Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nebunera]

Okay thanks but is anyone actually playing Young Link in tournaments?

 

[Das Koopa]

Intelligent theory-crafters were already a dying breed back in the brawl days and today are almost non-existent, those that are capable do not garner the respect of communities unless they're just labbing %s that things combo or crap like that (i.e. niche bull**** that almost entirely driven by people wanting clout for twitter clips). Match up discussions come down to binary facets rather than mitigation or "finding the correct path" and that's still the case now (tis why I generally maintained that ZSS didn't really lose to small characters in S4 or now, just the bar of execution and precision is set higher). But try getting that point across to people, at least in the S4 era, was mostly a fool's errand. I think I blame the game more so than the players.

I really hope that Ultimate is the game that re-establishes Smash as one that emphasises highly intelligent, well thought out and applied neutral and advantage states, and I do think this game has the chance of that. It's a shame that we're past the point of being able to keep-up at top [or even highish] level in terms of reaction, quick thinking and most importantly daylong (or weekend long) stamina for events (well, I'd guess this notion doesn't still weigh upon you like it does for me, probably because health issues cut my time short).

You are significantly more optimistic than I am about this game's potential to have good discussions on social media. Like, you nail one of the biggest issues with social media in reference to bad theorycrafting - sharing dumb clips as practical plays when they're not - and I frankly do blame the people on this, and not the game. Ultimate as a game doesn't force people to attribute MKLeo winning events to Joker, "thus joker = Broken", which is a real debate/discussion that's been happening for a month.

It is to the point of self-parody - a player of Leo's skill at adaptation, being the sole top level player of a main, getting called carried. It really just means that any successful character, if successful for long enough, will get intense backlash, because much of the community exists to spectate, not play seriously. If the bar for what gets people to complain is as low as "#1 in the game is still #1 after 2 months", then it's really just a ship full of cracks, ready to break.

I am very worried about the future of theorycrafting in the scene if its most frequently seen elements are treated with immediate backlash rather than real analysis. Maybe 2018 just hit me way too hard.

I obviously will continue to produce content but I am very concerned about what the Ult scene will be like in a year from now since the community aspect has been so muddy & ugly despite how comparatively balanced Ultimate is to Smash 4. It seems ridiculous that a game so not-dominated as Smash 4 was (by Diddy, then Sheik, etc.) has been about as difficult to navigate in terms of discussion as late, Bayo-ridden Smash 4 was.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

So then how do we do real analysis? The game has been out for long enough right? Can there we an analysis made now? I'm not so sure due to the underuse of certain characters in serious competitive play. Anyone want to chime in here?

 

[Nebunera]

How many top tiers do you guys think there are? I think there are 17, which might seem like a lot but when I make a tier list there are still more characters in high and mid tier.

 

[Lacrimosa]

How many top tiers do you guys think there are? I think there are 17, which might seem like a lot but when I make a tier list there are still more characters in high and mid tier.

I think it's easier to ask what characters do not belong into the viable tiers.
Balancing is great, but there are a few outliers.
That's also the reason why it's mostly player dependant on how well a character does.
Peach without Samsora and "only" MuteAce as the peak would probably never be considered a so-called top-tier. Sure, there are still minor fluctuations but I think that any character could basically beat everyone except the bottom 10 to 15 (and yes, my main belongs into this unviable category).

 

[blackghost]

when it comes to the discussion of ultimate i think many players still have warped perceptions of tiers and think of tiers in the traditional smash context which imo has translated to the following:
bottom= worthless/barely functional brawl bottom tiers and melee bottom tiers
low tier= bad but not as bad as bottom tier.
mid tier= decent still virtually no chance at a high level of play but not actively shooting yourself in the foot
high tier= good maybe one elite tool or so but not top tier due to not being overwhelming
top tier= runs the game, invalidates other characters, has elite tools and minimal weaknesses.

ultimate has condensed the difference between (most) of the tiers to the point people are having a hard time distinguishing and the result is people over grouping characters in high tier and some others claiming that north of 15 characters are in top tier and another 20 or so in high tier. I've played fighting games for 15 years half of a roster fundamentally cannot be in top and high tier doesnt make logical sense. I think people are not taking into account the general powerlevel of a character in ultimate is higher than any other game and therefore the requirements to be a top tier or a high tier needs to be higher. A character can be good a balanced game like sfv, soul Calibur 6, killer instinct and still be able to win a major or regional. Ultimate is the same way. mid tier characters in ultimate have tools but until those tools prove to be effective in high levels of play they shouldnt be considered high tiers in the meta

Also remember meta means Most Effective Tactics Available. Just a PSA.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Also remember meta means Most Effective Tactics Available. Just a PSA.

