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DDD Social: we livin' in smash 4

Technodeath

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I only have one Olimar to verse in my state in Australia.

I can handle him quite well with my Snake. Last I remember we're 1-1 in tournament sets. 1-2 in the first set, which I lost. And 2-0 in the second one, that I won :D

Nothing to really brag about, but I'm happy with my progress.
Seeing as I get no experience in between tournaments due to being 4 hours away.

All of my playing and strats and things, come from watching others play through youtube.
 

Dark 3nergy

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man if i ever developed a program to have that same effect for smash i would so i could study frame data...course..idk how the wii could or would handle that........................
 

Player-4

See you in 25 years
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http://www.youtube.com/user/JunMKK#p/a/u/2/e8xKNcS9v8w

omfg mk is annoying

this is a friendly btw

volume is really quiet cause i don't have my capture card right now

tech chase when am i supposed to answer the questions?
Don't let the bat ruin the game for you

That MK is horrible btw, some of the worst Nado's I've seen. If you punish MK hard (back throw is ******** good for this) for Nadoing you'll make him stop using it so much and figure out different ways to rack damage. You had a lot of opportunities to punish him but didn't. You're good at getting away from it, learn to pivot grab it or just simply evade and punish it.

Like I said you're good at avoiding it, just work on punishing Nado and the MU will become 10x's easier.
 

Coney

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Don't let the bat ruin the game for you

That MK is horrible btw, some of the worst Nado's I've seen. If you punish MK hard (back throw is ******** good for this) for Nadoing you'll make him stop using it so much and figure out different ways to rack damage. You had a lot of opportunities to punish him but didn't. You're good at getting away from it, learn to pivot grab it or just simply evade and punish it.

Like I said you're good at avoiding it, just work on punishing Nado and the MU will become 10x's easier.
i think the issue is that done smartly you can't really punish nado

look at the beginning of the video: he's powershielding it, but ddd isn't fast enough to chase a retreating nado. he's caught out of a pivot when the mk nados again. he tries to utilt, but the mk just waits and attacks during lag. he tries to inhale, and gets nado'd. he's standing on a platform, mk goes under and nados.

the point is, pretty much all of those nados were safe. could he have punished them better? well, yeah, but it would've taken massive foresight to do so.

evading nado is easy; consistently punishing it is nigh impossible, if the MK knows what he's doing.

watching the vid now, there were only a few parts where junk really could've punished nado...and it would've taken near-psychic abilities, both performing the utilt and doing it perfectly on time so that it breaks nado. also lol @ utilting grounded nado, stopping it, and getting dsmashed in the lag. **** metaknight.
 

Dark 3nergy

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Don't let the bat ruin the game for you

That MK is horrible btw, some of the worst Nado's I've seen. If you punish MK hard (back throw is ******** good for this) for Nadoing you'll make him stop using it so much and figure out different ways to rack damage. You had a lot of opportunities to punish him but didn't. You're good at getting away from it, learn to pivot grab it or just simply evade and punish it.

Like I said you're good at avoiding it, just work on punishing Nado and the MU will become 10x's easier.
thing is he didnt even stop nadoing even after he got punished[see what coney said]

this isnt a friendly its torture, and a waste of training time
 

Coney

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think of it this way: an MK that nados 100% of the time will be awful, as we'll always know what he's doing. we can prepare and maneuver and get around and yadda yadda

an MK that nados 85% of the time will completely decimate us, as we have to take severe preventive measures from getting nado'd. go for an ftilt? dair? sh bair? all will get eaten up and then put you above him (unless you're lucky and get out, which is a GREAT feeling) for more damage
 

Player-4

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i think the issue is that done smartly you can't really punish nado

look at the beginning of the video: he's powershielding it, but ddd isn't fast enough to chase a retreating nado. he's caught out of a pivot when the mk nados again. he tries to utilt, but the mk just waits and attacks during lag. he tries to inhale, and gets nado'd. he's standing on a platform, mk goes under and nados.

the point is, pretty much all of those nados were safe. could he have punished them better? well, yeah, but it would've taken massive foresight to do so.

evading nado is easy; consistently punishing it is nigh impossible, if the MK knows what he's doing.

watching the vid now, there were only a few parts where junk really could've punished nado...and it would've taken near-psychic abilities, both performing the utilt and doing it perfectly on time so that it breaks nado. also lol @ utilting grounded nado, stopping it, and getting dsmashed in the lag. **** metaknight.
Punish MK on landing from Nado, that's what I'm talking about, from the looks of that MK he didn't really know what to do after hitting the ground from Nado. Out run it, shield it, evade it, then punish the land. I know people say "oh don't punish MKs Nado land", that's just dumb. More often then not you can punish it, and that's what I didn't see Junk doing. He didn't need psychic reading abilities to get around those bad Nados.

