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Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

Dre the Ace

Dre the Ace

Smash Ace
Joined
Jun 7, 2007
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850
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West Bloomfield, MI
Spam_arrows said:
Would you mind being in the next Legacy vid? You had 1 or 2 cool moments even though you lost. Got any more footage?

Also anyone else that wants to be in just post in the Where u at thread.
Click to expand...
Yeah go for it, I don't mind. And no, I don't have any more footage right now. I don't play with people with recording setups that much.
 
Archangel

Archangel

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Dec 4, 2008
Messages
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Wilmington, Delaware
NNID
combat22386
Dre the Ace said:
Yeah go for it, I don't mind. And no, I don't have any more footage right now. I don't play with people with recording setups that much.
Click to expand...
all good. I finished a teaser trailer for this. I'll post it in my thread. Everyone who isn't in this trailer will be in the next one.
 
OverLord

OverLord

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Aug 14, 2010
Messages
645
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Roma, Italy
@ mako:

go on FD against a Fox at level 1, and CG him from 0 to death. Hit just with the tip for every Utilt, Uair, and Fsmashes.

Don't play vs Booza.
 
stelzig

stelzig

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I'd recommend a level 4 over level 1 if you're going to chaingrab a CPU fox. Level4 mixes up his DI every once in a while. Also makes you have to do the pivot grab at one point most of the time. :)
 
OverLord

OverLord

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yeah I used to fight level 4, but level 1 is good for newbies 'cause he DIs always behind you, so you can learn how to turn around quickly.

But yeah, level 4 is better if you know the basics.
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

Smash Lord
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Apr 22, 2009
Messages
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Canada
I'd appreciate some constructive criticism on these tournament matches. The more situation specific, the better.

Code: DKON-H1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBaWkVSuNZc (vs. Sion, Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxoreF0hYso (vs. Dieslow's Fox/Falco/Sheik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQJk3uZZs-4 (vs. Hitsugaya, Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB-kzo-OhqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKaKrkIcWl4 (both of these sets vs. Blunted_Object10)

These are a fair gauge of how I play when I'm not too nervous.
 
Niko45

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Diakonos said:
I'd appreciate some constructive criticism on these tournament matches. The more situation specific, the better.

Code: DKON-H1

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yBaWkVSuNZc (vs. Sion, Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxoreF0hYso (vs. Dieslow's Fox/Falco/Sheik)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dQJk3uZZs-4 (vs. Hitsugaya, Fox)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WB-kzo-OhqE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RKaKrkIcWl4 (both of these sets vs. Blunted_Object10)

These are a fair gauge of how I play when I'm not too nervous.
Click to expand...
I'll comment on the Dieslow Fox and Sheik matches.

0:22 - I'm not sure if you're aware that you could be fastfalling these ledgehop fairs just cause it's now the 2nd one I'm seeing without a fastfall, and it allows him to shield grab you here.

0:32 - I notice later on that he's pretty much always tech rolling these scenarios away, which is nice, but I think in general its cheating a bit to walk over/WD over and up tilt here. If you just short hop right below the middle of the platform you should be able to cover all tech options on reaction, plus if he still tech rolls away you just fair -> dair or fair fsmash him for a nice early edgeguard opportunity.

1:10 - 1:15 - I'm not sure how it works with Fsmash, if there is a possible timing here where you can connect, but I find dtilting out over the ledge area snuffs this type of recovery consistently, and if he chooses to go high you will be out of lag in time to follow up. Maybe you were worried about him firefoxing directly at you, which COULD hit you, but dtilt actually hits kinda of high, he needs to pretty much firefox straight at Marth's standing head level to get over the dtilt, hard to call but dtilt probably would have gotten you the KO safely here either time.

1:50 - 2:00 - pretty apparent at this point that he's going to let you do most of the approaching. I really like nair here to pressure his space, but I'm not sure about some of these follow ups. Nair to dash attack? I like nair to assist DD camping in their face. Nair to dash away. Or if they try to attack past your range after the nair, you can dash at them, run underneath them, and cross them up. In general from neutral position I think you're a little heavy on the dash attack approaches. One thing I have grown to hate about dash attack is that it's hitbox is actually pretty crappy. Takes so much precision and lags about as much as fsmash (well, the difference is negligble since both have enough lag to get you punished either way). I can see what you were seeing here with him camping too close to you, but if I decide the fox is napping and want to invade his space, I would go with nair -> WD fsmash. That would have gotten you the extra range you needed to hit him.

2:43 - Man, no Marth uses ftilt as well as you. :)

4:08 - Yea, again here with the platform tech chases. This time he switches it up (though he should have just tech'd in place since that tech roll is cut short and just gives you extra time to punish), and you react with a cross stage tipper. That's certainly ok, but not ideally what you're looking for.

