Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

I bet some people wish the 3/5th's law was still in effect.

That way they wouldnt turn on the tv and see OBAMAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAA!

 

[Blistering Speed]

Lol, I've read virtually this entire thread and I don't regret a single minute of it. Dogy's the man.

Anyway, I'm away from my GC atm to start trying it, but it occured to me, why does no-one SH B Air>PWL?

 

[Dogysamich]

Oof, you read through this entire thread? That's dedication to the game. I dont think I'd read back through this. XD

If you're asking why people dont SH B.air -> PWL in just the sense of SHBAWD, people do. I personally dont cause well, im lazy although im using it more now.

if you're literally asking why people dont PWL after B.air, then i know for me personally that stuff is hard. I havent/dont practice it enough. PWL is hard for me period. I cant even ****ing PWL on platforms without real effort, let alone on the **** ground.

Not saying it cant be done, and not saying dont do it. Cause if you can, more power to you; that **** would be amazing. Me? -shakes head- na.

 

[Desh]

lol my docs been all about pwl ever since i talked to dogy a while ago,
the timing for doc is a lot easier than other chars =/

 

[St. Viers]

^^agreed. PWL w/ doc isn't that hard (I'm assuming it stands for perfect waveland, right?

The problem is people don't really how much time they have to actually b-air and then WD, so they WD too early...? Meh

 

[otg]

Using the IDA combined with a WD Doc can travel super fast or retreat/fake out someone depending on which way you WD. I've been trying to do in conjunction with jabs, ftilt and nair predominantly, but if there was someway to pivot the WD so you could Bair and potentially proceed to WL and **** face.

Step it up doc mains.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

wtf is an IDA?

 

[Vulcan55]

something Down-air?
Instant Down Air?
maybe?
idk

 

[otg]

Initial Dash animation? I thought that was what it was called. It's the initial dash... white poof of smoke... the DD kind?

OOOO **** that is it. You can just DD and WD back with a bair.... but I already do that anyway lol.

But yeah, back to IDA. You can probably vary the distance by choosing when to WD while the initial dash starts off, it lasts for a half a second or so, but it's a good spacing trick and is really the key to tech chasing with Doc.

Doc's dash and DD game is just not that great in comparison to the Top Tiers/High Tiers. Icies, Luigi and m2 almost entirely rely on their WD for mobility, and Doc's is pretty god**** good, so why don't we dot he same thing?

 

[Gea]

Because when it comes down to it, WDing for mobility far away is replaced by regular movement upclose for the most part. While not enough people use the push of the dash to get longer WDs, its rare you'll miss a techchase without it.

I just think of it like this. NEVER STOP MOVING. Pressure is good.

 

[Dogysamich]

Lets see.

Movement does not equal pressure. It just equals movement. Nobody is forced to take any kind of action because you're moving.

Wavedashing for dash dancing, which in theory sounds like a good idea, realisitcally isnt. You have to realize that everytime you wavedash, you're committing to a jump animation, a land animation, and any fluff you have in the middle. So everytime you wavedash, you're committing like.... 9+ frames to movement. That's not so much of a problem as long as you stay out of your opponent's zones as you do this, but if you think constantly doing this in somebody's zone is a great idea, it's not. It never has been, and it never will be. It's same as the concept I have as Doc's wavedashing being like a 3s Shoto dash, you dont see them just going in and out ALL the time, because there's a certain amount of time you have to commit to it, and if you get called on it, you can get punished.

In more interesting news, I'm keeping up my streak of not doing guides. Heck yes.

Now im gunna continue to watch Hawaii Smash try to get through DKC2.
It's pretty comical.

 

[KirbyKaze]

Hurry up and do your 3/5ths of a character matchup or whatever you do on this strange board.

All this green makes me think of green substances.

Like Mint Oreos.

That **** is so cash.

 

[Dogysamich]

Well, day 1 of "Im going to start on the character guide again." And guess what? Not a **** thing. Didnt even open MS Word.

And I'm going on record and saying im probably not going to do anything 2morrow. I mean, my day will pretty much be clear, and i'll probably procrastinate; but I'm going to say the chances of me putting in any work on this guide are inversely proportional to the chances of me going to my friend's house to play RE5. I wanna hop back on Co-op Mercenary Mode. We unlocked all the stages when I went over there monday, and we had JUST unlocked Jill in her Battlesuit.

