CoRNERIA

[Merkuri]

@Smasher69: Yeah and Shine is **** on Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar as well. I already pointed out why camping isn't a big deal on big blue, even more so because the fox can simply run from one end of the stage to the other like he can on a lot of stages. Peach and Puff are no better on Big Blue than they are on Rainbow Cruise.

As for teching on the track something people don't know is that if your character falls over on the track he isn't whisked away. As long as you don't tech and don't move you won't be moved away. Once you hit the ground you can just get up normally and jump to safety, you can even stay on the ground for an extended period until you see somewhere you are comfortable jumping to.

I think people just assumed that the stage was just one big hazard instead of trying it out see if the stage was fir for competitive play.

@Kanelol: Never tech on the track.

 

[X1-12]

This must be coming from someone who almost never plays on Big Blue, when you hit the track, all you do is jump and you'll live, and when you do jump you are not often ''moved to an area of track with no cars for you to land on''; 95% of the times they are cars accessible at all area on the stage, including the very back which are all very easy to land on.

As for rainbow cruise the boundaries of platforms are clear because people are familiar with the stage, logistically the boundaries of the platforms/cars are no different on rainbow cruise as they are on Big Blue, the boundaries just don't seem clear to you because you are unfamiliar with the stage. And unlike in Big Blue on Rainbow Cruise the platforms reappear and disappear making them additionally hazardous, it's not as easy to deal with as you suggest. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3gg-cTIYwEU check out 1:15


On BB when you fall on to the track all you have to do is jump and you can land on the immediately available cars behind and in front of you. That is far less dangerous than on Rainbow Cruise when you may be recovering to a disappearing platform, a swinging platform, a platform that drops if you keep on standing on it, etc. Moreover RC moves much faster than Big Blue making it easier for the invisible wall to kill you. I'm not saying RC isn't playable I'm just saying Big Blue is a less hazardous stage. Try to be open minded about it.

Admittedly I do very rarely play on big blue, but from what I notice its still horrific, it also massively cuts down movement capabilities for luigi and other characters who rely on WDing, as on the cars its not safe to WD across, as you cannot always tell if there is a gap between cars, even if you can you often cannot WD across it. When I say the boundaries are clear its because the platforms are black/red edged on a blue background, they are also nearly all flat all the way along (save the swinging platform(which is still easily predictable)), meaning you can easily tell where the edges are, but on BB the cars are oddly shaped, and some have parts sticking out the front of them which you cannot stand on. The platforms on RC also do not move about in relation to each other, unlike the ones in BB

 

[KAOSTAR]

Lol @ Merkuri. There is no way that RC is worse than big blue.

 

[_Keno_]

imo, rainbow cruise and jungle should be cp.

Corneria and Mute city are kinda questionable, but either they should both be banned or neither be banned. Not just one and not the other.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

In my opinion, your opinion doesn't matter.

 

[Silent Wolf]

As for teching on the track something people don't know is that if your character falls over on the track he isn't whisked away. As long as you don't tech and don't move you won't be moved away. Once you hit the ground you can just get up normally and jump to safety, you can even stay on the ground for an extended period until you see somewhere you are comfortable jumping to.

I think people just assumed that the stage was just one big hazard instead of trying it out see if the stage was fir for competitive play.

@Kanelol: Never tech on the track.

You don't die if you land on the track so long as you land from the right side of the stage. That makes the right side alone what you would call tournament legal, not the whole stage. Unless the whole stage is fair, the stage should not be legal. Even if you do happen to land on the track and survive it puts you at a severe disadvantage. So with half the stage being severely unfair and the other half being too gimmicky, the stage should not be allowed. Nobody wants to play on that stage in a tournament anyways. If you want to play it, go play free for alls with your friends on it or something.

imo, rainbow cruise and jungle should be cp.

Corneria and Mute city are kinda questionable, but either they should both be banned or neither be banned. Not just one and not the other.

dont bother giving input if you dont include reasoning to back it up.

 

[THeDarKnesS]

Dont forget to turn items on.

