Counterpicking Made Peachy

[deepseadiva]

why ban norfair?

Ivysaur

also what about lm as a cp too?

I was thinking about it, I dunno.

It's a naturally good Peach stage, but I have no idea about PT.

 

[Razmakazi]

the ceiling would most likely make things worse for pt as well as its semi-******** ledge. that being said pokemon stadium 1 and 2 shud be just fine for the same reasons. also the 2nd PS is a lot easier for peach to get around on coz of the glide tosses on the ice and the floating over the treadmills. ;o

 

[Praxis]

Japes should **** Ivysaur badly I would imagine. Tall ceiling + water to **** tethers.

Also, I missed the ROB discussion, but I've got a lot of experience with this. ALWAYS pick Green Greens without question. Think about it for a second. The center gives you an enormous defensive advantage, as you can utilt through the platforms. Now, what gives Peach the advantage on ROB? She can dair his shield all day as he cannot punish at certain angles. The bottom section blocks ROB in and lets you beat on him.

So what's the proper thing for ROB to do to combat Peach? Camp her to death, usually by staying offstage half the match. Except on Green Greens, being offstage means Peach's fair kills at 20%.

With ROB's size, Fair shieldpokes and usmash is easy to sweetspot. Peach kills ROB ridiculously fast on Greens, his ability to camp is diminished and dangerous because of the short sides, and the blocks block his gyro- overall, everything about it completely ***** him.

 

[Xyless]

Japes should **** Ivysaur badly I would imagine. Tall ceiling + water to **** tethers.

Also, I missed the ROB discussion, but I've got a lot of experience with this. ALWAYS pick Green Greens without question. Think about it for a second. The center gives you an enormous defensive advantage, as you can utilt through the platforms. Now, what gives Peach the advantage on ROB? She can dair his shield all day as he cannot punish at certain angles. The bottom section blocks ROB in and lets you beat on him.

So what's the proper thing for ROB to do to combat Peach? Camp her to death, usually by staying offstage half the match. Except on Green Greens, being offstage means Peach's fair kills at 20%.

With ROB's size, Fair shieldpokes and usmash is easy to sweetspot. Peach kills ROB ridiculously fast on Greens, his ability to camp is diminished and dangerous because of the short sides, and the blocks block his gyro- overall, everything about it completely ***** him.

My roommate refuses to believe that Peach has the upper hand over ROB in GG, since the blocks set up a wall lock. I beat him there 4/5 times though (since the people around here never go to GG)

 

[Praxis]

My roommate refuses to believe that Peach has the upper hand over ROB in GG, since the blocks set up a wall lock. I beat him there 4/5 times though (since the people around here never go to GG)

I have never, ever allowed myself to get bair locked by ROB there. The setup required is too precise (too close and ROB destroys the blocks) and thanks to Peach's float there's no reason she ever has to be in the corner.

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Take Pokémon Trainer to anywhere that requires you to walk diagonally. It's an instant free win

 

[deepseadiva]

Take Pokémon Trainer to anywhere that requires you to walk diagonally. It's an instant free win

Like... Distant Planet? Yoshi's Island Melee? Whyies?

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

/facepalm

It was a joke

In the Pokémon games (or at least in the proper 2D ones), characters can't walk diagonally - they can only walk up, down, left and right

:/

 

[deepseadiva]

You know what Rick.

You're a dork.

 

[Sky`]

Lmao.
/10char

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

...

That hurt me real bad Meno

In other news
http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=218213
Rofl at the title

Ban Corneria...as always. Getting hit by Lucas' Up Smash on that stage would be horrible

Counterpick...erm...Yoshi's Island Melee? If he falls down the middle part and somehow loses his 2nd jump/hits one of the blocks when jumping back up, he's toast

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Lucas loves loves loves Norfair and Brinstar since they complement his spacing game rather well. He fares well on Luigi's Mansion against some characters due to the close quarters and lack of aerial space, but Peach doesn't need a lot of it because of her float. If Peach can still do her float stunts on the bottom level, then it shouldn't be a big deal, but if the stage hinders her at all you may have issues.

