Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[mountain_tiger]

I always thought that MK vs Diddy was 55:45 MK's favour unless they're on Final Destination, where it becomes 50:50.

And I'm sure that Melee Fox has one or two disadvatageous matchups.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Good read spadefox, but diddy v MK is not even, if MK air planks it can be 3-7 or worse... just look this match http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fbmu8fGcWaw
And that's not banned.
I'm not for the ban anyways.

I have to say, that's probably the first Brawl match I've ever watched that was literally painful to watch. Thank God people don't play like this in high levels of play.

Anyways, I'm going to bed... If anyone responds to my post, simply leave me a PM or a profile message so I can get back to it when I wake up. (Yes, I'm nocturnal... what of it?)

 

[superyoshi888]

I have another question here. Is this poll only in regards to his status in the US?

 

[POKE40]

^^^^

Anti-ban stereo-typical response: yes
Pro-ban stereo-typical response: no. We'll take the ban worldwide son.

Troll: lol n00b. You just say that bc u suck.

I always thought that MK vs Diddy was 55:45 MK's favour unless they're on Final Destination, where it becomes 50:50.

And I'm sure that Melee Fox has one or two disadvatageous matchups.

Melee Fox's disadvantages:
Mango and Ken

Lol

 

[Blazin!]

Stupidest thing i've ever heard, wheel of fish.

 

[Red Arremer]

10. So, in other words, everybody has to have a counterpick character just for Metaknight? Basically, you HAVE to play as certain characters in order to even survive against Metaknight?

Yes. Just like you have to pick or counterpick a character just for Snake, Wario, Falco, Diddy, Dedede, etc.
If your character can't deal with Snake, then you'll have to play a character who has less trouble against Snake.
If your character can't deal with Wario, then you'll have to play a character who has less trouble against Wario.
etc.

That's not a trait that specifically is owned by Meta Knight.

Also, I knew it. <_<

I have another question here. Is this poll only in regards to his status in the US?

Most likely, yes. Europe almost completely opposes the ban because Meta Knight is absolutely no problem over here.
Japan doesn't use the SBR ruleset, so they won't be affected.

 

[Blatt Blvd]

melee fox has 4, maybe 5 even matchups.

*marth(even or in marth's slight favor on most neutrals)
*shiek(slight advantage for fox 55/45 or less)
*falco(fox usually has the disadvantage 45-40/55-60, stage plays an important role in this matchup)
*samus(def 50/50)

people say peach and jiggs get wrecked by fox, but the people who really believe that are the peach players and shiek players(due mostly because they can't stand the fact that a character can go even with theirs).

(i say those matchups are pretty close too)

fox in melee is prolly just as good or better as MK in brawl

 

[xDD-Master]

Spadefox, the problem is: You can play MK alone, without the need of any other character. If you dont main MK, you will find yourself sometimes in a disadvantaged position and you need a second character. It's OK if you need a second or maybe a third character OR if you will fight nevertheless if you are in a disadventaged position or not. But with MK, you dont have to worry anything like that

It would be OK, as long as the only characters in the game would be MK / Snake / Wario / Falco & Diddy cause they are mostly all 50:50 against each other, but it isnt like that.

 

[Red Arremer]

So, Meta Knight is bannable because their players don't need a secondary? WTF?

 

[etecoon]

snake, wario, and maybe marth(he would need a secondary for MK but...who you gonna pick for that? lol) don't need secondaries either, and several others like diddy, lucario, and pikachu could arguably do it alone. then a few like IC's and falco only really need to worry about one or two matchups...MK is not the only character that can solo in this game, at the very least two others can, and another 5 potentially could or are close to it

 

[gm jack]

So, Meta Knight is bannable because their players don't need a secondary? WTF?

+1

As far as I know, Wario's only bad match up is Marth, and that is far from un-winnable. Don't really need a secondary.

 

[Aurasmash14]

so long as you your char doesnt have a **** matchup, you can go it alone.

 

[mountain_tiger]

so long as you your char doesnt have a **** matchup, you can go it alone.

Define '**** matchup'. Some say that 40:60 and better is winnable, others say 35:65 and better, whereas others say 30:70 and better are winnable. At what point is it considered ****? Because Peach doesn't have any matchups worse than 40:60, but she has them against a good deal of the top tiers. Could she in theory go it alone?

 

[Red Arremer]

30:70 is hardly winnable.

 

[etecoon]

personally 65:35 is the "not worth trying if your opponent is any good" point for me, 40:60 is totally doable IMO.

 

[POKE40]

Define '**** matchup'. Some say that 40:60 and better is winnable, others say 35:65 and better, whereas others say 30:70 and better are winnable. At what point is it considered ****? Because Peach doesn't have any matchups worse than 40:60, but she has them against a good deal of the top tiers. Could she in theory go it alone?