4:39 - you seem a bit predictable coming up from the ledge. So far I've only seen ledge hop fair and nair really. It's not the best time to point it out really because at the high % you were at your ledge stand up and roll up are not great options, but I might have tried a ledge hop waveland in place right at the lip of the edge.

4:54 - omg I wanted to see a dash cancelled fsmash or a WD fsmash here. Would have been so beast. I don't blame you at all for going for the fair, though, I thought that would work as well.

5:52 - I like this dash attack here. Once you've pushed some type of frame advantage on them and you know they sense the danger, dash attack works out perfectly here. From pure neutral position, though, it's hurting you much more than it's helping. Even the ones you are landing at low %, he's good at being unpredictable in teching it, and you're not getting much out of it. Sometimes from neutral position you just have to really stubbornly camp and bait him for a grab.

6:04 - you could have regrabbed here. Might have just been a mistake.

6:31 - had an fsmash here instead of dropping off the platform with fair. Sorry if it seems nitpicky to point stuff like this out but I find that it helps to be conscious of how to improve these scenarios.

7:57 - Might have just been from just having fought his spacies for 2 matches but a full hop bair might have been better here. There was a small window where he could have counter attacked you or grabbed you but he didn't capitalize. Full hop bair -> fastfall on to the platform would allow you to pressure him as he came down or follow up further into a potential ken combo depending on his DI.

8:01 - I'm actually really surprised he didn't survive that dair. I feel like I see sheiks comfortably surviving dairs at that height/% all the time. *shrug*

8:23 - Throughout these matches I see him constantly trying to follow up in combos where he really doesn't have it and you fairing him away. Just be aware that he could easily have just stood there and baited this, then grabbed you or done whatever he wanted after. He got lucky to trade with you, but thats another problem. Trading with sheik is much worse than trading with fox.

9:10 - alright now if dash attack is ill-advised against fox, its downright awful against sheik. You really just can't even afford to be lagging like that against her at all, and the payoff on dash attacking sheik is not like it is on spacies. You're also kind of approaching her with fsmash a little bit too, which I really just would not do at all unless you're up against a sheik that is just kind of repeatedly full hop needling you at a distance. In my experience sheik has to be camped so so hard cause she has the defenses to snuff all of your approaches and the payoffs on risky approaches is so much lower than against spacies (typically you aren't going to get 3 ken combos per match, unfortunately).

9:15 - Hmm, I'm trying to think of a possible reason you up B'd to the stage here. Generally if you see sheik facing outwards on stage you can sweetspot up B very safely. The little dip down she did shouldn't really bait anything cause it doesn't change the fact that you're probably going to need to ledge tech a rising nair no matter how you up B. Maybe you just didn't realize she was at such low %.

9:50 - beautiful fair comboing here. I feel like Marth players underestimate how complicated fair comboing can be. Gotta know when to tip and not tip, when to fast fall, etc. Perfectly done. Bad DI always appreciated from sheik.

9:58 - man, spaced ftilts are a *****, aren't they? Clanks with fsmash and then, guess what, at 59% you can't even CC it. It knocks you down, giving sheik those lethal tech chase opportunities. I feel your pain.

10:30 - 10:38 - classic Marth vs Sheik campfest. You just said **** it and approached, though. In those spots Sheiks tend to love to play tricks right in front of that platform, either needling the middle ground from the platform or coming down with a fair and immediately retreating. If you can get a read on what the sheik will do, this is the best time to try to dash under her full hop needles, cross her up, and either grab or reverse fsmash depending on where her positioning is. Doesn't play out here but just saying it to say it I guess lol.

Hope at least some of that is helpful.
 
ChivalRuse

ChivalRuse

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The f-tilt knocked him over because he was doing another move while holding down. If you hold down while in any animation, you will get ASDI down, not a true CC.

Iirc, Marth can CC Sheik's f-tilt up to ~85%.
 
Diakonos

Diakonos

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Niko, I really appreciate that. Thanks very much. I'll go over that in detail tomorrow.

Can someone critique me vs. Fox?
 
Tee ay eye

Tee ay eye

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Messages
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AZ
what do you do when falcon (and other people) wait for you to throw **** out and just punish your holes? do you just stand there or do you try to attack them some other way?

btw...

refcode: kneegalize was the worst combo video ever made

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXAxN82LE_M
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=a3AEQkUJ7OU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=afnlBk-FdiM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6v5qx6eS8lc
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PHoV29UBgp8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzYi9ilYfbM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GnYjI8_FnPY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LqA6C195JyE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y8NSy0qUc1U
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gKawIjtN7EU
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=la3wziFqyMQ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErVWUtbbESA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CthiJCUKjMw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg8K2uuAIs8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_Ee4-uUwOvg
 
Niko45

Niko45

Smash Master
Joined
Apr 16, 2008
Messages
3,220
Location
Westchester, NY
Comments for Tai:

Try throwing stuff out there farther away from CF, so that it works as bait to make him think he can punish you when he can't. I understand that certain spacings and frame advantages pop up through out matches in which this isn't possible and really I guess just try to be as tricky as you can in those spots.

