EDC vs. IDC

[CRASHiC]

EDC, and IDC. Where is the line drawn?

Generally, it is up to the TO to decide the difference, but a Melee player in debate hall proposed a problem with this.

But, wouldn't you be a bit bothered by the subjectiveness and variability that might introduced in such a manner? Good competitive games operate under very strict and exacting rules (you can do certain moves when you're in such and such position, but you can't in others, etc) that are programmed into the game. There is no wiggling room, it's either allowed by the game, or it isn't. So, unless, it is determined by the community that a certain move or character essentially voids playing the game, you should be able to to do anything within the allowed confines of the game to win, because, in the end, that's all the game can distinguish between or care about; who won and who didn't.

But, can you imagine playing a game where the particulars of the rules of what isn't allowed and is allowed can change from, essentially, game to game? At least, with the banning of a move or character, there is a definite, known rule that people can work around and still play the game. But with such a vague and subjective rule, how can anyone play the game confidently knowing they are playing within the bounds, especially when the discretion of the TO can change at, essentially, any time?

I'm just trying to argue for a rule set that is known and definite, so that people are free to explore to the best of their abilities whatever strategy they think is best to win the game. If it's not known when a rule is broken or not, then the competitive spirit of a game is compromised, in my eyes.

Either way, to me, it mostly smacks of an ill-made competitive game.

As he stated, this thread in no way wishes to discuss banning or not banning Metaknight.
The issue I wish to bring up is, how can we effectively differentiate between IDC and EDC. What universal stipulations can we set to efficiently ban IDC from tournament without dispute?
Does anyone have any ideas to fix this issue?

 

[JUDGE]

hmmm...i would say you can't excatly differentiate beetween edc and idc, as you already said it's up to the TO
i would just ban both^^

 

[Muro]

why not just have a rule (like i think there is already in some tourneys): any extension of the dimensional cape is illegal ?

 

[Affinity]

What exactly is the difference between the EDC and the IDC?

I never bothered to figure out what the EDC is until now.

 

[JUDGE]

edc is when you you use idc but just not so long
it's kinda like down b reappear but you make it a bit longer (my english sux lol) so that you can approach safe

 

[Xerit]

EDC == IDC

IDC == Ban

EDC == Ban

However enforcing said ban, much like enforcing a planking/airplanking vs stalling ban is pretty much impossible in every match. Would be easier to just get rid of the root of the problem (MK).

 

[CRASHiC]

Please avoid talk about banning Metaknight. I do not wish for any hateful arguments to occur.

 

['V']

It would probably be much easier to just ban both. That way it avoids as much confusion about it as possible.

 

[Xerit]

They are both banned. The IDC ban didn't say "banned after 1 minute" it just said banned.

Just as if you banned D3's standing infinite, that doesn't mean I get to use it up to 80-90% then do the standard chaingrab to the edge and kill, it means I get DQ'd if I standing infinite at all.

 

[Snail]

I agree, there's no real way to decide how much EDC is too much, so might as well ban any extension of it. We can't have judges watch every match to see if the EDC is used for stalling or approaching, it would be a major pain.

Not to mention Meta Knight is good enough as it is >.>

 

[Dr. Tuen]

In my opinion, they both should be banned.

It would be nice to differentiate between the two, since one is a good escape, the other is massive stalling. However, doing so is just too subjective. Even if someone could make a call based on c-stick clicks alone, that would require a judge at every MK match.

Kinda on topic, is there really a way to effectively ban EDC in the first place? If I threw in an extra two c-stick clicks to get halfway across FD, how would anyone but my opponent even know? I mean, we could hack wii's and get extended replays, but that's a lot of review work for matches which get contested. (how often do matches get contested anyways...? I know there was the Genesis match...)

-Tuen

 

[Xerit]

I agree, there's no real way to decide how much EDC is too much, so might as well ban any extension of it. We can't have judges watch every match to see if the EDC is used for stalling or approaching, it would be a major pain.

Not to mention Meta Knight is good enough as it is >.>

Now how do we enforce the EDC ban?

IDC is ridiculously obvious, EDC by its very nature isn't. You'd still need a judge at every match. We'd also need to figure out exactly how far DC can go without extention using some measurement standard that can be used regardless of screen size, and then have any match where it might have happened be reviewed and checked.