Not sure if you're joking or serious but I don't want people to spread misinformation, so I'll clarify:

By this logic, metaethics is "Most Effective Tactics Available Ethics", metaphysics "Most Effective Tactics Available Physics", etc? That's obviously not the case; meta actually comes from Greek μετά, which means "after" or "beyond". The way it's commonly used is discussing about the thing, so a meta-discussion would be a discussion about discussions, a meta-joke a joke about jokes.

Ultimate as a game doesn't force people to attribute MKLeo winning events to Joker, "thus joker = Broken", which is a real debate/discussion that's been happening for a month.

I haven't seen anyone say this outside of like Twitter and Twitch chat, and both of those are known for being pretty bad when it comes to Smash.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I haven't seen anyone say this outside of like Twitter and Twitch chat, and both of those are known for being pretty bad when it comes to Smash.

The thing is that Twitter and twitch chat makes up a big part of the smash community online talk, and other sites like reddit or this forum aren't much better most of the time even in this thread you can see sometimes the same bad behavour or bad mentality, is on us as players of this game and community member to be an example for beginners players and viewers because a community with good mentality is better for all us that one with a bad mentality, sorry for being off topic.

 

[blackghost]

Not sure if you're joking or serious but I don't want people to spread misinformation, so I'll clarify:

By this logic, metaethics is "Most Effective Tactics Available Ethics", metaphysics "Most Effective Tactics Available Physics", etc? That's obviously not the case; meta actually comes from Greek μετά, which means "after" or "beyond". The way it's commonly used is discussing about the thing, so a meta-discussion would be a discussion about discussions, a meta-joke a joke about jokes.

I haven't seen anyone say this outside of like Twitter and Twitch chat, and both of those are known for being pretty bad when it comes to Smash.

in online games since mmos and team games like smite and LOL "meta" has meant what i said. its slang and within the community of gamers that is what its meaning has been for years now. just like how smash community says moves have "end lag" when they mean "recovery frames." Within smash and fgc games, in general, the metagame or phrases like "let the meta settle" indicate this. communities of all kinds take words and change their meaning often in strange and unpredictable ways. meta isnt technically even a word its just shorthand it just gets thrown around so much people think its a word. But knowing its definition is important imo as we've already basically lost meaning being words like "broken." and "jank" and it really does annoy some of the more theory heavy players and posters I know it annoys me.

 

[Rizen]

Okay thanks but is anyone actually playing Young Link in tournaments?

I do.

Where is this character in competitive?

Isn't he a solid high tier with good matchups?

Like most people said he's high tier. From my experience, and someone else's MU chart could differ, his MUs go:
Disadvantage

Slight Disadvantage

Even

Slight Advantage

Advantage
(This might have changed since patches)
Strong Advantage


If they're unlisted I haven't played them live.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Disadvantage

Why do you think the Lucina matchup is so bad for Young Link?

 

[Rizen]

Why do you think the Lucina matchup is so bad for Young Link?

The short answer is she's so darn good at controlling space. Lucina's faster than YL in air speed, run speed, startup frame data and her huge sword swings cover large areas. She has a fairly easy time approaching then she can out-angle and out range YL at sword length. Any time YL's in the large circle her sword attacks can create around her he's at a disadvantage. She's one of the harder characters to cross over due to this too (also a big reason why Ike is so bad). YL needs to play keep away with projectiles but the huge area Lucina controls is really hard to get around. She's one of the best at controlling platforms so BF's a terrible stage to go to but without platforms like on FD it's extremely hard to cross up or land vs Lucina. YL's best bet is PS2 or failing that Kalos.

