Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[#HBC | Mac]

so i have no idea how to use pills efficiently, I can never approach with pills or even pill camp. I'm just terrible at using them. A little help?

 

[KirbyKaze]

you're doing too many or too few.

most docs forget they can sh pills to approach.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Wait... so you could use C-sticks for Control Sticks too? @_@

 

[SpruceTengu]

Its best to just keep spacing in mind the entire time you're pilling; the "too many" or "too few" should be left up to your partner, when they get fed the hell up and decide to rush in and leave an opening, or when they make a dumb mistake and get hit by a pill, leaving an opening. There are also other random opportunities to throw pills in, like anytime you're going for a quick escape yourself, or when pursuing. Pills are just a great thing to throw out whenever you have the time, but just remember, WHENEVER YOU HAVE THE TIME. People can hit through pills with various attacks, some attacks can straight up cancel a pill and then hit you through it, so you can't go overboard..

Timing aside, a good way to practice with the movement is to have some momentum every time you leave the ground to pill. In my opinion, wavedashing is the bestway to do this, with of course some DI in the process. Definitely learn to FJ-->pill-->DJ-->pill and FJ-->pill-->waveland in either direction,both of these have tremendously helped my pillgame. You'll probably overuse them at the beginning, but at the very least they'll keep you moving.

 

[HiIH]

Something that can be helpful is fullhopping a pill into a waveland... back OR forward. Especially against a Marth, since some will try to either Fsmash, tilt, or jab the pill, unless they tip it, the pill will stop the swing (usually), and then you're free to attempt to Jab, grab, or whatever.

NOTE:This SHOULDN'T WORK MUCH. Marth can just send an aerial through it, or if he see's it coming CAN GRAB YOU (unless he Fsmashed I think)...

Also, here's what Dogy has to say about pills....

I don't know how to play doc. I just throw pills. Lots and lots of pills.

\

No lies. That's what he tells us.

 

[Dogysamich]

that's because people like you dont help me. Where the **** are those vids? YEAH THAT'S RIGHT.

__

Anyway.

POWERPILLS!

Contrary to what people say, you need ALL KINDS OF PILLS. Ground pills, SH pills, FH pills, Jump In pills, Jump Out pills, Fade In pills, Fade out pills, waveland pills, DJ pills, pills that DJ into Aerial. 400 PILLS.

most important thing about pills is SPACING. Understand there's really only a too close when you're SPACING. If you do thing right you can pill approach because of your SPACING. You'll then be able to wreck *****es because of your SPACING. You'll get amazing combos because of your pill SPACING. But then you'll get ***** because YOU ****ED UP YOUR SPACING.

Want to keep somebody on the ground? Pill like This champion right here AIIIIIIIIIIIR CONTROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

POWERPILLS!

______

But seriously, that vid is a good example of alot of things in pills. There are a few opinions you can have about it. When I initially looked at it (and the first match, he pretty much did the same thing), i thought "Well, that's exactly what happens when you ONLY pill like that", but after watching more of the second vid, i realized "Hey, this ****er cant jump in at all." Now granted, this wont work on every character, it's actually still very good for deterring people from jumping around so much. (actually, it doesnt even work on the character in the vid, im guessing homeboy over there was smart enough to know that if he came through the pills in the air he'd get picked off)

Names have been kept anonomoys to protect the innocent. >.>

 

[eighteenspikes]

Pills didn't really work well for him there, half the time Peach just dash attacked under them... and it worked I'm not sure what I would even call good usage of pills... I don't really ever concentrate on them or give special thought to using them more/less often. I think because their trajectory/usage is so specific, if you concentrate too much on using pills, it limits your approach variety and ability to counter your opponent's approach.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

yea I watched that vid yesterday and it reminded me how much I sucked with pills. HMW seemed very calculated with his pill placement. anyways I know how to do all the pill trixies, I just don't know when. Sometimes I would make an effort to pill more and I would get punished, usually by people running in under my pills, kind of like what 18spikes said shinobi was doing to HMW. FH pill waveland in never gets me anywhere.

Kaze is right about one thing, i almost never SH pill, I don't really see much of the benefit, the pill always seems to have too much cool down lag to do anything out of it. But I guess I will give it another try.

Does anyone ever purposely pill up close and personal? like almost to the extent where doc's hand throwing the pill is touching the oppontent?

edit: after watching that vid again, I found some stuff I want to try.

 

[St. Viers]

^^about people sunning under your pills--that means that you are spacing wrong, either because you messed up, or because you shouldn't have been using pills at that time.

