a stage, you are supposed to gain a clear advantage. Oli against Falco at Japes for example. Falco will have him at a 6-4 easily.

Just getting MK to a 5-5 using your character AND a stage doesn't mean he does not break the CP system. He walks into the match with nothing worse than even or 45-55, which no character has ever done in SSBs.

if you think all CP's should be free wins then why bother playing games 2 and 3 to begin with?

 

[ShadowLink84]

I would not be opposed to give the public poll more weight if there wouldn't be people voting who don't play Brawl, don't go to tournaments or play competitively, are alt accounts, vote for the lulz or stupid reasons ("I wanna see what M2K mains if Meta gets banned", etc.), or simply have no idea what they're talking about.

However, as it stands, I personally am actually opposing giving this poll any weight in our decision whatsoever - simply because of said reasons.
Both sides are at fault here, by the way.

Move it to debate hall then. I think it would have been better off there than in general discussion

 

[Cloud9157]

Says whom?

Me for one, maybe a few other people that agree with me.

My point is that every character gets beaten by a CP somehow. No one has ever been above the system, and has always gone into the match with a 6-4 with a CP stage+character. MK does not let that happen. He has a disadvantage to no one and does just as well as Oli@Norfair, Falco@Japes, or Diddy@FD.

And I don't think they should be free wins. They should put you at a clear advantage though.

Answer me this: Is there another character that goes no worse than 45-55 against a CP'd stage+character? Does Marth, or Link, or Fox, or Zamus? Do any of the rest do that?

 

[Red Arremer]

And I don't think they should be free wins. They should put you at a clear advantage though.

Well, a "clear advantage" is a free win, after all.

Considering that 60:40 matchups still are very winnable for the disadvantaged party. That digit simply means that the disadvantaged party doesn't have all options they usually have, but they still can win. So it's not a "clear advantage" at all.

Good explanation of matchup numbers (kudos to Praxis):
50:50 very even matchup. Definition should be fairly obvious.

55:45 No character has a true solid advantage, but one has seemingly better/easier tools, or one character profits more from winning a rock/paper/scissors guessing game.

60:40 One character has clearly better tools in the matchup. However, the other character does have responses him, and the matchup is still winnable through outplaying the opponent or outspacing his tools and countering with the weaker ones well placed.

65:35 One character has options that shut down the other's options. Counterpicking should be considered, but it's not completely unwinnable, but rather simply requires one player to far outplay the other.

70:30 Something about the character in the advantage completely shuts down the other character. Counterpicking, or rely on them not knowing the matchup and you knowing it incredibly well.

Anything past 70:30; "gay" matchups like Dedede vs DK.

 

[gm jack]

Me for one, maybe a few other people that agree with me.

My point is that every character gets beaten by a CP somehow. No one has ever been above the system, and has always gone into the match with a 6-4 with a CP stage+character. MK does not let that happen. He has a disadvantage to no one and does just as well as Oli@Norfair, Falco@Japes, or Diddy@FD.

And I don't think they should be free wins. They should put you at a clear advantage though.

This is you making a decision on what it is for. It was make so the loser of the previous match can pick the stage and a character in response to the opponent. Trying to get an advantage is just standard procedure for most people.

 

[MarKO X]

So after seeing both sides, arguing, trolling, responding to stuff, and asking a few questions, I think the entire MetaKnight discussion, both pro-ban and anti-ban, is faulty. The faultiness of the discussion comes from the ledge grab rule, which was pretty much created upon the same "scrub-like" terms (according to many anti-banners) of banning MK himself. Instead of seeing if there are ways to beat it, TOs just said, "No planking. Kthx."

Interestingly enough, there is this in the SBR ruleset:

Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

So technically, running away from the opponent to get to the ledge, also know as planking, is allowed under the SBR ruleset. The question is whether or not you are capable of doing anything about planking from any character with any character, not just MetaKnight. This is important because, as many people have said, MK is not the only one who can plank. The answer... nobody knows, because you can only grab the ledge 50 times. Even if you were to max it out, it's about 16 times per stock, plus 2 extra grabs (assuming perfect math and stuff, but yeah). Most players/characters don't need 16 grabs per stock if the traditional plank style isn't their strategy.

Now because there is a limit to number of times someone can grab the ledge, one could assume that this has discouraged/weakened planking... but did it really? You have two isolated incidents, one being Plank vs DaPuffster, one being Dojo vs DEHF. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this discussion has seen Plank vs DaPuffster, but only a few select eyes have seen Dojo vs DEHF, which one could assume is on a higher level of play assuming the players involved (no disrespect to Plank or Puff, it's just an assumption). I really wish that Dojo vs DEHF could be seen by the general public, because I think that match could really settle if this new air planking is a legit game breaking strategy or if it just makes the Falco matchup obsolete. But all we know about air planking is:

1) MK says STFU to the 50 ledge grab rule with his 5 jumps, 4 specials, and 2 glides that aid his ability to stay in the air.
2) MK is 2-0 in matches where he air planks, although 2 matches is not a sufficient enough sample size to definitively determine anything.

