Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Exceladon City]

if metaknight does get banned we should at least let m2k keep playing him

That would defeat the purpose of banning him. If we let him main him then we'd have to let every other honest MK main use him as well.

10defeatedpurposes

 

[BBQTV]

Nope.
People will vote based on their personal opinion, despite there being three polls and hard-fought debates.
It is inevitable, that happens in almost every community poll.

yeah your right they dont care about the argument if their here they know who their voting for

 

[swordgard]

Both sides have uninformed people. This is only to get the public opinion BTW.

Also, Norfair isn't always legal.

And we cant accuretaly know which one is made mostly of uninformed people.


And zolios your wrong, every 2 pages we see some non tourney goer who votes saying he doesnt like MK with no valid reason. Or the other way around.


Democracy killed socrates, remember this (dont start arguing with this, it was a joke, though im agaisnt democracy in this poll).

 

[Red Arremer]

Lol, no no and no.

Not sure on the last one, but apparently you're stuck in March 2008.

 

[MarKO X]

reposting cause i dunno if more than one person read it...

So after seeing both sides, arguing, trolling, responding to stuff, and asking a few questions, I think the entire MetaKnight discussion, both pro-ban and anti-ban, is faulty. The faultiness of the discussion comes from the ledge grab rule, which was pretty much created upon the same "scrub-like" terms (according to many anti-banners) of banning MK himself. Instead of seeing if there are ways to beat it, TOs just said, "No planking. Kthx."

Interestingly enough, there is this in the SBR ruleset:

Stalling: The act of deliberately avoiding any and all conflict so that one may make the game unplayable. Running away from an opponent to reach a better position is not stalling, while doing an infinite grab endlessly against a wall is. Any infinite chain grabs must end quickly after 300% has been reached so as to prevent excessive stalling.

So technically, running away from the opponent to get to the ledge, also know as planking, is allowed under the SBR ruleset. The question is whether or not you are capable of doing anything about planking from any character with any character, not just MetaKnight. This is important because, as many people have said, MK is not the only one who can plank. The answer... nobody knows, because you can only grab the ledge 50 times. Even if you were to max it out, it's about 16 times per stock, plus 2 extra grabs (assuming perfect math and stuff, but yeah). Most players/characters don't need 16 grabs per stock if the traditional plank style isn't their strategy.

Now because there is a limit to number of times someone can grab the ledge, one could assume that this has discouraged/weakened planking... but did it really? You have two isolated incidents, one being Plank vs DaPuffster, one being Dojo vs DEHF. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this discussion has seen Plank vs DaPuffster, but only a few select eyes have seen Dojo vs DEHF, which one could assume is on a higher level of play assuming the players involved (no disrespect to Plank or Puff, it's just an assumption). I really wish that Dojo vs DEHF could be seen by the general public, because I think that match could really settle if this new air planking is a legit game breaking strategy or if it just makes the Falco matchup obsolete. But all we know about air planking is:

1) MK says STFU to the 50 ledge grab rule with his 5 jumps, 4 specials, and 2 glides that aid his ability to stay in the air.
2) MK is 2-0 in matches where he air planks, although 2 matches is not a sufficient enough sample size to definitively determine anything.

So I've come to the conclusion that the discussion on banning MK is inconclusive because:
1) The ledge grab rule is not of the SBR ruleset, but everyone seems to use it.
2) Air planking under the ledge grab rule is "soft banned" in a sense, because people are not doing it on a consistent enough basis to see if it is a game breaking strategy.

If theory and potential is not enough to ban MetaKnight, then MetaKnight won't get banned, but the theory and the potential is enough to create the scare... and as long as this "fear" exists without it be truly proven or unproven, the ban MetaKnight discussion may always exist.

discuss.

 

[Zolios]

if metaknight does get banned we should at least let m2k keep playing him

>_>

Let's ban a character, but let people play him!

 

[ShadowLink84]

I pointed out that you BOTH misinterpreted what I posted for something totally different.

Then perhaps you should clarify so that the misinterpretation might be corrected.

You go back and read.

I read and my post still seems relevant. Explain further if its a misinterpretationa dn Iw ill make the correction as needed.

You're trying too hard to look cool on the internet.

I stopped reading here.
Once someone starts speaking int his manner its obvious that its just going to be a flame fest.
If you cannot explain a simple concept and can only whine about misinterpretation his and that, then don't post. it will save me and yourself the time yes? kthxbai

 

[Clai]

When you CP someone with a stage, you are supposed to gain a clear advantage.

