Fourth and final community vote about Meta Knight.

[Supermodel From Paris]

I approve of love an happiness.

 

[Clai]

It does make him bannable when EVERY OTHER CHARACTER does have at least one bad matchup. Why should MK have the luxury of never having to CP anyone with a differ character, face any uphill battles, have no bad stages, etc when every other character has to. It makes no sense for anyone to not play MK. And he does have some 8-2s and 7-3s.

Which reasons haven't we refuted already? State a reason and I bet the anti-ban side has already answered to it multiple times.

Hey, Chibo, let me tell you something.

METAKNIGHT'S THE BEST CHARACTER IN BRAWL!

That's the reason why he has the luxury of never having to CP anyone with a different character or face any inherent uphill battles based on stages when every other character does.

It also makes no sense for the great majority of people to give up their mains to play MK.

Several characters have more 8-2's and 7-3's than Metaknight. In fact, many characters invalidate more of the cast than Metaknight does. Metaknight is not special in that regard.

This was from yesterday.

Although I did not answer nearly as much yesterday as I did for this current post, get *****, Chibo.

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

Young MK? LOL.
Since he won't get banned, EDC should be.

 

[tocador]

Here's a question for everyone:
Would Brawl be more balanced without MetaKnight?

No MK = more GaW/oli/Marth/DDD

This specific characters shut down like, 70% of the cast, so the answers is different.

If you want a top tier balanced game, yeah, brawl would be.

If you want a full rooster balanced game, no, brawl is better with MK.

 

[Tien2500]

Here's a question for everyone:
Would Brawl be more balanced without MetaKnight?

Sort of. I think. There would be some semblance of balance between the top tiers and you'd see more diverse tournament placings. Some Atiers may move up. You wouldn't see low tiers viable or anything though.

 

[CT Chia]

(To Clais big post)
Despite being able to tear your post down piece by piece, I only have one simple reply at this time:

wtf is a vacuum

 

[Supermodel From Paris]

someone needs to make that texture right now

 

[ShinoBee]

Not gonna lie, but the ban drama seems to bring out the bad sides of a lot of people. I still haven't gotten satisfying answers, though it does tell me a lot.

"Easy to name on top of their head."
"Shut up."
"Smash is not a regular fighting game."

FUNNY ENOUGH, you guys want Smash to be treated like a fighting game, yet refused for it to be compared to other fighting games that were in the ban/tier situation.

 

[MarKO X]

Brawl's Worst Nightmare:

Just tryin' to lighten the mood in here. So much arguing and hate and not enough love and happiness.

A happy MetaKnight would definitely be waaaay more dangerous than the current MetaKnight.

 

[Clai]

(To Clais big post)
Despite being able to tear your post down piece by piece, I only have one simple reply at this time:

wtf is a vacuum

Doing things, such as talking about Brawl, in a vacuum is when you theorize about something without paying attention to the reality that surrounds it.

The term is taken from physicists who first experiment with atoms or quarks or such in a vacuum'd container, where all the air and anything else that might disrupt the experiment, out of the container first. If the experiment works inside the vacuum, then they have a reasonable belief to test it in the actual atmosphere. Of course, since in the actual atmosphere there is air, oxygen and such, the experiment has a chance of not working, since even the slightest of interaction with the atmosphere might disrupt and ruin the experiment.

In Brawl terms, you are implying since that Metaknight has no bad match-ups, Metaknight would, in theory, dominate the tournament scene since every single person playing to win would use Metaknight since that, in theory, gives the player the best chance to win.

You can see that in reality, people don't actually do that.

Yeah, good luck with the rest of my post.

 

[Fatmanonice]

Here's a question for everyone:
Would Brawl be more balanced without MetaKnight?

Oh, without a doubt and I explain most of my reasoning below. Also, Metaknight doesn't really keep anyone in check so the "ZoMg, sNaCk/dA eYeZ cLiBbErS/mArF wIlL bEcUm ErNsToPtAbLE" argument is garbage if not only for the fact that those characters have character/stage counterpicks.

ur right I can't wait until they ban meta knight so I can win some regionals with ganondorf :)

As I've said maybe 4 or 5 times in the past three days, the goal here is not to make the low/mid tier characters viable. With Metaknight gone, a vast majority of the cast would lose a crappy match up but many characters in the low/mid tier would still have match ups that keep them unviable like Donkey Kong vs King Dedede or Ganondorf vs... anyone with a projectile . For them, things could become better or worse for them in particular regions depending on who becomes more popular with Metaknight gone. For example, Mario would benefit if more ROB player showed up in one region but would be hurt if the number of Game and Watch players increase. At this present time, Metaknight is the only character who is genuinely popular across all regions so, all in all, no low/mid tier character would benefit or be hurt across the board with Metaknight getting the boot except Jigglypuff and Yoshi due to them having a much harder time with about just about every other top/high tier character.