So I've come to the conclusion that the discussion on banning MK is inconclusive because:
1) The ledge grab rule is not of the SBR ruleset, but everyone seems to use it.
2) Air planking under the ledge grab rule is "soft banned" in a sense, because people are not doing it on a consistent enough basis to see if it is a game breaking strategy.

If theory and potential is not enough to ban MetaKnight, then MetaKnight won't get banned, but the theory and the potential is enough to create the scare... and as long as this "fear" exists without it be truly proven or unproven, the ban MetaKnight discussion may always exist.

discuss.

 

[BarDulL]

qft



Breaking the CP system doesn't matter. Every other fighting game ever has one or two characters that can't be countered.

i beg to differ. being able to use a character good enough to break the CP system defeats the purpose of having a CP system in the first place...and since the nature of competitive smash has always revolved around counterpicking, this implies that MK is a character that should be banned to balance out the counter picking system.

so why doesn't it matter, again?

 

[Cloud9157]

Well, a "clear advantage" is a free win, after all.

Considering that 60:40 matchups still are very winnable for the disadvantaged party. That digit simply means that the disadvantaged party doesn't have all options they usually have, but they still can win. So it's not a "clear advantage" at all.

Explain how a clear advantage=Free win...?

It's clear that I am using a longsword and you are using a dagger for example. CLEAR ADVANTAGE. Does that mean I'm going to beat you? Not in the least, so I don't get a free win by just swinging the sword at you.

I would think free win=Guarantee that I will win. There are no guarantees.


If the loser picks a CP character and stage, wouldn't he ideally want to get an advantage over his opponent?

 

[MarKO X]

"clear advantage" equaling a free win assumes everything is equal, including skill, knowledge, luck, etc.

 

[Masmasher@]

Countering somebody doesnt exactly mean that you are supposed to come out with a advantage. It just means putting YOURSELF it a better position. If you rely that much on a counterpick system then ether this game is shallow or you have little faith in your actual skills.
pick one

 

[Red Arremer]

Explain how a clear advantage=Free win...?

It's clear that I am using a longsword and you are using a dagger for example. CLEAR ADVANTAGE. Does that mean I'm going to beat you? Not in the least, so I don't get a free win by just swinging the sword at you.

I would think free win=Guarantee that I will win. There are no guarantees.

Assuming that a "clear advantage" means a matchup of 65:35 or worse, then yes, considering the facts, you should win that game easily. Of course, there are chances that you royally screw up, but the chances that I will win are very low.

If the loser picks a CP character and stage, wouldn't he ideally want to get an advantage over his opponent?

Of course they would ideally want an advantage. They just don't need it.

Counterpicking is a strategy for you as loser of a match to put yourself into a more favourable position. In the best case, this means you easily can beat your opponent. In a good case, you will at least be even with your opponent. In the worse case, you will still be disadvantaged, but not as much as before. In the worst case, you won't be able to make use of this strategy at all and either stay in the same disadvantaged position or are in a worse disadvantage.

If you want a "clear advantage", then you want to have an utterly easy time. As etecoon said - if you want easily winnable matches ("clear advantages"), then why would you want to play more than one set anyway?

 

[Cloud9157]

Countering somebody doesnt exactly mean that you are supposed to come out with a advantage. It just means putting YOURSELF it a better position. If you rely that much on a counterpick system then ether this game is shallow or you have little faith in your actual skills.
pick one

But everyone know's that Brawl is shallow. Last I checked it was anyway.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Yeah...misinterpretations ftw. You hush.

You're being dumb. Go back and read. I was responding to YOU not cloud

That or you're aiming for some point.

 

[Eddie G]

You're being dumb. Go back and read. I was responding to YOU not cloud

That or you're aiming for some point.

I pointed out that you BOTH misinterpreted what I posted for something totally different.

"Yeah...misinterpretationS ftw."

You go back and read.

You're trying too hard to look cool on the internet. It may work in your little "logic-fests", but when it comes to simple concepts it seems as if you're at a loss. Try too hard to embarrass another so much and it eventually backfires.

 

[Cloud9157]

Assuming that a "clear advantage" means a matchup of 65:35 or worse, then yes, considering the facts, you should win that game easily. Of course, there are chances that you royally screw up, but the chances that I will win are very low.



