Discussion of Lesser Known Match Ups.

[bigman40]

Lol, umad?

I know about everything you're talking about because my roommate is a mediocre metaknight, and I teach him about matchups since I play MK every now and then. So, you can take that **** somewhere else.

Of course playing campy isn't the best option. Some of the matchups you can approach, but generally, you have to camp them since they have no options (or very limited ones) to get close.

You want facts? Ask someone that already DID the ****ing work, LOST IT DUE TO DATA CORRUPTION, THEN REDID PORTIONS OF IT WITHOUT ANY ****ING HELP. I do **** that's beneficial to myself in the long run. Why do work for Yoshi boards alone when it's not going to help me in the future? I don't need your "life lesson" when you don't know any of the facts that accumulated to that point.

Despite annoying people, to fight Yoshi, just stay grounded and slowly corner his playing field. Yoshi can't approach, so his only choice is to keep camping unless you throw out a dumb move. Tornado ****s with Yoshi since nothing is fast enough to stop it reliably. Fsmash and Usmash can win but just space nado so that it'll clank and we'll end up getting hit. Pivot grab gets ***** by spacing. So, our only real reliable method to getting you out of it is retreating egglay. Other than that, we have to run. Yoshi's recovering sucks to MK when you wait. Yoshi recovering high gets ***** by SL. We honestly have better chances recovering low/mid.



What happens is what happens, low tier mains being salty is what they choose.

 

[Orion*]

So, our only real reliable method to getting you out of it is retreating egglay.

well you arent a complete idiot

However, YES you are wrong because helping other yoshis, and the community in turn will help you get better.

so way to go when you say you only do things beneficial to yourself in the long run.... but you arent bright enough to see more than 2 steps ahead of yourself.

 

[bigman40]

Lol, okay. Yet, I tell everyone that I'll answer questions as long as they ask me. Don't have the time to do any of the frame data like I used to, so I stopped doing it. Drop the bull**** and get back on topic.

 

[Kaffei]

You walked your fat *** in here and *****ed at us because you think we can **** low tiers that easy, there is a ****ING REASON PEOPLE LIKE SAN AND SHAKY ARE ******

 

[CelestialMarauder~]

You walked your fat *** in here and *****ed at us because you think we can **** low tiers that easy, there is a ****ING REASON PEOPLE LIKE SAN AND SHAKY ARE ******

SO MUCH RAGE! So Shaky and San changes the fact that MK ***** low tiers easily?

 

[Kaffei]

No, my point is that just because they have bad match ups against Meta Knight doesn't mean that MK players can't discuss the match up

 

[BlueSuperSonic1]

Yeah, it doesn't matter if the matchup is bad for those characters if we don't even know what to do against those characters.

 

[bigman40]

K. Done trolling here cause it was pretty pointless when people ***** as soon as someone comes by. Not going to post here anymore, so commenting on this is pointless.

I gave you information needed to fight Yoshi (and most Yoshi's agree with my entire dissertation on the matchup. If you want it, then either ask me or look in the Yoshi BBR discussion). So, there's part of your discussion.

Peace.

 

[Orion*]

SO MUCH RAGE! So Shaky and San changes the fact that MK ***** low tiers easily?

no, it means that it is possible, and that against those players, if you dont know what youre doing you will get *****

mu numbers dont mean anything when people play them improperly

its like, if mk wasnt allowed to camp and didnt push b, then would his mus be the same? obviously not

K. Done trolling here cause it was pretty pointless when people ***** as soon as someone comes by. Not going to post here anymore, so commenting on this is pointless.

I gave you information needed to fight Yoshi (and most Yoshi's agree with my entire dissertation on the matchup. If you want it, then either ask me or look in the Yoshi BBR discussion). So, there's part of your discussion.

Peace.

your information was pretty trivial and obvious tbqh. thanks for the cooky cutter

but anyway

your trolling is ***, because you obviously dont know what youre doing if your actually
trying to troll. at least talk about something that makes you LOOK like youre not a complete idiot

 

[ぱみゅ]

Example A.

 

[Kaffei]

K. Done trolling here cause it was pretty pointless when people ***** as soon as someone comes by. Not going to post here anymore, so commenting on this is pointless.

I gave you information needed to fight Yoshi (and most Yoshi's agree with my entire dissertation on the matchup. If you want it, then either ask me or look in the Yoshi BBR discussion). So, there's part of your discussion.

Peace.

We ***** because you are a dumb ***

 

[Budget Player Cadet_]

Example A.

Needs more tornado. Waaaay more tornado.

