Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Thinkaman]

You've never actually seen Ike's D-Smash, Palutena's F-Smash, and Corrin's U-Smash have you?

Ike's d-smash is pretty rough but is actually just a more extreme version of Hero's. It's rather lethal for a f13 move (but will win no awards), and it will catch some rolls, but that's about all good you can say about it.

Palu f-smash is obviously pretty bad but has the windbox gimmick. I have won low-percent tourney stocks from that windbox! Wario is the real example of a terrible f-smash.

Corrin's u-smash is a tiny bit safer and actually hits grounded opponents, while still reaching platforms. However, the reward is trash, and it's pretty bad. Definitely held the worst u-smash crown before Hero showed up.


Sheik f-smash is a bad move but in a different, incomparable class to Hero f-smash. (hits f12, only 44 frames? that's faster than many tilts) It's also hard to judge since it's on a character starving for kill options.

If I have a move that comes out later than f16, I expect something exceptional. (so that I actually have a situation to use such a slow move)

• Horizontal range like , or even just
• Vertical coverage (+the highest tier of power) like
• The ability to catch spotdodges like
• has armor
• has invincibility
• has crazy low endlag
• has disable
• has the windbox for safety and gimps
• has his famous f-smash 2, and I guess technically the beam is a cute bonus
• Even poor at least has a 3 frame release and decent shield safety, besides just the overkill power

The more direct comparisons to Hero f-smash are the ordinary "medium-heavy" smashes like those of ect. And all of these characters have noteably better startup, endlag, damage, range--normally 3 out of 4 of those. And if you compare it to the fast swordsmen () obviously he can't compete with those frames at all, despite their f-smashes having almost identical range/power and those characters having far superior mobility.

The only comparably lackluster f-smash in the game is , which is a terrible move whose numbers are all very similar to Hero's f-smash. And obviously Wario is amazing so there's that.

For Hero f-smash, it really is all about the crit gimmick.

Edit: Credit where it's due, it also does recover a lot of MP, which is a big deal for Hero. For example, Hatchet Man is actually a slightly better shieldbreak punish than non-crit charged f-smash, but getting +17 MP instead of -15 MP is often worth the difference. (Especially when either would kill.)

 

[Anomika]

I can only think of Hero's up smash not having scooping hitboxes solely because of the critical hit mechanic. It would be quite outrageous if you made a small mistake and landed an unsafe move on shield (which is not uncommon) and then you die at 40% because of that. That said, it really does make Hero's OoS options pretty mediocre.

 

[Rizen]

You can add & to F-Smash, to D-Smash & alone to Up-Smash.

I do agree that 's Up-Smash crit-less is pretty bleh.

's smashes are largely based around his bury mechanic. I agree Hero's Fsmash is probably better than K.Rool's due to the abysmal hitbox but at least K.Rool's Usmash is F6 and hits pretty high up. K.Rool can run under opponents and hit them really fast, although the lag is horrid.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

's smashes are largely based around his bury mechanic. I agree Hero's Fsmash is probably better than K.Rool's due to the abysmal hitbox but at least K.Rool's Usmash is F6 and hits pretty high up. K.Rool can run under opponents and hit them really fast, although the lag is horrid.

I'm aware of that and I do believe that it's very good for him, but it says more about his bury moves rather then the Smashes as attacks in-general.

 

[webbedspace]

This is a bit off-topic but people are running the story that the Pichu nerfs dropped Pichu out of top tier, and I don't buy it. In my mind, Pichu was always only ever Palutena-tier, which is to say, a refreshing, exciting yet ultimately overrated high tier that was only going to age badly. All the nerfs really did was just encourage people to drop it earlier, accelerating the inevitable.

 

[Aaron1997]

Duck hunt is not top tier, but he is top 15. his zoning skill and edge guarding is broken. However, he has some problems because it is difficult to learn all the skills. If player don't learn his offences and defenses, he'll turn into a weak character. https://t.co/HJsuQZeUBo

— Raito/ライト🐶🐻🐸 (@raito_ssb) August 6, 2019

To get some discussion going, Raito thinks Duck Hunt is borderline Top tier (Not Top tier but close)

 

[Lacrimosa]

So you want to nerf Donkey Kong? But why though?