He dislikes Yoshi's Island (Brawl) because the uneven terrain messes up his autocancelling and can cause a little mayhem with proper PK Fire spacing. The Support Ghost can also eat PK Thunder if it decides to appear while we're recovering and recovering straight up against the side of the stage is a pain in the <censored> either way. IMO at least. Lylat Cruise is hard on him for similar reasons, except replace the Support Ghost with moving ledges. (I personally don't think it's that big of a deal since we have a tether, but w/e.) The platforms are at just the right height to get in the way if we're trying to approach you on ground level from the air. Against superior campers, Lucas dislikes Final Destination since there's nothing between him and projectile spam, but I don't think that's a huge issue when fighting Peach. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Rickerdy: We can also absorb the Arwing's shots with PSI Magnet for free health. I have almost zero experience with Yoshi's Island Melee, so I can't properly answer to that.

 

[~Pink Fresh~]

Lucas loves loves loves Norfair and Brinstar since they complement his spacing game rather well. He fares well on Luigi's Mansion against some characters due to the close quarters and lack of aerial space, but Peach doesn't need a lot of it because of her float. If Peach can still do her float stunts on the bottom level, then it shouldn't be a big deal, but if the stage hinders her at all you may have issues.

He dislikes Yoshi's Island (Brawl) because the uneven terrain messes up his autocancelling and can cause a little mayhem with proper PK Fire spacing. The Support Ghost can also eat PK Thunder if it decides to appear while we're recovering and recovering straight up against the side of the stage is a pain in the <censored> either way. IMO at least. Lylat Cruise is hard on him for similar reasons, except replace the Support Ghost with moving ledges. (I personally don't think it's that big of a deal since we have a tether, but w/e.) The platforms are at just the right height to get in the way if we're trying to approach you on ground level from the air. Against superior campers, Lucas dislikes Final Destination since there's nothing between him and projectile spam, but I don't think that's a huge issue when fighting Peach. Correct me if I'm wrong?

Rickerdy: We can also absorb the Arwing's shots with PSI Magnet for free health. I have almost zero experience with Yoshi's Island Melee, so I can't properly answer to that.

This.

10stages

 

[Irsic]

I'm waiting for Xyless to jump in on this one since me and him play all the time.

...But since we're here: Peach's worst neutral stage against Lucas -> Final Destination. Lots of room, easy to camp.

Lucas' best stages are Brinstar, Norfair, and Luigi's Mansion can be a pretty good stage, unless you're amazing at it, the you can probably beat Lucas out on this one.

 

[Airgemini]

Lol this thread is amazing when you're doing AiB ladder matches.

 

[deepseadiva]

Updated for Ness.

This is going to be hard.

 

[Airgemini]

PS1.
3 out of the 4 stage transformations allows you to possibly tech a Bthrow (Wall on Rock, Windmill on water, and Tree on fire).

JJs is good because his only KO move that I see is threatening is Bthrow.

Luigi's Mansion.
If you stay on the first level you dont have to fear Bthrows, pillars help with PK fire, and the floors limits his aerial game somewhat.

Try to find stages where its easy to tech.

 

[deepseadiva]

Luigi's Mansion.
If you stay on the first level you dont have to fear Bthrows, pillars help with PK fire, and the floors limits his aerial game somewhat.

This is actually his counterpick.

While the ceiling will help with surviving, it gives him free PK Fire walls, a ground floor to hide in when spamming PK Thunders, and while his aerial movement is restricted somewhat - he doesn't need that much to begin with, that fair has huge range.

I'd ban it.

 

[Airgemini]

What about the other stages I listed??? D=

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

You cannot grasp the true form of Ness' counterpicks!

Hmm....ban Corneria? Then again, that's generally a bad Peach stage anyway and it's said all the time by me :/ Counterpick Jungle Japes? :/

Would Yoshi's Island Melee be a good counterpick? If he gets stuck underneath the yellow blocks in the middle he's screwed and...would it be possible to DI sharply horizontally from his B Throw to tech against the slanted pipe/hill?

 

[Niko_K]

Go to Castle Seige or Delphino, jab CG him off the edge.

<3 Praxis.

 

[Canvasofgrey]

I agree that Delfino is definitely the stage for a Peach advantage against Ness

 

[deepseadiva]

Go to Castle Seige or Delphino, jab CG him off the edge.

<3 Praxis.

Delphino might not be perfect. The go-through floor helps his recovery a good bit. Plus he has all those other water spiking shenanigans.

What are other stages with walls or walkoffs?

PS1, Corneria, Distant Planet, Green Hill Zone, Yoshi's Island (Melee), Green Greens, Mario Circuit, and Onett are all counter-ban and above.

I'd recommend the ones in blue - the rest have some problems, such as close blast zones.

Circuit would be so cruel...