Also can someone hook me up with some san vids? I just don't see how anyone playing Ike could ever beat a high-level MK.

 

[Sharky]

MK is one of the match-ups that tend to plague san at the highest levels, at columbus he lost to dojo (losers) and tyrant (consols), and at apex he lost to doom in winners. He still wrecks any mk that doesn't know the mu though.

 

[Orion*]

im suure doom has extensive ike practice

along with tyrant and dojo

 

[Sharky]

that being the reason they beat him lol

well tyrant might not have much but he obviously did something right, and he's just really good anyway

 

[etecoon]

doom is the only one of those that you maybe wouldn't expect to beat him anyway, tyrant and dojo are both top 10 or top 5 in the country caliber players so there's really no shock there

losing to doom and then beating gnes and razer does show how bad the MU is though, no offense to doom but those two are second or third best at their characters and those happen to be the next two best characters after MK(officially anyway, I think falco and IC's > snake though)

 

[BluePeachy100]

I swear it's not the Ike match up, it's the ****ING SAN MATCH UP.

 

[Gaia_x]

I can beat sanford

 

[Sharky]

do it then, what have you been waiting for!


oh wait...

 

[Gaia_x]

Waiting for you to stop playing yoshi

 

[BluePeachy100]

Cura, ban rainbow cruise vs Sanford.

 

[V]

Most of my friends play low tier characters and they've been playing them since the game came out so ill say my 2 cents and hopefully it helps

Ness: his best tool in the MU IMO is fair. we have to space our fair perfectly to beat it. i prefer to stay grounded for about 90% of the match and walk dont dash. you can punish almost everything he has from walking into shield and shield dropping into ftilt/dtild/SL OoS/nair OoS/dair OoS. your tilts outrange his ground moves and if you walk you should be able to PS pk fire everytime. gsl ***** fair approaches from my experience. i really like ftilt and dtilt in this match as the are very fast and hes pressed to get around them. if you use SL a lot grab/pummel/dthrow to refresh it since its a great kill move in the match. edgeguarding isnt easy unless you follow ness out there and stay on him the whole time. if you give him breathing room to get back you can get into trouble with his rising uair/dair spike. the best way to gimp him is to absorb his pk thunder, but you have to be directly above him and we have poor aerial mobility. if hes far from the ledge, time the edgehog. if hes close, just ledge trap him. his only decent get up option is rising fair and we can punish that oos. just play defensively, space your tilts, stay grounded, and watch out for the grab at kill percents as bthrow is his best kill move

Mario: not the cakewalk you might think he is. he can actually combo us at low percents with his aerials. again i prefer to stay grounded. if he likes to fireball for openings than throwing out aerials playing defensively isnt a good option. tornado is good if he cant cape you when you do it. spaced ftilts and dtilts really destroy his ground game too since they outrange his entire moveset. gimping can be difficult if he's smart. timing the edgehog is probably your best bet again. he's bad directly above you so take advantage of uair strings when you can. i like to play defensively in his face. dont give him room to use fireball and fludd but stay at enough of a distance where he cant get through ftilt and dtile. GSL ***** him too. backswing of dsmash is my favorite kill move in the match. if the mario likes running around with dairs, nado is a great punisher. if he doenst use fireballs, aerial away. dair camping works too as he has a tough time punishing you at a 45 degreee angle

Bowser: his only hope really is his grab release gimmicks. he has good range on dtilt and ftilt but both are punishable on shield with dashgrab/nado/ftilt etc. fire breath is his longest reaching move. if he lands it, DI out and nado. he SUCKS above you. thats the #1 place you want him. uair and nado juggle for most of your damage and just get a read for the kill. all his kill moves are avoidable if you space him well

Honestly, i think the best overall strategy against low tiers is to play the punishing game

 

[KingJacob]

I was wondering if I could get some help on the Toon Link matchup? I know I should Tornado a lot when they do not have a bomb out and gimp them hard, but any advice would be extremely welcome. Also what stages should I pick against him, It would be great if you could say what you consider the top three stages against him in case he strikes one.

 

[KingJacob]

Sorry Double Post Is it possible to delete a double post?

 

[Kaffei]

I was wondering if I could get some help on the Toon Link matchup? I know I should Tornado a lot when they do not have a bomb out and gimp them hard, but any advice would be extremely welcome. Also what stages should I pick against him, It would be great if you could say what you consider the top three stages against him in case he strikes one.

I wouldn't say "Tornado a lot" cus I find that he's one of the characters who pop out of Nado more easily, and he can dair you right after.


This is what DoJo said:

Honestly to me it's about keeping him pressured very consistently. Like putting his back to the edge.

