Q&A "Everyone Look At Me!" The Marth Video Critique Thread.

[Fortress | Sveet]

When you get samus in the air, you have to keep her there. She can't combo break marth unless u misspace. When she is on the ground its really difficult to get consecutive hits because of CC, so I usually spend a lot of time trying to bait them into going into the air. After a grab I prefer going for fair chains instead of looking for fsmash because the fsmash simply isn't there.

When you are spacing from neutral you have to consider the fact that the samus player will probably be shielding or CCing at all times. Because of that, its usually unsafe to move forward with an aerial. The way I think of it, you should approach on the ground with dtilt to "gain" that ground. Samus can't CC your dtilt and other than aerials i think only a well spaced utilt can beat it. Once you've gained your ground, if you want to aerial either move backward or shffl in place. This will prevent the samus from doing her CC defense. Obviously once samus is in the air none of this applies. You should always attack at samus in the air (watch out for platform baits tho)

 

[OverLord]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KvdJJPesF2s
Any tips on how I should play against this guy? (samus) /play in general
It's supposed to be a pretty easy matchup, but right now I find it alot more easier to beat him with PAL sheik =[

(This tournament was played pretty late - grand finals between 4 and 5 AM - and Denmark isn't very good at melee so don't expect a spectacular match )

don't to that full hop Nair thing, it's just not safe. It may look fancy, but it doesn't really work.

And watch out Eagle's spot-dodges, he spams it. I suggest some baiting and pivot grabs.

 

[stelzig]

Eagle has a pretty good reaction time so I don't think it's so easy to bait spotdodges (at least he says he actually reacts to the attack when spotdodging anyway), I didn't really notice or think about him still doing it lately though so thanks for that.
More dtilt spacing and pivot grabbing sounds good though. I think I may have done that before, I feel like I start learning the matchup all over every time I play these guys lol.

Edit: About full hop Nair could you point out a time in the match where I do it? I'm not quite sure what you mean (though admittedly I haven't checked the video again myself)

 

[Fortress | Sveet]

if he is doing it on "reaction" to an attack that just means he is reacting to one of the signals of an attack. Pretty much every time he hit your shield he spotdodged immediately, from what i saw that was his biggest spam area. Otherwise he was just doing a lot of outspacing.

edit- oh the 2nd half he did a lot of spot dodging ur attacks. Its not reaction, its just "standard" timing for attacks that he spotdodged. You were only falling fair or double jumping, basically, so if you came down he knew he could just spotdodge cause u were gonna attack. If u had just fast fell with no attack and then fsmashed or grabbed, he would have been screwed.

 

[stelzig]

Well he does have a faster reaction time than any other danish smasher so he does react pretty well. But he did use to have a problem with rolling habits (not with samus ) and there's also a couple of other habits (like always trying to jump out of stuff so you just double jump after him).
But thanks again i'll look out for his spotdodging more. We (or navn) got his rolling habit killed by resting him with puff, maybe it's time to do the same to his spotdodging, lol.

But yeah thanks alot I really appreciate it.

 

[OverLord]

you are full hop nairing, or double-jump nairing, at 00:10, 00:22, 00:50, 00:56 (you get Fsmashed in this one) and 01:58. Just Fair in all those situations and jump less, stay on the ground more or you will easily get outspaced.

oh and say hi to Navn, I recall playing his Fox in Berlin last spring, some good friendlies

 

[stelzig]

Hmm ok thanks. I'll take a look it at it when I get home. I don't recall using full hop Nair (at least rising) at all heh.
You played navn? (Or nahrven as foreigners seem to call him lol) How did he do? He was arguably the best in Denmark back in Berlin... Easily the best now. Only dane that seems to really improve lol. If we get monthlies between Sweden and Denmark up and running: Expect good things from him in the future :D

 

[OverLord]

he was good, we played in NTSC, so much fun. Go for monthlies in Sweden!

yeah I know you didn't use full hop rising Nair, but even if you full hop and then fastfall Nair, it's pretty predictable, against Samus you don't have to full hop too much, just delay some Fair (as you did in the second half of the match) in short hop and it should be fine

 

[stelzig]

Heh, he got ***** by aldwyn (pools) though
Ok so simply try not to drop with Nairs against samus? Or is it in general. I'll see if I can get rid of that habit

 

[OverLord]

mmh.. actually I don't know if it can work, 'cause it's not one of my habits.. can't say if it's bad or not, maybe it can work sometimes =O

btw yeah I remember Navn was good, but here in Italy we say it doesn't matter how good you are, Aldwyn is always better xD

we call him Lamborghini: from 0 to 100 in 3 seconds.