A couple things I've noticed--people need to really watch spacing before full-hopping pills while jumping towards the person--most of the time, you SHOULD get punished for that, unless they are pretty far away. NAM forward in many cases, or SHing pills forward is safer.

18spikes--the thing is, while they are specific, there are so many ways to minutely change it, depending on when you release them, that there is actually a lot of variety, even when doing the same basic thing.

Also, there is NO reason to pill that close--the person's stun will be short enough to make you wish you weren't born.

 

[SpruceTengu]

that's because people like you dont help me. Where the **** are those vids? YEAH THAT'S RIGHT.

__

Anyway.

POWERPILLS!

Contrary to what people say, you need ALL KINDS OF PILLS. Ground pills, SH pills, FH pills, Jump In pills, Jump Out pills, Fade In pills, Fade out pills, waveland pills, DJ pills, pills that DJ into Aerial. 400 PILLS.

most important thing about pills is SPACING. Understand there's really only a too close when you're SPACING. If you do thing right you can pill approach because of your SPACING. You'll then be able to wreck *****es because of your SPACING. You'll get amazing combos because of your pill SPACING. But then you'll get ***** because YOU ****ED UP YOUR SPACING.

Want to keep somebody on the ground? Pill like This champion right here AIIIIIIIIIIIR CONTROOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOL

POWERPILLS!

______

But seriously, that vid is a good example of alot of things in pills. There are a few opinions you can have about it. When I initially looked at it (and the first match, he pretty much did the same thing), i thought "Well, that's exactly what happens when you ONLY pill like that", but after watching more of the second vid, i realized "Hey, this ****er cant jump in at all." Now granted, this wont work on every character, it's actually still very good for deterring people from jumping around so much. (actually, it doesnt even work on the character in the vid, im guessing homeboy over there was smart enough to know that if he came through the pills in the air he'd get picked off)

Names have been kept anonomoys to protect the innocent. >.>

I legitimately heard the voice from "powerthirst" throughout that entire post. It made me lawl.

 

[Dogysamich]

Pills didn't really work well for him there, half the time Peach just dash attacked under them... and it worked I'm not sure what I would even call good usage of pills... I don't really ever concentrate on them or give special thought to using them more/less often. I think because their trajectory/usage is so specific, if you concentrate too much on using pills, it limits your approach variety and ability to counter your opponent's approach.

That's the point i was making.

For the whole 2 games, all HMW did was FH pills, and it actually served its purpose, keeping peach out of the air. Now, if you think that's a BAD thing, we need to talk, cause keeping peach out of the air is great. What happened afterwards is a completely different story.

__

I dont know about you, but i'd rather contend with peach's dashattack, jabs, and grabs and all that rather than her completely safe FC game.

__

As for him "spacing wrong", it's not specifically that he spaced wrong, it's more of he wasnt stopping shinobi from running in. Again, HMW actually didnt do too much wrong with the pills.

__

And actually viers, you can pill close, you just have to be moving out. Preferably FHing, but just moving out.

 

[ranmaru]

Lawl, I hope this doesn't become a "Let's see what everybody looks like!" shpeal. We know this thread would go to ****. : P

Here is me. I want to gro a fro.

Just saw Homeboy's Vid, and I saw he did greatly. I have realized I haven't pilled that much in a while, because I pill twice and try to come in and it just doesn't seem to work (well it locks peach in shield) so I try a different approach. I also try to sh pill less, because I can't do much after it and then get punished. As Roman also said, I feel as though I don't know what I'm doing, but then again my friends say I do, I just do random things while trying to do the right thing. Then another problem I have is trying to grab peach, and missing. Then I get punishment right there. I just try thinking, but lol its hard to think and play at the same time.

Also, I read up on doc guides, his matchups, and I don't feel smarter at all. Should I not read so much and try to keep basic simple notes to remember instead of bigger things I cannot chew?

 

[otg]

Pills are essentially a way to extend Doc's range, creating a wall around yourself. I actually don't like the idea of FHpill->DJ pill because losing your second jump is just... bad news.

 

[Stos]

FJ Pill to waveland works best for me for some reason.

ALSO Dogy your fro aint nothing compared to my future hair, im growing DREADS AND IM ****ING Filipino.

So im gonna be Blazian. =D

 

[Dogysamich]

Also, I read up on doc guides, his matchups, and I don't feel smarter at all. Should I not read so much and try to keep basic simple notes to remember instead of bigger things I cannot chew?

na, it's because (NO OFFENSE $MAC DONT TASE ME BRO) the matchup guides really dont have anything. They tell you pretty much what you already know, but they dont tell you HOW to handle said situations.

