Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[ShadowLink84]

Grab.

GG Fox.

I edited, yeah Fox gets CG'ed on FD, but on smaller stages like YI or BF or FoD, his range becomes more problematic because you just can't get around it as easily as you wold on FD.

 

[Masmasher@]

...

I am sorry what?
Final Destination is the stage where he does worst against Math? Are you kidding? On a stage where he has alot of room to take advantage of his mobility and can more easily avoid Marth's sword, FD, is somehow, a worse stage than YI, Kirby's, brinstar or BF?

I find that,extremely, hard to believe.Simply because it makes NO sense.

Chaingrabs....
With no platforms to help him marth easily builds damge then gimps him.
point blank

 

[ShadowLink84]

??? did everyon quote me at the same time? XD
Mainly since i amended my post

 

[Masmasher@]

??? did everyon quote me at the same time? XD
Mainly since i amended my post

Yeah i did. My bad lol

 

[Serris]

Can we move off the topic of match-ups in Melee and back onto the topic of Meta Knight in Brawl, please?

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

protip: if you want to have fun, don't play competitive brawl.

Wow, more blasphemy. All 3 Smashes are fun in both ways.

 

[Palpi]

protip: if you want to have fun, don't play competitive brawl.

Correction. If you want to have fun, dont play fox in competitive brawl.

Sorry spadefox! xD

 

[roroverma]

Darnit, how many real PROS even use Meta Knight?

I want Meta Knight banned as much as the next guy (I'm not taking that spam) , but such an extended debate over the results of him being banned or not are quite illogical seeing as not everybody is here to read if the most broken character in Brawl is banned or not.

Yes, he's annoying, yes, we all hate his B (Sorry, I don't know anything else, I go for casual brawl, I haven't learned Competitive to the best of my knowledge), we're not getting to a conclusion. I've been watching such arguments going on for over a year, and frankly, it's annoying for everybody, probably even the person who made this topic.

 

[Red Arremer]

Correction. If you want to have fun, dont play fox in competitive brawl.

Sorry spadefox! xD

I only play Fox in tournaments if I'm sure of myself. =P

 

[Alus]

Can we move off the topic of match-ups in Melee and back onto the topic of Meta Knight in Brawl, please?

Lol Where is there a topic on metaknight ANYwhere?

Wow, more blasphemy. All 3 Smashes are fun in both ways.

This made no sense whatsoever im sorry...

XD

 

[superyoshi888]

Most likely, yes. Europe almost completely opposes the ban because Meta Knight is absolutely no problem over here.
Japan doesn't use the SBR ruleset, so they won't be affected

Ah, I see. Well then, banning him would cause the competitive communities of different countries to split even further then. For example, would we really want to turn away many European/Japanese players if we were to host another tournament like Genesis because we banned Meta Knight? If we choose to allow him for the one tournament, that means American players are screwed because they wouldn't practice the match up. Same goes for an American brawler in an European/Japanese tournament....because they haven't practiced the match up, they basically are in trouble if they come across a Meta Knight.

This is one of the main reasons I'm against the ban.

 

[PrinceRamen]

Wow, more blasphemy. All 3 Smashes are fun in both ways.

This made no sense whatsoever im sorry...

XD

lol, I think he means it's fun in both competitive and non-competitive play.

 

[BBQTV]

this is blasphemy this is madness THIS IS SPARTA!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[swordgard]

Dismissing the pro ban argument using yellow writings.

Pro-Ban Side

We believe that Metaknight should be banned from competitive play, for both the health of the game and of the community.

As such, this document has been written to outline several key points to explain the reasoning behind a ban. We will begin with the first point explaining ban criteria, and follow into what makes Metaknight "too good" of a character. The latter points delve into the effects of MK on the metagame as a whole and the community. We appreciate your taking the time to read our argument and make an informed decision.



1. Metaknight is bannable.

Before we choose to ban or not to ban metaknight, a criteria must be set on what it takes to ban a character. We will write two criteria on what it takes to ban an aspect of the game. You may ask “where did you get this criteria, did you pull it out of your behind, like a Gordo or Stichface? No. Our ban criteria is derived from two sources: history/practice (past smash games, stuff we did ban in Brawl) and to a lesser extent, popular opinion.
Did you just admit to use popular appeal?


To summarize our ban criteria and the reasoning behind it – before we go into the details to support it- here we are.

Criteria to ban something in the game

[1] That aspect of the game must be so different from everything else in the game that it is an alien to the rest of the game.
[2] That aspect of the game must decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl.