I mean don't get me wrong, I know Nado wrecks D3 (I do main MK btw). I'm just saying for that MK and most scrub MKs, good players like Junk should be getting around ****ty Nados like those.

thing is he didnt even stop nadoing even after he got punished[see what coney said]

this isnt a friendly its torture, and a waste of training time
He wasn't really punishing much, that's why he continued. Punish him for Nado 3 times with back throw and you have roughly 45% on him now (while taking little to no damage from Nado). Anyone with half a brain will begin to try something else, and if he doesn't just continue what you're doing.
 

Coney

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Punish MK on landing from Nado, that's what I'm talking about, from the looks of that MK he didn't really know what to do after hitting the ground from Nado. Out run it, shield it, evade it, then punish the land. I know people say "oh don't punish MKs Nado land", that's just dumb. More often then not you can punish it, and that's what I didn't see Junk doing. He didn't need psychic reading abilities to get around those bad Nados.

I mean don't get me wrong, I know Nado wrecks D3 (I do main MK btw). I'm just saying for that MK and most scrub MKs, good players like Junk should be getting around ****ty Nados like those.
there's lagless nado, though...i don't remember if the MK there was doing it or not but, i think all ddds are conditioned to respect nado afterward just because MK touches the ground and is free to do whatever he wants. he can lagless nado into a shuttle loop for invincibility. he can roll behind us if we dash at him, or roll away if we're expecting him to stay there, or ftilt to cover pretty much everything. in regards to retreating nado, we literally can't get to it in time unless we get a roll off riiight before the end of it, and even then it's a gamble. if an MK retreats to a platform above us, we can only fair...and that has so many frames, he'll come out of the lag fast enough to powershield.

the best we can do when they hit the ground, really, is dash attack and hope they spotdodge, or run up and shield and hope they dsmash, but the point is you can't punish the nado itself, only the reaction after the nado. it's like some of falco's moves; you don't punish the lag of the move, only the lag on the opponent's reaction when in a bad position after the move. but you know what goes best out of this situation?
another nado.
 

Player-4

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I agree with you, but I didn't see that MK do any lagless Nados (from what I remember). Even from lagless Nados just watch their habits, if they're good about getting away with lagless Nados with their follow ups then obviously don't try to punish it, but if they're not then go up and shield and obvious Dsmash or whatever fast grounded move they do. Even if they GSL then just PS or simple shield it and punish the loop or FF cancel.

And if he retreats with Nado, throw some Waddles, they may not hit but it can be distracting or give you cover to punish his shield or spot dodge. It can pay off.
 

Dark 3nergy

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player 4 ur not listening to me and coney

DDD has extremely limited options versus nado, we cant do very much period. So yes in short MKs can get away with nadoing as much as they want-- it doesnt matter what kind it is, he has more options out of it then DDD will ever have


Dee toss can be pshielded and dash grabbed from the lag it has........hell everything DDD has on the ground can be pshielded/DI'ed out of and punished by mk
 

The Phazon Assassin

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I remember I DI'ed out of nado once. I dropped the controller, walked away, and declared myself a winner for not only that match, but for every subsequent match I played that day.
 

Player-4

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Lol I don't think you guys are listening to me, I'm just trying to help. I understand how it goes with MK and Nado, I'm just trying to give you guys the best possible solutions (that I can think of). Sorry for trying to help :(
 

∫unk

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yeah i could have reacted faster grabbing... tbh it was my first time dealing with a mk where i had to multiple powershield. but it's HARD to guess which side he's going to land on me when he finishes his nado high. and he does it so he can buffer spotdodge or d-smash so it's not like i can just go for punishments.

and i think most of those tornado's were actually unpunishable... as he was retreating them? i don't really see what i could have done. the ones where he did land near me i could do something but it's a guessing game... if i don't think he's going to retreat i have to hold shield, but then if he does retreat i not only sacrificed a little bit of extra shield, but i may have given away a chance to f-tilt them

btw the only ones that tornado any better than this guy are top MK's (havok, tyrant, etc.) every other mk i play on the WC sucks balls at tornado (including myself)... he did it in a way where i couldn't u-tilt or f-tilt it (he starts grounded then goes aerial or he stays aerial and i have to guess, if he starts grounded and i clank with it he can buffer d-smash before i can do anything), so i basically had to shield.... if i did ps he either went away (where i couldn't punish) or he stayed there

however, i would like to improve, so player-4, can you tell me EXACTLY which nado's were punishable and i failed to punish? keep in mind nado lasts a long time and even a 70% ddd shield can't stop a full nado (unless i ps, but then he pulls off and goes back on, that's why i need to double or sometimes triple powershield)

i also think what this MK could definitely do better is air chase me harder and use shuttle loop better, but regardless this is a very good approach to the matchup as MK. this person doesn't main MK!!!
 