All he's trying to do is set up a barrier of bomb's, boomerang, and arrows between you and him. That's where every MK seems to have the most trouble getting in. Learn every projectile has a set direction it goes. (Boomerang being the oddball. Just simply learn the distance it goes and know that it comes back.) It's like bobbing and weaving. Use the air, perfect shield, and rush in to close that distance as fast as you can. Learn all his little tricks so you're ready for them. (ie. quickdraw, double arrow, ibomb, etc.)

That seems to be everybody's biggest problem.

Now as far as when you close that distance it's kind of a guessing game where he gets a little reward and you get great rewards. Once you get here, nado ***** him especially airborn. If he's in the air, with no bomb. Nado. Just be aware of his dair and you're good to go. If you have his back against a ledge within a couple of character lengths they like to short hop away and come back in and zair. Free perfect shield to grab.

After grabs, dthrow has always been my personal favorite. Bthrow being a variation of I get them offstage. But after dthrow there's always a chance to follow up. Here it's a little difficult if you're not good at perfect shielding. They always usually tend to DI away and zair you. You can actually run at them and perfect shield that and get another free grab.

Another little thing if you get behind him and you're both shielding they tend to try and bair or nair off on your shield alot. If you wait for that it's usually a free grounded shuttle loop, nair or fair if you're fast enough. If they tend to just wait there in their shield, just grab them. Be careful of doing it if they're in front of you. They still have grab.

Also they have like no guaranteed kill setups. Period. No way to edgeguard you. Nothing. As long as you're smart and careful. Pay attention to your shield at high %'s. If they smash you at all, and they will, you can grab, tilt, dsmash, shuttle loop, whatever. Just keep your shield high enough so they don't shield poke you with some bull****. Especially bairs or nairs. It takes a while to kill you with DI but it'll kill you under 160ish if they don't stale it. Try staying grounded at high percents for the most part. In the air they try to fancy with that bomb to uair bull****. And I'm not having that.

Edgeguarding is as simple as getting a good dair in there. Problem is how. They usually pull a bomb then throw a boomerang up diagonally, fall towards the stage then upB. Just weave the boomerang with a job, remember it's coming back. Let it, then try to get a dair in between his jump and upB. It's really ****ing fast so it has to be practiced. But if you get a dair in and they're past 70ish it should be stock. Just remember their bomb will blow up and they get a free upB so get on stage by the ledge then just speed hug as he does his upB and you'll have invincibility frames and he falls to his death. Then you can chase after him and footstool him at the bottom.


Sorry if it's alot of ****. It's all pretty useful. Don't take percents I posted to an exact because it's been over a year since I've really really played the matchup. I did play J@sh at MLG and did most of this **** with ease. I know he has a little MK weakness though, so whatever. I may get some games in with J3rm this weekend, since imo he's been the hardest TL for MK I've played and been recently getting alot better. We'll see how I do.

vs TL I would try to go to a small stage so he has a lot less room to run away. Brinstar is probably the best, I'm not too sure about the others.

 

[KingJacob]

Thank you so much. I just won the small local tournament and won a decent amount of money. I did not have to play the Toon Link player though and he only got 4th. I still feel like he is the biggest threat at Baylor University, but he was having a bad day.

 

[Kaffei]

ok well come to Pound 5 and **** everyone plz <33333
hype

 

[BluePeachy100]

$250 mm, pound 5, one match, mk dittos, smashville.

 

[Staco]

Wolf is also a pretty tough MU for MK, if the Wolf knows what he is doing.
I feel like everyone with a good air mobility can give MK a challenge.

 

[V]

I think patient defense with well spaced walls beats practically every low tier character with ease. I'd really like to see the mk metagame shift this direction

 

[makoforce]

do luigi please

 

[Kaffei]

Wolf is also a pretty tough MU for MK, if the Wolf knows what he is doing.
I feel like everyone with a good air mobility can give MK a challenge.

I think Wario beats mk

or im just dumb


****
he's so fat but so fast **** ****

 

[V]

We need to discuss ness I hate fighting that little pr*ck

 

[Kaffei]

I've never really fought a good ness.. Idk I would just always throw them off stage and see how they recover and gimp them lol

 

[V]

I've never really fought a good ness.. Idk I would just always throw them off stage and see how they recover and gimp them lol

He's not that easy to gimp. Rising fair beats our aerials and the risk of getting hit by pkt2 isn't worth it with the chance of getting counter gimped. The best way is to time an edgehog. He can juggle us with pk thunder. Our biggest problem in this match is our transcending priority. We can't cancel his projectiles unless we shield so we're already limited to the ground. You have to PERFECTLY space a retreated fair to stop his fair that thing is crazy disjointed. M2K said FOW beat him 30% of the time. Shaky beats good MKs. I'm starting to think we don't have such a huge advantage on him. He seems to be able to punish a lot of things very well

 

[-LzR-]

Gliding is effective in this MU. Glide attack cancels his projectiles and leaves him open if he uses them. You will never get spiked, PKfire sucks, PKflash sucks, PSI magnet sucks... Thunder can be pain in the *** if he juggles you with it, it cannot be airdodge and our aerials won't cancel it.