 

[Keblerelf]

@Smasher69: Yeah and Shine is **** on Rainbow Cruise and Brinstar as well. I already pointed out why camping isn't a big deal on big blue, even more so because the fox can simply run from one end of the stage to the other like he can on a lot of stages. Peach and Puff are no better on Big Blue than they are on Rainbow Cruise.

As for teching on the track something people don't know is that if your character falls over on the track he isn't whisked away. As long as you don't tech and don't move you won't be moved away. Once you hit the ground you can just get up normally and jump to safety, you can even stay on the ground for an extended period until you see somewhere you are comfortable jumping to.

I think people just assumed that the stage was just one big hazard instead of trying it out see if the stage was fir for competitive play.

@Kanelol: Never tech on the track.

What?

If you land on the track on the right side you have time to get up even if you miss the tech.

But if you miss a tech on the left you are dead. If you don't tech in place you won't have time to live.

So it's a pretty good stage to practice not getting jab-reset by jigglypuff.

 

[Armada]

imo, rainbow cruise and jungle should be cp.

Corneria and Mute city are kinda questionable, but either they should both be banned or neither be banned. Not just one and not the other.

Can you explain why?

Why will we always have good rules for Fox/falco/Falcon?

RC- So ****ing bad stage slow chars have nothing to do and Fox is to good here (Falco and CF is good to).

And i am not sure but i think Silent wolf (someone else maybe) said the reasons why jungle will be banned.

Corneria and mute city is not even CLOSE mute city should be allowed but not Corneria.

How can people compare this stage all the time?
I can actually not understand that.
Everyone say "Puff and peach is to good at mute city" and yeah puff is too good anyway so that is not even a reason. And Peach is not to good at MC not even in pal and specially not in ntsc.

People always overrated Peach specially at MC.
I wanna say Fox and Marth have still the advantage and i guess CF still have it(close with shiek in ntsc).


Corneria is a ******** stage and fox is so ****ing good.
Fox is too good at Corneria but Peach is not too good at mute city so stop compare this stage.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

Uhh, how bout' neither, lol.


Armada kinda beat me to it.

@adam - hejj, jag kan oversatta at dig om du vill =) jag forstar dig val, men vissa amerikaner kanske far inte. och, ledsen jag anvander inte omljud; de ar inte pa mitt tangentbord

 

[LLDL]

I can tell you that Corneria is closer to being a neutral than mute city. No contest. Give me valid reasons why mute city is a fairer stage than corneria. Mute city is an advantage to peach and a couple other characters, but other than that, it's disadvantageous to both characters.

Corneria, because of the walls and low ceiling, is slightly in foxes favor. But, it is also beneficial to other characters because of the flat plane to the left and the walls to tech off of. It doesn't make fox invincible. Meanwhile mute city has no grab ledges, a small platform where the two characters are basically standing there hugging, the cars interfere and the moving stage interferes, all the while the person might not know if a piece of land is substantial or not and dies because of it. It's not an attractive stage lol.

I don't care if mute city stays and corneria stays banned, but I do want to know WHY the stage was booted the stage off in favor for stages that are even less counter pick material. What is the REAL reason?..other than it being a "********" stage.

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

It doesn't matter which one is "closer" because they're still bad lol

 

[DJRome]

how about


same neutrals.

ps brinstar are the only cps

 

[Эикельманн [РУС]]

how about


same neutrals.

ps brinstar are the only cps

Why do we need brinstar? Why not just have all neutrals and only PS as counterpick?

 

[Blistering Speed]

Blistering Speed: Why?

Let me guess you play falco/fox (maybe CF).

Puff and Fox, leaves me pretty neutral on Brinstar and Corneria I'd say. Brinstar's lava is way way worse then the gay kill boundaries. Armada, you need to look past the fairness to your character and look at the metagame as a whole. You also cant just discard the effect on Puff just because you think he should be banned.

 

[MikeHaggarTHAKJB]

armada LAYING DOWN THE LAW

 

[Armada]

Chain-Ace: MC is more fair because no one is really good at the stage. I know Peach is good and she change matchups from really bad to bad or bad to Ok or ok to good.

The thing is many chars STILL have advantage against her and yeah i know the stage have no ledges but that is not a reason to ban that stage.