Fogo

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DDD has extremely limited options versus nado...
DE, I just wanted to say I love you. <3

As for the quote, yup. That's why don't play that matchup now :(

Honestly at the top level of play I think we all need to learn a new char for MK.

*Side note: We've been having this convo for almost a year now Lmao

*Side note#2: Ilike2playdaydayday.
 

Albert.

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Yo This thread has probably progressed since I started... but I noticed a lot of missed punishes when I watched it last night.

I've already started a critiqute... I only mean to be helpful. It seemed like the endless nado's were tiring you out, Jun(k), and thats completely understandable.
 

Albert.

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0:21 you could have retreating Bair'd when he landed on the platform. The only reason you couldn't punish his landing lag was because you were in spotdodge yourself, and you did that of course to conserve shield.

:44 why didn't you try grabbing after his Nair? Can MK just Dair away? this reminds me of something that Kadaj was saying(regarding Marth v MK) ... "none of MKs aerials are safe on block vs marth" and then Mike confirmed it like "yes, but you have to be consistent with your execution"
If DDD can't grab or do anything after a spaced/retreating Nair, then that does NOT bode well xD

1:20 This isn't critique... But its SO STUPID that Utilt will cancel nado out but he still has massive frame advantage. Sometimes I just wonder like "Why are we all still playing a game with such s***y programing?

Nice Dtilt kill

mark my words, this fellow is GOOD at safe Nado'ing...

Anyway

3:15
You couldn't smell the Dsmash coming? I think you could have punished him for existing here.

4:08 you got lucky, cause you should have missed it.

What are DDD's options when he gets Dsmashed from behind?

6:25




BTW I actually like the idea of throwing some Waddles out... The electric ones could disrupt s***, idk

Also, I LOVE what coney said about falco: "you're not punishing falco for his lag you're punishing the player's reflexes" or something

EDIT: BLERGGGG double post xD

Anyway Jun(k) I think you played pretty well!!
 

∫unk

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good critique i agree with what you said

about waddles... on a small stage like bf they're really risky cause he can nado on response and swallow up my waddle and hit me before i can do anything

waddle toss is really laggy but don't tell anyone
 

Dark 3nergy

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waddle toss is really laggy but don't tell anyone
this is why i prefer using it air brone or to make traps, out of reads


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyWNLrsOJRU#t=8m33s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyWNLrsOJRU#t=8m57s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzOVwmUL4UQ#t=1m19s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DzOVwmUL4UQ#t=1m52s

^^^@ 2:00 i pull a gordo LOL

also wow@ bolding powershielding. a guy told me you hella loved powershielding but i didnt think that much lol
yea i could also pick up a few tips from u w/ pshielding imo i need to keep religiously doing it since pshielding works

Lol I don't think you guys are listening to me, I'm just trying to help. I understand how it goes with MK and Nado, I'm just trying to give you guys the best possible solutions (that I can think of). Sorry for trying to help :(
daw we've been rattling our brains over it already its just theres no completely safe n reliable way to wax the nadoing ***

DE, I just wanted to say I love you. <3

As for the quote, yup. That's why don't play that matchup now :(

Honestly at the top level of play I think we all need to learn a new char for MK.

*Side note: We've been having this convo for almost a year now Lmao

*Side note#2: Ilike2playdaydayday.
i'll play all of DDDs mu's prolly except that one, no one to practice mk around here with so i'll just go snake

you'll love me more once my new ddd plush comes in:):):):):):):)
 

Player-4

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Alright Junk, here's what I see, usually noobs and even good/pro MKs don't Tornado all that well. When MKs do retreating Nados, run after them as they're still Nadoing, you'll be surprised at how many MKs still continue retreating thinking they'll get away. So run after them and be PS ready and you can punish that. Even if it's just a few steps so you can Ftilt them, don't be afraid to approach a retreating Tornado.

0:21 - You coulda Utilted his land on the platform

0:30 - Do a rising Dair if he's gonna come at you from below with Nado

0:35 - MKs usually try to land behind their opponent 9/10 when ending Nado, so a turn around grab would have been good if you hadn't gotten hit by the last part of Nado

1:07 - I liked that, that's basically what I'm saying you need to do majority of the time

1:13 - You just stood there lol, throw a Waddle

1:18 - I know it was hard to predict him ending the Nado early, but you could have pivot grabbed him

1:23 - I think people are saying Utilt clanked with Nado here? If so, that's wrong, he just stopped the Nado short. Utilt outright beats Nado.