Lucina's advantage state ignores a lot of what makes YL's disadvantage good. In MUs like Pichu, YL's Nair and Dair are really good at covering the lower parts of his body which can beat or force a trade but Lucina's sword is so big that she can hit him through those. It's extremely hard to land vs Lucina. Offstage is even worse, Lucina's walling with F/Bair is excellent. YL can try to throw out projectiles but Lucina's hitboxes will beat them up close so he often doesn't have enough time to cover himself.

Lucina has a few other top tier tools that can make the MU bad. A shield break kills YL very early. Her upB is great OoS and makes it risky to try to gimp her offstage.

Lucina's probably YL's worst MU. He does not like bigger disjoints that are faster and she's the best at that.

 

[Lacrimosa]

I do.

Like most people said he's high tier. From my experience, and someone else's MU chart could differ, his MUs go:
Disadvantage

Slight Disadvantage

Even

Slight Advantage

Advantage
(This might have changed since patches)
Strong Advantage


If they're unlisted I haven't played them live.

I think you can Zelda at "advantage". Very weak to arrow and boomerang spam, can't really set anything up and aerials are faster + less endlag.
Don't see how's that "only" slight.

 

[Thinkaman]

You are significantly more optimistic than I am about this game's potential to have good discussions on social media. Like, you nail one of the biggest issues with social media in reference to bad theorycrafting - sharing dumb clips as practical plays when they're not - and I frankly do blame the people on this, and not the game. Ultimate as a game doesn't force people to attribute MKLeo winning events to Joker, "thus joker = Broken", which is a real debate/discussion that's been happening for a month.

It is to the point of self-parody - a player of Leo's skill at adaptation, being the sole top level player of a main, getting called carried. It really just means that any successful character, if successful for long enough, will get intense backlash, because much of the community exists to spectate, not play seriously. If the bar for what gets people to complain is as low as "#1 in the game is still #1 after 2 months", then it's really just a ship full of cracks, ready to break.

I am very worried about the future of theorycrafting in the scene if its most frequently seen elements are treated with immediate backlash rather than real analysis. Maybe 2018 just hit me way too hard.

I obviously will continue to produce content but I am very concerned about what the Ult scene will be like in a year from now since the community aspect has been so muddy & ugly despite how comparatively balanced Ultimate is to Smash 4. It seems ridiculous that a game so not-dominated as Smash 4 was (by Diddy, then Sheik, etc.) has been about as difficult to navigate in terms of discussion as late, Bayo-ridden Smash 4 was.

This is the best articulation of the bad juju I've been feeling for the last several months.

Yeah, lots of people (I'd like to think all of us) are going to be a step wiser and not fall for BAN JOKER (or w/e). But it's just that: only one step past it. Everyone's first inclination, including me, is just to punch down at how dumb BAN JOKER (or w/e) is, and waste our time like first graders rebuking kindergardeners. And that's the extent of the discourse 99% of the time.

A lot of this goes back to the drum I'm always beating: perceptions of balance is primarily social phenomenon, not any property or measure of the game itself. As long as people want to believe something is or is not balanced/worthy/"competitive", they will.

Cigarettes, asbestos, lead paint, Twitter. Sometimes we goof up and make really bad things with unintended consequences.

 

[boysilver400]

On the topic of matchup charts, Juggleboy, a Kirby player who frequently plays online made one for Kirby, but according to him, it's a little different than usual matchup charts. He's basing the matchups based off two players that have equal results rather than equal skill level. It may sound like the same thing, but he states that usual matchup charts just look like tier lists with characters that are low tier defaulting to having a -1 or -2 matchup. He states that, as a low tier main, Kirby will likely have more experience in a top tier matchup than the top tier will. He goes more into detail in the beginning of part 1 of the vids, separating the characters based on tiers.

This does look a little optimistic but the way he formats the chart makes it look optimistic.