Your combo game on CF is really great. Really entertaining matches with some creative stuff on your part. You might want to try focusing on Marth's gimp game. Work in more dropzone fairs, or those WD off fastfall fair into the stage tricks on CF. You're using my personal favorite which is to just take the ledge and then force him on stage and **** him but I try to think of Marth's gimp game as something he really needs to take advantage of as best he can, so mixing in those more aggressive edgeguard/gimps might help.

You seem to get very tempted to catch CF jumping prematurely with advancing SH fair or advancing full hop fair even. Idk if it's just greed or that CF is making you uncomfortable by just standing a bit out of your range but you're probably going to want to cut this out of your game completely since the risk reward is not quite there. You're also doing some up tilting from neutral position, sometimes trying to catch CF jumping out of a bit of shield pressure or just to try to guess him coming in with an approach. Up tilt is just a bit too laggy for this and once they catch on they will wait for it while they're still in shield and then knee you afterwards.

Make sure you're extra careful not to get stomped through the platforms. On any stage besides FoD you can just duck to avoid the hit box and then punish with fsmash or up tilt, but on FoD you don't want to be challenging there (you at least have to shield -> nair or something instead of just ducking or up tilting) and in general its devastating for CF to hit you from this spot so just be extra confident you're going to win that challenge if you go for it.

Also, another way to stop CF from just sitting back and punishing your lag is to approach him every once in a while. I think in general you might be playing it a little on the passive side, trying to stay away and then anticipate his approaches when he attempts them (where being wrong really hurts you). Watch how the CF is playing you and if you think they're asleep at the wheel DD camping you or something approach with dtilt or fsmash (a lot of CFs will try to counter dtilt approaches by just stomping in place as you come in under them, which fsmash will hit). You can also fake approaches by suddenly running at them and then WDing in place from a distance where it puts pressure on them, bait them to shield, and then hopefully you can pick them apart from there. I just find this stuff kind of necessary from time to time to keep CF off balance and giving him something to worry about instead of him sitting back just waiting for me to lag.

I really like nair -> DD in this matchup because its a very safe move from neutral stance and can bait them to try to punish you when they can't. You can work it from different distances, and if they start to overpursue your DD away, you can dash towards them and cross them up as they try to approach past you.
 
AceDudeyeah

AceDudeyeah

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Dec 13, 2007
Messages
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Floridaa!
Mar, I took a look at the 2nd match.
Noticed a couple a things. Prolly someone else can tell you more.
2:32- Fsmash after uair?
uhhh, hmmm, try not the side-b so far above the stage.
just let yourself come down.
Maybe against a Marth you wanna bait out an fsmash with side-b if above him.
But against a spacy try to come down to the ground or the edge and keep them in front of behind you so you can fair/bair 'em away if they try to attack you when you land.
Lost 2 of your stocks for side-b-ing so high.
ummm, try using shffl uair's to punish people teching on platforms. covers more area that utilt and you can move yourself around instead of standing in 1 spot with the uptilt.
You'll notice it more/find it more useful on dreamland. haha
But yoshi's, go ahead, use utilt.

Edit: Just watched the first match.
Hmm, more dash dancing. Your movements were always towards the opponent, whether it was walking or dashing. Make yourself more unpredictable.
That first time stock you had it right. Shffl'ing your aerials so you don't get grabbed. Then you reverted to spamming fsmash and missed shield grabs?
Also, I noticed you like to stand there and chain/land uptilts, while that may be fun, I used to do it, it leads nowhere. haha
Try to judge when the uptilts won't work and toss in a fair in there or something else.
The fair can lead to a lot of things, depending on whether you short or full hop it.
Upthrows are good at sheik, but only at early percents. Once she gets above 40-50, try throwing her towards the edge and either tech chase or edgehog and force 'em to up-b back onto the stage for the punish.
Last note: Work on getting your l-canceling smoother.
Hope that helped!
 