The reason why we should ban Corneria is the following things.
1- to much camp: And say you can camp on all stage is true but on this stage you HAVE to play campy.
2- Ship: I have seen the ship do so many stupid things. 2 of the 3 last times i have seen people play at this stage the ship have do something and give one of the player the victory.
One of them was the last match the last stock and EVERYTHING change when the ship came and shot one of the players twice.

The other time was the last match in the set and the ship shot the first player 1 or twice and the player landed on the ship and then die because the ship flying away. This is not the same thing like the cars at MC.
3- Fox

If people still not understand why Corneria should be banned i will leave this thread

 

[Cosmo!]

I agree with Armada 100%. Corneria is TERRIBLE

 

[Armada]

Cosmo: Nice =).

Chain-Ace: "I can tell you that Corneria is closer to being a neutral than mute city".
The community (overall) have always had bad rules so i am not surprised.

But the thing is the most players play space animals so they wanna have so bad rules.
If more players play Peach/Samus (good chars at MC) i am pretty sure they agree with me.

 

[soap]

i feel like Armada's english is slowly getting better

 

[LLDL]

armada speaks and types english very well, a lot better than some natives on here lol.

 

[brg]

Cosmo: Nice =).

Chain-Ace: "I can tell you that Corneria is closer to being a neutral than mute city".
The community (overall) have always had bad rules so i am not surprised.

But the thing is the most players play space animals so they wanna have so bad rules.
If more players play Peach/Samus (good chars at MC) i am pretty sure they agree with me.

THIS omg

And why isnt pokefloats legal???

 

[LumpyCPU...]

Neutrals 1v1:
* OK!FD
* OK!Yoshi's Story
* OK!Dreamland
* OK!Battlefield
* OK!Fountain of Dreams

Neutrals 2v2:

* OK!FD
* OK!Yoshi's Story
* OK!Dreamland
* OK!Battlefield
* OK!Pokemon Stadium

Counterpicks 1v1:

* OK!Kongo Jungle
* OK!Brinstar
* ERROR!Rainbow Cruise Corneria OK!

Who's with me?

wow... i didn't know this thread existed.
i prolly could've just read this thread and not felt the need to make this

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10521136#post10521136

i feel it's very related. lol

 

[KAOSTAR]

wow... i didn't know this thread existed.
i prolly could've just read this thread and not felt the need to make this

http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=10521136#post10521136

i feel it's very related. lol

what about stadium as a singles cp?

 

[LumpyCPU...]

what about it?

lol i think it should be, depending on the type of stage set you're using.

 

[Megachuk]

I've thought corneria needed to be banned for a long time. It def needs to happen, before every space animal figures out that they're COMPLETELY broken on that stage.

In trouble? run away and camp
the other player better than you? run away and camp
feelin gay? run away and camp

And for the love of god keep mute city! everyone *****es about peach being good on that stage. What about fox, falco, falcon, sheik, jiggs, and marth having an advantage on every neutral?

I really wish we could have more cp stages but one character alone ruined that... well 2 kinda...


space animals are ********.

 

[Armada]

Soap: =)

Megachuk: your post is awesome =).

 

[_wzrd]

i feel like Armada's english is slowly getting better

yeah...it is a part of adapting to the US playstyle...adapting to our languange..duntduntDUNNN.

but really...his english has gotten noticeably better.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

All this bickering, I thought we might as well do a stage synopsis. Just simple scoring based on whether a character performs better or worse on a stage on average. A total of all the 7 most common characters (Fox, Falco, Marth Sheik, Peach, Puff, Falcon) should give a score that shows how balanced a stage is, in general. My opinions obviously won't match everyone's but I think most of mine will match the consensus with only small deviations. Remember, THE LOWER THE SCORE, THE MORE BALANCED IT IS.

Final Destination:
Fox: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falco: slight advantage (+.5)
Marth: heavy advantage (+1)
Sheik: neutral
Peach: neutral
Puff: neutral
Falcon: heavy advantage (+1)
score: +3
thoughts: obviously a neutral. +3 is a very good score.