 

[KirbySquad101]

For anyone who might be confused as to what boysilver's referring to, this is the main video that talks about it:

I think it's pretty interesting to think about a results-based match-up chart rather than a more traditional match-up chart. It really helps put into perspective about many match-up videos we analyze, particularly upsets. Some examples that come to mind are when ESAM lost to ven despite Pikachu being considered to have a much better match-up spread than Zelda.

Probably the biggest example I saw of this was when stuff like Gluttony getting wrecked by Maister at Super Factor 8 happened, when in theory, the match-up isn't even considered that bad for Wario (Maister only considers it a +1). After Gluttony gathered a ton more experience with GnW, things looked a lot more even the second time they fought at PSG Classic, with Gluttony being able to win Grand Finals over Maister, despite the reset.

A high-placing player would be VERY uncommon in Smash Ultimate, especially when everyone considers him to be a bottom 5 character (or in some cases, the worst character in the game); if this high-placing Kirby player were to go up against a high-placing player that uses a common top tier like Olimar or Peach, who do you think would have more experience with the match-up?

It helps put into perspective as to why Juggleboy thinks that a good Kirby player would do well against a character like Mega Man, when in theory the match-up should probably be a losing one for Kirby.

 

[Nobie]

There's a video out there showing how Mewtwo's tail buff isn't much, and how all these different attacks can hit it, and I'm basically here to gripe about it because I feel it's a bit disingenuous, or maybe indicative of the kneejerk reaction culture mentioned above.

Specifically, there are multiple points in the video showing a character hitting end of Mewtwo's tail like it's a big deal...but almost tricking people into not focusing on the fact that those attacks are NAIRS—specifically sex kick nairs, i.e. attacks with some of the biggest and most generous hotboxes in the game.

So the video shows characters doing nairs around the base of Mewtwo's tail, which has always had a consistent hurtbox, while zooming in on the tip of the far foot as if to imply THAT'S what's doing the damage.

It just feels so gross.

 

[Dee-SmashinBoss]

I mean....the issue with the tail didn't really go away. He can still be hit in some pretty dumb interactions, regardless if they made the hurtbox skinnier.

Legit, I have still had dumb moments where I lost advantage because of the hurtbox and have died for it.

That's not really that fair, if you ask me.

 

[Nebunera]

Where is Wario on the tier list? Top 10? Top 5?

 

[KirbySquad101]

There's a video out there showing how Mewtwo's tail buff isn't much, and how all these different attacks can hit it, and I'm basically here to gripe about it because I feel it's a bit disingenuous, or maybe indicative of the kneejerk reaction culture mentioned above.

Specifically, there are multiple points in the video showing a character hitting end of Mewtwo's tail like it's a big deal...but almost tricking people into not focusing on the fact that those attacks are NAIRS—specifically sex kick nairs, i.e. attacks with some of the biggest and most generous hotboxes in the game.

So the video shows characters doing nairs around the base of Mewtwo's tail, which has always had a consistent hurtbox, while zooming in on the tip of the far foot as if to imply THAT'S what's doing the damage.

It just feels so gross.

Do you have the link to the video? I am sort of curious to see what this is about.

 

[BlackInk]

I’m honestly going to say it, drop Mewtwo becuase they are far too in confident to ever fix him when he is absolutely fine in smash 4. One, he isn’t popular anymore becuase he is bad. Two, he isn’t paid dlc so they don’t have to make him good. At last, they have too many characters in their hands and they already make stupid changes/nerfs to Mewtwo since Ultimate’s release and they likely will keep it that way.

 

[Krysco]

There's actually quite a number of times I've noticed mains of characters and even those who don't main, focus way too much on one poor aspect of a character and act like if just the one issue was fixed then suddenly the character would be completely viable. I'm sure in some cases it's true but in other cases, I question it.

I've seen it with mains on Twitter, carrying someone to either the top or side blastzone and then wondering why uair or fair don't kill when it should be clear this many months in that the dev team designed her to be able to wrack up damage that way but generally not kill. It does mean she struggles to kill overall and I'm sure she would be a better character with a buff to uair or fair but it should be clear after Smash 4 that that's not going to happen.