Now, why set these criteria? Is it arbitrary? No. The reason these are ban criteria is because:

A- Everything we have banned in Super Smash Brothers history has met both of these criteria, and
B – Besides Metaknight, there is nothing we have yet to ban that satisfied both of these criteria.
Let me show you otherwise. Your ban criteria are way too vague and actually irrelevant.

The issue is simple. Metaknight shares all the same aspects of Brawl that we have ALREADY BANNED – In Brawl, and to lesser extents, Melee and Smash 64. Thus, Metaknight should be banned as well.

Before we go into some details, please realize that the ban criteria the anti ban side come up with are likely not in accordance with past smash games but more likely in accordance with other fighting games. Then ask yourself what is more important: to ban what we the smash community have decided has been banworth over our series’ 8-10 year history, or to ban what other communties have set as ban criteria? Obviouisly, because this is a Smash game, the ban criteria we have set in SMASH GAMES SHOULD OUTWEIGHT THE BAN CRITERIA SET IN OTHER FIGHTING GAMES. Funny how we wish to be considered as a fighting game and then we want different ban criterias. Banning criterias are universal, and the first one does not apply, your second one is a synonym of overcentralization. The use of caps is just another way to influence the reader, which is badWe are the smash community and we are our own entity. Our game is NOT Street Fighter. We choose as a community to follow our own path and, while we take guidance from other communities, our own history sets a better standard than the history of other games.

Now, we will show the ban criteria. Then in A, we will explain how everything we banned as a community fits the ban criteria. In B, we will show how Metaknight fits the criteria.

[1] The aspect of the game must be so different than every aspect of the game that it is alien to the game.
Ice climbers are the only characters who have an infinite in the game that works on everyone. It must be alien to the game. Ban? Being different=/=broken, we dont ban stuff because its different, we ban it because it is broken or incorporates an element which is random ordetrimental to the skill comparison test that is a match. Bad criteria=bad argument.
A - What have we banned that follows this criteria?

Examples: Items, Crazy Stages, Stalling Techniques

The first thing people will say is that items are banned because they are random. That is not why they are banned. Otherwise, why do we set the first stage on random? Why do we allow King DDD to use forward b and Peach to use down B? Why is Halberd not banned (it has random hazards) Items are banned because winning based on a random event is foreign to all the other reasons you should win. As a community, we want winning to be based on overall skill set, not your ability to deal with a random event. You cannot disagree that if you are far better at dealing with food on very low than your opponent, you will likely win the items match. It has a very low effect on the outcome, yet food on very low is banned. The random factor is even smaller than the hazards on some legal stages. It’s just that as a community, the skill of being able to deal extremely will with a random event is ALIEN to the rest of the skills of the game – mind games, spacing, tech skill, and so on. This applies to crazy stages. We don’t want to see how good you are at teching. If you were perfect at teching, nobody would ever beat you on Hyrule Temple in Melee or Luigi’s Mansion in Brawl. You’d be unbeatable. But winning based on teching alone isn’t a skill you’d want to test. Same goes for stalling. It takes skill to stall. Both players can do it. So why not allow it? It’s because it’s alien to spacingpretty sure stalling involves alot of spacing, bad argument, mind games, tech skill. It’s alien and we don’t care to measure this as valuable.I dont want to see how good you are at infiniting with ice climbers, i want to see mindgames and spacing. See what i did there? Counter argument would be getting the grab takes spacing/mindgames, getting % lead for stalling and camping does too. Moot point.