 

[Tee ay eye]

marth's nair isn't that bad for beating samus' sidestep

 

[stelzig]

Yeah I doubt i'll stop using Nair completely, but I can see what he means by the doublejump/fullhop Nairs in that match

 

[OverLord]

nono don't stop nairing, nair is good, is just the double jump/full hop thing that I don't think works, otherwise it's fine

 

[ChivalRuse]

How to beat Samus' spotdodge:

1. Stand one tipper's distance from her.
2. Wait for spotdodge.
3. Tipper.
4. ???
5. Profit.

 

[Tee ay eye]

There's a new-ish Smasher in AZ who uses Ganon

Well, he's been playing semi-actively for a long time with the old-school dudes in Tempe, like Forward and Trevyn (Zarelid), but he decided he'd start trying his hand with other people, so he came over to my Smashfest yesterday.

Johns: These ARE just friendlies, but he's really smart. His name is En1xputed

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ow5jaKzIiLA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=am_HTybFki8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f3VBjngJOb4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4jpTIR74LUk
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6mzBom-sFc0
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v3D-Z6WCR40

I don't think I'm bad at this MU, but I don't think I'm the best at it either. Discuss whatever you notice, I suppose.

 

[Niko45]

Interesting and entertaining matches as always. I haven't had much opportunity to play actual Ganon mains so I'll refrain from comment. I must say I like your use of ftilt. I think it really shines in these types of matchups where the other character is largely trying to space around marth's fair.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Jesus christ TAI, use shieldbreaker to edgeguard. **** was rancid. And punish rolls with grab.

Otherwise, entertaining matches. Very nice ganon. Sexy as always TAI.

 

[Niko45]

So I finally got some tournament vids recorded. There's another set with Vanz I really want critiqued cause I think Peach is pretty easily my worst match up, but that set is not up yet unfortunately.

Vs Hax (CF)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VBMquGHYJE
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zwCdi9DqrMQ&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CiGNxHdxu9w&list=ULXhOQKb6n8D0&playnext=1

Vs Ben-Teezy (Falco)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_SdL2ZIeFQk&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9hpnh9tC9xU&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

Once the set with Vanz goes up I'll edit that in as well, but for now I just want to get whatever advice I can going into this weekend.

Edit:

Vs Vanz (Sheik/Peach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4TyMjClvMv4
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW1BSv0ZNj8&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jzAqXMc-pgg&feature=mfu_in_order&list=UL

 

[Dart!]

Alright just watched game one vs hax, i'm gonna critique as i finish each game
The first stock you were doing everything right til you did that dsmash at 0:20, then he grabbed you and started messing up your stock. although you didn't die be careful! TBH you probably meant to dtilt instead of dsmash and i do that all the time.


@0:37 you should have ledgehop daired. you missed and covered him with an fsmash, then you should have gotten on the ledge instead of dtilting there. either way @ 0:46 when that first fair hit you could have fastfell daired him and that would have been the stock. Oh and try not to come out of hitlag falling in with an aerial, hax and most other falcons are too smart to fall for that and they'll punish it.

I love your usage of shieldbreaker when they're stuck at the ledge, @ 2:05 was beautiful but at 2:01 before that when he upb'ed and landed you should have utilted him instead of fsmashed

other than that i don't see a problem game one. ****ing GREAT finish by just gimping the **** out of him with that fall off fair

Game 2: he hit you out of your jump EVERYTIME and you lost a stock for it. you answered that super quick first stock loss with a hella aggressive flurry of attacks which was ****. i'll have to finish the rest when i get home but i LOVE what i see so far

 

[ChivalRuse]

You're worse vs Peach than vs Sheik? I find that odd.

