Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[ranmaru]

Nah. I always go Doc. LOL especially vs. a shiek. D:<

 

[Dogysamich]

So, here we are, 3 days after i said I was gunna start on that character guide again and....... not a **** thing. Part of it is because apparently movement is pressure now (lol), but you can gladly blame **** Hunter 5 for that.

Went over to my friends house a few times to play mercenary mode. B.S.A.A. Jill and Clubbin' Sheva all day, with the occasional S.T.A.R.S. Chris. Get *****!

___

Turned on melee a few minutes ago to mess around with some new ideas. Came up with a new edgeguard that I think will just be hilarious if it works.

Talkin to HMW (and sumo). Yayhuzz.

___

He says to bring up fox. I say dont stand next to him cause or moveset->shine. Atleast it's not that brawl nonsense where he has drill->moveset (lol).

But fox, anybody ever try spotdodge->u.tilt'ing his pressure? I thought about it the other day, but I dont get to try things very often (I've actually started writing down **** I want to try because i usually have to wait a week+).

 

[ranmaru]

Urm no, I'll try it against him later today. :]

 

[Dogysamich]

yeah try it and rate how much you get wrecked.

It sounds like a dumb idea that might work in my head, those usually dont work.

Not like my ridiculous ideas that shouldnt work. For some odd reason those tend to come out ok.

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah either way, I'd still get wrecked, though, so its a good time to try. (he is a really really good fox xDDD) [and it'll be harder for it to work on him since he is good rofl but its still a try]

I'll let you know if I get wrecked anyways. (I mean if I spotdodge and not even get a chance to up-tilt xD)

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

just run away from sheild pressure i guess

no need to try to challenge it

yea.....

im new to posting about doc lol

 

[Dogysamich]

i'm tellin ya man, just post and it will all come full-circle. There's a reason why this is a GENERAL discussion and not like

"OMG DOC METAGAME EVOLUTION ONLY THREAD"

just chiiiiiiill

 

[eighteenspikes]

speaking of doc metagame evolution, I was at a tourney on saturday and I wasn't feeling very slippery so I tested out an experimental new doc style. Literally all I did was walk and tilt, occasionally doing fullhop slowfalled backairs. I called it aunt jemima doc for how syrupy and slo-mo it was. Anyways ftilt and utilt are both AMAZING MOVES and basically all doc needs (occasionally dtilting as a finisher). I got 2nd seed in my pool and ended up getting 9th going aunt jemima all the way. I def could have placed as high as 5th or even gotten some money but aunt jemima does not work that well vs space pets and a falco took me out. but marth, sheik, and cfal get pooped on by it. thank me later.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

good job at your tournament eighteenspikes

ur legit

i seen u beat cosmo's marth in some vids (thats a beast marth)

 

[ranmaru]

*thanks 18spikes later*

I might try that. Haha Nice, Aunt jemima doc.

 

[Dogysamich]

Aunt Jemima. lol. I love it.

What all did you come up against with that? Cause it sounds like it would actually work on like... anything that's not marth.

 

[otg]

Aunt Jemima Doc eh? Good stuff, I like the walk around Ftilt/Utilt strategy because you are right they are his best moves on the ground. I feel like Doc's best moves in general are (not in order, who cares?): Ftilt/Utilt/Dair/Bair/Uair with a lil bit of Dsmash. Uair for combo breaker and the occasional juggle, the rest should be self explanatory.

As for spotdodge->utilt. I think any strategy that relies on spotdodging is not a good one. Spotdodging gets incredibly predictable and should be used sparingly. Doc's spotdodge is fast and good when used sparingly, but the biggest sign of a noob is spotdodging every approach. It's like, why spotdodge when you could just move? You are going to be vulnerable for a large part of the spotdodge anyway, so if you get called on it, say hello to a Fox charging usmash in your face, or Marth charging an fsmash at you, etc etc,.

 

[Dogysamich]

i was talkin about an option, not the norm.

And talking of spotdodges, ya know doc's is the same as sheiks, right?

That means that realistically we could all spotdodge like drephen. Now i'll be ****ed if I can figure out how that maa****er gets that **** to work. XD

 

[otg]

Well, as we all know from m2k, Drephen just gets consistently lucky all the time.

 

[Vulcan55]

Spotdodge > D Smash
Works all the time against people with no Doc experience. Especially if they try to grab you.
(at least in my experience)

Normally, though, If I spotdodge, I try to Jab afterwards...I think.
It's hard to tell what I do when I'm playing if I'm not actually playing or looking at a video. (Which I happen to have none of, yet I have the capability)

 

[Dogysamich]

You wanna talk about luck?

SHORYUKEN!!!

I so did not plan that.

 

[otg]

Dogysamich, advancing the metagame one day at a time.

 

[ranmaru]

Dogysamich, advancing the metagame one day at a time.

That should be a motivational.

 

[Dogysamich]

Dogysamich, advancing the metagame one day at a time.