Battlefield:
Fox: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falco: neutral
Marth: slight advantage (+.5)
Sheik: neutral
Peach: neutral
Puff: neutral
Falcon: neutral
score: +1 (maaaaybe, giving Fox and Marth scores is questionable. so balanced lol)
thoughts: the most balanced stage in the game. Needs to stay a neutral.

Yoshi's Story:
Fox: slight advantage (+.5)
Falco: slight advantage (+.5)
Marth: slight advantage (+.5)
Sheik: neutral
Peach: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Puff: heavy disadvantage (+1)
Falcon: neutral
score: +3
thoughts: once again, relatively balanced. I don't think there is an argument for this stage to be anything but neutral.

Fountain of Dreams:
Fox: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falco: neutral
Marth: slight advantage (+.5)
Sheik: slight advantage (+.5)
Peach: heavy advantage (+1)
Puff: neutral
Falcon: heavy disadvantage (+1)
score: +3.5
thoughts: FoD is a borderline neutral, arguable CP. Stagestriking and all that make its position on a stagelist hard to determine. Though it should be said that it can be easily argued that Marth and Sheik are actually heavy advantages rather than slight, thus making the score seem a lot less appealing (esp. compared to its rival, Stadium).

Dreamland:
Fox: slight advantage (+.5)
Falco: neutral
Marth: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Sheik: slight advantage (+.5)
Peach: heavy advantage (+1)
Puff: heavy advantage (+1)
Falcon: neutral
score: +3.5
thoughts: once again, obviously a neutral.

Pokemon Stadium:
Fox: heavy advantage (+1)
Falco: heavy advantage (+1)
Marth: neutral
Sheik: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Peach: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Puff: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falcon: slight advantage (+.5)
score: +4
thoughts: Stage striking is a *****. The argument to whether this is a neutral or not over FoD can go back and forth; the fact of the matter is that they are similarly balanced. Fastfallers **** on Stadium, floaties **** on FoD.

Brinstar:
Fox: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falco: heavy disadvantage (+1)
Marth: enormous disadvantage (+2)
Sheik: slight advantage (+.5)
Peach: heavy advantage (+1)
Puff: enormous advantage (+2)
Falcon: slight advantage (+.5)
score: +7.5 (!!!)
thoughts: jesus christ. the score doesn't even include the lower tier (but still very relevant) characters like ICs which get absolutely demolished by this stage. non-Puff edgeguarding is removed, lava removes all previous spacing, and horizontal movement (dashdancing, wavedashing) is stymied. Easily the most imbalanced stage in the current ruleset. In fact, I'd argue that Brinstar is more imbalanced than multiple stages not currently on the stage list. Its a miserable stage.

Rainbow Cruise:
Fox: heavy advantage (+1)
Falco: neutral
Marth: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Sheik: neutral
Peach: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Puff: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falcon: slight advantage (+.5)
score: +3
thoughts: as gay of a stage it is, Cruise is actually pretty balanced. I don't think Cruise does any harm being on a CP list; its so balanced that people rarely pick it anyway. Sure Falcons or Foxes can pick it, but most are so uncomfortable on it (and/or worried about getting gimped) that they just pick Stadium or something. Its a balanced stage that won't ever see much play because of how weird it is.

Kongo Jungle:
Fox: slight advantage (+.5)
Falco: neutral
Marth: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Sheik: heavy advantage (+1)
Peach: slight advantage (+.5)
Puff: neutral
Falcon: heavy advantage (+1)
score: +3.5
thoughts: Kongo is at the very least a CP, arguably a neutral. Its distribution is identical to Dreamland, and I'd argue its balance is very similar. Understandable that it is a CP most commonly though, the barrel is stupid, and the ledges/high platforms reduce edgeguarding/gimps. So though its as balanced as Dreamland, its much gayer/more random. Probably should remain a CP for that reason alone.

Mute City:
Fox: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falco: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Marth: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Sheik: slight advantage (+.5)
Peach: heavy (enormous?) advantage (+1)
Puff: heavy (enormous?) advantage (+1)
Falcon: neutral
score: +4
thoughts: booorderline ban. very easily could be argued as a CP. Based on its score and point distribution, there is essentially no argument that Brinstar should be a CP over it. Though that probably says more about Brinstar than Mute City.