Tee ay eye

Tee ay eye

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Messages
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AZ
Niko45 said:
Comments for Tai:

Your combo game on CF is really great. Really entertaining matches with some creative stuff on your part. You might want to try focusing on Marth's gimp game. Work in more dropzone fairs, or those WD off fastfall fair into the stage tricks on CF. You're using my personal favorite which is to just take the ledge and then force him on stage and **** him but I try to think of Marth's gimp game as something he really needs to take advantage of as best he can, so mixing in those more aggressive edgeguard/gimps might help.
Click to expand...
I've tried WD off fair, and it *never* works vs Axe and GG7, so I just nixed it from my game :dizzy:

WD off to steal the edge *is* amazing, though. I don't think enough people do it.

Niko45 said:
You seem to get very tempted to catch CF jumping prematurely with advancing SH fair or advancing full hop fair even. Idk if it's just greed or that CF is making you uncomfortable by just standing a bit out of your range but you're probably going to want to cut this out of your game completely since the risk reward is not quite there. You're also doing some up tilting from neutral position, sometimes trying to catch CF jumping out of a bit of shield pressure or just to try to guess him coming in with an approach. Up tilt is just a bit too laggy for this and once they catch on they will wait for it while they're still in shield and then knee you afterwards.
Click to expand...
Yeah, both of these are because I want to beat his jumps. What exactly should I do as an alternative?

Niko45 said:
Make sure you're extra careful not to get stomped through the platforms. On any stage besides FoD you can just duck to avoid the hit box and then punish with fsmash or up tilt, but on FoD you don't want to be challenging there (you at least have to shield -> nair or something instead of just ducking or up tilting) and in general its devastating for CF to hit you from this spot so just be extra confident you're going to win that challenge if you go for it.
Click to expand...
Yeah, I usually duck. If I get hit by stomps, it's usually cuz I didn't expect a stomp/react in time, or I forgot that I was on FoD :laugh:

Niko45 said:
Also, another way to stop CF from just sitting back and punishing your lag is to approach him every once in a while. I think in general you might be playing it a little on the passive side, trying to stay away and then anticipate his approaches when he attempts them (where being wrong really hurts you). Watch how the CF is playing you and if you think they're asleep at the wheel DD camping you or something approach with dtilt or fsmash (a lot of CFs will try to counter dtilt approaches by just stomping in place as you come in under them, which fsmash will hit). You can also fake approaches by suddenly running at them and then WDing in place from a distance where it puts pressure on them, bait them to shield, and then hopefully you can pick them apart from there. I just find this stuff kind of necessary from time to time to keep CF off balance and giving him something to worry about instead of him sitting back just waiting for me to lag.
Click to expand...
Yeah, definitely true. I need to work on this (approaching when they're waiting for me to throw **** out and punish) vs all characters, but especially vs the fast characters. Approaching with Marth is so scary cuz they can **** it with anything if they see it coming :embarrass

Thanks for the critique. Most of it was stuff I already *SORTA* knew, but being told many times in different ways helps with remembering, so that's good.
 
Niko45

Niko45

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Tee ay eye said:
Thanks for the critique. Most of it was stuff I already *SORTA* knew, but being told many times in different ways helps with remembering, so that's good.
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Exactly. Especially since none of the amazing Marths do any critiquing, the best I can really hope to do is just point out fairly basic things just to kinda "bring it to your attention." I wouldn't expect anything I say to blow anybody's mind, but I do apologize if any of it seemed annoyingly obvious or not worth mentioning.
 
HT F8

HT F8

Hostile Takeover
Joined
Jul 7, 2008
Messages
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Newburgh, NY
ChivalRuse said:
You could do more with your u-throws. Learn to space SH fast fallen uairs so that they tip on platforms.
Click to expand...
Thank you, will do. I had massive controller johns... which is why I would uthrow and stand there and turn around... wasn't using my cont, so turn around chaingrabs just weren't happening. :(
 
Metal Reeper

Metal Reeper

Smash Champion
Joined
Oct 20, 2006
Messages
2,285
Location
Abington PA
ILM said:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mPxksb6oNpc

There's one of me getting *****. Any pointers would be great.
Click to expand...
Don't counter as much, unless you know 100% your going to get hit. You also didn't JC your grabs at 1:40. Uthrow Utilt cant mess up Sheik at really low %. Try not to throw out Fsmashes as much
Your Dtilting was good, Dtilt owns Sheik. You were also Dairing his shield, which isn't good.

Hope that helped fellow Marth <3
 
stelzig

stelzig

Smash Lord
Joined
Jul 10, 2006
Messages
1,415
Location
Århus, Denmark
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvdJJPesF2s
Any tips on how I should play against this guy? (samus) /play in general
It's supposed to be a pretty easy matchup, but right now I find it alot more easier to beat him with PAL sheik =[

(This tournament was played pretty late - grand finals between 4 and 5 AM - and Denmark isn't very good at melee so don't expect a spectacular match :p)
 
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