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Discussion of Lesser Known Match Ups.

BluePeachy100

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One thing I've felt I should do for a very long time, but since only about 2 people agreed with me on this, I've decided to take the initiative and do this myself. This thread is to discuss Match Ups that are lesser known to us all, I.E. Bowser, Ness, things such as that. There's no point in constantly polishing up Match Ups like Wario, and Snake if we lose to someone like Shaky in bracket(not an insult, just using Shaky as an example, as I don't know the Ness Match Up very well.

I talked to Cura yesterday, and I told him about my not understanding some Match Ups, or completely not knowing some of them at all. I am from Upstate New York, and we have a very diverse region, with characters that vary from Ness, to Sonic, to ZSS, Yoshi and San- errhmmhmhmm Ike. Cura said to me, despite match ups, it is MK, and it will come down to you being better than then. But quite frankly, I don't want to barely get by on it just being MK on someone decent, when I can lose to someone well verse in the MK Match Up(and if you aren't, you should be, MK is the most known Match Up, there's no excuse not to know it, none at all).

Frankly, in a way, you could say that "I wish" everyone used characters like Snake, or Wario, so you can have an easy time in bracket, but there are, and will always be Yoshi mains, Ness mains, ect. We all should know the higher tier Match Ups, but yet, we're constantly polishing them, and neglecting other characters we know nothing about. Knowing how to play against a character, how to approach a character, how to kill a character is what my aim is, I do not like going in blind against a character whom I may have never played. Quite frankly, it's frustrating to lose to them.

An example:

Say and MK glides while fighting an Olimar, the MK might not know that's bad, and will likely get punished for it a number of times, as opposed to just standing outside of the grab range and baiting the Olimar or something.

Should this thread stay, I'd like to offer my hand to help any MK main that may have a question, or something to offer to the thread. This is a learning process for all of us, I'd like to ask right now that nobody say anything mean about a question, or theory that someone may have to add. None of us know everything, and we're all just trying to get better at the game. So please, be respectful, and try to build each other up.

I'd like to start with an estimation of Match Up ratios, if someone has fought a character that is lesser used, and has note of what that character has done/tried to do to shut down MK's approach, please state it, and anything you tried that may have worked to get around their approach.

I'd like to please ask that the moderators of the Meta Knight boards not lock this thread, if it is active, I think it can be very beneficial to us all in the long run.
 

lilseph

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Guess i'll start things off a little bit. This is just my 2 cents just to get the thread going.

Sonic- From what i have from personal experience with the MU, i can say that GSL and Nair destroy snoic, as does dtilt. He will be using spindash or fair to approach, ftilt and dtilt shut these down, and if he pokes your shield GSL covers almost everything. I'm not to sure about tornado against Sonic, i can't remember off the top of my head how well it does against him. Sonic has a great recovery but its very preditible, if you can figure it out its not hard to gimp him. Overall i like to stay grounded in this MU, or nair/GSL when needed, and gimp his ***.

Yoshi- DONT GET GRABBED. Other than that this is a very easy MU. I have played countless matches with firefly (one of the best yoshis in the world) and from what i have seen they like to do a lot of pivot grabs. Be careful of that, remember dont get grabbed. Tornado destroys yoshi, he basiclly can't do anything about it. As far as gimping goes, i havn't had much succes with it. But i might have been doing something wrong, so correct me if i wrong about gimping yoshi is hard. IIRC he has super armour on his second jump. Sorry, but i'm not to fimiliar with yoshis attacks, i just know what they look like and how to react to them, but he has one when he turns you into an egg, pops you up and thhe air. After that if you mash out of the egg as fast as possible he can FHUair and kill you off the top fairly quickly, so be craeful of that. Overall this MU is, for the most part, extremly easy. Tornado is your best friend, so is SL. Dont get grabbed, he can air realese to another grab and carry you across the stage.
 

Player-4

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Bleh

The plan is to get to these characters in the MU discussion eventually. Please ask me next time before making these threads. I know you have good intentions but I wanna focus on the current MU discussions.