1:40 - Could have grabbed or tilted

2:15 - Should have thrown a Waddle

2:21 - Again he landed behind you

2:40-50 - You had a good little run against Nado, that's the main style you need to adopt when fighting it

2:53-58 - He did a couple of retreating Nados which I mentioned you should try chasing, or run away and throw Waddles

3:16 - Noticed he tried to land behind you again with Nado? ;)

3:42 - That was a **** up on his part which made you misread

3:45 - Waddle

6:24 - Idk what that was, he was either dead or barely getting back on stage, you really could have punished that below stage Nado hard instead of getting hit by it


That's pretty much all I've got. I only touched on Nado and the punishable ones. Hope it helps :)
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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Junk, I will PM you the questions tomorrow. I want to wait one more day to see if anyone else will ask questions (plus I need to ask you some lol). Sorry, I've just been insanely busy with work lately. We're shortstaffed and being the manager means I have to be Superman
:(

 

∫unk

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actually u tilt doesnt out right beat nado p4 lol thats only bad nados im on my phone so i cant comment on the critique as well as id like but just based off reading...

u tilt overall loses to nado due to how easy it is to bait and punish on top of it clanking with nado where youre in lag so he gets a free hit. dont believe me? test it yourself. make sure both player are buffering off the clank.

one time he did stop it stop it in front of me but that was after the clanking one.

also i agree that i can chase him better but sometimes i couldnt cause my shield was too low and ddd is too slow he could just hit b again (grounded) and i dont have a good response. and i appreciate the help its odd for an mk to help a ddd out :p

okay tc thanks
 

Coney

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Also, I LOVE what coney said about falco: "you're not punishing falco for his lag you're punishing the player's reflexes" or something
the more i play falco and some of our other bad MUs, the more i think this is true

at high levels against some characters, you literally can't be arsed to punish the moves themselves, it's too difficult; rather, you let them do the move, and when it puts them in bad position afterward you wait for their response

when falco side-b's past me and i powershield it, i can't just grab him because he'll spotdodge. so instead i sit in my shield, and wait for the spotdodge or roll or something. if i space it right he has to turn around and dashgrab since his range sucks, so i can grab him first. anything else gets shielded, and i can punish

ddd is too slow to punish some moves...but he's an intimidating mother****er who can force a reaction on literally every character
 

Player-4

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actually u tilt doesnt out right beat nado p4 lol thats only bad nados im on my phone so i cant comment on the critique as well as id like but just based off reading...

u tilt overall loses to nado due to how easy it is to bait and punish on top of it clanking with nado where youre in lag so he gets a free hit. dont believe me? test it yourself. make sure both player are buffering off the clank.

one time he did stop it stop it in front of me but that was after the clanking one.

also i agree that i can chase him better but sometimes i couldnt cause my shield was too low and ddd is too slow he could just hit b again (grounded) and i dont have a good response. and i appreciate the help its odd for an mk to help a ddd out :p

okay tc thanks
Lol I'm just trying to help because I'm a nice guy :)

Plus I hate to see people lose to scrubby MKs who just abuse certain broken aspects and don't actually play the game with their head :p
 

Dark 3nergy

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the other thing about utilt is this phenomena called overshoot

its an animation term that means extreme movement exaggeration, many moves in brawl have some sort of exaggeration to them. Why? Disjoints and making it alittle safer to hit people;

examples; ness jab, marios jab, wolfs fsmash, DKs fsmash, DDDs utilt, DDDs bair, DDDs dtilt etc

in terms of nadoing this simply means, the disjoints hit DDD first more often because his head is enlarged this cancels the hit boxes and DDD goes into hitstun animation. Why does it hit first? Simple, go to picto chat and try utilt'ing the picketed spikes that come off the platform. DDD will get hit by the hit box of the spike. Try CGing someone when the roller coaster hazard spawns, it wont work because the coaster will hit DDDs hurtbox as he lifts his body up from the dthrow animation

hopefully ppl that play DDD can really fully understand what im saying because if you dont your gonna end up making the same mistakes f1zzle's DDD made against speed in bracket
 

ZTD | TECHnology

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When Mario's fist enlarges because of Forward Air we call it the Chris Brown and we pretend the opponent is Rihanna LOL

On a more serious note I know exactly what you are talking about. Particularly with Up-Tilt. I have often times over estimated the range because of the overshoot that the animations on those moves produce. Thats why I just dont try to punish Tornado with Up-Tilt anymore lol
 
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