Just my opinion:
If you can't even remotely see what could have hit you, then it's bad design.
Yeah, git gud and everything but when you have no visual cue then you can't even expect something to not hit.

Like, I get the hate for Zelda's "inconsistent" fair/bair sweetspot but you do see where it is located (that's actually good design).
However, DK's head is nowhere near the opponent (it really is) and still hits. That's not-so-good design.

I mean, you can adapt to it, sure. But it's the game designers "duty" to match the animation somewhat with the hitbox first and foremost.

You can add & to F-Smash, to D-Smash & alone to Up-Smash.

I do agree that 's Up-Smash crit-less is pretty bleh.

Worst uSmash is 's. It's so bad you can't even hit your opponent on plattforms even if you read it because only the last hit hits above plattforms (on BF).
It also doesn't match its animation while I'm at this this topic. Neither does her upAir.
Etc.

 

[Emblem Lord]

I did say MK AND ICs~

How to word this to the godfather of sorts (intended tone is jestful), but you know full well you had a weak mentality with Brawl and gave up and lost any/most interest about year or so after it's release - "MK has a bigger ****ing dtilt" was the end of you.

When Mikeneko came along and had actualised your early-meta theorycraft (which was the standard goal for all Brawl Marth players in perpetuity); and I happen to have met you briefly at a Phili tournament, you gave me the impression you did not care, and I wouldn't be surprised if you never bothered to watch or study his gameplay. And if you did look at it, I know you wouldn't have felt the inspiration or bewilderment it had on the rest of the Brawl gen.
I don't blame you, it was eventually ICs that gave me the same disregard and non-interest of Brawl that stopped me playing it permanently.

The issues of things like Dedede and Falco chaingrabs did just as much early on for killing people's enthusiasm for the game. I have large doubt any modern smash player would be willing to learn how to deal with a character in Ultimate with the toolset of Brawl Falco.

We were "masochists", and going by your persona of strong-will I'm sure you understand, but you weren't young/as bull-headed/it wasn't your first competitive smash game so you dipped.
I'd say a hyper majority of people doing well in Ultimate now are either the long-term Brawl carryovers (getting pretty smol in numbers now), or in a lot larger numbers obviously, people who withstood the "jank" and game-ruining impacts (at least from my perspective) of Smash4. Those same folks are complaining that Ultimate cares about neutral ("THINGS THAT AREN'T ON DLC ARE SAFE"), or that getting two-framed on your ledge snap actually gets you killed, or the worst frame data spot dodges in the series can be canceled with ATTACKS ONLY THATS SO STUPID, or exclaim zero suit or bayo aren't fun because they can't rage jank you as if these are game ruining or genuinely anti-competitive aspects.
The power of masochism by virtue of a 'first competitive smash game' is immense~

But you do bring up a great point on hacking - this was something that made enduring the game a lot more palatable. There was a long period of time where tripping off hacks were standard at locals if not at larger tournaments (you can probably tell by any 'major' tournament whether or not if you didn't see a single trip all set), it was a gentlemen's rule that we all relegated as "okay". This sounds insane now, but hacking the Wii was incredibly simple and music hacks carried people's enjoyment heaps.
But tripping, as silly as it was, is just a small RNG quirk that throughout my time had only ever personally cost me one game in one crucial set, ONCE (tripping out of a grab release tipper fsmash on wario that got me wafted for a stock at a solid lead,of course the tilt that put me in was entirely my fault though). Hero's impacts through RNG is near undoubtedly a lot more significant and yet, at this time, I think it's feasible to live with it (but we'll see).
Mentality wise, there's no way one poor RNG roll could be all to blame for a set loss, and it made walking a lot more considered option. It was you, after all, who cheered the use of walking.

Anyway, you're not wrong that Brawl didn't really have a means of surviving (just as much as S4 didn't/doesn't either). But most of everything else that was going on was normalised to the player base.

Absolutely.

I speak with my actions.

I am not a smash player. I am an FG player. If I deem a game unworthy, I will bounce.