Corneria:
Fox: enormous advantage (+2)
Falco: slight advantage (+.5)
Marth: neutral
Sheik: neutral
Peach: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Puff: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falcon: neutral
score: +3.5
thoughts: ****ing Fox. If he didn't exist this stage would be considerable. Though the score isn't too bad, the distribution is what is worrisome. Fox could very well be a +3 but I just didn't want scores to go that high. The stage is really campy and the fin can be really stupid. I suppose this is another borderline ban, possible CP, just like Mute City.

conclusion: all this exercise really showed is how ******** Brinstar is. Corneria and Mute City can be argued either way, and convincingly, so I don't really know, but they are both much, much more balanced than Brinstar. Also, if you are curious:

OVERALL character balance (sum of all scores for stages); current neutrals (FD, BF, DL, YS, FoD), CPs (PS, Brinstar, KJ64), new CPs (MC, Corneria)
Fox: -.5, +1.5, +1.5
Falco: +1, -1, 0
Marth: +2, -3.5, -.5
Sheik: +1, +2.5, +.5
Peach: +1.5, +1.5, +.5
Puff: 0, +1.5, +.5
Falcon: 0, +3, 0

Basically reinforces some facts we all knew were true. Marth destroys on neutrals but sucks on CPs, Sheik is pretty good on just about every stage, Puff's major strength is her counterpicks (heavy advantages on some stages), etc.

 

[Silent Wolf]

the stage really depends on the match up, especially CPs. one number wouldnt be able to accurately describe how good or bad the character is on a stage like kongo jungle or mute city.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

the stage really depends on the match up, especially CPs. one number wouldnt be able to accurately describe how good or bad the character is on a stage like kongo jungle or mute city.

Oh for sure, I agree. I think it helps to get a general idea though. I suppose I could give a score for each matchup between the top 7 (Fox/Falco, Fox/Marth, Fox/Sheik, etc.) but **** that lol.

It should also be mentioned that adding Corneria/Mute City affects some matchups more than others. For example, currently, in Fox/Marth the Marth picks between FoD, FD (usually banned), Yoshis (I don't agree with this choice but some Marths love the tippers), and Battlefield while the Fox picks between Dreamland (usually banned) and Stadium. Stadium isn't really a fantastic anti-Marth stage since Marth ***** on it too, so I can see a lot of Foxes adding Corneria as their new CP against Marth. Whereas, in other matchups (usually non-Fox ones), adding Corneria doesn't do much to change balance at all. Having a score for Sheik on that stage means very little cause frankly, very few Sheiks will fight on it unless a Fox CPs it. The only relevant score for Corneria is Fox, because like Brinstar, only characters (Puff, Peach for Brinstar) which have overwhelming advantages on that stage will use it. So really, the distribution of scores is more important than the sum of scores.

 

[EPsilon933]

I say we should just play Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, BattleField, Final Destination, and DreamLand64 only. Counterpicks complicate everything. And for teams, change Fountain of Dreams to Pokemon Stadium, of course.

 

[TheCrimsonBlur]

I say we should just play Yoshi's Story, Fountain of Dreams, BattleField, Final Destination, and DreamLand64 only. Counterpicks complicate everything. And for teams, change Fountain of Dreams to Pokemon Stadium, of course.

That'd be so awesome...

I'd just ban Dreamland every set and get to choose between Yoshis, FoD, BF, and FD. lolol gogo Marth ****.

 

[PB&J]

rainbow cruise sux,sux sux,

and ps should be a neautral..i think its better than fod(dumb platforms)

 

[EPsilon933]

If we're going to implement stage striking into our rules, we're going to have to knock out one of our former 6 neutral stages 9YS, FoD, PS, BF, FD, and DL). The two main arguments for moving a stage into counterpick are; 1) a stage benefits a character, or certain characters, too well, and 2) a stage has something which disrupts the game.