I've also seen it with and his dash back animation, I've personally got gripes with parts of , namely utilt, ff fair, sh nair, Reflector, usmash and to a lesser degree Blaster, fthrow in relation to platforms is another, tipper size and/or reward on hit. weight and tail hurtbox. fair. shield but honestly, that does seem silly to me that they basically gave Olimar a slightly better Melee Game & Watch shield. I've also seen Myran complain about Pikmin attacks not working after parry since the parry doesn't deactivate hitboxes for the Pikmin, only for Olimar. weight, similar to Mewtwo. uair. There's probably more examples but one that just recently came true is for . For many, their biggest gripe was characters being able to run past her Lloid Trap and I also had issues with her jab and both have been addressed among other things. Might not be enough to make her viable but it certainly makes her better to play as. Maybe the people that focus on these few poor aspects just think that for their character as well.

 

[Arthur97]

There's actually quite a number of times I've noticed mains of characters and even those who don't main, focus way too much on one poor aspect of a character and act like if just the one issue was fixed then suddenly the character would be completely viable. I'm sure in some cases it's true but in other cases, I question it.

I've seen it with mains on Twitter, carrying someone to either the top or side blastzone and then wondering why uair or fair don't kill when it should be clear this many months in that the dev team designed her to be able to wrack up damage that way but generally not kill. It does mean she struggles to kill overall and I'm sure she would be a better character with a buff to uair or fair but it should be clear after Smash 4 that that's not going to happen.

I've also seen it with and his dash back animation, I've personally got gripes with parts of , namely utilt, ff fair, sh nair, Reflector, usmash and to a lesser degree Blaster, fthrow in relation to platforms is another, tipper size and/or reward on hit. weight and tail hurtbox. fair. shield but honestly, that does seem silly to me that they basically gave Olimar a slightly better Melee Game & Watch shield. I've also seen Myran complain about Pikmin attacks not working after parry since the parry doesn't deactivate hitboxes for the Pikmin, only for Olimar. weight, similar to Mewtwo. uair. There's probably more examples but one that just recently came true is for . For many, their biggest gripe was characters being able to run past her Lloid Trap and I also had issues with her jab and both have been addressed among other things. Might not be enough to make her viable but it certainly makes her better to play as. Maybe the people that focus on these few poor aspects just think that for their character as well.

You could probably add Chrom's recovery to the list, though that seems to have died down as Chrom proves himself.

 

[Nebunera]

There's actually quite a number of times I've noticed mains of characters and even those who don't main, focus way too much on one poor aspect of a character and act like if just the one issue was fixed then suddenly the character would be completely viable. I'm sure in some cases it's true but in other cases, I question it.

I've seen it with mains on Twitter, carrying someone to either the top or side blastzone and then wondering why uair or fair don't kill when it should be clear this many months in that the dev team designed her to be able to wrack up damage that way but generally not kill. It does mean she struggles to kill overall and I'm sure she would be a better character with a buff to uair or fair but it should be clear after Smash 4 that that's not going to happen.

I've also seen it with and his dash back animation, I've personally got gripes with parts of , namely utilt, ff fair, sh nair, Reflector, usmash and to a lesser degree Blaster, fthrow in relation to platforms is another, tipper size and/or reward on hit. weight and tail hurtbox. fair. shield but honestly, that does seem silly to me that they basically gave Olimar a slightly better Melee Game & Watch shield. I've also seen Myran complain about Pikmin attacks not working after parry since the parry doesn't deactivate hitboxes for the Pikmin, only for Olimar. weight, similar to Mewtwo. uair. There's probably more examples but one that just recently came true is for . For many, their biggest gripe was characters being able to run past her Lloid Trap and I also had issues with her jab and both have been addressed among other things. Might not be enough to make her viable but it certainly makes her better to play as. Maybe the people that focus on these few poor aspects just think that for their character as well.

Yeah but let's be honest there is nothing inherently wrong with except his kill power. I think he can be at least low high tier if they generally increase it for the moveset.

You could probably add Chrom's recovery to the list, though that seems to have died down as Chrom proves himself.

I knew it was complete BS when people said Chrom wouldn't be good because of the recovery, and here we are with Chrom (and Roy) as a top tier.