 

[Palpi]

In match three first stock, you tried to fsmash him, but he teched it right as you swung. Obviously, if that landed it would have been devastating and most people would go for it, but since its yoshi's, the platforms are perfect for marth, so if he teched rolled left or right tech in place or didnt tech, you could've reacted and got the fsmash that way.

What you did at :48 is pretty much what I am talking about, since you knew he had to land on the platform, you wuold just react to what he did, though something went wrong, that is besides the point.

 

[Niko45]

You're worse vs Peach than vs Sheik? I find that odd.

Considering that Marth vs Peach is supposed to be 60-40 Marth, yes, easily Peach is my worst. I just really don't know very well what I'm doing in that matchup. I'm 1-3 all time in sets vs Irish Maf, though they're always really close, and Vanz peach just packs my **** in hard. I feel like I'm not great vs sheik but certainly competent. I've never lost to any non-sheik mains who just try to CP my character, and I just feel like I know how to get openings and what to do much more in that matchup.

Thanks for the feedback keep it coming!

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

Oh and try not to come out of hitlag falling in with an aerial, hax and most other falcons are too smart to fall for that and they'll punish it.

Yeah, I was about to come in here and say this, but Dart beat me to it. You do this multiple times in each match and got punished for it so I'd work on removing it from your game. Not just from hitlag either; you land with an aerial when the opponent is nowhere near you and then they just grab you. No good player is going to come near a landing Marth, so just control your twitch and trust your reflexes if they try something ballsy. Its one of those things that works on bad players like a charm so it can create bad habits.

Also, work on your uair use. Gotta cover jumps and platform shenanigans with it. Oh nd just fair/side b to stop the Falcon combo; jumping doesn't do much. Other than that, good **** and I love your Marth. Those gimps were hawt.

 

[Niko45]

Yea I think that was the most major thing besides the obvious SDs and what not. Whenever I came down with a waveland or just nothing I usually got something out of it. Def need to keep that in mind.

EDIT: the set with Vanz is up. So brutal...

 

[ZoSo]

Jaden is extremely good at that matchup, so I wouldn't worry too much about getting *****, but a couple of general Peach things you want to keep in mind:

This matchup is pretty much all about spacing and attrition. Unless you're completely positive it will pay off, don't overextend yourself to edgeguard or continue a combo. If you do **** up and take a few hits, it's extremely important that you don't get rattled. Don't jump unless she's in the air and don't get greedy when invading her space because she can float back and fair you very easily if your spacing is off. When you have her in the air without her float, just try to limit her options and rack up damage until you can kill her with utilt/uair/whatever (tipped fair on Dreamland if you're a baller). Once she's back on the ground, resume being gay. Basically, "don't get greedy" is the golden rule in this matchup.

I can watch your set and give you some more specific advice later.

 

[KevinM]

"Or tipped fair on dreamland if you're a baller"

*mafiasadface.jpg*

 

[Niko45]

Thanks Zoso. Yea getting greedy is a huge problem for me in general I think. Now I think my sheik game is much worse off cause I've figured out a lot of stuff against Peach recently (really didn't do as badly as I thought vs Vanz peach). Whatever advice I can get I appreciate.

 

[Palpi]

A fairly ambiguous tip against peach from me atleast would be...don't waste any moves, there more attacks you throw out, the more chance for a mistake and mistakes leads to getting punished.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Niko don't take this the wrong way but I think you did like actually everything wrong vs Sheik.

 

[Niko45]

Niko don't take this the wrong way but I think you did like actually everything wrong vs Sheik.

haha, well ****. Help me KK, just give me one specific.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Just one? Okies.

You run to the edge in between stocks, start ledgestalling and I swear you get hit by a full set of needles every time you do that because you then have to come back onto the stage. Often, he gets lots of grabs this way too because Marth sucks at getting onstage from the ledge (his ledgedash has woefully few invincibility frames compared to Sheik and the space animals; ledgehop attacks can be punished).

I really think the Azen style of just running around weirdly between stocks is much better in this specific matchup because if you can get Sheik to do a laggy move like dash attack or grab (ideally you avoid her so she misses) you can burn through her invinicibility and not trap yourself on the ledge and have to work out of it. On that note, getting grabbed at the edge is horrible vs Sheik on FD and Stadium because of the ultimate DI trap that I think you noticed or already knew about (DI into stage, get combo'd or U-smash KOed; DI away from her, get Faired offstage/CGed). That is another reason why it is especially bad to hang around the edge so much against Sheik when you're on the defensive (and in between stocks).