**** matchup:

when you pitch IC vs Ganon on FD.
That is a **** matchup.


I agree that 40:60 is still winnable.
Statistically speaking, you still have a chance for win.

 

[xDD-Master]

So, Meta Knight is bannable because their players don't need a secondary? WTF?

No, not at all.

But just an example: You main MK and I main ROB.

We will fight each other and I decide to use Wario because he is my best character of the one who has an even Match-Up vs. MK.

BUT you MAIN MK and I SECOND Wario. So I will still be most likely in disadvantaged position due to my lack of experience with that character.

Yeah it IS my lack of skill with that character, thats true, but isnt it a bit unfair that I have to use a secondary and MK never ?

Its like your oppenant has a gun and you a sword. Next to you is a gun, but will get at least one bullit hit until you can grab it to make it an even situation. (LOL Funny comparison)

Just face it: For MK mains the world (Smashworld) is so much easier than for all the others.

I dont say that MK is banworthy just because of that, but it is a problem you cant just disregard and it is ONE of MANY problems MK brings with him. I still dont be on any side. I'm not Pro-Ban and I'm not Anti-Ban at all. MK is the best character by far, he is one of the easier and he has many strenghts, yeah just like every games best character...

Maybe you dont see it, but if you think of that this is already the 4th thread about the MK Ban Topic, then you must be stupid if you dont see how much of a problem MK is for OUR COMMUNITY and it is already too late. If you ban MK - Sorry for all the MK Mainers. If you dont ban him - Sorry for all the MK Haters. It doesnt matter what the SBR decides to do, someone will not be happy with the decision (1/2 of the community).

Temp ban sounds good in the first thought, but in another way it is stupida as hell. For sure characters could develop while MK would stand still. But when the time comes and MK is re-allowed, nobody will know how to fight him and then they will scream for a ban more than ever. The only thing that could happen, that there will be found a new technique/glitch/at/whatever which makes more characters better but not MK (Like Dacus).

A Handicap is much more stupid lol

 

[Red Arremer]

but isnt it a bit unfair that I have to use a secondary and MK never ?

No. It's absolutely not unfair.

 

[UberMario]

personally 65:35 is the "not worth trying if your opponent is any good" point for me, 40:60 is totally doable IMO.

Ratios aren't the deciding factor, and definitely are not a reason to give up at the start.

 

[xDD-Master]

No. It's absolutely not unfair.

Well, that's your opinion, but not the opinion of others. Just like you find it funny (Or a challenge) to fight a planking/airstalling MK and others not. Just like your opinion is that being gay is good, and others do not see it as you.

 

[infomon]

Optimum momentum canceling is obtained by fast falling during a short duration aerial while in hitstun, and then jumping towards a corner of the blast zone (If you're launched horizontally) to redirect the rest of your momentum along as long a path as you can. If you've got a momentum stopper like G&W, you can use that after the fast falled aerial instead of jumping.

There are a bunch of exceptions, and a number of characters have specials that are (generally) better than their jumps for counteracting knockback, even if they don't have a full braking effect à-la G&W. Off the top of my head I'm thinking of G&W, DK, Yoshi, Wario, Diddy, Pikachu, Sonic, Squirtle, and I'm sure I'm forgetting people.

Because Meta Knight not only has the shortest duration aerial in the game (upair) to get him out of hitstun as quickly as is possible, but also has multiple jumps (something few characters have) to help redirect his momentum even further upwards than if he had only one jump, Meta Knight has the best momentum canceling in the game (when you exclude special attack momentum cancels such as bucket braking and DK's Upb).

lol no. MK's multiple jumps are a bad option, since each jump will boost him extra high away from the stage when used during knockback, and his horizontal airspeed is so bad that for each vertical boost he barely counteracts much horizontal knockback at all. MK's optimal option is often, instead, FF Uair > jump+glide. But even then there's a long time where the glide is fighting against knockback, he's still travelling away from the stage. I point this out at 4:16 here:
http://ca.youtube.com/watch?v=vx3ixgO_i8o

For this reason, Meta Knight's survivability is on par with characters a fairly good amount heavier than himself. To get a small idea of what difference that is... I personally, when I use MK against a character with about average kill power, I usually live to around an average of about (guesstimating, obviously) 160% every stock (I've got great DI), as opposed to about 180-190% with Snake, and 130-140% with Olimar. (That's assuming I miss a whistle or something and rely on momentum canceling to help me out. I'll live much longer with good whistle use, obviously.)

Show me some high-level matches where MK is surviving because of his superb momentum-cancelling. I think I've seen two? ever? and I'm always paying attention to this sort of thing No, I think MK is surviving so much because you're not landing kill moves.