I realize you don't want ban MK comments, but how exactly do you control something like this without a character ban?

 

[Flayl]

You deal with this by the same way you deal with stalling: Pause the match and calling a referee. Of course this requires the player to care about the use of EDC.

There is no other way to ban it.

 

[CRASHiC]

Suppose someone doesn't want EDC banned though, (though I disagree due to it giving the MK a get out of jail free card at any point during the match), how do we differentiate between the use of IDC and EDC Flayl.

 

[tocador]

What if someone accidentaly uses a EDC? I mean, its not to hard to do it, and someone can maybe try to buffed u-smash or just attack out of the DC and get the EDC, so what would happen in that case?

 

[Maniclysane]

What if someone accidentaly uses a EDC? I mean, its not to hard to do it, and someone can maybe try to buffed u-smash or just attack out of the DC and get the EDC, so what would happen in that case?

Have you seen someone use IDC? It takes far more than a mistake to actually extend the length of the cape.

 

[Fatmanonice]

They should just be considered one in the same. This whole issue annoys me for the same reason that the discovery of IDC annoyed me, it makes an already freakishly good character even better. Metaknight doesn't need anything else to help him out, thanks. :/

 

[Uffe]

What exactly is the difference between the EDC and the IDC?

I never bothered to figure out what the EDC is until now.

I believe EDC stands for Edge Dimensional Cape, which allows you to just fly past your opponent without taking a hit and it lasts longer than the regular down B.

Have you seen someone use IDC? It takes far more than a mistake to actually extend the length of the cape.

Correct. Nobody is going to do this by accident. You need to repeatedly tap the C-stick upward, correct?

 

[.AC.]

this is just some technicalities related to the name,both are banned,its just like doing d3´s "infinite " chaingrav unti 80% and then saying its ECG instead of ICG.

 

[swordgard]

edc is when you you use idc but just not so long
it's kinda like down b reappear but you make it a bit longer (my english sux lol) so that you can approach safe

IDC=extend using the cstick pressing up over and over if i remember correctly, its the one that can be done infinitely either way.


EDC= Pressing up then down then up then down then up then down while holding one side, cannot be extended indefinitly, works because everytime MK touches the ground he goes a bit farther.

 

[codfish92]

since you can't definitively say what the difference between EDC and IDC is, the only way to stop IDC is to ban both.

 

[codfish92]

nothing

10chars

 

[Tarmogoyf]

Have you seen someone use IDC? It takes far more than a mistake to actually extend the length of the cape.

IDC=extend using the cstick pressing up over and over if i remember correctly, its the one that can be done infinitely either way.


EDC= Pressing up then down then up then down then up then down while holding one side, cannot be extended indefinitly, works because everytime MK touches the ground he goes a bit farther.

See, it's different. You could do a small EDC by accident.

Banning EDC is unenforcable. How do you prove they did it? You can't have someone judging every game with a MK in it lol.

The cape in general should probably be banned, it causes so many problems as it is

Spoiler

you don't actually believe me, do you?

 

[Mewter]

Wait what is this.
Also, I thought EDC was just a short IDC?
I'd like a link to that thread though, Uffe, if it really is otherwise. I'd also like to really know if IDC'ing is easy for anyone (as in, an expert that can repeat it over and over).

 

[.Marik]

RDK needs to get up in this thread.

Word.

 

[Uffe]

Wait what is this.
Also, I thought EDC was just a short IDC?
I'd like a link to that thread though, Uffe, if it really is otherwise. I'd also like to really know if IDC'ing is easy for anyone (as in, an expert that can repeat it over and over).

I'm sorry, but what link are you talking about? I started to read about the EDC in the fourth and so-called final vote on banning Meta Knight. There is a video of M2K doing the EDC at a tournament. I don't know what EDC stands for, I'm only assuming the "E" stands for "edge", because M2K there clearly got behind his opponent(s) with it off the edge. As for IDC being easy, I can't say it is. Than again I've never went to practice it. My brother on the other hand really had no problem doing this and he doesn't use MK.