 

[otg]

KK with that practical advice.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm not sure what the best thing to do is but Marth Sheik seems much easier (at least for me) when I can hit Marth onto the edge over and over and make it hard for him to come back because Sheik has a grab that's way to big, a leg that's way too long, and a projectile that hits too many times.

 

[Niko45]

I've definitely noticed a huge decline in how useful ledge stalling is for me in general and I've been trying to cut down on it. People are just too good at covering ledge options. I'll make a more conscious effort not to do it.

 

[Tee ay eye]

Got a bunch of vids for review

Tai vs GG7 (vs Falcon) - I would like critique on this the most
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jGboVG144j4

Tai vs TAJ (vs Marth) - I would really appreciate critique here as well. Don't point out my repeated fruitless attempts at ledge wavedashing, I know that already. Also, don't bother mentioning the random suicides. I think these matches, aside from my SDs was a decent display of me vs TAJ (him laying the smackdown on me).
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SEnVI9hAoh8
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jlxNbjCMUts

Tai vs Jetfour (vs Marth/Sheik) - You guys should watch the third stock of the third game
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VU56wx7pB-I

Tai vs Silly Kyle (vs Peach)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dB2CZ31NskM

Tai vs Axe (vs Peach and others) - Just watch the Peach match, mostly. The other matches were sorta me not having my heart in the game since we split the money, and he wasn't 100% Axe, obviously, so I just cheesed my way to victory.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bYHwi2bpOao
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Pe9tossPYGc

 

[Niko45]

Just one?

I mean, I'd appreciate any advice if you're willing to give more.

 

[KirbyKaze]

k i warn you i'm not a marth main and i got lazy near the end

Niko vs Vanz

First 30 seconds
0 - 0:30

FD is good

Basic stuff then you Nair, when you can see he's gone in the air. Had you kept swinging Fair you would have been fine.

Good DI, getting behind her but you didn't combo break her for that U-smash. U-smash not legit combo.

You commit really hard with that ledgehop Fair. Good spacing though so you don't get punished.

That was a terrible approaching Fair. You did it high and landed in front of him. Why are you being so reckless?

In think you're jumping back too far for your moves to be any good. You're not even in a position to hit him with most of these moves; you're just swinging your sword. I think vs a character like Sheik, you need to be more careful than that. She has a lot of speed and a lot of range.

Next 30 seconds
0:31 - 1:00

Not sure about that recovery but it's Marth Sheik so I dunno what you do.

I'm noticing that you normally seem really rigid with your Fairs. SH FF Fair L-cancel. But he jumped really high for some obvious needles. You could have easily just DJed after the SH and immediately Faired for a free hit. He's putting himself at risk when he commits like that. I'm not sure you're really responding to what he's doing effectively.

Nice Dair but L-cancel that.

Your tech skill needs some work. Miss the L-cancel on a Dair that could have been a beautiful tech chase or Marth combo, and then you immediately flub a soft Fair --> whatever. You should have these sorts of things down.

Next 30 seconds
1:01 - 1:30

Nice D-tilt.

That was a good edgeguard. You were patient. This is what you need to do when you're edgeguarding her. Good F-smash.

Bad ledgestall.

Stop swinging your sword blindly. You need to control your impulse to swing your sword. I know it's amazing but your rhythm is really predictable and he keeps punishing you for it. You're also very stationary after you swing the sword, and wind up shielding. I understand in that position you had little choice because there was no stage behind you, but that's also likely indicative of the fact that you backed up too much and left yourself with no space remaining. Marth is largely irksome to play because his safest thing is retreating but he runs out of space quickly if you do it that way.

Next 30 seconds
1:31 - 2:00

You run too close to him and get F-tiled; you have more range, use it. It seems you're either too close or too far with a lot of your motions so you really need to work on that.

Don't pretend to be M2K and go for that spike immediately when you can see he's already gone super low; at that point just make sure you don't get hit by nonsense (DJ Fair, etc.) and the free hit for her poof is yours.