 

[Bullet Bill]

EDIT!!!- pic not working for some reason :/ well if you can see it thats me XD

 

[KirbyKaze]

I can't see the pic.

Failure.

 

[ranmaru]

My pic dissapeared too. xD

@ Dogy: Oh, I see. So I guess the only way is to ask you guys questions of what you know and try it out when I play, huh?

 

[Dogysamich]

you could ... ask? XD

Cause i mean, im not going to tell you like, the best way to beat a fox or anything, but im pretty sure i could do more than "If you and fox are at the same skill level, you're going to have to work twice as hard to keep up. Beware of his upsmash."

 

[ranmaru]

XD lol. Ok, besides his upsmash, what? xD

Lets talk about fox now! I have been trying to play a really good fox, and I feel as though there is nothing I can do. I nair alot, but is it beat out by his sexy kick? HE IS SUPAH FAST OH NOES D:

 

[#HBC | Mac]

i'll prolly steer the conversation back to pills after I play good people again, just a forewarning.

 

[ranmaru]

There's no problem with that, I like using pills. :3 (and talking about them)

 

[eighteenspikes]

EDIT!!!- pic not working for some reason :/ well if you can see it thats me XD

Your host doesn't allow direct linking. However, mine does!!

somehow re-uploading this on my host feels a little creepy...

 

[Bullet Bill]

Your host doesn't allow direct linking. However, mine does!!

somehow re-uploading this on my host feels a little creepy...

Cheers Mr spikes. Anyone else think I look a little like Doctor mario?

Should prob say something on topic.

Dogy- I agree with you when you say you have to space pills but refering to HMW's game against pink shinobi I thought he could have followed up on some of those pills instead of just spamming. It's the right way to do it though. Even for chars like fox or sheik you can get aways with full jump pilling a lot of the time if you waveland back. Nice pic btw

 

[otg]

Ok, so I just had a sexy ****ing idea especially since we've been discussing pill usage lately. Pills are very versatile in edgeguarding certain characters, in particular Marth/Falcon/Ganon as they will probably be coming in low a majority of the time.

My idea is to throw pills against the lip of stages so they bounce downward and hit SUPER low. You can do this by running off the level and shooting a reverse pill into the lip, or even by grabbing the ledge, jump off throw a pill and Up B back. It's definitely situational, but pills stay out for awhile and this could disrupt someones recovery allowing you an easy cape/bair/edgehog.

Anyone follow me?

 

[Stos]

Ok, so I just had a sexy ****ing idea especially since we've been discussing pill usage lately. Pills are very versatile in edgeguarding certain characters, in particular Marth/Falcon/Ganon as they will probably be coming in low a majority of the time.

My idea is to throw pills against the lip of stages so they bounce downward and hit SUPER low. You can do this by running off the level and shooting a reverse pill into the lip, or even by grabbing the ledge, jump off throw a pill and Up B back. It's definitely situational, but pills stay out for awhile and this could disrupt someones recovery allowing you an easy cape/bair/edgehog.

Anyone follow me?

Yessir.
though i think using pills like this will help them get back..
Pills are used to take away second jumps and used when your opponent is far from the stage.
If the pills are close to the stage then your basically helping your enemy.
unless you plan to like reverse pill (towards the wall) hits opponent *uses edge for the invin. frames* opponent up b and lands right next to the edge..and from there you can like fair, wavedash in to like fsmash, grab and so on.

 

[ranmaru]

Funnily enough, pills can pill, haha! For example, I was about to be edgeguarded by a Falcon and killed, but I pilled as I came back and it made him drop and I made it back and he died. xD

Another instance is with a fox, but on Yoshi's Story. Was about to die, landed on cloud, haha, he was saved! BAD FOR ME. I pilled him (as he was still standing on the cloud) and killed him. The pill does miraculous things.

 

[Dogysamich]

Ok, so I just had a sexy ****ing idea especially since we've been discussing pill usage lately. Pills are very versatile in edgeguarding certain characters, in particular Marth/Falcon/Ganon as they will probably be coming in low a majority of the time.

My idea is to throw pills against the lip of stages so they bounce downward and hit SUPER low. You can do this by running off the level and shooting a reverse pill into the lip, or even by grabbing the ledge, jump off throw a pill and Up B back. It's definitely situational, but pills stay out for awhile and this could disrupt someones recovery allowing you an easy cape/bair/edgehog.

