Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Dogysamich]

Watch Shroomed jank on people (edited by dogy)
watch my sets on this channel, and give me advice everyone
edited cause shroomed link game is like his pill game. wtf.

Fixed yo s***. I got so much youtube to catch up on from the past 2 weeks or so (i'm back logged PAST my hd dying), but I'll make sure to catch it. I need your vids cause I'm almost done with Doc Playlist 2. ( I had like, 20 vids left last i checked)

BTW Shroomed, who's youtube channel is that?

sorry if this is the wrong place but I couldnt see an faq thread
I'm new to melee and doc and I was mucking around today with the upthrow chaingrab on fox and I cant seem to get consecutive grabs till around 30%, is that normal or can you start it much earlier?
also whats the best way to grab, I've been doing dashdance/pivot jc grabs.


also another quick question while I'm at it, falco and fox can do L cancels into shines to prevent you from sheild grabbing them or whatever, but can you still upB out of shield or are you completely ****ed if you let them get you in that position?

No you're in the RIGHT place, we just jank and bs around till people come in and ask real questions.

Fox CG Questions: It all comes down to your ability to react, respond, and JC grab after you u.throw them. Most people complain about not being able to regrab till 'round 30%; I personally can do it from 0%. It's all about reaction speed and practice.

Up+B question: No, welcome to the "wonderful world of melee" . Yeah, they're allowed to mess up further than every other character and still put pressure on people. Doc? Only way you could reasonable land an aerial on somebody and have no real risk of getting shieldgrabbed (or the like) is if you do a deep SHFFL'd f.air. Problem with that then becoming DOING said f.air without getting interrupted.

 

[Shroomed]

I think HMW has my second set vs phil where I get all different kinds of ****ed up...and that's hyuga's channel

 

[unknown522]

KK posting:

Shroomed, l2cg

 

[Shroomed]

KK posting:

Shroomed, l2cg

if sheik DI's up, it stops working very early sadly

i started getting nervous and rolling more which is why i got ***** in the 5th match

i need to quit rolling almost all together.....although i found when usmash OOS works the most

im jus gonna get a good training session with lucien this or next week

 

[otg]

if sheik DI's up, it stops working very early sadly

I've noticed this too, but I'm still pretty confident you can get a regrab out of it with a pivot JCgrab. And if not, you just get a free utilt -> ****.

 

[Shroomed]

I've noticed this too, but I'm still pretty confident you can get a regrab out of it with a pivot JCgrab. And if not, you just get a free utilt -> ****.

i jus usmash, im not confident in comboing sheik cuz she can nair outta too much stuff

 

[otg]

i jus usmash, im not confident in comboing sheik cuz she can nair outta too much stuff

Yeah thats fine too, I think the Utilt is just a little faster on cooldown which allows more opportunity to punish.

 

[VGmasta]

The chaingrab on Sheik works just like the chaingrab on Ganon (guaranteed if the opponent doesn't DI up).
Lucien looks really smart vs. Doc too. I don't see too many Sheik shielding immediately after landing a f-tilt at low percents to avoid being punished by Doc's crouch-cancel trade offs. Lucien's recovery was really good at times too.

Why did Sheik seem to have less landing lag here?: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oS4YMfXsVvE#t=2m15s

EDIT: And does pivot JC grab extend the grab range or something?

 

[luke_atyeo]

ok thanks dude, so just basically uthrow, follow di with walk/run into jc grab, yeah?
if your good enough at the chaingrab (and from what I understand what I'm about to say is near impossible to pull off) is it possible to uthrow cg untill you get to dthrow cg percent and then finish with uthrow fair, all in one 0 to death combo? (on spacies?)

I'm probably having trouble atm since I'm doing it on an empty controller so theres no DI at all so they go just behing your grab which is why I was doing pivot ****.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

ok thanks dude, so just basically uthrow, follow di with walk/run into jc grab, yeah?
if your good enough at the chaingrab (and from what I understand what I'm about to say is near impossible to pull off) is it possible to uthrow cg untill you get to dthrow cg percent and then finish with uthrow fair, all in one 0 to death combo? (on spacies?)