If MK airplanks it can be horrible. Plz read all.
Neways there are no top diddy players playing an airplanker MK (plank) so idk.

Yeah... if no MK's are airplanking, then we can't know if it's broken or not, because we haven't had time to study and develop ways to beat it. People need to stop being scrubs and abuse these broken tactics more so that we can actually determine what (if anything) needs to be banned. And that includes "broken" stages like Norfair, Luigi's Mansion, etc. for which there does not exist solid evidence for a ban. (seriously just give me some vids where the opponent isn't making dumb mistakes!)

 

[Red Arremer]

Well, that's your Opinion, but not the opinion of others. Just like you find it funny (Or a challenge) to fight a planking/airstalling MK and others not. Just like your opinion is that being gay is good, and others do not find that.

Considering there are other characters that can go without a secondary (pretty much the whole S Tier and a few other characters here and there from A to C Tier), it's absolutely not unfair.

Fun also is not an argument. If it was me, I'd want Marth banned, because I loathe fighting Marth. Do I use this as an argument speaking for a ban? No, because I see that this is simply stupid.

 

[swordgard]

Well, that's your opinion, but not the opinion of others. Just like you find it funny (Or a challenge) to fight a planking/airstalling MK and others not. Just like your opinion is that being gay is good, and others do not see it as you.

Is it fair that D3 and marth have so many **** matchups?


I mean, MK may not have to CP, but he doesnt **** nearly as much of the cast as these 2 do. Its just choosing what you would rather have.


A) **** 90% of the chars, go even with 5% and have to cp 5%

B) **** 70% of the cast, go near even with 20%, go even with 10%.


Fictional numbers were used to show my point >.<

 

[Azuzu]

Fun also is not an argument.

How can you even say this? This is a gaming community, we're all here to have fun on some level. How many people would go to tournaments if they knew they wouldn't have fun? I'll answer that, the 1% of players that win money, but then, there wouldn't be money in the pot either would there? Not going to argue whether or not mk makes things "unfun" for enough people to warrant a ban, but saying something like that makes me think you've lost sight of the bigger picture.

 

[xDD-Master]

Considering there are other characters that can go without a secondary (pretty much the whole S Tier and a few other characters here and there from A to C Tier), it's absolutely not unfair.

I didnt say anything against that. But in your long post you said following:

Now, the thing is following: A favourable position does not mean an advantage only. There is no need to put yourself into an advantage, because in order to determine skill, an even position is all you need. An advantage over your opponent is favourable, but not necessary in order to determine the skill between you and your opponent.

!!! an even position is all you need !!!

Yeah - An even. You will only get an even position every time if you main MK... that was my point. (I answered in regard of your post and what you said, not in general)

You still can do it with one character. You can win 45:55 or 40:60 disadvantaged Match-Up. Yeah you can. But you will not find yourself every time in an even position (Which is all you need, just like you said)

 

[Strong Badam]

How can you even say this? This is a gaming community, we're all here to have fun on some level. How many people would go to tournaments if they knew they wouldn't have fun? I'll answer that, the 1% of players that win money, but then, there wouldn't be money in the pot either would there? Not going to argue whether or not mk makes things "unfun" for enough people to warrant a ban, but saying something like that makes me think you've lost sight of the bigger picture.

protip: if you want to have fun, don't play competitive brawl.

 

[xDD-Master]

protip: if you want to have fun, don't play competitive brawl.

Isn't it fun that I have more fun in competetive brawl than in FFAs ?

Just like Spadefox I have fun in the challenge of fighting a better or a hard oppenant. That counts for Planking MKs, Air Camping Warios or going-for-the-grab-all-the-day DDDs. Yeah, it sometimes is very annoying if I'm DDD and the other player (MK) spams Tornado. But as annoying as it is, it is as well fun to find a strategy against it and when it works - it works and I'm happy

 

[Azuzu]

protip: if you want to have fun, don't play competitive brawl.

Perhaps you could direct me to a pro that does not enjoy playing the game, and just plays for money then.

protip: There's many better ways to make money in life, if that's all you're after. Making money while having fun though, is a bit harder to come by.

 

[swordgard]

Fun is not a valid argument because its subjective.


Maybe some people enjoy fighting MKs?

 

[bobson]

Perhaps you could direct me to a pro that does not enjoy playing the game, and just plays for money then.

Pretty much any pro who also plays Melee does this.

 

[Sosuke]

Perhaps you could direct me to a pro that does not enjoy playing the game, and just plays for money then.