....BSAA Jill is my homegirl, I can only imagine Battlesuit Jill being kooler (or a different kind of fun).

"RUN JILLY BEAN! THE COCKROACH DONT GIVE 2 ****S ABOUT YOUR FLASHBANGS!"

 

[HiIH]

So.... why is Dogy a mod? <.<

Just kiddin, but when I'm chaingrabbing spacies, and hit 50, is it better to utilt>regrab or do something outta uair/nair (or does it depend on DI) etc etc

 

[Dogysamich]

So.... why is Dogy a mod? <.<

[beastmode]SEE, IF YOU AND FAILBANY WOULDNT DROP OFF THE FACE OF THE F**KING EARTH, YOU WOULD KNOW THAT I'VE BEEN A MOD FOR A WHILE NOW. INFACT WHEN I STARTED I ACTUALLY DIDNT EVEN MOD THE DOC BOARDS. NOW I MOD ALL OF THE CHARACTERS. SO DONT THINK YOU CAN RUN BACK TO YOUR LINK FRIENDS AND SAVE YOURSELF FROM THE VERBAL BEATDOWN THAT YOU'VE GOT COMING. YOU KNOW GOOD AND D**N WELL THAT YOU GET ONLINE LIKE ONCE A YEAR AND SO YOU MISS ANYTHING AND EVERYTHING THAT IS REMOTELY RELEVANT TO THE INTERNETS.[/beastmode]

___

So um...... yeah. I've been ****in around with ness, finding out a buncha kool ****. Finding specific percents for ****. I actually found uses for tilts and ****. Then it kinda hit me.

"Maybe I outta do this **** for doc."

So yeah. That's my goal for today.

___

And as for the character guide, im probably going to axe that and finish my general fighting game guide first. I think that'd help people a ****ton more than a character matchup guide. Cause realistically if somebody absolutely needs to know how to fight a character, they can either ask here or they can go look up the info.

And realistically, if it's some "odd" character, chances are either it's already been talked about anyway, or NOBODY knows anything about it.

___

And btw, if anybody REALLY knows how to fight a Luigi, let me know. Cause that's the one matchup I havent played in ages, like since I "got smart", so I have absolutely no clue wtf to do.

___

And now im going back to watching vids.

And goodbye

 

[Smooth Criminal]

>_>

Pill, pill, pill

Grab

KOBE

I think that's how you fight Luigi. Oh, wait. Most of his attacks can safely eat through your pills. >__>

Smooth Criminal

 

[eighteenspikes]

So.... why is Dogy a mod? <.<

Just kiddin, but when I'm chaingrabbing spacies, and hit 50, is it better to utilt>regrab or do something outta uair/nair (or does it depend on DI) etc etc

At 50, you can either do an upair or upsmash after the uthrow if you think they will change their DI after the hit. An upair leads to an fsmash, and an usmash leads to a fair, but only if they change their DI. If they DI hard away the entire time, you can NOT follow them up with anything.

If you suspect they will continue DI'ing away from you, you can do WD into fsmash and that is guaranteed at 50, with the added bonus of them possibly DI'ing the wrong way

 

[Dogysamich]

Just kiddin, but when I'm chaingrabbing spacies, and hit 50, is it better to utilt>regrab or do something outta uair/nair (or does it depend on DI) etc etc

At 50, you can either do an upair or upsmash after the uthrow if you think they will change their DI after the hit. An upair leads to an fsmash, and an usmash leads to a fair, but only if they change their DI. If they DI hard away the entire time, you can NOT follow them up with anything.

If you suspect they will continue DI'ing away from you, you can do WD into fsmash and that is guaranteed at 50, with the added bonus of them possibly DI'ing the wrong way

Oh i didnt catch that, I was too busy yelling at you to do anything.

Actually, u.air -> d.smash catches full away DI. All day every day.

And you can actually get u.smash -> f.air to land at any %, but it's a weird trick. You have to u.smash like RIGHT when they're about to hit the ground. Not when they can tech, but they cant be above your head. (I'll look around to see if I have a vid of it).

 

[elvenarrow3000]

So basically get the ground hit?