I do agree we need to know low and odd MUs but we're gonna get to them in time.

I think I'll leave this open for tonight and decide tomorrow what I'll do with this.

We do need to wrap up the other discussions, and I'd like it if people would stay on top of things >_>
 

Kaffei

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Yoshi is gay as hell if they pivot grab a lot god dammit


can we do like Olimar/sheik/captain falcon lmao
 

BluePeachy100

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I apologize, but the way things progress, it doesn't seem like we'd get done with anything any time soon. As I see it, there isn't really a wrong time to discuss match ups, and despite "eventually" we do have tournaments that may occur before then.

Once again, I am sorry, I didn't mean to seem like I was undermining your authority or anything.
---------------------

@ Seph

I play KidGoggles a bit, and what I noticed works is basically dairing grounded spindashes, as well as tornadoing the approaches. Tornado has to be used with extreme discretion in this match up, because Sonic can basically punish it from across the stage, even if you buffer it if the Sonic is good at reading.(what way you fall) Honestly, and I say this a lot, I'd say dtilt a little less, because it can be punished by spindash if he reads it, I just practice safe options, since I don't know much about it. However, ftilt is great if timed perfectly, or spaced against Sonic's shield, because there's basically nothing he can do about it, other than dash attack, but if you space ftilt at the very tip, you should be able to ps it. Also, Sonic has a grab release regrab on MK, and Grab release fair, usmash from the grab release it a gimmick and you can jump>ad away from it, or dair him. Just to let you guys know. Dair is really good in this MU, if you use it correctly, there is like nothing Sonic can do about it. Staying low to the ground is absolutely correct, SH Fairs/Tornados shut down Sonic well.

Things that result from you tornadoing wrong:
A grab
A Homing attack
An Fsmash
A Dsmash
and Dair can break it from the top.


Now... Yoshi. You can grab, or footstool him out of his second jump. Seph is right too, you have to ABSOLUTELY have to be aware of pivot grabs. I tend to tornado less, because if you do it wrong, Yoshi can actually nair you out of it.(but this was about 6 months ago when I had no clue how to use tornado) However, SL is in fact your best friend. It's a great gimping toolin the match up/kill move for higher percent recoveries. You can GSL his bairs, and dsmash them if he tries to go behind you.

Things that result from tornadoing wrong:
Sadly, a grab
a smash
 

Player-4

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It's not that you're undermining me, (that'd be kinda was Iota is doing in the social lol).

I'm just saying you should ask me about threads like this next time, that's for anyone. I think we could organize something better or plan it out together.
 

BluePeachy100

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Ah, I understand you perfectly now. lol, in what I was doing, now it seems a bit contradictory to trying to bring us up together.
 

Sunnysunny

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Yooo. Yoshi mainer here. =w=

Yea, just a tip but we throw out pivot grab as a defensive maneuver if you rush us from the ground. Its best to approach us with spaced D-airs that are out of range of are U-smash. Were the only character that can shield nado with no fear of getting poked, but we can't really retaliate, unless you like...nados realllly bad, so yea, feel free to spam that. When we u-smash we have invincibility frames on are heads so your not completely safe if your too close. Oh and like again seriously. Don't get grabbed. We have a grab release on you guys that can bring you to the end of the stage and sometimes into a F-air. (our spike move. Can kill ridiculously earlier after a grab release.) Egg lays something you have to watch out for too. Any good yoshi is gonna play really gay in this match up with eggs, u-smash, pivot grab spam, and egg lay.

Edit: Oh I forgot. We can pivot grab you outta tornado if your low to the ground. Were also realllly hard to gimp character. If were at a low percent don't try and gimp us with normal attacks. We can absorb it with double jump armor and counter with a N-air or U-air. However, if you footstool us were pretty screwed. Just watch out for our u-air. Its a fast, fairly long range KO move. Also any other move of ours you don't have to worry about. All of your moves shut down our approach. Yoshi can't deal with disjointed hitboxes too well. ._.
 