B. Why Metaknight follows this CriteriaIf the criteria is bad, then MK following the criteria does not matter

This point is supported by the rest of the pro ban argument. It’s all the stuff about MK having no bad matchups – its about MK’s unique ability to stall i remember wario being literally made to air camp most of the matchmatches and break the planking ledge grab rulesGaW can plank horribly well too. It’s about MK’s over focus on the MetagameYou have yet to prove the focus is too high, for this to be true, he would need to provoke overcentralization by force, which would mean that either you pick him or you are unviable. Considering only 3 out of 8 at genesis' top 8 were MKs, which is basically the biggest tourney to date, if other characters were unviable, you would expect more than 3 players beating the rest of the cast. And they lost to ally.. Sure, it takes skill to win with MK. But guess what? It takes skill to stall tooIt takes skill to do anything, the point is you are making a direct comparison between stalling and MK as if you wanted to imply they are similar. I dont remember M2K stalling out people >.>. It takes skill to deal with food on very low. Food is still random, nothing to do with skill. It’s just that, these aspects are so foreign to the rest of the game that they should all be removed.Food is removed due to randomness, excessive stalling is banned due to forced overcentralization it would create, this is especially the case when you take stuff like IDC. With MK in, success in brawl is determined in your ability to beat one matchup, honestly.Stop talking like you are the preacher of truth, honestly will not make me believe your argument more. Your success will not be determined by how many MKs you will beat, especially since top 8 of genesis had 5 non MKs player, you would statistically be better off knowing every other matchup than MK. Notice that the best players in the world are those that are simply good against MK.Way to show disrespect towards people who are skilled and knowledgeable. This is a simple faulty logic, if you have an easy time agaisnt the best character, and your character has no hard counter, you should be able to deal at least decently even with other unknown matchs. In other words, if you can go even with the best character, you should be able to handle the other worst characters. This is the #1 far and above beyond aspect that makes or breaks you as a player, even if you are meh at every other matchup in the game. It’s foreign and fits the ban criteria.Ban criteria is wrong as stated before, and i just proved you wrong on this. With MK removed, the game isn’t about defeating one matchup so much as it is about winning a massive load of matchups.You do not know if the bandwagon effect will not happen once again.MK Banned HOBO happened.

1st Razer(SNAKE) $550
2nd Gnes(DIDDY) $250
3rd Dojo(DIDDY/KIRBY) $100
4th Fliphop(DIDDY) $50
5th Lee M(LUCARIO) $25
5th MikeHaze (MARTH) $25
7th UTD Zac(G&W)
7th Bwett (YOSHI/D3/DIDDY)
Someone else used diddy apparently but aint listed.
Bandwagon effect version 2 in texas, lets ban diddy now, metagame will revolve around him!!!


[2] That aspect of the game must decrease the quality of every aspect of Brawl.

A – Examples of things we banned that fit this – Crazy stages, Stalling, Items

Yup, the exact same examples. When you are playing on a crazy stage, every aspect of Brawl – counterpicks, excitement of watching the matchtotally irrelevant, what if i find MK planking to be the most exciting thing in the world?, spacing, mind games are all minimized in favor of playing on the stage. Stalling. Stalling decreases the quality of watching matches, decreases viewing interest in the game, spacing, mind games and everythingExcitement and quality of match is subjective. Spacing is a huge part in stalling, so are mindgames. Stalling can be countered for the most part, stalling which cannot be countered is banned(idc). Everything? What is this everything? Stop being vague in order to give the impression that it is detrimental to some part of the game which you cannot even name. It becomes a battle of who can avoid contact. I remember falco vs ics being the same for most of the game, ban falco?Much like MK’s existence becomes about defeating MK and the ability to counterpick MK. Proved that wrong before.Items. I’m not talking about bombs, and crazy things. we mean FOOD ON VERY LOW. Why is this banned? To be honest it’s because, bluntly, WE JUST DON”T LIKE IT.No, this is not a valid ban criteria. It is banned because it is random, and a food item can actually make the difference between a killing blow and a non-killing one. Can one seriously argue that food on very low is going to make a much more skilled player lose to a less skilled player? No.I just did. It can screw close matches. But, food’s EXISTENCE decreases the importance of every single other thing – mind games, spacing, tech skill.Not so much, i fail to see how food detracts from these things except by being random. I thought you said its because you didnt like it too ... Contradiction. We just WANT to play a game where these qualities are the be all end all to test, not a game where food decreases the importance of these. Quite honestly food on very low is banned because it gets in the way of the game we want to play.Banned due to randomness.

Yes, the argument boils down to “MK is not broken enough to be unbeatable, but MK is broken enough to ruin every quality and aspect of the game in the same way everything we have ever banned has been.”Wrong ban criteria, why am i even continuing. That is where we come up with the banned criteria. Things we’ve banned in Smash Brawl, Smash Melee, and Smash 64. If you are getting your ban criteria on PERSONAL DESIRE or OTHER FIGHTING GAMES, is it really as substantial as getting it from all the banned aspects of the series of games Super Smash Brothers Brawl?You used inductive logic to get these ban criterias, they are far from perfect. Seriously, i can ban more stuff with those due to their vagueness and subjectivity. Different=/=bannable. You defined what was skill in order to make it seem like MK detracted from skill, which is plain wrong. What we have banned as a community and the reasons we have banned them are ALIGNED with why the pro ban side wishes to ban Metaknight.Of course they are, using inductive logic, you could have gotten many different criterias, and you chose the ones that happened to fit the best your views.

Problems with pro ban. Il finish it later, another day il do anti ban problems.

 

[Red Arremer]

Darnit, how many real PROS even use Meta Knight?

