Q&A Doc General Discussion: Ask and ye shall receive ft. otg and Shroomed!

[Vulcan55]

Dogy, you are talking theory, whereas my conclusion is based in practice.
I do better against Marth than I do Sheik.
Like, my brother used to play Marth ALL THE TIME.
I learned that match-up really well.
Not "Marf-destroyer" or anything, but I definitely have done much better against Marths than Sheiks because of it. And I am working on the Sheik match-up a lot thanks to a friend, but it's still so much more work than vs Marth.

But like you said, it's subjective, so whatever.

 

[Dogysamich]

um, I'm not talking theory at all.

I mean, i've been playing marths and sheiks for... years?

 

[InterimOfZeal]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8954050&postcount=20

We need Magus to do stuff like this for us. =(

 

[P.C. Jona]

http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=8954050&postcount=20

We need Magus to do stuff like this for us. =(

wow i saw that and just wow

that guy is seriously amazing at this

falcon needs that

 

[ChivalRuse]

Yeah. If there was an award for the most statistically exhaustive / sexy posts, Magus would win comfortably.

 

[Vulcan55]

um, I'm not talking theory at all.

I mean, i've been playing marths and sheiks for... years?

Lol.
I thought about that right after I posted.
I was like, "Man, I'm ********".

I don't know how you do it, man.

 

[Dogysamich]

Lol.
I thought about that right after I posted.
I was like, "Man, I'm ********".

I don't know how you do it, man.

Eh, dont worry about it. Ironically EVERYBODY says the same thing when I tell them how it goes. I guess it's hard to believe.

But seriously, think about it.

Both marth and sheik are characters that, by nature, Doc is going to have a ridiculous time approaching. So long as both of them guess right, Doc can never get in, and guessing right doesnt involve alot of work for them (Both of them can pick one of 3 moves to keep Doc out, and have more for icing on the cake).

By definition you can't "camp" neither one of them. Sheik could just stay out throwing needles and marth could park his *** in tipper range.

Both of them are, to some degree, edgeguardable (you have to force sheik to up+b, as you're more than likely NOT going to b.air one), but both of them edgeguard Doc for free.

Although Marth controls platforms BETTER than sheik, Sheik controls them well enough against Doc to where it's pretty much a moot point.

So that leaves setups, which mainly come from grabs.

If marth grabs Doc, he can throw him any direction, which normally is throwing him into a smaller space. If he wants more damage, he can just throw him up. It isn't immediate damage, but Doc's in the air vs Marth. WHAT IN GODS NAME IS DOC GOING TO DO UP THERE EXCEPT FOR PRAY TO WHATEVER GOD HE THINKS IS GOING TO GET HIS *** DOWN.

If sheik gets a grab, however, she's going to throw Doc and score one hit from it, if any. Yes she can throw him into a small space, but her range advantage over doesn't compare to Marth's advantage (infact, Sheik's range advantage isn't as true as people make it out to be). She can throw Doc up, but if anything, she's going to land ONE aerial unless Doc does some stupid dumb stuff (Which is possible).

So from all this, you should kinda get that Doc deters neither one of them from doing what they want, while both of them can pretty much force Doc to do some things. And although Sheik can put in some work on Doc, maybe more than Marth, it's not as one-sided as it tends when Marth fights Doc.

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I'm learning how hitstun and all that fun stuff works for Doc. Once Magus points me in the right direction, expect some stuff about Doc to be posted. Dunno if any of it'll be worthwhile, but yeah...

 

[Dogysamich]

Eighteenspikes vs Bzoo

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x95JDf_a8gY

3:23:

.... -throws chair-

That's it. I f****** quit melee.

 

[HiIH]

So, uhhh.... Sagat is gay.

 

[Dogysamich]

... I'll make sure to teach Jx some sagat when he comes over tomorrow so he can beat the **** outta you guys.

Cause lord knows he doesnt listen to me when I tell him stuff about melee.

 

[Vulcan55]

Wow that was so awesome.

 

[unknown522]

you guys are just bad vs falcon

maybe because i play falcon i know how doc just works him and what to against falcon

you guys should play the match up vice versa to see what its like

play a good doc as falcon and then youll see

idk theres alot of things that just hurt

MAX do you have a flash drive? if we play tomorrow im gonna record and give it to you so you can upload it

were gonna do mad falcon vs doc and then ill switch to doc and you be falcon

and ill destroy you with my 4 tricks

lol, I'm not saying that I'm gonna lose the matchup. It's just bad for doc. Wanna MM?