I think playing a game you truly dislike only leads to anger and unhappiness. A game after all is something meant to bring joy. Not anguish or frustration.

But my meta predictions for Brawl panned out. The only one that didn't was my feeling that Diddy would rise and potentially be second to MK. But besides that I was pretty spot on.

Of course I watched Mikeneko. But you are right. At that point I did not care. I was only at that tournament to support my friend who was running it.

I will give Brawl credit for this. It absolutely forced the smash community to understand what makes a fighting game a fighting game. The 3 gameplay states, effective trap situations, option coverage, etc.

Thinking back on it, the leaders in the Brawl Marth community (and by that I mean you, Steel, Pierce, NEO, Kadaj, myself and a few others) were always at the forefront of anything of that nature. Transitioning from neutral to advantage as seamlessly as possible and the like.

Yes, it was absolutely frustrating for me to have an hour long conversation with NEO concerning a particular match concerning optimal spacing and trap scenarios, only to always conclude MK often gets the same result and ALWAYS for less effort.

It was maddening and extremely depressing. So I left. And I do not regret it.

I do not know what you think of me. As a player or as a man. But I am ever the same EL.

Always a student of whatever game I am playing.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Duck hunt is not top tier, but he is top 15. his zoning skill and edge guarding is broken. However, he has some problems because it is difficult to learn all the skills. If player don't learn his offences and defenses, he'll turn into a weak character. https://t.co/HJsuQZeUBo

— Raito/ライト🐶🐻🐸 (@raito_ssb) August 6, 2019

To get some discussion going, Raito thinks Duck Hunt is borderline Top tier (Not Top tier but close)

Raito has been saying stuff along the lines of this for a good while, and I've always wondered whether or not he's correct. Regardless, he certainly makes Duck Hunt seem like a borderline top tier.

But at the same time, a lot of it could be seen as Raito being amazing at Duck Hunt, and he makes I comment that I agree with:

In his case, it is very difficult to solve the problem compared to other characters, and it is also a part where the player is struggling. Public ratings will change when players other than me solve these problems

— Raito/ライト🐶🐻🐸 (@raito_ssb) August 6, 2019

Duck Hunt is a very, very technical character and a lot of it comes down to the player and how they react and utilize Duck Hunt's tools in a given scenario. As of right now, Raito is the only one who seems to have almost mastered, if not fully mastered, the tools and abilities Duck Hunt has. With the rise of more American Duck Hunts placing in bigger tournaments, it's a matter of seeing if they're able to push the character as well as Raito does.

It's hard to say right now whether or not Raito is wrong or right when he says that Duck Hunt is top 15 because of this. I'm not even sure where I'd put Duck Hunt myself (I don't think I have the authority or skill to anyways). Only time can really tell.

 

[Goodstyle_4]

Oh interesting, I had completely missed this behavior. Still, bottom line is that full neutral-b charge is uniquely non-trivial for Hero to get.

Also: I think (leaving out Wario) Hero has the worst f-smash in the game, the worst u-smash in the game, and the worst d-smash in the game. changemymind.jpg

Ugh, I hate that Wario has the worst set of smash attacks in the game and the worst jab in the game. I wish they'd get some buffs.

 

[Impax]

There also just arent enough top level players to go around. If ratio was American I imagine our opinions of his character would be higher because the dog would regularly be placing highly. I mean just look at what happened to ike after Leo dropped him. There are a lot of characters that could get regular top 10 placements with the right player backing them.

But because there arent any players in America that can consistently do that with DHD hell probably continue to be looked at
as a mid tier to low high tier charactet.

 

[Arthur97]

You can add & to F-Smash, to D-Smash & alone to Up-Smash.

I do agree that 's Up-Smash crit-less is pretty bleh.

I used to avoid K. Rool's up smash as well, but recently I have gotten some mileage out of it. Certainly risky though.

Just my opinion:
If you can't even remotely see what could have hit you, then it's bad design.
Yeah, git gud and everything but when you have no visual cue then you can't even expect something to not hit.

Like, I get the hate for Zelda's "inconsistent" fair/bair sweetspot but you do see where it is located (that's actually good design).
However, DK's head is nowhere near the opponent (it really is) and still hits. That's not-so-good design.