That should be a motivational.

Cause no matter how I look at it, I cant even joke and act like I meant to do that.

__

I was looking for that b.air and missed timed it. Got scared and aborted the mission. Just so happens my eject button turned me into a projectile. XD

 

[eighteenspikes]

good job at your tournament eighteenspikes

ur legit

i seen u beat cosmo's marth in some vids (thats a beast marth)

thanks I'm trying to go to genesis, we should play some games there.

 

[anthony000]

Hey, this is my first post. Been on the boards for over a year now just learning and soaking up info on Doc. Just got 7th with him at a 40+ tourney at my school over the weekend. Ran into a Peach and had no idea what to do. I've read the matchup thread since and watched the few Doc v Peach vids there are, but all I ever see is Doc losing. How do you beat her?

 

[St. Viers]

Um, pills, spaced f-airs, and when they are on platforms above you, don't challenge them ^___^

 

[KirbyKaze]

Why is this board more interesting than the Sheik board?

*sigh*

edit: Dogysamich is surprisingly literate for a ******.

 

[eighteenspikes]

try to get under her and space a lot bairs and fairs are both good (if they are aggressive in approaching, try to trade hits with fair). look for dsmash openings. jab sets them up pretty well, also try late shffl uair -> jab on shields, it catches many peaches. but be careful that you dont accidentally CC her dsmash while trying to dsmash yourself. grabs are good cause you can usually uair out of it. be a lil adventurous in edgeguarding her because she is really vulnerable in her up b. just read the drop. also learn to turnip recover, its actually really easy. i do it in tournies allll the time and people are like o0o0o00o OMG ITS THE CAPE!!!!!!! but you just up b the turnip and you get hit towards the stage, simple as that :hunger: good luck

edit: ban either mute or FoD

 

[Dogysamich]

*saving everybody from a wall of text*
I could go into my theory on peach and the general how to fight her, but viers and 18s hit every you pretty much need to know.

If you need more of what to do
Here's everything (1)
That i've told peaches (2)
To do against Doc (3)
Basically just flip that around. (If you want me to explain it more, I'll gladly do it, but i really get the impression people hate seeing my walls of texts sometimes. XD

edit: ban either mute or FoD

I always ban mute city, then prac beat me on FoD. It was kinda funny cause I've NEVER thought twice about Peach and FoD, but the day before I read KirbyKaze saying in the sheik forums how he'll never let a peach have FoD. In my mind i was like "it cant be that bad".

Oof.

I think im going to finally go through with my mute city plan x and pick up jiggs just so i can let that stage fly vs jiggs/samus/peach.

But for peach, yeah. FoD vs Mute City.

You have to weight if you want to let them have a **** *** random as opposed to a CP that you have to go above and beyond to win on.

FoD is actually pretty bad to fight a peach on. Platforms **** you up, low platforms help her out, CONTRARY TO WHAT PEOPLE THINK THE CEILING IS HIGH AS **** (apparently its the 2nd highest in the neutrals? I dunno if there's truth to that but i'd believe it).

So yeah, you have to pick your poison when it comes to this.

I will tell you that you're perfectly fine in leaving Dreamland open. If peach wants to take you there so she can live longer, you create space and use more pills to make her regret that decision.

 

[HomeMadeWaffles]

thanks I'm trying to go to genesis, we should play some games there.

yea man definitely

and vs peach

once u grab peach at like 55% or something

u can to do uair combos lol

and u can abuse their float sometime, which is cool i guess

 

[Dogysamich]

62% is the first % you can hit her and she'll be in the knockover stun (that's if your u.air is perfectly fresh)
67% if it's stale.

Yes, i sat down a few days ago and figured out the % for every character when you can knock them over with an u.air (read: when you can actually COMBO u.airs against them if they DI wrong).

... Im not going to sit here and type them all out right now cause I'm lazy (BIG SURPRISE RIGHT), but know that in general, you want to wait till mid/late 60% before you start trying to u.air juggle.

Lowest range is obviously on pichu (since he's the lightest) at 49-54%. Highest is bowser 69-74%.

If you care about it beyond that, wait for me to stop being lazy. >.>

 

[KirbyKaze]

I always ban mute city, then prac beat me on FoD. It was kinda funny cause I've NEVER thought twice about Peach and FoD, but the day before I read KirbyKaze saying in the sheik forums how he'll never let a peach have FoD. In my mind i was like "it cant be that bad".

Oof.

I think im going to finally go through with my mute city plan x and pick up jiggs just so i can let that stage fly vs jiggs/samus/peach.

But for peach, yeah. FoD vs Mute City.

You have to weight if you want to let them have a **** *** random as opposed to a CP that you have to go above and beyond to win on.

FoD is actually pretty bad to fight a peach on. Platforms **** you up, low platforms help her out, CONTRARY TO WHAT PEOPLE THINK THE CEILING IS HIGH AS **** (apparently its the 2nd highest in the neutrals? I dunno if there's truth to that but i'd believe it).