In conclusion, the goal here is not to "save the whole cast" but rather expand the number of high tier characters who would be reasonably viable with Metaknight gone (Marth, Pikachu, Toon Link, ROB, Olimar, and some would argue Pit and Peach) or have a decent chance of getting a boost from having him gone (Mr. Game and Watch, King Dedede, and Ice Climbers). Falco, Diddy Kong, and Snake would lose a little bit of viability because they'd lose their roles as "Metaknight counters" (again, Metaknight has no true counters) and, like with the low and mid tier characters, their future would be determined in certain regions by who would become popular with Metaknight gone. As far as I can tell, Wario (the sexy delicious beast) is the only high tier character that wouldn't be that affected by Metaknight getting the boot as, aside from Metaknight, he's probably the most adaptable character in the game.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Young MK? LOL.
Since he won't get banned, EDC should be.

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3178479

I take these links seriously, thank you.

 

[AvaricePanda]

... thanks for taking the one line out of context and then proceeding to ignore everything else I said... For starters, yes, Metaknight has the lowest learning curve. He has no true legal techs. He has no counterpicks both stage and character. He has no noteable weaknesses. Mr. Game and Watch has all four so naturally, it gives Mr. Game and Watch players more to learn in order to be successful. If you ask me, Metaknight ---> Mr. Game and Watch ---> ROB ---> Olimar, when it comes to the lowest learning curves in the game. Going back to the point that you ignored, it would be borderline impossible for Metaknight to fall too far behind if there was a temp ban for him. To avoid my words being twisted (again), we already know the results of a temp ban because Metakight banned tournaments, on average, show more character diversity in people that place and higher attendance so it's pointless to temporarily ban Metaknight.

Also, why do we keep comparing Brawl to Street Fighter? You're comparing a game who's main goal was to appease people who like Nintendo in general to a game where David Sirlin was actually on the development staff and was build from the ground up for the competitive community. With that being said, there's an enormous difference and further highlights how you can't truely compare Brawl to other fighting games. This is a point I've made three times now that has conveinently been ignored. We can't keep pretending that this game is something that it's not and treat it accordingly. Honestly, didn't the Melee vs Brawl debates teach anyone anything? You'd figure that with people like Yuna on the anti-ban side that people would stop comparing Brawl with "superior" competitive games.

Thanks for ignoring my...this makes 4, now....posts that I've directly responded to your argument to disprove what you've said, yet you still say the same things as if I never said them.

Don't get angry because someone took one line out of context from you; at least they didn't ignore you four times.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

"Easy to name on top of their head."
"Shut up."
"Smash is not a regular fighting game."

FUNNY ENOUGH, you guys want Smash to be treated like a fighting game, yet refused for it to be compared to other fighting games that were in the ban/tier situation.

I will quote this to reinforce my earlier statement. Then I will unsubscribe from this thread.

Thank you, Shino. I knew there was someone out there who thought along the same lines as me.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Eternal Yoshi]

http://objection.mrdictionary.net/go.php?n=3178479

I take these links seriously, thank you.

Ooooh. How unfortunate.

 

[Tien2500]

I will quote this to reinforce my earlier statement. Then I will unsubscribe from this thread.

Thank you, Shino. I knew there was someone out there who thought along the same lines as me.

Smooth Criminal

I kind of like that Smash is different from other fighting games. If I wanted to play MvC2 I'd go play it.

 

[etecoon]

Etecoon, stop trolling. Even if your avatar looks like a troll....

fine, this thread is pointless by now though we should have more fun with it instead of treating it like srs biznez =/ I didn't really think about that when I used this pic, I just took a pic of an etecoon from SM o-O

 

[Alus]

Maybe I missed or misunderstood something, but since when in the hell is this what the anti-ban is saying?