I've seen Dogy (and a couple of other Docs) do it.

SUMMONING DOGYSAMICH.

Smooth Criminal

 

[Shroomed]

lucien says if sheik up b's and lands like on the very edge of the ledge (lol that rhymes)

she will have half lag....i didnt know that till last sunday

i've lost to him 3 times in a row now, im getting angry

 

[unknown522]

doc's CG on sheik works from 0-65% or so. You also get a follow-up.

Also, DIing up on vertical throws/moves doesn't do anything. It doesn't change your distance.

 

[Shroomed]

I'm highly doubting ur second statement unknown

I've seen fox/falco's DI my and Marth's uthrow up and shine out of it

 

[luke_atyeo]

it would make sense though, since holding across inputs your character to move sideways, which is something that you can do, however you cannot move up by holding up, you can only jump.

so by that logic, you shouldnt be able to di up out of a throw because you cant move yourself up at anygiven time, di or not.

now I'll shut up and sit back down.

 

[Vulcan55]

it's not that, it's just that DI-ing only influences direction (derp), it doesn't change distance, speed, whatever.
DI-ing directly with or opposite from your trajectory won't change your direction, and thus won't affect your airtime, speed, distance, or whatever you think it might. It would have the same effect as not DI-ing at all.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

what he said

this shud be common knowledge

 

[boss8]

i try to get as much damage off a grab as much as possible possibly a kill......

on shiek...ill grab chaingrab.....dash attack Fsmash........fox is just chain grab.....to fair or utilt.....wtf get creative....

 

[Dogysamich]

text time while i wait for my new cpu #2 to install office.

if sheik DI's up, it stops working very early sadly

i started getting nervous and rolling more which is why i got ***** in the 5th match

i need to quit rolling almost all together.....although i found when usmash OOS works the most

like 20 people say above me, DIing up dont work. It's timing and grabbing the right place. Moreso, the speed in which you initally move to regrab, and knowing that sheik's lowest hitbox is like, her leg or something. (it's in that doc info thread that desh hasnt updated since the beginning of time)

Rolling alot? Got that $mac complex! *runs away*

it's not that you dont need to roll, it's the knowing when and why.

i jus usmash, im not confident in comboing sheik cuz she can nair outta too much stuff

Ok, here's is some glass half full/half empty logic for you and pretty much everybody else who falls into this category atm.

*sidenote* surprises me to hear you actually HAVE this fear.

So there are two ways to look at this situation, you're looking at it from the passive side, which is "I should stop/not do this, because I don't want to get hurt for it." Which is perfectly fine and acceptable. If said thing CAN happen, it might, and rather than continuing on, you could actually stop, save yourself, and then get MORE of a reward.

On the inverse, there's the aggresive side of the same situation, where you would say"I'm going to keep going, and you better do something to stop me." While it may be in your best interest to stop, you're not going to stop until you're given a reason TO stop. (Common known as "The reason why scrubs get comboed all day long).

*stops rant* I could go on about this for a while.

tl;dr - N**** suck it up. You gotta take chances sometimes. That's the life of not having all the tools for the job.

Yeah thats fine too, I think the Utilt is just a little faster on cooldown which allows more opportunity to punish.

Depends on if you land it at the % where it stuns, but doesn't knock them too far away.

if your good enough at the chaingrab (and from what I understand what I'm about to say is near impossible to pull off) is it possible to uthrow cg untill you get to dthrow cg percent and then finish with uthrow fair, all in one 0 to death combo? (on spacies?)

This is the closest I've got recorded that I remember Although I have done it plenty of times (I'm not a video *****).

The hardest part about it really is the transition from u.throw to d.throw. Cause it works like this.