 

[Dogysamich]

basically, but it's before they can tech.

I still say it's best to u.air -> d.smash or u.air -> f.smash.

u.smash -> f.air is the kinda thing you do to hurt somebody's morale. XD

 

[Desh]

pill a lot against luigi
dthrow fair
bthrow >edge gaurd.

its a really really easy match up if you play to win lol

but if you fool around too much on the stage then its annoying.
-.-
dont try to link things together from a throw at low %'s,
you just get nair'd.

but in terms of how to win,
pill, move a lot, dthrow fair, and edge gaurd.
thats all you need.

 

[KirbyKaze]

desh l2 matchups plz

 

[Blistering Speed]

Wow, thanks for the responses, very helpful. With that in mind, here's a few things I've been wondering about with Doc if anybody could answer.

1. Does D Tilt have a use? I use it very occasionaly at higher percentages to mess up DI, but is there anything past that?
2. Is dash attack better for anything then a mixup? I realise it has punishable cooldown but everytime I hit it seems to get the perfect trajectory to punish HARD.
3. Has edge cancel aerials been utilised to any purposeful extent with Doc?
4. This might sound a general question but I'm having trouble simply comboing with Doc on some characters. I know this is a universal problem against, like Samus and Jigglypuff, but I myself feel like my Doc is playing freaking Barwl against a lot of characters that other people don't seem to have trouble stringing, like the Marios, Luigi, Mewtwo, YL etc. Is this something that will simply fix itself with time or is there stuff you would recommend consciously implementing?

 

[Dogysamich]

Wow, thanks for the responses, very helpful. With that in mind, here's a few things I've been wondering about with Doc if anybody could answer.

1. Does D Tilt have a use? I use it very occasionaly at higher percentages to mess up DI, but is there anything past that?
2. Is dash attack better for anything then a mixup? I realise it has punishable cooldown but everytime I hit it seems to get the perfect trajectory to punish HARD.
3. Has edge cancel aerials been utilised to any purposeful extent with Doc?
4. This might sound a general question but I'm having trouble simply comboing with Doc on some characters. I know this is a universal problem against, like Samus and Jigglypuff, but I myself feel like my Doc is playing freaking Barwl against a lot of characters that other people don't seem to have trouble stringing, like the Marios, Luigi, Mewtwo, YL etc. Is this something that will simply fix itself with time or is there stuff you would recommend consciously implementing?

1. Technically speaking, yes. Like, if you ask anybody (Hell if you ask me irl), they're going to tell you no, but technically speaking d.tilt does have some uses. The main thing about it is that it's 2 frames faster than a standard grab, and it sends people behind you. Yeah it has bad ****ty knockback, but it's 2 frames faster than a grab.

For specific times to use it, CC d.tilt is one. Anytime you need to beat out a grab is another one (cause again, it's 2 frames faster than standard grabs). If you want to be real grimy, you could use it in any situation where you'd looking to duck something (Read: if and when you're trying to duck ganon's grab, lol.

Cause if you didnt know, there's a certain range and time where doc can duck ganon's grab. You cant be near his elbow, and you have to duck slighty before it happens (because doc, along with mario and i think luigi, actually changes their duck height as they look left and right. Dumb concept, but if you want dumb ducking concepts, look up White Len from Melty Blood Act Cadenza. XD)

2. It's not even good for a mixup, really. It's ok for tech chasing (which will lead into combos), and it's ok for continuing some combos, but it's not great as a mixup. Mike G threw the idea at me of spacing it vs falco (this would actually apply to quite a few characters, but we were talkin about falco specifically). It's not great, but dont let that stop you from using it.

3. yeah, about the same as every other character. And before you think about it, no you cant edge cancel pills. There are no way to cancel pills.