So yeah, you have to pick your poison when it comes to this.

I will tell you that you're perfectly fine in leaving Dreamland open. If peach wants to take you there so she can live longer, you create space and use more pills to make her regret that decision.

I do not think it's that high. I think it is extremely high, and the blast zones are awkwardly far, but I think Battlefield ceiling is higher. But I don't know for sure, nor do I care. I would like to clarify though that what I think makes it gay is the stage as a whole is conducive to mess ups and platform gayness and that's really good for Peach (randomly getting D-smashed or comboed for a dumb percent because the stage decides it doesn't like how its platforms are arranged is not pretty). It's not good for camping either, which is most characters' ticket out of an otherwise messy matchup, because of how tiny it is and because it is often devoid of platforms.

tl;dr yeah, FoD is pretty good for Peach IMO.

edit: I looked to Kirbstir's Peach for inspiration on how to deal with Mario. It seemed to be "Ignore turnips, float, back air, d-smash sometimes but not as much as you might think, do other moves (fair / nair) when necessary; don't get faired / f-smashed". I don't see how Doc would be any different only he doesn't have a surprisingly long F-smash to toss at you to keep you at bay, and if he procures a grab he can do better stuff. Beyond that, I don't think the matchup is any different, and I don't see how floating around and slowly moving towards him with back air (and sometimes other stuff) wouldn't work really well for Peach. Then again, Doc's pills are annoying and can magically get you comboed into Fair so who knows.

 

[Shroomed]

i combo peaches earlier than 60+ %

around 40% dthrow to upairs work fine =)

 

[Dogysamich]

Well, here's rare footage of Dogysamich not being lazy.

___

So what I have here is a list of when you can knock somebody over with an u.air. The point of this is that when you hit somebody in this range, if you can and do follow up in a timely manner (with another u.air, i dunno what else), it will actually combo.

In short, this came about because I got tired of people lying to me about percents that you can start to combo people over the years. I mean for christs sake, people used to tell me you can really start to u.air juggle Peach at like, 30%. And I always wondered why I got n.aired out of it by good peaches. It's because you cant. XD

___
Anyway.

The first number is the first percent you can hit somebody and knock them over with a perfectly FRESH u.air. The last number is the last number is the percent you can knock somebody over with a completely STALE u.air

HOLY EDIT I FORGOT TO MENTION THAT THE STALE NUMBERS ARE BALLPARKS. I TESTED 90% OF THEM, BUT FOR THE MOST PART I JUST ADDED 5 AND ROLLED WITH IT
Fox 59-64
Falco 61-66
Marth 60-65
Sheik/Zelda 62-67 (they're both the same weight, believe it or not)
Capfal 66-71
Peach 62-67
ICs 60-68 *Note: 2nd IC is heavier than the first, by how much I dunno and dont care*
Samus 68-73
Jiggs 50-55
Dr Mario 64-69
DK 69-74
Ganon 68-73
Luigi 64-69
Mario 64-69
Bowser 69-74
Yoshi 67-72
Young Link 60-65
Link 67-71
Kirby 54-59
Ness 62-67
Pichu 49-54
Pikachu 58-63
Mewtwo 59-63
Game&Watch 50-55
Roy 60-65

So the rest of it is figuring out how to get people into those %s easily. Here's where i'll add something else.

__

D.air -> U.air (My ******* actually forgot to check this seperately, so I'll have to do that another time).

D.air -> U.air combos if you do the u.air in a timely manner.

D.air (7 hits) -> u.air = 23+% (23 = stalest d.air + u.air)
D.air (8.hits) -> u.air = 34+%

__

you do the math/strat planning from there.

 

[anthony000]

Wow, thank you all for your help. I'm going to try some of that out here soon. That Peach lives across campus so I don't know how soon, but I'll keep all this in mind.

 

[otg]

Good **** dogy. This means that with a Dair->uair we can start the uair juggling even earlier!

WHO WANTS TO JIGGLE!

 

[ranmaru]

Yay Dair To Uair! :] I Wants To Jiggle!

 

[Dogysamich]

Good **** dogy. This means that with a Dair->uair we can start the uair juggling even earlier!

WHO WANTS TO JIGGLE!

realistically, no you cant unless somebody doesnt DI it right. I was trying it on alpha cause he came over today (read: somebody i consider very intelligent) and he just DI'd the d.air up.

So, dont rely on it. Wheel of Fortune probably works. And D.air->u.air probably works fine if osmebody will di it down or something.

 

[Vulcan55]

What did you do to your name?
D:

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Yeah, why does everyone have weird colors? And why is Dogy Mic?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

thats actually the real Mic, don't be fooled.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

@_@ Wha...?

 

[otg]

Added Dogy's uair business to the OP.

 

[ranmaru]

Yeah, why does everyone have weird colors? And why is Dogy Mic?

Awww man, I thought something cool happened to me. :[