Says whom?

Me for one, maybe a few other people that agree with me.

My brain hurts.

with all due respect, there is no reason not to put yourself at an advantage using the CP system...unless you can name one that actually makes sense?

All the counterpick system does is allow you to increase the likelihood that you will win the next match by picking the character and stage you like. It doesn't have to give you the advantage as long as it gives you a reasonable chance of winning.

So after seeing both sides, arguing, trolling, responding to stuff, and asking a few questions, I think the entire MetaKnight discussion, both pro-ban and anti-ban, is faulty. The faultiness of the discussion comes from the ledge grab rule, which was pretty much created upon the same "scrub-like" terms (according to many anti-banners) of banning MK himself. Instead of seeing if there are ways to beat it, TOs just said, "No planking. Kthx."

Interestingly enough, there is this in the SBR ruleset:


So technically, running away from the opponent to get to the ledge, also know as ledge planking, is allowed under the SBR ruleset. The question is whether or not you are capable of doing anything about planking from any character with any character, not just MetaKnight.

If you're running towards the ledge and you have no tactical reason for doing so (you can't use the position advantage argument if your opponent is nowhere near you), you are stalling and that's against the rules. Absuing the ledge is okay if you're using it to escape a bad situation (such as your opponent pressuring you into a corner or you just recovered from getting hit off the stage).

Now because there is a limit to number of times someone can grab the ledge, one could assume that this has discouraged/weakened planking... but did it really? You have two isolated incidents, one being Plank vs DaPuffster, one being Dojo vs DEHF. I'm pretty sure that everyone in this discussion has seen Plank vs DaPuffster, but only a few select eyes have seen Dojo vs DEHF, which one could assume is on a higher level of play assuming the players involved (no disrespect to Plank or Puff, it's just an assumption). I really wish that Dojo vs DEHF could be seen by the general public, because I think that match could really settle if this new air planking is a legit game breaking strategy or if it just makes the Falco matchup obsolete. But all we know about air planking is:

1) MK says STFU to the 50 ledge grab rule with his 5 jumps, 4 specials, and 2 glides that aid his ability to stay in the air.
2) MK is 2-0 in matches where he air planks, although 2 matches is not a sufficient enough sample size to definitively determine anything.

I really want to see Dojo vs. DEHF too. The main question to ask in terms of how good air planking is is: Can other characters pressure and even overcome Metaknight when he's in the air? I would have thought Falco would do a good a good job pressuring MK in the air with his insanely high jump, lazers, and good aerials in n-air and u-air. Maybe players aren't used to this extreme defensive play, which is why they lose at first, but as long as the MK player isn't stalling for no purpose other than stalling, other players will find ways to combat air planking and beat it. Just because a new strategy is taking the metagame by storm, doesn't mean the strategy is broken.

So I've come to the conclusion that the discussion on banning MK is inconclusive because:
1) The ledge grab rule is not of the SBR ruleset, but everyone seems to use it.
2) Air planking under the ledge grab rule is "soft banned" in a sense, because people are not doing it on a consistent enough basis to see if it is a game breaking strategy.

Your terms are confusing me. Anyhows, the ledge rule isn't necessary because the activities that would get someone to grab the ledge that many times would likely be illegal under the stalling rule anyway. Air planking is just using aerials defensively in the air, that can be beaten with strategy, even if it takes time to do so.

If theory and potential is not enough to ban MetaKnight, then MetaKnight won't get banned, but the theory and the potential is enough to create the scare... and as long as this "fear" exists without it be truly proven or unproven, the ban MetaKnight discussion may always exist.

discuss.

Discussions may always exist, but they will never amount to anything until Metaknight starts overcentralizing the metagame where high-level play consists of 'play MK or lose.'

 

[BBQTV]

all brawl characters are equal but some brawl characters are more equal then others does anyone get the reference cough animal farm cough

 

[Cloud9157]

Not sure on the last one, but apparently you're stuck in March 2008.

Does it give you the advantage people are looking for in a CP'd stage? No, it really doesn't. Diddy/MK at FD is even at best.

Oh yeah, MK can always ban those stages if he has to, so your point is moot.

Clai, I'm confused as to how your brain hurts... Elaborate maybe?

 

[BarDulL]

An advantage is favourable, but not necessary.

elaborate, please.

it is foolish to not take every possible advantage you can get, especially after losing a match. it doesn't make any sense not to if you're playing to win.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

Fixed. I'm pretty sure (as in 99% certain) that taking G&W to FD with MK is suicide.