:o

Let me get a list brb

 

[Strong Badam]

Perhaps you could direct me to a pro that does not enjoy playing the game, and just plays for money then.

lmfao
that's a knee slapper.

and xDD-Master, I was talking Brawl in general. There are like 1000 million competitive fighters out there that are a whole lot more fun and interesting (to me, anyway, obligatory IMO here) than Brawl, including Melee.

 

[Azuzu]

Fun is not a valid argument because its subjective.


Maybe some people enjoy fighting MKs?

That's why this is a difficult decision. Don't leave out the fact that some people enjoy PLAYING metaknight. Look, I don't mean to say "BAN HIM HE'S NO FUN" but, saying it doesn't count for anything is shortsighted -- if people aren't having fun, they will leave the game, and that's it.

 

[mountain_tiger]

Pretty much any pro who also plays Melee does this.

Some of them? Most likely. All of them? I highly doubt that.

 

[swordgard]

lmfao
that's a knee slapper.

and xDD-Master, I was talking Brawl in general. There are like 1000 million competitive fighters out there that are a whole lot more fun and interesting (to me, anyway, obligatory IMO here) than Brawl, including Melee.

Fun is subjective, stop doing such logical fallacies.

 

[Red Arremer]

How can you even say this? This is a gaming community, we're all here to have fun on some level. How many people would go to tournaments if they knew they wouldn't have fun? I'll answer that, the 1% of players that win money, but then, there wouldn't be money in the pot either would there? Not going to argue whether or not mk makes things "unfun" for enough people to warrant a ban, but saying something like that makes me think you've lost sight of the bigger picture.

Uhm, no.
Look, if I said in any other competitive community - not only fighting games - "I don't have fun if XY happens, ban it please", then I'm getting the middlefinger or laughed at and am told to GTFO if I don't want to play by the rules and settings this competitive community has established.
Whining about something making a game "less fun" in tournaments is only able to be done in the Brawl community, seriously. I've never seen something like that happen before, and I play video games competitively since 9 years.

I don't have fun playing against Marth. Do I call for a ban because of that? No. It's a silly argument, because "fun" is subjective, not everyone has the same view of what's being fun. I doubt that only 1% of the community has fun at Brawl, otherwise we wouldn't have such a big community and tournaments with well over 200 attendees.

Yeah - An even. You will only get an even position every time if you main MK... that was my point. (I answered in regard of your post and what you said, not in general)

So what? That's because he's the best character in the game. Big deal. (wow, I already sound like RDK).

You still can do it with one character. You can win 45:55 or 40:60 disadvantaged Match-Up. Yeah you can. But you will not find yourself every time in an even position (Which is all you need, just like you said)

This statement about even positions has been merely related to the counterpicking system, not about characters and their viability. Please don't put words into my mouth.
Counterpicking is an option giving you the chance to amend your chances into your favour.

Wario, Marth, Snake, Lucario - all of these characters can go completely alone, without any secondary. Yes, they might be in a disadvantageous matchup during a tournament. But you know what's unfair? Nitpicking that Meta Knight has all these traits of a Top Tier character and saying that because of that he's bannable.
Because he isn't.

I think I've repeated myself like 9001 times in this thread already:
If a character does good against good characters, this character is good.
If a character does bad against good characters, this character is bad.

Blowing Meta Knight out of proportion because you can counterpick him to have an even matchup, and not be in a direct advantage - this is unfair.
It's also unfair that people are claiming wrong things about Meta Knight, such as that the Ledgegrab Rule has been established ONLY because of him.

That's what I call unfair.

 

[Azuzu]

Fun is subjective, stop doing such logical fallacies.

Unfortunately 90% of everything in this thread is subjective. "Broken" comes to mind. If it was clear definitive method to see if he was broken, this would be pretty easy; there would be no debate. It's not though, there's a small amount of numerical evidence which is concrete as we can get. Then there's a TON of anecdotal/situational evidence which is all subjective, for both sides of the argument.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Only really disadvantageous on FD. Fox can counterpick.

Fox has no universal bad match-ups in Melee.

...

I am sorry what?
Final Destination is the stage where he does worst against Math? Are you kidding? On a stage where he has alot of room to take advantage of his mobility and can more easily avoid Marth's sword, FD, is somehow, a worse stage than YI, Kirby's, brinstar or BF?

Sure Marth can CG you on FD, but then on smaller stages you have his massive range to dea with, and that makes t extremely hard to get in.

 

[Sosuke]

Not to mention Yoshi's Island exists.

 

[Overswarm]

...

I am sorry what?
Final Destination is the stage where he does worst against Math? Are you kidding? On a stage where he has alot of room to take advantage of his mobility and can more easily avoid Marth's sword, FD, is somehow, a worse stage than YI, Kirby's, brinstar or BF?

I find that,extremely, hard to believe.Simply because it makes NO sense.

Grab.

GG Fox.