 

[swordgard]

I'm sorry, but what link are you talking about? I started to read about the EDC in the fourth and so-called final vote on banning Meta Knight. There is a video of M2K doing the EDC at a tournament. I don't know what EDC stands for, I'm only assuming the "E" stands for "edge", because M2K there clearly got behind his opponent(s) with it off the edge. As for IDC being easy, I can't say it is. Than again I've never went to practice it. My brother on the other hand really had no problem doing this and he doesn't use MK.

It was done the way i explained it, and its extended.


Short IDC is still banned because IDC has no limit to how much time you can do it, EDC does.

 

[AvaricePanda]

EDC is IDC.

Metaknight's Infinite Cape glitch is banned.

The glitch is any extention of the Infinite Dimensional Cape. So if you extend the cape at all, it's an illegal tactic. The glitch is banned.

The argument seems to be coming from, "How are you able to tell if they do the glitch, what if they tap once or twice and don't get punished and get away with it because it's hard to tell?" The answer to that: By the time you use it to the point where it's any more beneficial to you, it's obvious to tell that you used it.

The cape has 17 frames of start-up lag and 28 frames of ending lag, 54 if you do the attack at the end, IIRC. This means that it's quite punishable, on reaction (many aerials/jabs/grounded attacks have a hitbox that comes out around frame 3-7, and if the average human reaction time is 10 frames, then it's time enough to punish the attack). The camera angle moves along with the cape, and you can chase, follow, and punish. The MK can only obviously be on the ground, and with 28 frames of ending lag, that's ample time to punish.

There aren't many realistic uses for the EDC, because it can be punished solidly at the beginning and solidly at the end. The most common (and really only example) is at 1:07 of this match between M2K vs. Dojo, where M2K uses it to get back onto the stage. However, because of Dojo's (arguably poor) choice of punishment (a tornado probably wouldn't have caught him at the beginning, but might have at the ending), a standard dimensional cape would have sufficed in that instance. It was only one of multiple ways he could have gotten back onto the stage, and arguably wasn't the best way.

But assuming someone uses it in a situation like that, you're probably going to be able to punish them (if they cross you up, or retreat, or they're trying to get back to the stage) and by the time where it's really unpunishable, it's quite obvious that they did an EDC. The timing between just one tap of the dimensional cape and no tap, in my opinion, is noticable.

It's just like ruling with grab infinites and such. D3s standing grab infinite is banned in some regions. A D3 player can sneak off an extra grab here and there and say, "I forgot, last tourney didn't have those," or, "I thought I stepped a bit after the first grab," (if the opponent even challenges one extra grab), and the TO can't definitively decide unless he was there to witness it. Does that mean that TOs need to watch every match with D3, or we should ban D3s down-throw, or his grabs altogether, or the character altogether?

 

[Uffe]

It was done the way i explained it, and its extended.


Short IDC is still banned because IDC has no limit to how much time you can do it, EDC does.

Thanks for that bit of info, Ice Climbers man.

 

[Crystanium]

IDC = Infinite Dimensional Cape
EDC = Edge (?) Dimensional Cape

This is correct, correct? I entered this thread, trying to figure out what IDC and EDC were, and then I recalled what IDC was. from memory It would probably be best to use the actual terms, and then use initials after. It had me a bit confused.

 

[Tarmogoyf]

IDC = Infinite Dimensional Cape
EDC = Edge (?) Dimensional Cape

This is correct, correct? I entered this thread, trying to figure out what IDC and EDC were, and then I recalled what IDC was. from memory It would probably be best to use the actual terms, and then use initials after. It had me a bit confused.

EDC= extended Dimensional cape. Its just a longer (not infinite) DownB See above (Swordgard's post) on how to do it.

 

[CRASHiC]

E is extended, not edge, just to clear up this confusion. The confusion comes from Mew2King using it to recover.

 

[CaliburChamp]

N00bs are trying to ban EDC now? lol. Wow... that's not stalling. *facepalm*

 

[CRASHiC]

N00bs are trying to ban EDC now? lol. Wow... that's not stalling. *facepalm*

It is however allowing the user to transport himself to a safe range with invulnerability and invisibly to avoid visual ques beyond camera movement.

This thread is not saying weather or not EDC should be banned, its exploring weather or not it is possible to ban IDC and not EDC efficiently, given the problems stated in the first post.

 

[adumbrodeus]

N00bs are trying to ban EDC now? lol. Wow... that's not stalling. *facepalm*

*sigh*

The problem is that there is no way to differentiate the two in a way that is both discrete and enforceable.