@Zolios: FD is one of MK's worse stages on campy matchups/matchups with naners.



I really like this idea.

No, its a good stage for GnW vs MK, ask any top MK i've ever played, they always ban it. Last time it wasnt banned I 2 stocked M2K there with GnW.

 

[POKE40]

all brawl characters are equal but some brawl characters are more equal then others does anyone get the reference cough animal farm cough

Lol. I love Animal Farm.

 

[BarDulL]

No, its a good stage for GnW vs MK, ask any top MK i've ever played, they always ban it. Last time it wasnt banned I 2 stocked M2K there with GnW.

i ban FD. now what?

 

[Vex Kasrani]

i ban FD. now what?

Snake on Halberd, cwutididthar.

 

[Red Arremer]

elaborate, please.

it is foolish to not take every possible advantage you can get, especially after losing a match. it doesn't make any sense not to if you're playing to win.

I repeat:
An advantage is favourable but not necessary.
If your best situation is being even, then this is all you need in order to win.

Unless you need a character advantage in order to win, because then obviously your skill is not equal or better than this of the other player.

 

[Cloud9157]

Snake on Halberd, cwutididthar.

MK on RC, get ***** Snake.

 

[Vex Kasrani]

MK on RC, get ***** Snake.

except Snake does well vs MK on RC, get ***** whoever you are.

 

[Clai]

Clai, I'm confused as to how your brain hurts... Elaborate maybe?

See my post above regarding counterpicking. The purpose of counterpicking is not to gain the clear advantage; the purpose of counterpicking is to let you pick the character/stage you feel will increase your chances of winning the most. Having the advantage because of this is not required when you have a reasonable chance of winning. It is just a luxury.

No ruleset that takes competitive fighting seriously has ever said that you are required to have the advantage by counterpicking, so Spadefox responding to your statement by saying "says who?" was legit. The fact that you said "says me!" as your response is making me continue to hate society, especially those filled with idiots who thinks that 'says me!' is going to have any weight in a discussion.

Counterpicking does not have to give you the advantage, as long as it provides you with a reasonable chance of winning.

*EDIT*

elaborate, please.

it is foolish to not take every possible advantage you can get, especially after losing a match. it doesn't make any sense not to if you're playing to win.

You're right in saying that counterpicking allows you to take every possible advantage to raise your chances of winning as much as they can. Nowhere, though, does it say counterpicking has to let you have a greater chance of winning than your opponent based on characters/stages. It doesn't matter if the chances of winning are 51% or 49%, as long as the odds are reasonable.

 

[BBQTV]

Lol. I love Animal Farm.

me to hehehe talking about animal farm here

 

[etecoon]

MK on RC, get ***** Snake.

Snake isn't that bad on RC, personally I'd rather take MK there than BF.

 

[adumbrodeus]

all brawl characters are equal but some brawl characters are more equal then others does anyone get the reference cough animal farm cough

Lol, would work a lot better on the "tires dun exits" crowd.

Does it give you the advantage people are looking for in a CP'd stage? No, it really doesn't. Diddy/MK at FD is even at best.

A match-up goes from a disadvantage to even... how's that not a good use of a counter-pick again?

Clai, I'm confused as to how your brain hurts... Elaborate maybe?

"Who says..." points should not be responded to with "me for one", we know you say it. The point is that you need some credibility, and that means name-dropping.

Technically it's an ad hominem, but it's usually to bring attention to an already faulty argument, you just failed epically.

 

[SnowballBob33]

How bout we set up a MK tax. Any time someone wants to use MK in a tourney match, they must pay the opponent a dollar.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Does it give you the advantage people are looking for in a CP'd stage? No, it really doesn't. Diddy/MK at FD is even at best.

Oh yeah, MK can always ban those stages if he has to, so your point is moot.

Clai, I'm confused as to how your brain hurts... Elaborate maybe?

Hold up, hold up...

If you think of the counterpicking system that way, then it's not mandatory. Counterpicking is supposed to cushion your fall when you go down a cliff, not make it so you don't splat on the ground, dead.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

How bout we set up a MK tax. Any time someone wants to use MK in a tourney match, they must pay the opponent a dollar.

I like that rule, it could create a much better voting discussion.

I better not double post.

Edit: c'mon ppl. -_-

 

[Anthonysmash]

How bout we set up a MK tax. Any time someone wants to use MK in a tourney match, they must pay the opponent a dollar.