Though I still think falco is worse.

 

[otg]

lol, I'm not saying that I'm gonna lose the matchup. It's just bad for doc. Wanna MM?

Though I still think falco is worse.

Easiest $$ you'll ever make lol

 

[KirbyKaze]

unknown's Doc is dumb and approaches.

 

[otg]

unknown's Doc is dumb and approaches.

oh wow, Jona might actually win then.

 

[KirbyKaze]

nah I still think unknown will win if there's money on it

he'll camp after the first game if he loses or it's close

 

[HiIH]

... I'll make sure to teach Jx some sagat when he comes over tomorrow so he can beat the **** outta you guys.

Cause lord knows he doesnt listen to me when I tell him stuff about melee.

Lol, I say that cause I picked him up for the first time the other day... and it was like turning the game on easy mode...

Seriously.

 

[Smooth Criminal]

3:23:

.... -throws chair-

That's it. I f****** quit melee.

LMAO.

XD

Dtilt is grrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrreat

Smooth Criminal

 

[otg]

Falco is so much fun. He's like Doc but good.

 

[Shroomed]

you guys r all gay cuz u guys barely play doc in tourney

cept like dogy and boss

DOC IS THE BEST CHAR IN THIS GAME (nah he ****in sucks ****)

scar is gonna be norcal now so u guys shall see me and HMW play a falcon that's not SS

 

[#HBC | Mac]

Falco is so much fun. He's like Doc but good.

you say this about every character

 

[eighteenspikes]

you guys r all gay cuz u guys barely play doc in tourney

cept like dogy and boss

DOC IS THE BEST CHAR IN THIS GAME (nah he ****in sucks ****)

scar is gonna be norcal now so u guys shall see me and HMW play a falcon that's not SS

what?? boss plays mario and dogy doesnt even play in tournaments. lol

 

[InterimOfZeal]

I play Doc in tournament.

=(

 

[unknown522]

you guys r all gay cuz u guys barely play doc in tourney

cept like dogy and boss

DOC IS THE BEST CHAR IN THIS GAME (nah he ****in sucks ****)

scar is gonna be norcal now so u guys shall see me and HMW play a falcon that's not SS

haha, I wish I played doc more often in tourney, but I have a lot of johns as to why I don't

 

[Vulcan55]

Falco is like my best secondary right behind Mario.

 

[Dogysamich]

what?? boss plays mario and dogy doesnt even play in tournaments. lol

I'm sorry I dont ***** the recorder like everybody else.

^_^

 

[boss8]

i go doc actually.....

 

[VGmasta]

you guys r all gay cuz u guys barely play doc in tourney

cept like dogy and boss

DOC IS THE BEST CHAR IN THIS GAME (nah he ****in sucks ****)

scar is gonna be norcal now so u guys shall see me and HMW play a falcon that's not SS

Well, I mostly go Doc. But me vs. Fox or Sheik at something gay like Rainbow Cruise means I'm gonna wreck fools up with Ganon. Edgeguarding a Fox on Rainbow Cruise is annoying.

Even if Doc aint the best character in the game, he's the most interesting IMO.

And good luck with beating Scar as Doc.

 

[otg]

you say this about every character

The only other character I've said it about is Sheik, and Sheik is officially Doc on crack. Falco isn't really that close, but I see similarities.

Also, for the record I went all Doc at ROM2 except for 3 individual matches where I felt it would be safer going for a secondary (and two of those three I was successful). I just missed brackets too (33rd out of 180 people, top 32 went to brackets), so I don't be all like "NO ONE REPS DOC IN TOURNIES ANYMORE".

All I ****ing do is rep Doc. Doc all day *****, whats ****ing good?

 

[pkmvodka]

you guys are just bad vs falcon

maybe because i play falcon i know how doc just works him and what to against falcon

you guys should play the match up vice versa to see what its like

play a good doc as falcon and then youll see

idk theres alot of things that just hurt

MAX do you have a flash drive? if we play tomorrow im gonna record and give it to you so you can upload it

were gonna do mad falcon vs doc and then ill switch to doc and you be falcon

and ill destroy you with my 4 tricks

I never understood how mid tier players could talk about matchups like they were god's gift to this game.

 

[otg]

I never understood how mid tier players could talk about matchups like they were god's gift to this game.

He doesn't main Doc, and his opinions on this game shouldn't be taking seriously because he is either a very good Troll or just flat out ********. Every other person here will tell you that Doc v. Falcon sucks.