 

[BlackInk]

I knew it was complete BS when people said Chrom wouldn't be good because of the recovery, and here we are with Chrom (and Roy) as a top tier.

Roy is top tier but they need to to fix his recovery becuase I honestly think it’s dysfunctional. Even if it’s supposed to be that way, it’s just as awful as Olimar’s shield. It straight up doesn’t follow the rules of the game.

 

[BlackInk]

There's actually quite a number of times I've noticed mains of characters and even those who don't main, focus way too much on one poor aspect of a character and act like if just the one issue was fixed then suddenly the character would be completely viable. I'm sure in some cases it's true but in other cases, I question it.

I've seen it with mains on Twitter, carrying someone to either the top or side blastzone and then wondering why uair or fair don't kill when it should be clear this many months in that the dev team designed her to be able to wrack up damage that way but generally not kill. It does mean she struggles to kill overall and I'm sure she would be a better character with a buff to uair or fair but it should be clear after Smash 4 that that's not going to happen.

I've also seen it with and his dash back animation, I've personally got gripes with parts of , namely utilt, ff fair, sh nair, Reflector, usmash and to a lesser degree Blaster, fthrow in relation to platforms is another, tipper size and/or reward on hit. weight and tail hurtbox. fair. shield but honestly, that does seem silly to me that they basically gave Olimar a slightly better Melee Game & Watch shield. I've also seen Myran complain about Pikmin attacks not working after parry since the parry doesn't deactivate hitboxes for the Pikmin, only for Olimar. weight, similar to Mewtwo. uair. There's probably more examples but one that just recently came true is for . For many, their biggest gripe was characters being able to run past her Lloid Trap and I also had issues with her jab and both have been addressed among other things. Might not be enough to make her viable but it certainly makes her better to play as. Maybe the people that focus on these few poor aspects just think that for their character as well.

Can the smash team at least replace Bayonetta’s kills with a pretty good neutral, edge guarding tools, and more weight? That’s how the typical top tier functions in this game and they definitely aren’t breaking it. Hell, that’s exactly what they did with Zero suit Samus, remove the jank and improve the neutral. I’m surprised they haven’t done this already with her because of Zero suit Samus.

 

[DelugeFGC]

I think Olimar's shield issues are greatly overstated, maybe it's because I shield tilt (most people never do, it seems) regardless of who I'm playing, but I honestly don't find myself getting shield poked all that often. Should the issue be fixed? Yes. But it's not this glaring flaw people make it out to be.

 

[Lacrimosa]

For anyone who might be confused as to what boysilver's referring to, this is the main video that talks about it:

I think it's pretty interesting to think about a results-based match-up chart rather than a more traditional match-up chart. It really helps put into perspective about many match-up videos we analyze, particularly upsets. Some examples that come to mind are when ESAM lost to ven despite Pikachu being considered to have a much better match-up spread than Zelda.

Uhh, dunno about that.
Yes, ESAM is considered the best Pika but he made some serious SDs throughout that set.
If you watch the sets against Cpt. L or Z (a Vegas Pikachu) then you see how much she actually struggles.
So I think this pretty much says that there is a chance but your opponent (in this case Esam) played more than just awful.

 

[Deleted member]

Where is Wario on the tier list? Top 10? Top 5?

Wario’s going to continue placing very high in many major tournaments. Glutonny and other players (Nientono, Waymas, Kameme) will just eat the bracket. Think he’s top 10 though characters like Lucina and Olimar won’t make life easy for the WAHnderful Treasure Hunter.

Side note: Smash Con hosted a heavies-only event. How many attended that? As far as I know Mew2King really gave good beef with Bowser. Look at how he defeated Puppeh’s Charizard and ESAM’s Incineroar.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Wario’s going to continue placing very high in many major tournaments. Glutonny and other players (Nientono, Waymas, Kameme) will just eat the bracket. Think he’s top 10 though characters like Lucina and Olimar won’t make life easy for the WAHnderful Treasure Hunter.