I think I recall Mew2King saying that...I think...

And it wasn't that it was not a important part of the game...because it is...but it shouldn't be... because the game wouldn't = 100% skill anymore and only the characters you choose really matter or something like that so it shouldn't be just counter picking.

I think...
Don't remember clearly...Can someone figure this out?

Geez... a lot of talk has been going on...And it isn't even about MK.

*starts to read again*

 

[Fatmanonice]

Thanks for ignoring my...this makes 4, now....posts that I've directly responded to your argument to disprove what you've said, yet you still say the same things as if I never said them.

Don't get angry because someone took one line out of context from you; at least they didn't ignore you four times.

What, that other fighting games have characters comparable to Metaknight? I addressed that. That Metaknight doesn't make anyone unviable and it's all in people's heads? I addressed that too. That Brawl should be compared to and be given the same standards as Street Fighter and Guilty Gear despite it truthfully being more targeted and made for the casual audience than competitive? Again, I addressed that as well. I addressed your statements and now I was addressing someone else here since I've gone back and answered all your rebuttals. I find it weird when people address people in comments that are directed at someone else and say that it's towards them but, hey, that's just me.

Speaking of which, I'm going to be on the road for the next two and half hours so I won't be able to respond to this until later (if you respond) so please don't accuse me of ignoring you if you comeback in 5 minutes and there isn't a response. I always get back to people but sometimes it takes more than 10-15 minutes because I have stuff to do. With that being said, please be patient and I'll gladly get back to you when the time comes.

 

[ShadowLink84]

I will quote this to reinforce my earlier statement. Then I will unsubscribe from this thread.

Thank you, Shino. I knew there was someone out there who thought along the same lines as me.

Smooth Criminal

This, even though myself and others have on multiple occasions, explained the validity of these comparisons.

Hell you can even compare card games depending on how you present the comparison.

 

[Strong Badam]

That's bull**** some players choose their characters because they feel comfortable with him. Some players choose their character because they have something to prove.. Some players pick top tier because they seemingly want the easy way out, but competition is wayyy more than that... You have to overcome nervousness, disavantageous situations, get those clutch moments. Some players pick top tier because they have an advantage over the cast.. but you still have to put the time and effort to learn every single matchup. For example, you can't just pick MK and expect to do well.. that's not how it works, you gotta learn the spacing, what the character can do, ledge cancels.. whatever. If truly MK was easier to play then how come he's not winning even if there's a crazy amount of them?

Kage, this is true facts.
The best players in just about any other fighting game play for competition, and rarely for money; prize money is so that top players can follow their passion without going broke. Justin Wong uses Rufus in SF4, even though Rufus is clearly not the best char. Daigo uses Ryu in SF4, even though Sagat is the best. Daigo used Ken in SF3 3rd Strik, even thoguh he wasn't the best character. Justin Wong also uses Cyclops (dunno about other chars) in MvC2 even though Storm, Sentinel, Magneto, and Cable are all better.

 

[Clai]

You have to overcome nervousness, disavantageous situations, get those clutch moments.

Disavantageous situations don exits for Meatknight.
Because in Brawl theorymon, Meatknight always has the advantage no matter where Meatknight is or at what percent he is.
Therefore, Meatknight will always win Brawl theorymon.

Meatknight needs to be banned from Brawl theorymon

Spoiler

I am so not being serious right now.

 

[Maraphy]

Eh I wouldn't like to see MK banned since he's from the Kirby Universe. Just face the facts:

-Meta Knight is awesome; therefor he owns
-It's just a game, you shouldn't have to worry this much about it; just play and get better until you find some sort of edge against him

 

[Sovereign]

...

All I have ever heard from anti-ban is "Metaknight is not good enough to be banworthy" and the faulty comparison to characters in other, normal fighting games. WHY IS HE NOT GOOD ENOUGH IF THE ENTIRE METAGAME IS "BEAT METAKNIGHT OR DIE"?

Because Meta Knight mainers are just that **** good with him. So how about you back away from the computer and start working on your main like M2k, Tyrant, or other well-known and skilled MK mainers, because I'm sure they don't care.

Ally and Fiction can beat Meta Knight because they're that **** good, and besides, Brawl is a mental game, not a "who picks the more broken charcter" game. If you can't outsmart your opponent with what you know about your main, then prepare to lose.