Orion*

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yoshis options vs tornado suck. theres your matchup,

literally play a ****ty yoshi, and spam it until you learn the spacing on everything and you cant lose LMAO
 

Judo777

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Lesser known MU's? Oh you mean every MU below D3? MK's on average dont know MU's below D3 because they can just do basic MK things to win. Evidence of this is that most MK's explain MU's in one move aka (Tornado is the X character MU). Like i said they dont know the MU but then again they dont have to cause their MK.

Sheiks dont know the fox MU but why would we have to? Ftilt is the MU from our perspective. Do basic sheik stuff and when you land ftilt kill em.
 

Sunnysunny

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yoshis options vs tornado suck. theres your matchup,

literally play a ****ty yoshi, and spam it until you learn the spacing on everything and you cant lose LMAO
1000x this.

If you fight us yoshis like were equals, we'll have a better chance.
If you fight us like low tier trash and spam nado were ****ed. :V
 

demonictoonlink

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Lesser known MU's? Oh you mean every MU below D3? MK's on average dont know MU's below D3 because they can just do basic MK things to win. Evidence of this is that most MK's explain MU's in one move aka (Tornado is the X character MU). Like i said they dont know the MU but then again they dont have to cause their MK.

Sheiks dont know the fox MU but why would we have to? Ftilt is the MU from our perspective. Do basic sheik stuff and when you land ftilt kill em.
Get him, P-4!
 

Orion*

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nado ***** low tiers pretty hard imo, even if they read it, its like.... okay brawl you punish with 10% or something lmao.
 

Orion*

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chuee you are a ****ing idiot in like every post youve ever made

not only did you just write some random **** that didnt mean anything, you didnt have a point, you didnt name a character, you just act like you know some random arbitrary fact, that probably will never ever ever ever be relevant in a tournament match, you know those things you suck at?

this is the type of **** mods dont infract that actually ruins the board LMAO
 

Player-4

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chuee you are a ****ing idiot in like every post youve ever made

not only did you just write some random **** that didnt mean anything, you didnt have a point, you didnt name a character, you just act like you know some random arbitrary fact, that probably will never ever ever ever be relevant in a tournament match, you know those things you suck at?

this is the type of **** mods dont infract that actually ruins the board LMAO
How do you know I haven't done anything about it? Don't worry your little head about such trivial things, and calm that rage. Sheesh.
 

BluePeachy100

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Please back to the topic of ****ty chars lesser known chars. Thank you.

We need to discuss Olimar badly. lol

I think everybody knows the main problem is getting in vs him, but not only that, it's what to do when you get in vs him. Like... it's such a stupid character.

All I know is standing outside the range and baiting him, ect. but like... we need in depth talk.
 

ぱみゅ

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I'll make the threads.... Eventually....
This new job I got is really exhausting. I barely have energy to reply, honestly I haven't even done the summaries.
 

Orion*

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pierce told me that spotdodging if you make a read ***** olimar because you have no shield lag on his attacks, and therefore most of his moves become unsafe, so ill throw that out there

i suck vs oli
 
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chuee you are a ****ing idiot in like every post youve ever made

not only did you just write some random **** that didnt mean anything, you didnt have a point, you didnt name a character, you just act like you know some random arbitrary fact, that probably will never ever ever ever be relevant in a tournament match, you know those things you suck at?

this is the type of **** mods dont infract that actually ruins the board LMAO
You know, this. If only because Chuee pisses me off even worse than Truth or ccst do.

Also, /r/ing Olimar, Pika, or Fox. Any of those will do.
 

Kaffei

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I believe Olimar to be a bigger threat than Pikachu.
Olimar argubaly has the best ground game and; for one, doesn't have problems with fat people
 

Judo777

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1000x this.