IM GOING TO SAY THIS ONE MORE TIME FOR THE RAINY DAY $MAC COMES BACK. N**GA THERE IS NO WAY TO CANCEL PILLS IN ANY SHAPE FORM OR FASION. NOW QUIT BEING SAD AND PICK UP THE STICKS

4. You cant really combo samus and jiggs. Not even u.air juggle. You can do Brawl Combos (read: Consecutive good reads that dont combo by definition), but as far as I know, you cant really combo them persay (Kinda hard to test this since training mode is ******** in melee).
The other characters you listed, it's all about the know-how, and what you're trying to actually combo them with. Luigi you dont really want to try to combo to begin with (for the reason we keep saying, you're just asking to get n.aired), but everybody else, it's like, u.air juggles, d.air -> shenanigans, blahblahblah.
You'll get the hang of it over time. One thing you do need to realize, though, is that comboing a character doesnt always equal u.air juggles. Some people try to make it seem like that.

 

[Gea]

Movement can be a form of pressure. Hell, sometimes you don't HAVE to do anything against something that is creating pressure against you. Speeding up your game/movement is effectively upping your pressure. Learning to keep moving is a good thing. DON'T HATE DOGY. GO DO MORE PHANTOM HIT FAIRS.


Edit: Also Luigi is not that easy of a matchup for Doc, lol.

 

[Dogysamich]

Movement can be a form of pressure. Hell, sometimes you don't HAVE to do anything against something that is creating pressure against you. Speeding up your game/movement is effectively upping your pressure. Learning to keep moving is a good thing. DON'T HATE DOGY. GO DO MORE PHANTOM HIT FAIRS.


Edit: Also Luigi is not that easy of a matchup for Doc, lol.

*laughs*
Im actually curious as to where this will go, cause I know better.

I mean, The ganons just had a discussion about this

But if you think movement is pressure, especially 9+ frames of movement, im going to just step aside and let this happen.

 

[Vulcan55]

Movement is pressure.
If your opponent doesn't expect you to move.

 

[St. Viers]

No, moving while being able to act is pressure. Moving when they can't react is pressure. Moving to adjust spacing is kinda pressure.

Moving for the sake of moving is not pressure.

 

[Vulcan55]

Go ahead and quote my last post.

 

[otg]

9+ frames of lag is bad, but with proper spacing you can still punish effectively out of it. For me, I seem to miss tech chases with Doc by like a second, frankly I should stop grabbing and just Dsmashing instead because that would reach. Next time I play someone I'll see if this makes a difference.

 

[Vulcan55]

What is the trick to UAir juggling?
Is there a certain part of the UAir that sends the opponent more uppish? Is it a certain few frames?
What is the best way to follow up UAirs?
I can rarely get an FSmash in, but most of the time, they are too far away to do anything before they tech.

 

[Gea]

But if you think movement is pressure, especially 9+ frames of movement, im going to just step aside and let this happen.

I never said WDing around. If you're DDing you can pivot and have anything with no frames of lag if you have a sense of timing.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

So uh. Fastest wavedash is fourteen frames of lag. Dunno where you guys are getting nine.

I think it really depends on the character to determine how much pressure you're exerting during movement. Slower characters obviously won't pressure you much while dashdancing, whereas faster characters will exude more of a psychological presence.

 

[Desh]

What is the trick to UAir juggling?
Is there a certain part of the UAir that sends the opponent more uppish? Is it a certain few frames?
What is the best way to follow up UAirs?
I can rarely get an FSmash in, but most of the time, they are too far away to do anything before they tech.

The secret is that they probably shouldnt work >_>
normally if someone is good you wont get more than like , grab *ONE* or maybe 2 uairs, and a follow up,

wich could be a usmash/fsmash/dsmash, or grab i guess =p
but yeah uair juggles are odd.
it can happen but it seldom should.

bye. schooool -.-

 

[Dogysamich]

So uh. Fastest wavedash is fourteen frames of lag. Dunno where you guys are getting nine.

i pulled 9 off the top of my head because i know you have to go through a jump and a landing animation. Where do the extra 5 come from.

 

[KirbyKaze]

There's no landing animation it gets replaced by the landfallspecial (the poofy slide).

So 4 frames of jump startup + 10 frames of poofy slide = 14

 

[Dogysamich]

ooooooooooooooh.

..... well ****. That just makes me want to slip'n'slide even less.

cause alot of stuff can happen in 14 frames.

 

[Oracle]

Thanks kirbykaze. I was about to say that.

 

[Vulcan55]

What tournament dig dogy win?
I want to see the results thread if there is one.

 

[Shroomed]

do any of you actually go mario in tournament? jus curious

how bout vs shiek?