 

[Razmakazi]

ness is amazing on delphino, and a ness is bound to cp it on you so it'd be a waste. castle siege works though coz of the walk-offs, the statues for bombers and blocking his pk fire. japes is pretty **** coz japes is japes.

as for bans i'd prolly ban brinstar coz he can outcamp you here, his recovery is safer, his aerial game is just as good as ours, and he kills better vertically but it might not be as ban as it sounds but still. If that ******** corneria stage is legal then i'd ban that.

 

[Praxis]

Ness is great on Delfino, so I dunno if it's a safe counterpick- unless you do what I did, and refrained from using the CG on him the first match, so he'll be lax about getting grabbed and then shocked when you CG him off the ledge.
>-]

Hopefully, they'll pick Delfino on YOU and save you the trouble. But if you find they're not hard to get a grab on, it's worth a shot.

Castle Seige might be better, but iono.

I like Japes against Ness because you can DI his throws to live and he has to rush his recovery with up-B so he doesn't hit the water, putting him in clear turnip sniping zone. But Ness players seem to normally like Japes, so once again...it's a very good Peach AND very good Ness stage. I think Japes is better for Peach than for Ness though.

 

[deepseadiva]

We completly missed walkoffs for Lucas's discussion. T__T

 

[:mad:]

-lurklurk-
Keep talking, guys. Err, girls.

 

[deepseadiva]

Ness
- You can chaingrab Ness; abuse this by counterpicking walls and walkoffs.
- Be aware that PK Fire can be used on stage objects, such as the pillars on Luigi's Mansion, to create a damaging fire wall.
- While risky, Ness is also capable of absorbing the lasers on Corneria.
- Using his PK Thunder and dair spike, Ness has the option of water camping on Pirate Ship. Retaliate, and avoid spikes, by Jesuswalking.

Note the last note.

While I've never encountered Thunder camping myself, I've seen it do very horrible horrible things. It's worse then planking for most of the cast.

Fortunately, we have Jesuswalking - so we have the option of retaliating with fairs, maybe even infinite dairs like Praxis suggested once.

 

[Airgemini]

Whats planking?
And jesus walking lol.

 

[deepseadiva]

Whats planking?

Planking? It's when you abuse the invincibility frames on the ledge. Like camping.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1IzXR3W-f2I

 

[BentoBox]

Bowser
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield
Ban: Norfair

Captain Falcon
Counterpick:
Ban:

Diddy Kong
Counterpick: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi's Island, Norfair
Ban: Final Destination

Donkey Kong
Counterpick: Yoshi's Island, Battlefield, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon
Ban: Lylat Cruise, Jungle Japes, Brinstar

Falco
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise, Luigi's Mansion, Lylat Cruise, Castle Siege, Pokemon Stadium 1, Brinstar
Ban: Jungle Japes

Fox
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Pokemon Stadium 1, Lylat Cruise
Ban: Final Destination, Halberd

Game & Watch
Counterpick:, Yoshi's Island
Ban: Rainbow Cruise

Ganondorf
Counterpick:
Ban: Pirate Ship

Ice Climbers
Counterpick: Brinstar, Rainbow Cruise, Delfino Plaza
Ban: Final Destination

Ike
Counterpick:
Ban: Corneria, Pirate Ship

Jigglypuff
Counterpick:
Ban: Delfino Plaza

King Dedede
Counterpick: Norfair, Rainbow Cruise, Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Jungle Japes
Ban:Delfino Plaza, Final Destination, Halberd

Kirby
Counterpick: Lylat Cruise, Battlefield
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Brinstar

Link
Counterpick:
Ban: Rainbow Cruise

Lucario
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise
Ban:Frigate Orpheon, Yoshi's Island, Final Destination

Lucas
Counterpick: Yoshi's Island, Lylat Cruise, Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege
Ban: Norfair, Brinstar, Final Destination

Luigi
Counterpick:
Ban: Battlefield

Mario
Counterpick: Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Battlefield

Marth
Counterpick: Brinstar, Frigate Orpheon, Jungle Japes, Yoshi's Island, Final Destination
Ban: Battlefield, Lylat Cruise, Norfair,Halberd

Meta Knight
Counterpick:Halberd, Norfair
Ban:Rainbow Cruise, Battlefield, Final Destination

Ness
Counterpick: Pokemon Stadium 1, Jungle Japes, Delfino Plaza
Ban: Norfair, Pirate Ship, Brinstar