I mean, you can adapt to it, sure. But it's the game designers "duty" to match the animation somewhat with the hitbox first and foremost.

Worst uSmash is 's. It's so bad you can't even hit your opponent on plattforms even if you read it because only the last hit hits above plattforms (on BF).
It also doesn't match its animation while I'm at this this topic. Neither does her upAir.
Etc.

It may be a jank hitbox, but how many times are people actually hit by it and not just because of armor?

 

[Lacrimosa]

Ugh, I hate that Wario has the worst set of smash attacks in the game and the worst jab in the game. I wish they'd get some buffs.

No, then he would have little to no weaknesses.
Let's not...do that.

 

[The_Bookworm]

For another stealth change:

Undocumented Joker change, these are related to Grappling Hook so probably they fixed the glitch regarding to tether recovery
air_resist_hang: 0.27 -> 0.24
fighter_offset: 6 -> 8

Also Tetrakarn reflect box has slightly buffed, now having 0.25u larger vertical range

— Meshima (@Meshima_) August 1, 2019

He accidentally listed Makarakarn as "Tetrakarn", but we already covered that stealth change.
The change to Grappling Hook is to fix him sometimes clipping in the stage with his up B.

Ivysaur's Vine Whip also got a change that fixes an issue where its up B would randomly fail to grab the ledge.

 

[blackghost]

Ugh, I hate that Wario has the worst set of smash attacks in the game and the worst jab in the game. I wish they'd get some buffs.

why would wario fsmash need buffs when his ftilt is better than many characters smash attacks?
its like snake asking for a buff on upsmash while having uptilt.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

why would wario fsmash need buffs when his ftilt is better than many characters smash attacks?
its like snake asking for a buff on upsmash while having uptilt.

LOL, and that's not even considering how busted 's Up-Smash already is.

Another example would be .

 

[Rizen]

This is a bit off-topic but people are running the story that the Pichu nerfs dropped Pichu out of top tier, and I don't buy it. In my mind, Pichu was always only ever Palutena-tier, which is to say, a refreshing, exciting yet ultimately overrated high tier that was only going to age badly. All the nerfs really did was just encourage people to drop it earlier, accelerating the inevitable.

Even on Orion Phase 2, Palutena's ranked 4th, ahead of Joker.

's the next Snake: a top tier who places everywhere yet never gets recognized.

 

[Frihetsanka]

's the next Snake: a top tier who places everywhere yet never gets recognized.

I've seen a decent amount of people thinking she's top 3, so at least she gets some recognition.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Even on Orion Phase 2, Palutena's ranked 4th, ahead of Joker.

's the next Snake: a top tier who places everywhere yet never gets recognized.

I'd argue that fit that state a bit tighter. but i wont cause laziness

 

[KirbySquad101]

was starting to do really well near the end of patch 3.0.0, with 2 Pichu's at Top 8 in Smash n' Splash.

But yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a fall-from-grace as big as Pichu's. I do think it's still a very effective and dangerous character, but I imagine how stupidly easy it dies now has become too stressful for some players to handle, particularly VoiD.

 

[Frihetsanka]

was starting to do really well near the end of patch 3.0.0, with 2 Pichu's at Smash n' Splash.

Pichu might be an example of when community outrage leads to overnerfs that make the character not worth playing. Don't get me wrong, he's still high tier, but given how stressful Pichu is to play in tournaments most players would prefer to play a top tier that's less stressful. I think Pichu was in an interesting high-risk high-reward position, now he's in an even higher-risk same rewards position. Still a good character but other characters are better and less stressful. It's not like he was #1 in the game pre-nerf or anything.

At this point in time, #1 is really unclear. Pikachu? Palutena? Inkling? Joker? Someone else? None of them are dominating the scene.

 

[Lacrimosa]

was starting to do really well near the end of patch 3.0.0, with 2 Pichu's at Smash n' Splash.

But yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a fall-from-grace as big as Pichu's. I do think it's still a very effective and dangerous character, but imagine how stupidly easy it dies now has become too stressful for some players to handle, particularly VoiD.