Yoshi's Story
-Small area, hinders characters who rely on ability to move around the stage (Captain Falcon)
-semi-low platforms make it easy to uitlt/fsmash through for Marth.
-low ceiling and close walls
-Randall who moves at a 20 second timer
-ShyGuys who can cause a character to stay in hitlag and they can block projectiles. They move randomly

Fountain of Dreams
-Low platforms ruin SHFFL's, namely Fox, Falco, and Captain Falcon
-platform height changes randomly

Pokemon Stadium
-basically 5 stages in one; neutral, grass, water, fire, and rock.
-non-neutral transformations last 30 seconds
-If fire and rock were stages on their own, they would be downright banned. The tree and the walls on rock transformation make approaching a too easily punishable strategy. There's nothing wrong with the grass and water transformations.
-low ceiling combined with wide open space is ideal for a fast runner who can get vertical kills very well, aka Fox. I've heard it's also good for Falco too
-Why is Falco so good here? No, I'm asking hoping for a helpful response.

BattleField
-ungrabbable edges. There are ways to avoid not getting gayed (don't hold forward for most characters)
-no wall for Fox/Falco to hug during recovery

Final Destination
-chain throws

DreamLand64
-wide open space to run around
-high ceiling and far walls make living to high percents easy and benefit characters with good recoveries (Jigglypuff and Peach)
-windy tree (however, it can't blow you off platforms)


This is just a basic list, anyone else can go into further detail I don't know. If you look at Pokemon Stadium, it has both of the arguments needed to move a neutral to counterpick: It benefits a character (or two) too well and when it's in a transformation, it has a 50% chance of being one of the two unplayable transformations. And besides, Fox (and Falco) are already **** on their own, they don't need an extra boost on the first round.

 

[LumpyCPU...]

i'm gonna push for fod and stadium to be CP stages at the next local tournament.

i change my mind too much......

 

[Kason Birdman]

cruise should stay, corneria and mute city (MABY) should come back.
corneria, not even that broken.
mute city, ...pretty broken... but awesome as nalts

 

[CableCho57]

Yeah please get rid of brinstar. The lava is RANDOM which can cause a death. Corneria is legit and you can shield the lasers. And it's like kinda a cp to jiggs, a character a lot of ppl seem to hate lately bc the lava can't affect her but lasers can.

ALSO the weird areas of brinstar make it hard to l-cancel. You know what I'm talking about

 

[LumpyCPU...]

you can't have rainbow cruise and corneria without having mute city.

you can't have mute city without corneria.

you can't have corneria without brinstar (or mute city).

my thoughts...

a lot of people hate on specific counter stages mainly because there's a learning curve to each of them. if everyone was used to all counter pick stages, it wouldn't be as big of a deal.

i can't get used to them if i don't know which ones are even legal -_-

 

[JPOBS]

Fountain of Dreams:
Fox: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Falco: neutral
Marth: slight advantage (+.5)
Sheik: slight advantage (+.5)
Peach: heavy advantage (+1)
Puff: neutral
Falcon: heavy disadvantage (+1)
score: +3.5
thoughts: FoD is a borderline neutral, arguable CP. Stagestriking and all that make its position on a stagelist hard to determine. Though it should be said that it can be easily argued that Marth and Sheik are actually heavy advantages rather than slight, thus making the score seem a lot less appealing (esp. compared to its rival, Stadium).

Dreamland:
Fox: slight advantage (+.5)
Falco: neutral
Marth: slight disadvantage (+.5)
Sheik: slight advantage (+.5)
Peach: heavy advantage (+1)
Puff: heavy advantage (+1)
Falcon: neutral
score: +3.5
thoughts: once again, obviously a neutral.

Fastfallers **** on Stadium, floaties **** on FoD.

im going to have to call you out on some of this stuff.

first of all, FoD and Dreamland both score 3.5 according to whatever arbitrary standard you put them too, but you say Dreamland is "obviously neutral" but FoD is "borderline"
How the f*** did you reason that one?

and as for "floaties **** on FoD", yea about that....its probably one Falco's best stage in many matchups for lots of reasons. I could go into detail, but the bottom line is that the stigma FoD gets as being a bad stage for falco becase of "difficult laser control" is almost non-existent in todays metagame.
Most falco's think its one of, if not his best stage.
just saying.