Also, for the record (tho I doubt anyone cares), Jona and I did the Doc v. Falcon matchup with me as Falcon and I ***** the **** out of him (is anyone surprised?) and it was recorded, tho I doubt those matches will ever see the light of day because he won't upload matches of himself losing.

 

[pockyD]

haha p.c. jona is a mid tier player?

 

[Dogysamich]

And good luck with beating Scar as Doc.

... I mean, with all respect to Scar, you make it sound like he's unbeatable with Doc or something.

I never understood how mid tier players could talk about matchups like they were god's gift to this game.

With respect to what you quoted; yeah, I absolutely hate it when people are on that trip.

 

[pkmvodka]

haha p.c. jona is a mid tier player?

well I didn't want to flame too hard but fine, low tier player.

I just read the matchups of some of you.

How can falcon be harder for doc than fox?

I always thought fox was doc's worst matchup with sheik/falco.

 

[otg]

How can falcon be harder for doc than fox?

I always thought fox was doc's worst matchup with sheik/falco.

I don't get where people think the spacies are Doc's worst matchups. It seems like only non-Doc mains think that spacies **** Doc, while anyone who has played a good Doc/mains Doc thinks its either Sheik/Falcon/Marth. This isn't knocking your opinion at all, I'm just stating how the community tends to look at Doc and his matchups.

As for how Doc v. Spacies plays out and how the Doc's view it, some people claim it's even, some think Falco does better vs. Doc and vice versa, some (read: Mogwai) think that Falco is Doc's worst matchup or some think Fox is etc etc. Personally I don't have that big of a problem vs. spacies and would rather fight them over Sheik/Marth, but that's just me.

 

[Dogysamich]

well I didn't want to flame too hard but fine, low tier player.

I just read the matchups of some of you.

How can falcon be harder for doc than fox?

I always thought fox was doc's worst matchup with sheik/falco.

Fox, by himself, doesn't have anything that inherently puts Doc in bad positions. Infact, Doc goes as far as to get free rides by through some of Fox's stronger setups (u.throw u.air mainly, and drill -> shine -> upsmash is airtight).

Beyond that, Fox has to put himself in harm's way to get something of merit accomplished. I mean sure he can press buttons and whatnot, but if Doc lands a grab he's got setups from any percent, kills at a a decent range of %s, and setups to get Fox off the stage.

Speaking of off the stage, it's not like Fox is any sort of threat to Doc once he (Fox) is off the stage. Fox also doesn't have an extraordinary edgeguard that pretty much LOCKS all of Doc's options.

It's not like Fox outRANGES doc or anything, it's actually the other way around (Although you can't really tell that because the matchup is normally about one keeping the other out, depending on who wants to/who can be the aggressor).

The same stuff applies to falco, the big differences are

1) the blatantly obvious "can you just handle his lasers?" (which does add ALOT to it)
2) falco's ability to control vertical vs horizontal (read: falco's jump height/speed vs fox's ground mobility)

2) Where falco has a worse recovery, he does have a better edgeguard. It really doesn't matter seeing as Doc's recovery is where you dont NEED an edgeguard to deal with him, having a better one heps.

3) Falco's benefits from landing a hit or grab are the same against Doc, where as Fox's take more work than normal (drillshine -> upsmash) or they dont exist (u.throw u.air)

__

Now don't get me wrong.

I'm not trying to sit here like "OMG DOC ***** SPANIMALS WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT", it's not like that. It's just that, by default, neither one of them have something automatic that hinders Doc.

Fox's speed (through movement and moveset) doesn't, by itself, make Doc's life harder, it comes from the player's ability.

Falco's lasers don't make Doc's life hard, the player's pattern does.

Sheik's F.tilt, on the other hand, can keep Doc at bay by itself.

Same goes for Capfal's N.air.

 

[Shroomed]

all the falco's shoot lasers over ur face to bait your cape

and ima going to TRY to beat scar lol, i know he's good but i dont think i suck that badly

falco is gayer than fox

fox is still really gay

sheik is combo food

marth looks pretty gay with his tiara

 

[Vulcan55]

good **** Docs.

 

[eighteenspikes]

ugh **** yall who say puff is easy or w/e. at a tourney yesterday i beat chexr's marth and falco, then lost winners finals game 5 to a sheik, then got 0-3'ed by chexr's puff in losers finals **** sheik and puff. on the plus side I actually beat TripleR's kirby so that's one matchup I am slowly improving on.