Side note: Smash Con hosted a heavies-only event. How many attended that? As far as I know Mew2King really gave good beef with Bowser. Look at how he defeated Puppeh’s Charizard and ESAM’s Incineroar.

It was an 8 hand picked player single elimination bracket limited to the 8 heaviest characters and only played on two custom stages (with a really awful camera) designed to be in the shape of cup noodles.

Actually pretty entertaining but nothing to be taken seriously.

 

[Iron Maw]

Parappa released a comprehensive Hero spell guide with methodology and tips for where, when and what kind spells to use in any given situation. It also explains how opponents can counterpart these options. It's worth watching imo

 

[SwagGuy99]

I do.

Like most people said he's high tier. From my experience, and someone else's MU chart could differ, his MUs go:
Disadvantage

Slight Disadvantage

Even

Slight Advantage

Advantage
(This might have changed since patches)
Strong Advantage


If they're unlisted I haven't played them live.

being even with is an interesting opinion that I'm not sure I've seen a lot of people have. I think DK is better than most people do but I still don't think the matchup is that good for him (in fact, I think it's very bad). I'd be curious to hear your opinion on that.

Where is Wario on the tier list? Top 10? Top 5?

IMO he's between 12-15 near the lower end of Top Tier which is also where I'd put Mario as well. Wario's really good overall, and is actually not as slow on the ground as you would think he would be, but his range is really bad on some attacks, his frame data isn't that great on moves that aren't his aerials, and (IMO) he has to rely a bit too much on the same couple of moves for onstage kills (Waft, b-air, dash attack) because all of his smash attacks are mediocre. D-air becomes a kill move off stage and f-tilt will kill near the ledge, but these ones are more situational.

Also, I mentioned Mario intentionally as I was going to do a post on this anyways, but I think that he is a Top Tier as well and only slightly worse than Wario. I know this opinion isn't the most popular but if you look at his results on OrionStats, you'll notice that he is ranked 9th in results (only 2 places behind Wario). While this argument alone isn't strong enough, I can make some other arguments for this being true as well. Like Wario, many of Mario's moves lack range and (like Wario) he only relies on a few moves to kill onstage (f-smash, up-smash, b-air, up-b near the blastzone). However, his ground speed is faster than Wario's, he still has a decent recovery, he deals with projectile camping a bit better due to having cape and a projectile, his frame-data is among the best in the game, his juggling and combo game is very good (like Wario), and his edgeguarding is also among the best in the game.

In fact, if it wasn't for waft, Mario would certainly be better than Wario due to having better attributes than Wario overall and because he deals with camping better, however, Waft is such a good move that it is kind of the deciding factor as to which one is better.

 

[Impax]

Parappa released a comprehensive Hero spell guide with methodology and tips for where, when and what kind spells to use in any given situation. It also explains how opponents can counterpart these options. It's worth watching imo

Theres some good matches or him using hero on YouTube

 

[blackghost]

There's actually quite a number of times I've noticed mains of characters and even those who don't main, focus way too much on one poor aspect of a character and act like if just the one issue was fixed then suddenly the character would be completely viable. I'm sure in some cases it's true but in other cases, I question it.

I've seen it with mains on Twitter, carrying someone to either the top or side blastzone and then wondering why uair or fair don't kill when it should be clear this many months in that the dev team designed her to be able to wrack up damage that way but generally not kill. It does mean she struggles to kill overall and I'm sure she would be a better character with a buff to uair or fair but it should be clear after Smash 4 that that's not going to happen.

i can only speak from what ive seen. carrying someone to the blastzone, like literally inside the hourglass and they live is in general absurd. bayonetta is a weird character. frame data of a heavy (frame 9 jab and frame 7 fastest normal), lightweight, nothing safe, high landing lag, virtually non active smash attacks ( 1 frame on all except down smash which is 2) low kill power, routinely punished on hit of a combo, clanking smashes, a recovery that doesnt ledge snap, and gets nothing guaranteed from a parry. that's a lot of her downsides.

plus she's virtually unplayable online.
it would take a lot to fix her and given the state of the smash community which now nintendo should be fully aware of she's not getting fixed.

all that being said i don't expect her to ever be good in this game. you may get twitter's respect for playing her but you aren't a threat to win anything. not unless the entire tournament is ROBs. Just dont go into twitch chat and say she's still good or anywhere else people love to fearmonger on this character and hero beyond belief.