Of course they would ideally want an advantage. They just don't need it.

Counterpicking is a strategy for you as loser of a match to put yourself into a more favourable position. In the best case, this means you easily can beat your opponent. In a good case, you will at least be even with your opponent. In the worse case, you will still be disadvantaged, but not as much as before. In the worst case, you won't be able to make use of this strategy at all and either stay in the same disadvantaged position or are in a worse disadvantage.

If you want a "clear advantage", then you want to have an utterly easy time. As etecoon said - if you want easily winnable matches ("clear advantages"), then why would you want to play more than one set anyway?

Regardless of if you want a winnable match or an even fight, you won't accomplish what you would by CP'ing Marth with Snake and Green Greens, with MK. If you try CP'ing him with Snake at GGs, then it hardly matters because he will still be at a near even MU.

MK has no bad stages. Everyone has some kind of bad stage, whether it be 20 stages or 2.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Hi everyone. I think we could get more done if we develop a solution for the EDC.

 

[Red Arremer]

Regardless of if you want a winnable match or an even fight, you won't accomplish what you would by CP'ing Marth with Snake and Green Greens, with MK. If you try CP'ing him with Snake at GGs, then it hardly matters because he will still be at a near even MU.

I repeat: Counterpicking is a strategy, not a necessity.
If you counterpick badly, you will suffer the consequences.
As I said: In the worse and worst scenarios, you will be still disadvantaged (though better than before) or you will be in the same disadvantage or even at a worse disadvantage.

Just because counterpicking Meta Knight will gain you no advantage but only an even matchup it doesn't mean you can't counterpick him - cause you can.

Even is the least you should get from counterpicking. You can get that for Meta Knight, so where's the problem?

MK has no bad stages. Everyone has some kind of bad stage, whether it be 20 stages or 2.

Oh, yes he does. While he doesn't suffer major disadvantages in any stage, there are stages where he doesn't gain as many advantages. Which are his worse stages, of course.
Why does he have to get utterly ***** on a stage or have an unwinnable matchup?

 

[BarDulL]

Countering somebody doesnt exactly mean that you are supposed to come out with a advantage. It just means putting YOURSELF it a better position. If you rely that much on a counterpick system then ether this game is shallow or you have little faith in your actual skills.
pick one

top players take as much as they can get with their counter picks. it is up to the opponent to try as best they can to avoid a certain stage/character combination that would screw them over.

i wouldn't say that the game is shallow because of it, mainly because this forces top players to have alts in case a bad match up is coming their way.

 

[Masmasher@]

But everyone know's that Brawl is shallow. Last I checked it was anyway.

Yeah but i really am trying to say that just because its a counter doesnt mean you should be at a advantage. People seem to think that a counter should always mean you are at a advantage.

 

[Cloud9157]

I repeat: Counterpicking is a strategy, not a necessity.
If you counterpick badly, you will suffer the consequences.
As I said: In the worse and worst scenarios, you will be still disadvantaged (though better than before) or you will be in the same disadvantage or even at a worse disadvantage.

Just because counterpicking Meta Knight will gain you no advantage but only an even matchup it doesn't mean you can't counterpick him - cause you can.

Even is the least you should get from counterpicking. You can get that for Meta Knight, so where's the problem?



Oh, yes he does. While he doesn't suffer major disadvantages in any stage, there are stages where he doesn't gain as many advantages. Which are his worse stages, of course.
Why does he have to get utterly ***** on a stage or have an unwinnable matchup?

Ok, let me restate my claim on MK breaking the system. You cannot effectively CP him.

You can put every character at a disadvantage in some way or another. If I am a Falco main and I am facing Marth, I should pull out my second in D3 and CP RC or something along those lines. But I cannot do anything that will put me at an advantage vs MK.


And if that is what you call a "bad stage" for MK, thats a pretty special statement as compared to other characters.

 

[Red Arremer]

Ok, let me restate my claim on MK breaking the system. You cannot effectively CP him.

Yes you can. You can gain an even matchup against Meta Knight by counterpicking. I see absolutely no problem here.
Considering that an even matchup simply means that it's fully skill-based, and your opponent doesn't have to outplay you.

 

[infomon]

(fantastic post)

^^ there we have it. TOs, stop banning or soft-banning planking / edge-grab rules so we can see how these "broken" strategies actually play out at high-level play, so that we can determine if MK (and/or simply these strategies which might be effective for a number of characters) are ban-worthy. Otherwise, we'll always have this dumb debate raging on inconclusively.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Lol, open your eyes. He breaks the CP system, that doesn't warrant a ban?