-After ~30%, you actually can start d.throw chaingrabbing spanimals, but you have to know exactly where they are going to be BEFORE you throw and you have to make the right move for it ASAP. (ie if they're going to be slightly behind, you have to pivot / walk turnaround ASAP)

-d.throw chaingrab does become "reactable" (imo) till ~70%, that's after the earliest a spanimal CAN get out of the CG if you're continuing to grab them. *catch is they don't DI. If they do DI, you can CG them straight till you start d.throw CGing.*

-In your option to continue from here (u.tilt regrab), they can DI to a point to where regrabbing is like "omg dunno if it's gunna work"

So the real catch is milking the u.throw CG to the point of where you can go straight to the d.throw CG.

Your other alternatives would be

-throw (up or down) -> tech chase, which is real gimmicky.
-d.throw -> jab, seeing as DOC'S JAB IS TRASH AND HAS SET KNOCKBACK. (i forgot who mentioned this to me on aim, never thought about it like that).
-hit them till they get to a more managable %: which works more often than it should because of how many people actually don't do the "hoensty check" when getting grabbed.

Both of those have huge gaps for getting out, but become nessicary around platforms.

Or you can do plan x.

Which is d.throw and pray.

d
Also, DIing up on vertical throws/moves doesn't do anything. It doesn't change your distance.

I'm highly doubting ur second statement unknown

I've seen fox/falco's DI my and Marth's uthrow up and shine out of it

Um, if that happens, it's a case of marth not pivoting at the right time.

That's why there are all sorts of throw setups, because straight CGing for marth is hard.

i try to get as much damage off a grab as much as possible possibly a kill......

on shiek...ill grab chaingrab.....dash attack Fsmash........fox is just chain grab.....to fair or utilt.....wtf get creative....

*cosigns*

cept for the dash attack -> f.smash. I'm gunna have to f*** with that. That's that boss logic I've never dreamed of.

 

[otg]

dash attack -> fsmash is Bnb

 

[Dogysamich]

I dont think i've ever done that on purpose.

And I've literally 0-death comboed somebody by accident in finals before, so anything's possible in my books.

 

[unknown522]

I'm highly doubting ur second statement unknown

I've seen fox/falco's DI my and Marth's uthrow up and shine out of it

you don't have to DI up for that to work. When fox reaches 20%, he can shine out of marth's CG if he doesn't DI the throw. By this point you have to pivot into the grab, so that the higher part of his grab hitbox grabs fox, until he's at 27%. Otherwise he can just shine you. Also if you mis-space the pivot, they can shine you too.


well, something like that.

 

[Shroomed]

guess i'm a noob that thought DI'ing up did something

so im guessing doc has to DD JC grab spacies that don't DI the up throw

 

[otg]

guess i'm a noob that thought DI'ing up did something

so im guessing doc has to DD JC grab spacies that don't DI the up throw

Or you could just utilt them and **** them into holy oblivion.

 

[Dogysamich]

not at all.

They'll fall back into it regardless cause of how fast they fall. You just have to make sure to move/grab fast enough.

That's where most docs get tripped up CGing spanimals. They'res some misconception that fall speed = weight, so they wait as long as they would have to for CapFal, which Fox and Falco are somewhere in the top 5 in lightness or so.

You can most ALMOST instantly when you throw them.


edit, started watching some of those shroomed vids.

when you go to CG sheik, if she doesnt di, the hitbox you're supposed to grab is behind you.

double edit: you have that b.throw logic every doc / mario has for whatever reason. If you're going to b.throw somebody, and they have any damage that merits a free hit, just take your **** free hits first. If they're not going to "miss the DI on your b.throw cause they're too slow", what they really decided is they werent going to DI it at all".

It's not like we're talkin bout a jiggs u.throw or anything here.

*sidenote* im just giving you lil cliffnotes cause i know you dont like reading. I'm not gunna bother touching on everything. >.>

EDIT: HOLY **** SOMEBODY ELSE LANDED A DUNK WTF IS THE DOC GAME COMING TO.