If you fight us yoshis like were equals, we'll have a better chance.
If you fight us like low tier trash and spam nado were ****ed. :V
Sooooooo much this ^^^^^^. This is true for a good majority of the characters even in mid tier. If u play them like they are a character and a threat they might actually stand a good chance at beating u. If u treat them like they are garbage compared to MK you can annilate them. A great example of this was M2K's match vs Brood. Game 1 M2K was just like screw u I'm MK and ***** the hell out of him. Game 2 he took a couple of hits at the very beginning then he started treating olimar like a character and he started playing much worse vs Brood.

I play a luigi with MK sometimes for fun (which btw is a terrrrrrible MU for luigi) and everytime i play him like he is a threat and can beat me he usually beats me solidly. Then after i realize that Im MK and hes luigi and i just do MK stuff it ***** the hell out of him. I'm telling if u just dont treat ur opponents like characters Mk ***** pretty hard.

Also pika vs MK is much worse for MK then olimar. Its just MK's dont know the MU typically cause olis are rare and weird. MK ***** olimar tho hard.
 

etecoon

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yeah this is pretty true of basically most characters in the game, I've found that I frequently nearly lose playing my normal style(my main practice is MK ditto's...) and then turn it around completely by massively simplifying my playstyle and treating the other character like a training mode dummy, and I also think respecting other characters too much is likely why I've lost a lot too

most of the higher tiers this isn't as true of though, gotta respect what characters like falco, diddy, IC's etc. can do to you
 

Orion*

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i thought that to. and then i realized that even against bad metaknights, you cant just go all aggro unless you massively outskill them

so it got boring

@ kaffei
 

Sharky

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tornadoing blindly gets you upsmashed against yoshi, setting you up for him to toss more eggs at you. Best bet is to hover around mid-range where you can bait a reaction out of him, and it's too close for him to egg.
 

Orion*

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tornadoing blindly gets you upsmashed against yoshi, setting you up for him to toss more eggs at you. Best bet is to hover around mid-range where you can bait a reaction out of him, and it's too close for him to egg.
im pretty sure it comes out after frame 10 so that shouldnt be happening unless you are getting read REALLLLY hard

yoshi boards w./ lack of data is gay.
 

Sharky

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I think it's 11 or 12 frames, so yeah. but I did say blindly, as in just throwing it out there whenever lol.
 

Orion*

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as long as your in his face you can do that >_>

his best option imo no yoshis do except p_wii, and i made him drop that awful character so w/e
 

bigman40

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Why would you need to know the matchups for mid/low tiered characters when you're MK? Sounds like you guys are just running into **** when you just need to play smart and camp.

Yoshi boards w/o data = me stopping my work since I was the only one doing it. Not like you need to know any of it anyways.
 

Player-4

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Why would you need to know the matchups for mid/low tiered characters when you're MK? Sounds like you guys are just running into **** when you just need to play smart and camp.

Yoshi boards w/o data = me stopping my work since I was the only one doing it. Not like you need to know any of it anyways.
Such a naive view
 

Orion*

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your ****ing stupid

A. regardless of how you feel SOME people MAY play, if someone doesnt know what options beat and punish their opponents options, then they will lose if their opponent does, REGARDLESS OF THE "assumed" MATCHUP RATIO.
B. camping is not Always the best option.
C. you act like most people come on here, are like uber pros or something. this is a general discussion board, and most people that post are mid level players. and to make matters worse,, players of ALL levels tend to have personal bad matchups, its not really your place to judge anyone just because your salty about metagay

oh, and no i dont need to know your awful frame data.

however, since this is a discussion thread, people like FACTS. not just, oh this move is "slow" or this move is "fast".

also, if you actually gave a **** about your character you would probably have just gotten the frame data together anyway, who cares if nobody else wants to put in the work, thats NOT YOUR ****ING PROBLEM, you take the initiative if you want to be worth anything. and thats a life lesson, not a ****ing smashboards lesson

so unless you have something worthwhile to say please leave,

mk boards are tired of salty low tier mains that not only play crappy characters, but the lack the knowledge or resources to know anything about them, or the skill to play them against disadvantaged matchups (*cough most of them*) without whining like a little girl

edit: wasnt trying to censor dodge
 
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