Anyone follow me?

$mac's trick. He talked about this a while ago, has a clip or two of it in his combo vid.

I still think this is one of the craziest ideas a doc player could have, but that's just me. >.>

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Why does everyone have this obsession with beating out other peoples' moves? Unless you're like... Marth or something, there's no character that can consistently eat through other peoples' attacks.

 

[otg]

Is that in reference to the pill trick? I wasn't implying that, maybe just disturb recoveries and force them into a more difficult situation. I"m going to try it out later.

 

[elvenarrow3000]

No, to the nair against Fox's nair.

 

[ranmaru]

Oh, I was wondering since Fox was so fast, if it wasn't smart for me to nair so much agaisnt his, not that I want to beat it out.

Although I did ask if fox's nair beat out doc's nair, but by asking that I did not mean I wanted to beat Fox's nair with Doc's nair. Just to know if doc's nair should be used less if it was true.

Sorry if I can be confusing. ^^;

 

[HiIH]

Let's have a discussion about stuff like FJ Dair to Uair and such. Seriously, I had no idea about that **** until I played with Dogy a month or two ago.

ALSO SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT THE VIDS, THEY'VE BEEN STEADILY GOIN UP!

 

[Sago]

dair to up air is cute but its way to hyped

 

[Bullet Bill]

I think the pill-bounce-off-side-of-stage thing is interesting but unfortunately I have to be boring and say that's bair territory. What you can do however is pill an UpB charging fox/falco. This isn't easy though and if you're doing it onstage you have to almost read where they will upB cos the pill takes a while to hit. I'm gonna try it out anyway since it could be quite good as capes can be manouvered around.

 

[SpruceTengu]

Let's have a discussion about stuff like FJ Dair to Uair and such. Seriously, I had no idea about that **** until I played with Dogy a month or two ago.

ALSO SHUT THE **** UP ABOUT THE VIDS, THEY'VE BEEN STEADILY GOIN UP!

Sorry if I missed them somewhere, but where can I find these? =D

 

[elvenarrow3000]

Oh, I was wondering since Fox was so fast, if it wasn't smart for me to nair so much agaisnt his, not that I want to beat it out.

Although I did ask if fox's nair beat out doc's nair, but by asking that I did not mean I wanted to beat Fox's nair with Doc's nair. Just to know if doc's nair should be used less if it was true.

Sorry if I can be confusing. ^^;

Aerial priority isn't nearly as definite as people think it is. Anyway, Doc's nair comes out a frame faster. So there's that.

 

[St. Viers]

The trick with fox is is to get grabs off of pivots, and not shield grabs--it's much easier to get the grabs that way. Then just make sure you can CG. Of course getting grabs is a ploblem, due to his speed, but if you can work in, dodge his aerials, and punish with a grab, it isn't as hard as people think. Up-throw to up-air doesn't work on doc, as far as I can tell, and he can't really shine combo you, if you just SDI/ASDI it...

Also, pills are great here, as fox has no disjointed hitbox, and if he starts shining them, laugh, bait, and punish. Just be careful not to FJ pills when he can run under them.

Also, was playing a marth last night, and an assortment of things I noticed.

1. Don't get grabbed by the ledge at low percents, and if you do, DI away, and make sure you disrupt their edgeguard with a premature up B--don't try to sweetspot. Pretty much, the one game I lost was from being too stupid near the ledge at low percents.

2. After like 50%, the only thing marth can do to you is f-smash, as long as you can edgetech the d-tilt. I consistantly lived to like 150% every time I wasn't killed early, and once lived to 235% before I misspaced and got smashed. Just DI up, throw pills (but not when in jump-b-air range of marth), and save the jump. If he grabs the ledge hoping to d-air you, bait it and up b onto the stage, or go low and try and tech it (which is of course only possible if you hug the stage).

3. Unless he perfectly sweetspots, you can cape his upB. Try and hit late wit hthe cape, so that if he does sweetspot, you aren't lagging and get punished.

4. Like with fox, don't try to shield grab--instead work on making him whiff and punish--his f-air is still a *****, but even autocanceled n-airs you can grab him out of--as to autocancel the last swipe, thats hitbox goes behind him has to come out. I *think* you can f-tilt him if he whiffs a f-air, but that could have been him messing up.

EDIT: actually something I'm noticing is that shielding is rarely the best choice, and completely useless at low percents.

 

[Dogysamich]

shielding what? A marth?

 

[#HBC | Mac]

st viers come play me.