 

[Shroomed]

thanks for the CG info guyz, i didnt know that stuff

i'll try it out next tourney

 

[KirbyKaze]

Sheik CG goes 0-65 but you have to be precise and grab her leg for part of it.

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=6492650&postcount=20

 

[Dogysamich]

This **** right here made me stop and laugh for a few minutes

lol.

I'm tellin you guys, shroomed/$mac/boss all have the same f'n logic. (STFU BOSS THAT PLAY'S RIGHT UP YOUR ALLEY!)

edit: shroomed got that mario u.tilt on doc

(yeah i know he jumped stfu im enjoying my cpus.)

___

SO IN CONCLUSION SHROOMED (tl;dr version): i say you work wonders with room. If I had to give you a strong suit, it'd have to be your DD game. As long as you're allowed "room" to do that, things tend to work in your favor. (I quote room because in some situations you get scared into thinking you DONT have the room for it).

For future improvement I suggest a combination of -
1) Working on rounding the other aspects of your game.
- They are all ok at best, reason being is cause you tend to be too offensive minded and too one-track minded (i.e. You just want to hit s*** and grab s***. You dont want to set them up for it, you just wnat it now)

2) Working on not committing so much to being in the air.
- We all do it as docs. Just throwing that out there.

3) Working on a smaller comfort zone for your DD game
- IM NOT SAYING YOU WANT TO COLLAPSE THE RANGE YOU WORK IN!! I'm saying you want to get used to functioning in smaller places.

aaaaaand that's tl;dr version.

 

[KirbyKaze]

I don't get it. Was that Dair bad or something? I thought F/D/B-throw --> big hitbox move that hangs around forever --> another move was pretty standard gimp strategy with most characters.

 

[#HBC | Mac]

thats just boss's signature

apparently dogy missed the 4-5 posts we had about that like the page b4

 

[otg]

My doc at it's utmost ******** (recorded at like 5am):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YyTWR1Bms8I&playnext_from=TL&videos=SnS6wAGEvoQ&feature=sub

 

[Dogysamich]

I don't get it. Was that Dair bad or something? I thought F/D/B-throw --> big hitbox move that hangs around forever --> another move was pretty standard gimp strategy with most characters.

na, perfectly fine. I just lol'd hard as mess when i saw it cause i was like "oh i dont think lucien's gunna tech this" and sure enough.

thats just boss's signature

apparently dogy missed the 4-5 posts we had about that like the page b4

no. Which is why i made the joke. Not to mention i remember us talking about it literally years ago when most of the people who post in here didnt exactly exist.

 

[otg]

Not to mention i remember us talking about it literally years ago when most of the people who post in here didnt exactly exist.

In all fairness, I lurked the boards for a good year or two before I made my account.

 

[KirbyKaze]

na, perfectly fine. I just lol'd hard as mess when i saw it cause i was like "oh i dont think lucien's gunna tech this" and sure enough.

I didn't think Lunin could tech that. He was at like 26 and the move didn't cause tumble yet.

 

[Shroomed]

i still don't understand why you are always on the doc boards KK lol
and i hate dashdancing when people are close to me, idk why
i do the same **** in street fighter, approach from the air which gets you *****
and im starting to jus get baired by foxes when i jump and nair, so ima start wavedashing in sometimes i guess

 

[KirbyKaze]

I'm on every board except the completely dead ones and I don't post much on Falco.

 

[JPOBS]

knowledge is powah

 

[KirbyKaze]

If only it actually worked that way

 

[Dogysamich]

this is melee. Buttons are power.

 

[Ocean]

lolwat

 

[luke_atyeo]

thanks dogy, thats heaps useful, I was playing some noobs today and getting some chaingrabs going.
also that 0 to death was beautiful.
since doc's grab game is so ****, what are the best leadups to grab?


also sorry for spamming you guys with questions (gives you something to do though) I had a quick read of that cg thread by magus, do the different grabs, (standing, jc, dash) have different hitboxes on them?