Realistically, they're the same technique, EDC is just a specific application of the technique.


This sidesteps all the conversation of whether a move with the attributes of just EDC is bannable, there's no way to differentiate the technique from applications of the technique that itself has no way to have normal use differentiated from infinite stalling.

Already banned under the IDC ban.


(please note that by "no way", I mean "no way that is both discrete and enforceable")

 

[Muro]

*sigh*

Already banned under the IDC ban.

this

10this

 

[DanGR]

This is simple.

You cannot ban the EDC because it's unenforceable.
You can ban the IDC because it is enforceable.

Anyways, I really don't see the problem. The EDC just extends the dimensional cape. It can't be used to stall indefinitely- which is the only reason the IDC was banned. The EDC hasn't even been proven to break the game in other aspects either. It shouldn't be banned anyways, even if it was enforceable.

 

[adumbrodeus]

This is simple.

You cannot ban the EDC because it's unenforceable.
You can ban the IDC because it is enforceable.

Anyways, I really don't see the problem. The EDC just extends the dimensional cape. It can't be used to stall indefinitely- which is the only reason the IDC was banned. The EDC hasn't even been proven to break the game in other aspects either. It shouldn't be banned anyways, even if it was enforceable.

Actually, that's the ironic thing.

While you can't really ban IDC without banning EDC because any differences will not be discrete and enforceable, ultimately it's very difficult to catch EDC uses so the EDC ban becomes unenforcable.

That of course doesn't mean it should be banned (because we have to ban IDC for stalling, and that's discrete, enforceable, and warranted), it's just ironic that when applied to this particular use of IDC, the ban breaks down.

 

[Praxis]

Woah guys wait.

The writeup in the MK ban thread was originally intended for SBR, and in the SBR, we discussed EDC. We never posted what it was publically and didn't think to edit out the references before posting the article publically. LOL.

In retrospect, uh, Oops. XD

Basically, Fiction found out that you can IDC without using the C-stick, by quarter circle DIing from bottom right (or left) to top right rapidly. Press down-B and rapidly spin the analog stick from top right (or left) to bottom right (or left) and back. We called IDCing without the C-stick EDC, Extended Dimensional Cape.

It's a one way IDC that cannot be used to stall and cannot be turned around since you have to be moving.

It's differentiated from IDC in that IDC uses the C-stick.

From a technical game perspective it's the same concept, but in practice, you input them differently, and one (IDC, with C-stick) can be used to stall and is thus bannable, while the other (EDC) does not use the C-stick and cannot be used to stall and thus in theory should not be banned, but probably is banned under the "IDC" banner.


Make sense?

EDIT:

since you can't definitively say what the difference between EDC and IDC is, the only way to stop IDC is to ban both.

Yes you can. IDC uses the C-stick. A small amount of EDC is often done accidentally by players if they simply rotate the control stick during the IDC. It's hard to differentiate between a small amount and a large amount, deliberate or accidental.

Granted, using IDC to cover a small difference and EDC to cover a small distance look identical in a replay because, by game mechanics, it's the same thing. But looking at the player's controller shows a clear difference, and if the player didn't use IDC to stall, then the question of whether they used IDC or EDC doesn't matter.


Fact is, if you use EDC, you'll probably be accused of using IDC since they're considered one and the same by TOs currently.

Other fact is, if you didn't stall, using it is probably not gonna get you DQ'd, no one ever enforces it.

EDC probably shouldn't be banned.
*shrug*


EDIT2: Oh Swordgard explained it already.

OP should edit either my post or Swordgard's in to it so people know.

 

[PK-ow!]

So then don't you have to ban Dimensional Cape?

I mean, in some sense, it is definite enough to say "Don't click the C-stick while Meta is in the Dimensional Cape", but mechanically, the 'extension' is something that happens even when Caping into the ground "normally" (i.e. with the control stick). It's just that it happens once.

What about going sideways? Wouldn't a small rocking of the control stick - even unintentional - extend the cape just one, two clicks?
EDIT: By sideways, I meant as contrasted with beginningvia a vertical movement.


I'm basically asking what causes EDC, but I do know vague things about it, and I'm assured enough these questions aren't pointless to ask them.