Next 30 seconds

Again with the soft Fairs at point blank. Either get more tech skill to do them lower or stop doing them. You really need to get that tech skill down when you're dealing with stuff like that so you can dash away / behind after.

Nair sucks. More semi-tech skill related errors. Improper fast faller. Personally I think Nair sucks though.

Next 30 seconds

Good air-dodge

Nice Bair

Roll to get onstage is woefully counterable by the poof trick

Next 30 seconds

Good, you were patient this time with the edge.

D-throw slap is so good it should be illegal (not really).

 

[Wenbobular]

I'll offer some comments on the one vs GG7 because I play Falcon vs Marth a lot vs my roommate haha
Not that I have much to say x(

You get punished for doing rising Fairs or Nairs on Falcon's shield which is basically a gimme attempt for Falcon to be as cheap as humanly possible off the free grab / Nair OoS

When Falcon recovers close with up-b I think you should edgeguard with Fair instead of Fsmash / Dtilt because you can get your arm grabbed if you're a little too close or just miss if he angles his up-b back if you're a little too far ... somehow Fair seems to cover the front better and I find it easier to space because it doesn't really matter what part of the sword you hit him with haha (tipped Fair -> combo, untipped Fair has a good angle for repeated edgeguards)

GG7 seems to really like his Uthrow combos ... you can make them more awkward by DIing toward his back so Falcon doesn't get the running momentum and then DIing away from the following Uair. At least it's a throw DI mixup that you could think about (even though it opens up Dthrow -> knee, you should be able to react in time)

Other than that it's a lot of cheap Falcon Uair -> Uair efficient combos, although I think GG7 could've refreshed his invincibility better when you used your side-b

Hope that helps <_<

 

[ZoSo]

Tai, with regard to your set against GG7:

-Right off the bat, I'm noticing that you jump a lot for no reason. Even in spite of all Marth's priority, it's really bad to get caught in the air by a character like Falcon. Focus on controlling the stage with your dtilt and DD, but remember that any kind of approach in this matchup carries some risk because he's so god**** fast. If you dtilt at a bad range and think you'll get DD grabbed (the most common punish), hold forward and buffer a spot dodge/roll to abuse the dtilt's IASA frames. It might not save you, but it's better than nothing.
-Single-hit forward B is a good tool in this matchup. You can use it during your dash to stuff all of his approaches.
-Watching this set, I don't think you ever once used dash attack. I don't know if that's something specific to the way you play against GG7, but definitely make use of it. Calling their retreats and punishing with dash attack is basic to Marth's game.
-If Falcon recovers high, as they're all so fond of doing nowadays, you can carry him back off the stage with weak fairs. Doing this severely limits their options compared to fsmash and the like. Try it out.
-Wenbo already pointed this out, but if you're close to his shield (at a range where he can nair or uair but not grab you), don't do shorthop rising fairs. Either dtilt, short hop auto cancel nair, utilt if you think he'll try to hit you, or just grab/empty shorthop > grab if you think he's committed to holding his shield (look for this after you've punished their rolls or jumps a few times).

Something you did really well was baiting his grabs when you were coming back from the edge. Overall, you definitely should've had the second game, but... you'll get 'em next time.

I played a set with $Mike from North Carolina last weekend. I'll post a link here when it gets uploaded. Hopefully you can learn something from it.

 

[Dart!]

Got a bunch of vids for review

Tai vs GG7 (vs Falcon) -




Tai vs TAJ (vs Marth) -

Tai vs GG7 (vs Falcon) - Name of the game was tech chasing, Taj called it out pretty much. You were losing the reaction battle the whole game, tech chasing is a huge part of destroying falcon. and its achieved best when standing still, i noticed you rolled alot too. Patient sword > Falcon
Also work on your game from getting off ledge it's noticeable in most of your sets that you get punished there very often.
You're still **** though so don't worry



Tai vs TAJ (vs Marth) - Stage control, you were jumping around and resorting to double fairs instead of using marths strongest stuff on the ground ala his throws and tilts. Taj was keeping to the ground and he noticed i believe that you were getting very jumpy (pun intended) and he punished accordingly. Also, another edgeguard to keep yourself in better position would be to counter his first up b then go offstage to punish.