Not having a solid kill confirm is quite tragic. Yes, this rat still has bAir but it's nowhere as good as the very low committal fTilt which just doesn't kill anymore at all.
I'M absolutely not surprised by the fact Pichu has fallen down. If it weren't for Pikachu the baby rat would still play a role but it's the same situation with Marth: Why play him when Lucina is just safer and overall better?
Anyway, no way he's still high-tier. Tournament results should still speak for a character and if a character is completely overshadowed by another, I don't think they are all that viable.

 

[Rizen]

As for #1 I'd say it's Snake but interestingly Wolf still has the highest score on Orion Stats. Part of it is he's very easy to use and good for any situation. It shows how OP he was that even after getting Dsmash nerfed twice plus blaster and upB, he's doing fine.

I think Pichu has some things over pikachu. His vortexes are scary and even though Pichu lost his best kill option in Ftilt he still has a dozen ways to kill you early including jab locks into a powerful Fsmash, throw>thunder and is scary offstage. Pichu is hurting though and much more a glass cannon than before, which is saying something.

 

[Frihetsanka]

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Hero's recovery might be top 5, Zoom is the best recovery move in the game, and a 50% chance to get it every time you do down-B off-stage? That's incredibly good. Characters reliant on edgeguarding or ledgetrapping might struggle vs Hero.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I've seen a decent amount of people thinking she's top 3, so at least she gets some recognition.

Yet there is just about as much people who are still calling her overrated as well. I think she is still a top-tier level, but that is like 15 characters at the moment. But if Wario is going to start rising up as we saw at EVO i think Palu slightly wins the MU vs him, and she does decently vs some of top contenders like Snake and Peach

 

[Impax]

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Hero's recovery might be top 5, Zoom is the best recovery move in the game, and a 50% chance to get it every time you do down-B off-stage? That's incredibly good. Characters reliant on edgeguarding or ledgetrapping might struggle vs Hero.

Wow. While his normal recovery can be edgeguarded it's by no means bad. Crazy that zoom is a 50-50 proposition.

 

[Nidtendofreak]

If you read further down his twitter thread, apparently he got stupid lucky with Zoom: its supposed to be 1/4 chance when off stage.

 

[Frihetsanka]

If you read further down his twitter thread, apparently he got stupid lucky with Zoom: its supposed to be 1/4 chance when off stage.

If you keep reading, he also wrote this:

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I've seen several people say it seems to be far more than 25%. If that's the case then that's huge.

 

[The_Bookworm]

If you keep reading, he also wrote this:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

I've seen several people say it seems to be far more than 25%. If that's the case then that's huge.

Not really. It is still random whether you get it or not. Zoom doesn't have hitbox, nor has a hitbox descending, and (as far as I can tell) it doesn't give intangibility. It can be still intercepted if Hero happens to get it.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Assuming Zoom is in fact supposed to appear more frequently when offstage (which would make sense from a design perspective since it's considerably less useful when onstage), I wonder what counts as "offstage". It can't just be a check for whether Hero is airborne. Is it simply looking for whether Hero is to the left of the left ledge or the right of the right ledge? But how would that handle a stage like Magicant (I know it's not tourney legal but it's still a stage in the game) where you can easily be within those bounds and still be underneath the stage and in need of a recovery?

 

[KirbySquad101]

Not having a solid kill confirm is quite tragic. Yes, this rat still has bAir but it's nowhere as good as the very low committal fTilt which just doesn't kill anymore at all.
I'M absolutely not surprised by the fact Pichu has fallen down. If it weren't for Pikachu the baby rat would still play a role but it's the same situation with Marth: Why play him when Lucina is just safer and overall better?
Anyway, no way he's still high-tier. Tournament results should still speak for a character and if a character is completely overshadowed by another, I don't think they are all that viable.

I wouldn't say all hope is lost for , at least compared to the whole / debacle; both NAKAT and RFang still use it, and while neither had a stellar showing at EVO, NAKAT did do well at Smash Factor 8, placing 9th.