AGREE! and apparently i need atleast 10 characters in my message (characters as in letters)

 

[BBQTV]

How bout we set up a MK tax. Any time someone wants to use MK in a tourney match, they must pay the opponent a dollar.

I think you just solved the problem you deserve a prize

 

[Cloud9157]

Lol, would work a lot better on the "tires dun exits" crowd.



A match-up goes from a disadvantage to even... how's that not a good use of a counter-pick again?




"Who says..." points should not be responded to with "me for one", we know you say it. The point is that you need some credibility, and that means name-dropping.

Technically it's an ad hominem, but it's usually to bring attention to an already faulty argument, you just failed epically.

I love how you chew me out when he also asked "says whom?" Obviously me, or he wouldn't have felt the need to ask that. No need to troll me.

 

[AfroQT]

Ahhhhhhhhh H

 

[Cloud9157]

except Snake does well vs MK on RC, get ***** whoever you are.

Let's hear why then.

 

[Red Arremer]

I love how you chew me out when he also asked "says whom?" Obviously me, or he wouldn't have felt the need to ask that. No need to troll me.

I asked that not in order to determine that you said that.
I made that post because you made this absolute statement as it were a written rule that any Counterpick-system MUST give you an advantage (!) over your opponent instead of you (the player) being able to iron out your disadvantages. And even is the absence of any disadvantage - for either player.

 

[Clai]

I love how you chew me out when he also asked "says whom?" Obviously me, or he wouldn't have felt the need to ask that. No need to troll me.

No ruleset that takes competitive fighting seriously has ever said that you are required to have the advantage by counterpicking, so Spadefox responding to your statement by saying "says who?" was legit. The fact that you said "says me!" as your response is making me continue to hate society, especially those filled with idiots who thinks that 'says me!' is going to have any weight in a discussion.

Reading other people's responses when you ask them questions is your friend. He said 'says whom?" because counterpicking always having to give you the advantage has never been quoted as truth. It is just the wishful minds of people who don't know how the counterpicking system actually works.

I am not trolling you. I am saying that you need to troll less.

 

[Cloud9157]

I asked that not in order to determine that you said that.
I made that post because you made this absolute statement as it were a written rule that any Counterpick-system MUST give you an advantage (!) over your opponent instead of you (the player) being able to iron out your disadvantages. And even is the absence of any disadvantage - for either player.

Sorry you misunderstood me. I do not think it it a written rule, rather that it is practiced more commonly than just to give yourself an even matchup.

Personally, I don't know what the hell you're all smoking, but when there is money on the line, and I'm down 1-0 against a D3, bet your *** I'm CP'ing Falco at JJs. Instead of just giving me an even matchup, I'll take the advantage, since I have something to lose. I won't mention any names, but when they refused to CP out of "honor" or "those stages are gay" that possibly lost them money.

While you can claim to be righteous from having honor, I'll say "Ok" and walk away with the money from the tournament.

Wasn't referring to you Clai. To the person who I quoted. And go back and read what I typed while you're here. I said: "Me for one, and a few other people I'm sure."

 

[Masmasher@]

How bout we set up a MK tax. Any time someone wants to use MK in a tourney match, they must pay the opponent a dollar.

LMFAO
man i almost choked on my wendys thanks to reading this

 

[Red Arremer]

Personally, I don't know what the hell you're all smoking, but when there is money on the line, and I'm down 1-0 against a D3, bet your *** I'm CP'ing Falco at JJs. Instead of just giving me an even matchup, I'll take the advantage, since I have something to lose.

What if you can't play Falco? What if you can only play a character that goes even with Dedede?

I repeat:
An advantage is FAVOURABLE but NOT NECESSARY.

 

[BBQTV]

ok when fighting MK pick bowser spadefox knows why.

 

[Clai]

Sorry you misunderstood me. I do not think it it a written rule, rather that it is practiced more commonly than just to give yourself an even matchup.

Personally, I don't know what the hell you're all smoking, but when there is money on the line, and I'm down 1-0 against a D3, bet your *** I'm CP'ing Falco at JJs. Instead of just giving me an even matchup, I'll take the advantage, since I have something to lose.

So what do you do when you're down 1-0 against a MK? Do you whine and ***** about how you don't have an advantage anywhere and cry about how you're going to lose simply because of that, or are you going to CP the character you want at the stage you want and give yourself the best chance of winning, even if you aren't at an advantage?

Answer carefully now, lest you contradict yourself.