And with all this attention Meta Knight has been getting, I'm surprised you guys don't work this hard on finding new ways to beat Meta Knight.

 

[ShadowLink84]

Disavantageous situations don exits for Meatknight.
Because in Brawl theorymon, Meatknight always has the advantage because there's no character that has the advantage over Meatknight or any stage that gives any character an advantage over Meatknight.
Therefore, Meatknight will always win Brawl theorymon.

Meatknight needs to be banned from Brawl theorymon, Meatknight is overcentralizing the Brawl theorymon metagame.

Spoiler

I am so not being serious right now.

I am half tempted to beat you with a logic stick considering it sn't theory and your attempt at satire is poorly done.

 

[Alus]

Eh I wouldn't like to see MK banned since he's from the Kirby Universe. Just face the facts:

-Meta Knight is awesome; therefor he owns
-It's just a game, you shouldn't have to worry this much about it; just play and get better until you find some sort of edge against him

Money is at stake here!

Money is important OMG EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT!!!

what's a game?
asdasdasdasfda

 

[Tien2500]

Kage, this is true facts.
The best players in just about any other fighting game play for competition, and rarely for money; prize money is so that top players can follow their passion without going broke. Justin Wong uses Rufus in SF4, even though Rufus is clearly not the best char. Daigo uses Ryu in SF4, even though Sagat is the best. Daigo used Ken in SF3 3rd Strik, even thoguh he wasn't the best character. Justin Wong also uses Cyclops (dunno about other chars) in MvC2 even though Storm, Sentinel, Magneto, and Cable are all better.

Rufus, Ken, and Cyclops are all pretty high on their respective tier lists. Not high but typically just under the "broken" tiers.

Edit: Not top but typically etc.

 

[Tien2500]

Because Meta Knight mainers are just that **** good with him. So how about you back away from the computer and start working on your main like M2k, Tyrant, or other well-known and skilled MK mainers, because I'm sure they don't care.

Ally and Fiction can beat Meta Knight because they're that **** good, and besides, Brawl is a mental game, not a "who picks the more broken charcter" game. If you can't outsmart your opponent with what you know about your main, then prepare to lose.

And with all this attention Meta Knight has been getting, I'm surprised you guys don't work this hard on finding new ways to beat Meta Knight.

MK has more and better options than any other character out there. Its not just a matter of get better its a matter of MK always having an advantage against you. Plus for one match he gets you on RC which for most characters is a pretty horrible matchup and you really can't CP him with stages anyway. You can beat him sure but you're always going uphill and he's always going downhill.

 

[GunmasterLombardi]

Tien 2500 double posted. >

I'm done, cya tomorrow ppl.

 

[Clai]

I am half tempted to beat you with a logic stick considering it sn't theory and your attempt at satire is poorly done.

Fair enough. I was trying to make it seem that Metaknight never gets put into disadvantageous situations in any battle ever, even if he was, say, grabbed by the Ice Climbers.

I can see where this can get miscontrued, though. Maybe I should delete the post before someone finds out and takes it the wrong way.

*EDIT: Kind of fixed it to reflect what I'm actually saying*

 

[Tien2500]

Tien 2500 double posted. >

I'm done, cya tomorrow ppl.

Yes. And I'd do it again.

 

[Zajice]

Everything that can be said has already been said in this thread. Nobody is going to change their mind no matter what you say. Even if your post makes perfect sense, nobody is going to care. What's set in their mind is set. Arguing is pointless. So why do we all continue to argue anyway? We'll never know.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Because Meta Knight mainers are just that **** good with him. So how about you back away from the computer and start working on your main like M2k, Tyrant, or other well-known and skilled MK mainers, because I'm sure they don't care.

Ally and Fiction can beat Meta Knight because they're that **** good, and besides, Brawl is a mental game, not a "who picks the more broken charcter" game. If you can't outsmart your opponent with what you know about your main, then prepare to lose.

And with all this attention Meta Knight has been getting, I'm surprised you guys don't work this hard on finding new ways to beat Meta Knight.