I want Meta Knight banned as much as the next guy (I'm not taking that spam) , but such an extended debate over the results of him being banned or not are quite illogical seeing as not everybody is here to read if the most broken character in Brawl is banned or not.

Yes, he's annoying, yes, we all hate his B (Sorry, I don't know anything else, I go for casual brawl, I haven't learned Competitive to the best of my knowledge), we're not getting to a conclusion. I've been watching such arguments going on for over a year, and frankly, it's annoying for everybody, probably even the person who made this topic.

So... if you don't go to tournaments. This vote won't affect you.
Why do you vote, then?

Meta Knight won't magically disappear from your Brawl disc.

 

[Alus]

lol, I think he means it's fun in both competitive and non-competitive play.

Elitist joke fails........

 

[swordgard]

So... if you don't go to tournaments. This vote won't affect you.
Why do you vote, then?

Meta Knight won't magically disappear from your Brawl disc.

WHich is why i had first abstained from this vote(voted anti ban my mistake, but w/e). I just dont think the community should even matter in this as alot of them are non tourney goers and stuff.

 

[MarKO X]

Hmmmmm... the criteria for a ban....

what was the criteria for:
1) the ledge grab rule?
2) banning DDD's standing infinite completely? (I know that this isn't the case in every region, but it still exists.)

there is this point that I wanna get across, but I'm not sure how to get to the point I wanna make...

 

[swordgard]

Hmmmmm... the criteria for a ban....

what was the criteria for:
1) the ledge grab rule?
2) banning DDD's standing infinite completely? (I know that this isn't the case in every region, but it still exists.)

there is this point that I wanna get across, but I'm not sure how to get to the point I wanna make...

Both were forced overcentralization, first was found to be true, 2nd wasnt.

 

[AvaricePanda]

edit: disregard this

 

[UberMario]

Standing infinite should definitely be banned, there's no other permanently inescapable move in the game.

 

[swordgard]

Standing infinite should definitely be banned, there's no other permanently inescapable move in the game.

Ice climbers infinite?


Seriously, stop coming out of nowhere with false statements.


1st of all) Different=/=bannable.

2nd, it isnt the only one to do so .

 

[Zolios]

Lol at HOBO results. Those look very similar to the metaknight results >_> <_<.

Also, congrats on almost 1337 post count Sword.

 

[Storm39]

Pro-ban all the way.

Also, the whole 2/3 majority thing makes this seem a little biased towards the anti-ban movement IMO. I don't think that we'll ever reach a 2/3 majority. It should simply be which side gets the most votes.

 

[MarKO X]

Both were forced overcentralization, first was found to be true, 2nd wasnt.

ok.
explain the forced overcentralizing that exists due to not having the ledge grab rule.

 

[Kamikaze*]

Pro-ban all the way.

Also, the whole 2/3 majority thing makes this seem a little biased towards the anti-ban movement IMO. I don't think that we'll ever reach a 2/3 majority. It should simply be which side gets the most votes.

Yes: 50.01%
No: 49.99 %

Lets ban him.

 

[swordgard]

ok.
explain the forced overcentralizing that exists due to not having the ledge grab rule.

The game would inevitably turn around planking. As soon as either side would get a % lead, he or she would plank, which would leave only the characters able to deal with plank to stay viable.

 

[PND]

Pro-ban all the way.

Also, the whole 2/3 majority thing makes this seem a little biased towards the anti-ban movement IMO. I don't think that we'll ever reach a 2/3 majority. It should simply be which side gets the most votes.

Well, no. The burden of proof lies upon the pro banners, not the anti-banners. Innocent until proven guilty. Banning a character is a HUGE deal.

 

[ShadowLink84]

The game would inevitably turn around planking. As soon as either side would get a % lead, he or she would plank, which would leave only the characters able to deal with plank to stay viable.

If there are charactes who can deal with the planking, it does not matter.
As long as there are more than two or even three, its fine.

 

[MarKO X]

The game would inevitably turn around planking. As soon as either side would get a % lead, he or she would plank, which would leave only the characters able to deal with plank to stay viable.

Okay...
how is this not different from having one best character and leaving only the characters that can deal with him viable?

 

[BarDulL]

This is the statement I have a problem with.

You got this statement from what, exactly? Talking to tournament goers? Looking at character boards?

I don't see how exactly the metagame has become countering MK, and until someone can give me concrete proof of this vague statement, I can't take it seriously. Most people don't main characters just because they're good against MK. Character boards don't focus on new applications of their moveset, looking for ATs, etc., just to have a good match-up against MK. They do it to keep up with the already evolving metagame and not become stale.