Olimar
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise, Frigate Orpheon, Delfino Plaza
Ban: Norfair, Lylat Cruise

Pikachu
Counterpick:Brinstar,Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Final Destination

Pit
Counterpick: Pokemon Stadium 1, Yoshi's Island, Castle Siege
Ban: Norfair, Lylat Cruise, Final Destination, Battlefield, Delfino Plaza, Halberd

Pokemon Trainer
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Norfair, Castle Siege

R.O.B.
Counterpick: Brinstar, Norfair, Battlefield
Ban: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon, Final Destination, Lylat Cruise

Samus
Counterpick:
Ban: Final Destination

:shiek: Sheik
Counterpick: Luigi's Mansion, Jungle Japes
Ban: Battlefield, Halberd, Norfair

Snake
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Final Destination, Delfino Plaza, Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Halberd, Smashville

Sonic
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion, Battlefield
Ban: Corneria

Toon Link
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Luigi's Mansion
Ban: Rainbow Cruise, Norfair, Halberd

Wario
Counterpick: Final Destination
Ban: Battlefield

Wolf
Counterpick:
Ban: Smashville

Yoshi
Counterpick: Jungle Japes
Ban: Delfino Plaza, Castle Siege

Zelda
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Frigate Orpheon
Ban: Battlefield, Luigi's Mansion, Smashville, Castle Siege

Zamus
Counterpick: Jungle Japes, Brinstar, Castle Siege, Rainbow Cruise
Ban: Pokemon Stadium 1, Battlefield

Seeing as the recommended ruleset is more and more restrictive, these are the only relevant map in my case~ And why exactly would you ban Rainbow Cruise against Link? XD

 

[Airgemini]

Lol why would you ban that against Link????
Lol.

 

[deepseadiva]

Seeing as the recommended ruleset is more and more restrictive, these are the only relevant map in my case~ And why exactly would you ban Rainbow Cruise against Link? XD

I think it'd be better to finish the list first, then narrow them down once we're done.

Just to have the options there.

And RC is banned against Link because the Link boards consider it one of his better stages - I needed a filler.

 

[deepseadiva]

In the mean time we wrap up the Ness discussion, let's finish another character:

WA-WA-WARIO!

I'm thinking anything devoid of grab-release-saving platforms, and something that constricts his aerial movement.

Luigi's Mansion is amazing. ^^

 

[Razmakazi]

Mansion wrecks Wario but it'll probably be banned by your opponent so...I'd probably just go Final Destination b/c of lack of platforms...or actually on second thought, Yoshi's Island wouldn't be a bad choice either. Depending on where you send him offstage it might make his recovery more predictable since there's no way Wario is gonna wanna bike into the wall and die. Brinstar is like my favorite cp ever also but Wario is pretty good there too. Depends on how comfortable you are there imo since he can kill you really easily w/ a fart or fsmash. Go to Smashville if ya have to...idk, mansion is the only stage that really sticks it to him. ;x Well...that's all I got. @_@

 

[Rickerdy-doo-da-day]

Luigi's Mansion wrecks Wario? O.o

I would have thought it'd be a great stage. More space for him to run around and camp...and whilst the pillars are there, refresh his moves and increase the time his already silly hitboxes are out for

Anyways - Ban stages that have platforms, name Battlefield and Lylat Cruise. Counterpick something like Final Destination. Smashville...meh, it's ok but when you've finally got a grab release on Wario and that ruddy moving platform floats by and Wario jumps up onto that so you can't Up Smash him, you'll be seriously annoyed

Your kind of limited to what you can CP against Wario because he does ok on most stages

 

[deepseadiva]

That'd only be if he gets the lead - Peach works better in the confined areas than Wario does. He's gonna miss that air space.

If worst comes to worse, just destroy the house and get a temporary Final D, then grab the sonvabetch.

 

[Praxis]

i Think It'd Be Better To Finish The List First, Then Narrow Them Down Once We're Done.

Just To Have The Options There.

And Rc Is Banned Against Link Because The Link Boards Consider It One Of His Better Stages - I Needed A Filler.

Ban Norfair against Link.
Deva lives here.
BAN FREAKING NORFAIR OR DIE.

 

[Praxis]

Also, take Wario to FD and grab release to footstool him xD infinites FTW.

 

[Airgemini]

Why would LM be good against Wario?
He would live even longer and the grab release > Usmash would be useless if the mansion isnt destroyed any you're on the bottom floor.