 

[Kaffei]

He's not that easy to gimp. Rising fair beats our aerials and the risk of getting hit by pkt2 isn't worth it with the chance of getting counter gimped. The best way is to time an edgehog. He can juggle us with pk thunder. Our biggest problem in this match is our transcending priority. We can't cancel his projectiles unless we shield so we're already limited to the ground. You have to PERFECTLY space a retreated fair to stop his fair that thing is crazy disjointed. M2K said FOW beat him 30% of the time. Shaky beats good MKs. I'm starting to think we don't have such a huge advantage on him. He seems to be able to punish a lot of things very well

I think a lot of characters are underrated vs MK lol. I think MK is overrated sometimes

 

[Exdeath]

He's not that easy to gimp. Rising fair beats our aerials and the risk of getting hit by pkt2 isn't worth it with the chance of getting counter gimped. The best way is to time an edgehog. He can juggle us with pk thunder. Our biggest problem in this match is our transcending priority. We can't cancel his projectiles unless we shield so we're already limited to the ground. You have to PERFECTLY space a retreated fair to stop his fair that thing is crazy disjointed. M2K said FOW beat him 30% of the time. Shaky beats good MKs. I'm starting to think we don't have such a huge advantage on him. He seems to be able to punish a lot of things very well

Ness' Fair doesn't deal much damage or lead into any notable follow-ups if properly (S)DIed. It isn't a good idea to air dodge after being hit because Ness' reward for reading it is far out-weighed by the additional Fair you may take if he reads an attempted Fair (and is easier to punish). PKT2 can be spaced with Dair, is gimpable if MK is near the head (I've gimped Ness' Up-B by allowing it to hit me, canceling it with with B, Side-B, and Up-B -- which should hit you). At the start of Ness' Up-B when recovering, you can either Dair for a bad DI-gimp or just jump away if they're DIng the Dair and they won't recover properly. It's also extremely telegraphed -- you should know exactly where he's going and he'll generally be using one of two major trajectories; the ledge's sweet spot or above the ledge. If Ness is aiming to land on the stage if he misses the sweet spot, he will take longer than normal to get into position which will allow you to use an invincible-Nair. FFAD through Up-B in the opposite direction that it's traveling if Ness attempts to juggle with it.

Just power shield Side-B. If you get hit by Side-B and you are low, DI down and shield to PS it and then roll away. If you are high in the Side-B, just SDI upward and diagonally away from Ness so that he can't follow it up.

Be ready to DI down and away after Fthrow so that Ness can't follow it up with Up-B/Fair/etc. For kill percents, don't ever miss a tech/get foot stooled and at 110%+ don't get grabbed, which isn't too difficult. I occasionally bait Ness into grabbing me at the ledge by air dodging onto it so that Bthrow is stale. Bthrow is slow enough that you can mash-out and react to the throw in time to DI properly. If you space properly you shouldn't be hit by Fsmash unless your dash grab is hard read with a pivot Fsmash. When you're above Ness at kill percents, mix-up rising Dair with B and you should be able to make it back to the ledge.

Play safely and don't put yourself into obvious positions for being Daired when you're recovering (which you should always do beneath the stage. Be prepared for Ness to either aerial Side-B or Dair at you and punish accordingly with well-timed Down-B>whatever -- a grab is usually the best option -- and Up-B, respectively. Learn the timing/location for Up-Bing Ness' Dair off-stage; Meta Knight can Up-B Ness' Dair and trade, sending MK (if spaced properly) with upward corner DI toward the stage and Ness with downward corner DI away from the stage (death after ~20% if fresh). Get-up attack and ledge-release>Uair beat poorly spaced a stalling yo-yo smash at the ledge.

- Shaky experience in money matches.

 

[Orion*]

tornado > pk2 if your lazy also XD

 

[Exdeath]

tornado > pk2 if your lazy also XD

Ness would Nair out of B unless it was rising, in which case your position would allow you to either gimp him (off-stage) or grab him (on-stage).