As for the part you edited again, I didn't quote the whole thing because the emphasis was still "I said it!" The "and other people, too" is only a minor part of the sentence.

And curse you SpadeFox for responding to same thing earlier than I am...

 

[MarKO X]

If you're running towards the ledge and you have no tactical reason for doing so (you can't use the position advantage argument if your opponent is nowhere near you), you are stalling and that's against the rules. Absuing the ledge is okay if you're using it to escape a bad situation (such as your opponent pressuring you into a corner or you just recovered from getting hit off the stage).

The opponent being nowhere near you does not mean you are neutral, especially if your opponent has a projectile... does it?

I really want to see Dojo vs. DEHF too. The main question to ask in terms of how good air planking is is: Can other characters pressure and even overcome Metaknight when he's in the air? I would have thought Falco would do a good a good job pressuring MK in the air with his insanely high jump, lazers, and good aerials in n-air and u-air. Maybe players aren't used to this extreme defensive play, which is why they lose at first, but as long as the MK player isn't stalling for no purpose other than stalling, other players will find ways to combat air planking and beat it. Just because a new strategy is taking the metagame by storm, doesn't mean the strategy is broken.

A new strategy means just that: it's new. But if it's not being used (there are only two extreme cases of "air planking" to my knowledge), we don't know if it's broken or not, and that's why this discussion is inconclusive. Air planking is not a heavily used technique and/or is looked down upon because it makes the game "gay." Fact of the matter is, if air planking is broken (which it may or may not be), then MK is broken, whether the person decides to use it or not.

Your terms are confusing me. Anyhows, the ledge rule isn't necessary because the activities that would get someone to grab the ledge that many times would likely be illegal under the stalling rule anyway. Air planking is just using aerials defensively in the air, that can be beaten with strategy, even if it takes time to do so.

Ledge rule may not be necessary, just like the counterpick system, but it is a part of many tournaments rules. Air planking may be using aerials defensively in the air, but remember that MK has some quick, long ranged aerials....

Discussions may always exist, but they will never amount to anything until Metaknight starts overcentralizing the metagame where high-level play consists of 'play MK or lose.'

The problem is that if MKs aren't using a strategy that is broken even though they are capable of it, it doesn't mean that MK isn't broken. Of course, it is something that would have to be further dealt with before it could be considered broken, but if it's only popping up sporadically to win random matches, then we'll never truly know.

 

[BarDulL]

I repeat:
An advantage is favourable but not necessary.
If your best situation is being even, then this is all you need in order to win.

Unless you need a character advantage in order to win, because then obviously your skill is not equal or better than this of the other player.

...i'm still lost on how to respond to this...but, as i said before, putting yourself at the best possible advantage is what a smart player would do...however, there isn't a character/stage combination out there that truly beats MK, let alone puts the match up on an even ground.

some players think snake/halberd and diddy kong/final puts the match up at 50:50, but this is only 1 match...and with dave's stupid rule, you can't play that stage more than once during that set. an MK player also has the ability to ban either one of those stages to avoid the match up...

 

[Clai]

The opponent being nowhere near you does not mean you are neutral, especially if your opponent has a projectile... does it?

Metaknight can powershield/jump over/tornado through (for some projectiles) just fine. A couple of percentage points, especially when your opponent is too far away from you to actually follow up those projectiles with attacks that actually mean something, does not constitute a 'disadvantaged situation."

A new strategy means just that: it's new. But if it's not being used (there are only two extreme cases of "air planking" to my knowledge), we don't know if it's broken or not, and that's why this discussion is inconclusive. Air planking is not a heavily used technique and/or is looked down upon because it makes the game "gay." Fact of the matter is, if air planking is broken (which it may or may not be), then MK is broken, whether the person decides to use it or not.

We have to prove that the new strategy is broken before we could say anything about banning the strategy/character. You can'ttalk about banning it before that point, though.

Ledge rule may not be necessary, just like the counterpick system, but it is a part of many tournaments rules. Air planking may be using aerials defensively in the air, but remember that MK has some quick, long ranged aerials....

Actually the counterpick system has been part of competitive fighters for years now.

The problem is that if MKs aren't using a strategy that is broken even though they are capable of it, it doesn't mean that MK isn't broken. Of course, it is something that would have to be further dealt with before it could be considered broken, but if it's only popping up sporadically to win random matches, then we'll never truly know.

We don't know if the strategy is capable of breaking the game or not until people actually attempt to break the game with it. Who will truly know, indeed.