I think people are little discouraged due to the really good tools Meta has to deal with the cast. I've said this before but, its alot easier to put the blame on some one else than it is to actually solve the problem

also sacred theres this real negative attitude people here take towards the little people finding new tricks, they either totally disregard it or dis credit its useful ness so untill the elitism is left to die, the smash community will slowly choke itself over by being arrogant

 

[Sovereign]

Everything that can be said has already been said in this thread. Nobody is going to change their mind no matter what you say. Even if your post makes perfect sense, nobody is going to care. What's set in their mind is set. Arguing is pointless. So why do we all continue to argue anyway? We'll never know.

My friend, believing what you just would not be pretty if everyone did. The purpose of polls and debating is to see where one is at and to sway them. It's not impossible to sway anyone, but they can put up a front as if they won't ever be.

I'm capable of being persuaded, but pro-ban has yet to post anything that would make me go, "Hmmm... you know what? You're right."
Instead, it's either been said before and/or it is simply complaining, not debating.


EDIT: YAY, I'm a Journeyman! =D

 

[hippochinfat!!]

Eh I wouldn't like to see MK banned since he's from the Kirby Universe. Just face the facts:

-Meta Knight is awesome; therefor he owns
-It's just a game, you shouldn't have to worry this much about it; just play and get better until you find some sort of edge against him

Wow this logic is unbeatable, everybody might as well stop fighting since this post is the solution.

 

[HolyCrusader]

Everything that can be said has already been said in this thread. Nobody is going to change their mind no matter what you say. Even if your post makes perfect sense, nobody is going to care. What's set in their mind is set. Arguing is pointless. So why do we all continue to argue anyway? We'll never know.

We are human beings. We will always be stubborn.

 

[Sovereign]

I think people are little discouraged due to the really good tools Meta has to deal with the cast. I've said this before but, its alot easier to put the blame on some one else than it is to actually solve the problem

also sacred theres this real negative attitude people here take towards the little people finding new tricks, they either totally disregard it or dis credit its useful ness so untill the elitism is left to die, the smash community will slowly choke itself over by being arrogant

Hence my quote, "Hate the player, and not the game"

And you're completely right. People, usually the more reknown smashers, tend to knock off discoveries made by others, and when they find it useful, the take it and dub it themselves. I'm pretty sure more of the "small" people have discovered more, but sadly it's probably been disregarded.

 

[Dark 3nergy]

Hence my quote, "Hate the player, and not the game"

And you're completely right. People, usually the more reknown smashers, tend to knock off discoveries made by others, and when they find it useful, the take it and dub it themselves. I'm pretty sure more of the "small" people have discovered more, but sadly it's probably been disregarded.

then theres this whole, "learn the match-up" advice thats spoon fed to everyone here-- this type of advice makes me lol because not every region and not every smash scene is gonna have a M2K/Fiction/Ally/Anther/SK92/etc. equalivant. So saying such a ******** phrase to someone that doesnt have this type of talent NEAR BY is literally meaningless. They ARE the match up experience. PERIOD. So unless you got friends that sport some *****'en characters that can go toe to toe with these guys, then theres probably a high chance your not gonna ENTIRELY learn the match-up IN ESSENCE. Which is where i think a vast majority of people are having issues.

edit: for face palm since theres not enough of this .gif to go around

 

[fallenangemon0]

Everything that can be said has already been said in this thread. Nobody is going to change their mind no matter what you say. Even if your post makes perfect sense, nobody is going to care. What's set in their mind is set. Arguing is pointless. So why do we all continue to argue anyway? We'll never know.

This.

You vote BAN and you're instantly bandwagon, even with logic supporting you.

You vote DON'T BAN and you're instantly an ignorant, washed up Street Fighter veteran.

 

[Palpi]

That's not true, players such as Jman or Cactuar have merely the basic tech skill needed with Fox to win and both perform extremely with that. You only need to wait for the moment to try an attack.. and since Fox has extreme priority well it's hard to punish. Fox has only even matchups depending on the stage, of course that is the same thing with MK, MK does have bad stages as well. And of course again, Brawl works differently as defensive gameplay is way more important and there's no advantage to approach so it's all baiting and making the other guy do something. It's true that MK has more priority but it's never a lost cause, you are making it seem as if MK is impossible to win against. There is always a way to punish with a certain character and I saw with Holy's Rob against M2k at one point.. M2k could NOT approach at all and he took 90% damage and then he even died because he got punished properly.. (Just an example)

Kage, you seem to be using previously mentioned stupid noob arguments and making sense of them and making good points. good job