 

[Spinosaurus]

I’m honestly going to say it, drop Mewtwo becuase they are far too in confident to ever fix him when he is absolutely fine in smash 4. One, he isn’t popular anymore becuase he is bad. Two, he isn’t paid dlc so they don’t have to make him good. At last, they have too many characters in their hands and they already make stupid changes/nerfs to Mewtwo since Ultimate’s release and they likely will keep it that way.

Considering he's been one of the most consistently buffed character across patches. (that one dash attack nerf from the first patch aside) I get the impression they really want him to be good, if anything.

 

[BlackInk]

Considering he's been one of the most consistently buffed character across patches. (that one dash attack nerf from the first patch aside) I get the impression they really want him to be good, if anything.

I know he gets consistent buffs but it still doesn’t feel like they know what they are doing with him.

 

[Wunderwaft]

Where is Wario on the tier list? Top 10? Top 5?

Wario is a character that is generally believed to be the top of high tier or at the lower ends of top tier. He's a character that has no problems accumulating damage thanks to his nair, utilt, and uair. These three moves are the core essentials for Wario's combo game and they can connect to other moves or themselves depending on the damage percentage. And of course there's Waft, a move that can turn an entire game around, and it's only usable twice in a game. Outside of waft his most reliable kill moves are bair, dash attack, f-tilt, and dair if you're off-stage.

The character isn't without faults of course. Wario loses to any character with disjointed hitboxes thanks to his pitiful range. Lucina in particular is one of Wario's worst match-ups and she's agreed to be a top tier character. So if a character is faster than Wario and out-ranges Wario then they should have a slight advantage over the fat man.

 

[ProfessorVincent]

This is the best articulation of the bad juju I've been feeling for the last several months.

Yeah, lots of people (I'd like to think all of us) are going to be a step wiser and not fall for BAN JOKER (or w/e). But it's just that: only one step past it. Everyone's first inclination, including me, is just to punch down at how dumb BAN JOKER (or w/e) is, and waste our time like first graders rebuking kindergardeners. And that's the extent of the discourse 99% of the time.

A lot of this goes back to the drum I'm always beating: perceptions of balance is primarily social phenomenon, not any property or measure of the game itself. As long as people want to believe something is or is not balanced/worthy/"competitive", they will.

Cigarettes, asbestos, lead paint, Twitter. Sometimes we goof up and make really bad things with unintended consequences.

This is obviously not limited to smash or even gaming in general, and it's one of the biggest challenges humans face (we can never solve a problem before a bigger one appears; it sucks). The easy access to a platform provided by social media gives everyone a voice, but it also makes it so people think their uninformed view is as relevant as a thoroughly educated one. I like doing what seems to be the general direction of this thread in particular: try to o spark interesting conversations that take into consideration knowledge gaps and ignore dumb **** that doesn't deserve to be talked about, like premature bans.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I know he gets consistent buffs but it still doesn’t feel like they know what they are doing with him.

Reminder that it wasn't one huge buff in Smash 4 that made Mewtwo relevant, but several small ones across a series of patches. (Well, that and some meta game development, which I think people tend to understate. People would treat you like you were crazy if you suggested using uncharged/halfcharged Shadow Balls back in the day).

 

[PK Gaming]

I'm going to go against the grain and disagree with Lucina being one of Wario's worst matchups. It's not a particularly great one, but we've seen it play out at high level play multiple times. In particular, Tweek has notable wins vs MKleo, and as old as those matchups may be, they're still examples of a matchup Wario can play through.

As for characters who don't give him that wiggle room, look no further than Duck Hunt Dog. An abysmal matchup, from front to back. Wario struggles to break his zoning and go for the big damage combos and struggles to build consistent damage vs him. Gluttony's match vs Raito was the perfect example of this, since had to rely on the Waft in order to even take a game off him. DHD and Megaman are Wario's worst matchups.