What do you see in the CP system?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Ok, let me restate my claim on MK breaking the system. You cannot effectively CP him.

You can put every character at a disadvantage in some way or another. If I am a Falco main and I am facing Marth, I should pull out my second in D3 and CP RC or something along those lines. But I cannot do anything that will put me at an advantage vs MK.


And if that is what you call a "bad stage" for MK, thats a pretty special statement as compared to other characters.

Diddy FD, Snake Halberd, GnW FD

 

[swordgard]

I wonder if the SBR is reading this though.



Either way, i really think this poll shouldnt count due to the huge amount of uninformed people.

 

[Zolios]

Never would I think you could counter Meta with FD >_> <_<

Loooool.

Anyway, what're the tally's for the SBR vote? I want to see if MK would be banned or not.

EDIT: Sword, I'm sure after 3 other polls and having all of the information on the frontpage and an on-going argument about this will surely leave people informed before voting, if they aren't ignorant morons.

 

[BarDulL]

Yeah but i really am trying to say that just because its a counter doesnt mean you should be at a advantage. People seem to think that a counter should always mean you are at a advantage.

with all due respect, there is no reason not to put yourself at an advantage using the CP system...unless you can name one that actually makes sense?

 

[BBQTV]

leave MK alone he never did anything to anyone but gimp and have to glides

 

[Zolios]

with all due respect, there is no reason not to put yourself at an advantage using the CP system...unless you can name one that actually makes sense?

What he said. The CP system's only purpose is to give you an advantage. Why would you want to go for a disadvantage? Do you want to lose?

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Diddy FD, Snake Halberd, GnW Norfair

Fixed. I'm pretty sure (as in 99% certain) that taking G&W to FD with MK is suicide.

@Zolios: FD is one of MK's worse stages on campy matchups/matchups with naners.

^^ there we have it. TOs, stop banning or soft-banning planking / edge-grab rules so we can see how these "broken" strategies actually play out at high-level play, so that we can determine if MK (and/or simply these strategies which might be effective for a number of characters) are ban-worthy. Otherwise, we'll always have this dumb debate raging on inconclusively.

I really like this idea.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

I wonder if the SBR is reading this though.



Either way, i really think this poll shouldnt count due to the huge amount of uninformed people.

Both sides have uninformed people. This is only to get the public opinion BTW.

Also, Norfair isn't always legal.

 

[Red Arremer]

with all due respect, there is no reason not to put yourself at an advantage using the CP system...unless you can name one that actually makes sense?

An advantage is favourable, but not necessary.

 

[Exceladon City]

Never would I think you could counter Meta with FD >_> <_<

Loooool.

Anyway, what're the tally's for the SBR vote? I want to see if MK would be banned or not.

EDIT: Sword, I'm sure after 3 other polls and having all of the information on the frontpage and an on-going argument about this will surely leave people informed before voting, if they aren't ignorant morons.

FD is just big enough to give you room to breathe against MK. Campy characters can sorta camp without the worry of the blue ball in the cape being in your face right then and there (even though he's gonna do that regardless). It's arguably his worst stage even though it's still not OMGIHASANADVANTAGEAGAINSTMKHERE bad.

 

[Masmasher@]

with all due respect, there is no reason not to put yourself at an advantage using the CP system...unless you can name one that actually makes sense?

No I agree with you. I'm simply saying take whatever you can get. But if it still leaves you at a disadvantage... then you will just have to deal with it.
Heres a example:
lets say that im fighting a character that has a super that does tremendous damage, also it launches you for extra combo opportunity. If i punch you as you do that super i have countered you. But i am not at a advantage because the super still hit me. Though i am in a better position because i have knocked you away so you cant follow up on the launch opportunity.
Im simply saying that countering someone in a game doesnt always mean you will be at a advantage. Even if you pick the best possible option

 

[POKE40]

Never would I think you could counter Meta with FD >_> <_<

Loooool.

FD is Diddy's best stage.
Diddy can take on MK "evenly" here, of course based on skills.
Diddy just needs avoid getting gimped and control a banana.

Anyway, what're the tally's for the SBR vote? I want to see if MK would be banned or not.

The SBR will vote after this poll is closed, I think.

EDIT: Sword, I'm sure after 3 other polls and having all of the information on the frontpage and an on-going argument about this will surely leave people informed before voting, if they aren't ignorant morons.

Nope.
People will vote based on their personal opinion, despite there being three polls and hard-fought debates.
It is inevitable, that happens in almost every community poll.

 

[Cloud9157]

Diddy FD, Snake Halberd, GnW FD

Lol, no no and no.

 

[mobilisq]

if metaknight does get banned we should at least let m2k keep playing him