Edit: How did I manage to double post in this thread? o_O

lol, the current tier list was built with MK in mind. that's why marth is 7th while falco/wario/diddy are 3rd/4th/5th, because those are basically the only other characters that can consistently take matches off of MK other than snake (although i don't see many snakes beating good MKs nowadays, oddly enough.)

the community has been trying to find ways to beat MK since MK got popular. saying the metagame isn't about beating MK is ********. if it wasn't, then everyone would be playing MK. i've been playing marth and recently have picked up falco mainly to further my chances in beating top MKs in my region. i'm not an exception, either.

 

[swordgard]

Okay...
how is this not different from having one best character and leaving only the characters that can deal with him viable?

He only makes 3 character unviable by himself. Planking would supposedly makes 9-1 matchups.


Planking would inevitably make the game revolve solely around MK vs snake as he really the only one who can hit MK without actually having to get near the ledge as to get gimped.


I didnt say I favored the ban of planking, imo it should have been let out for more time to see if we can actually counter it. I just said thats why TOs banned it.


EDIT: Reread it please, fixed a few mistakes.

 

[AvaricePanda]

Okay...
how is this not different from having one best character and leaving only the characters that can deal with him viable?

Because many characters can deal with him. He's only the worst match-up for 3 or 4 characters, and the other characters he decimates would still be unviable without him, because they have other top tier horrible match-ups.

The ledge grab rule is very inefficient as far as planking goes, because it doesn't even prevent planking. You only have to regrab the ledge when your opponent is near, and even then you can air-camp around the ledge to reduce the amount of times you have to regrab it. If the opponent is onstage, you can just stay on the ledge and not regrab it.

The thing about planking is that I'm almost certain we don't know enough about it. Other than the characters who can known beat it, not many character boards actually looked into it far. I don't recall anybody getting frame-data on, "the perfect plank," and seeing the vulnerability frames, etc.

I just remember, "OMFG PLANKING, MAEK A RULE PLZ."

 

[Palpi]

lol, the current tier list was built with MK in mind. that's why marth is 7th while falco/wario/diddy are 3rd/4th/5th, because those are basically the only other characters that can consistently take matches off of MK other than snake (although i don't see many snakes beating good MKs nowadays, oddly enough.)

the community has been trying to find ways to beat MK since MK got popular. saying the metagame isn't about beating MK is ********. if it wasn't, then everyone would be playing MK. i've been playing marth and recently have picked up falco mainly to further my chances in beating top MKs in my region. i'm not an exception, either.

Wario is just overhyped Bardull. Both me and you know he will go down in the future. Diddy is completely deserving of his spot imo.

 

[swordgard]

Can anyone adress the problems i found in pro ban argument?

 

[BarDulL]

Wario is just overhyped Bardull. Both me and you know he will go down in the future. Diddy is completely deserving of his spot imo.

that's my whole point. the reason why those characters moved so high up in the tier list is BECAUSE the metagame is about beating MK, and thus they got hyped up and moved higher up on the tier list.

i.e. fiction beats m2k and everyone is like "OMG WARIO IS GOOD vs. MK!!!!!" and the SBR puts wario at 4th on the tier list.

diddy is pretty good, but he is somewhat of a gimmick. take away his bananas and he moves down in tiers. it's like fighting ICs: desync them and you're safe.

 

[MarKO X]

No real evidence for the banning of planking... okay.

Would you also say that there was no real evidence for the banning of the "Infinite Cape Glitch"? Like, we just got the frame data for the start up, the beginning of the invincibility and invisibility, and the cool down frames this past weekend. Is there really enough evidence to ban that, especially since when I showed the video of M2K using it, you anti-banners were like, "So what, big deal?"

 

[SwastikaPyle]

The entire game revolves around Metaknight and ways to beat him.

There's a reason we have threads like, "Anti-Tornado move list!"

The entire metagame revolves around what characters can beat him or even attempt to go even with him.

 

[PND]

^Welcome to fighting games.

 

[Palpi]

that's my whole point. the reason why those characters moved so high up in the tier list is BECAUSE the metagame is about beating MK, and thus they got hyped up and moved higher up on the tier list.

i.e. fiction beats m2k and everyone is like "OMG WARIO IS GOOD vs. MK!!!!!" and the SBR puts wario at 4th on the tier list.

diddy is pretty good, but he is somewhat of a gimmick. take away his bananas and he moves down in tiers. it's like fighting ICs: desync them and you're safe.

Hasn't diddy been outplacing marths at national tournament for quite some time?