Perhaps we can see NAKAT do well at Super Smash Con like it did there.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Not really. It is still random whether you get it or not. Zoom doesn't have hitbox, nor has a hitbox descending, and (as far as I can tell) it doesn't give intangibility. It can be still intercepted if Hero happens to get it.

I've heard it gives you intangibility on the way up, so your best bet is guessing where Hero will land and hope he doesn't mix up his recovery (he gets his jump back so he can easily do so). Oh, and from what I can tell it's kind of RNG where he'll land.

 

[Rizen]

I've heard it gives you intangibility on the way up, so your best bet is guessing where Hero will land and hope he doesn't mix up his recovery (he gets his jump back so he can easily do so). Oh, and from what I can tell it's kind of RNG where he'll land.

I checked on training with the invincibility indicator on and it doesn't make hero flash on the way up. I think you're right about it being random where he'll land. Hero really is RNG the character.

 

[PK Gaming]

Played a lot of Hero over the weekend/watched some footage of him at mid level play and I've updated my thoughts on the character:

• I changed my mind on Hero's buttons. Bair is absurdly slow, but the range this move covers is ridiculous. You can use it for spacing, landing, edgeguarding... it's a lot more versatile than I expected and very effective vs enemies who are on a platform. Fair is pretty decent, and I imagine Hero players will start relying on it for neutral/pressure. His fsmash is threatening too; it's got huge range and is boosted by oomph and especially psych up. You generally shouldn't be hit by this but you definitely need to respect it.
• Jesus Christ that standing grab range. It gets worse and worse the more I play him; hero is super susceptible to shield (if he isn't pressuring you with projectiles) because his grab game is awful
• I'm starting to think the biggest problem with the character are the damage values on his specials are. Zap and Frizz specials do absurd damage and are extremely punishing. The fully charged frizz spell is obvious, but even his tier 2 spell is problematic due to its damage and edeguard capability
• Good Hero's won't waste their time with random chance, imo. There are list of goto spells to use when depending on your opponent's location, such as when they're far away/angel platform (buffs like Oomph, Acceleratle, projectiles, etc) and up close (Flame Slash, Kafreeze, Hatchet Man etc).
• In contrast to what I said earlier, there's use in near split second spell usage where you check to see if the first spell isn't Kamikaze, Kaclang, etc and use it instantly. I do this when I want to get my opponents off of me.
• He's weak to pressure and fast characters in general. It can be difficult to deal with characters like ZSS and Joker in a matchup that feels like they run circles around you

Overall I think he's a strong, inconsistent character. I doubt he'll be top tier and I don't see him being a menace at the highest levels of play either. There's definitely going to be a learning curve to fighting him because people are going to get hit by his 39% damaging spells and get tilted.

 

[DJ3DS]

From my time playing as and against Hero, I think you can probably add to the list of characters struggles with, for quite a few reasons:

Spoiler

- ROB has the capacity to bully and combo Hero up close quite a bit, thanks to his significantly superior frame data.
- ROBs (usually awful) disadvantage doesn't get exploited here half as badly as it usually does.
- On disadvantage, ROBs Up B and offstage projectiles allows him to bypass Magic Burst edgeguards many others can't avoid.
- ROB can pretty safely and non-committally apply edgeguarding pressure without leaving the stage with lasers and gyro. This allows him to easily attempt to intercept zoom attempts with a double jump upair that can kill if you predict the zoom location correctly.
- If Hero is forced to Kaswoosh, ROBs Side B intercepts this for free.
- Gyro holds down the neutral a lot, and the hurtbox can interrupt many of Heros projectiles.
- Laser can very quickly intercept attempts at using Down B across stage.

Honestly, as much as Hero can sometimes be incredibly tilting and has some very strong options, I do feel that he loses to too many things to be a serious contender. At the same time, a character with his special moveset would likely be broken if given the rest of the tools needed to compete.

 

[SwagGuy99]

I've seen a decent amount of people thinking she's top 3, so at least she gets some recognition.

Yeah, IMO, Palutena is a character who is a bit more polarizing than people like to make her out to be which could be why some people think she's Top 3 and why some think she's barely Top 15. Depending on how important a player thinks a solid ground game and having a more adaptable moveset are in a competitive environment, opinions on her will vary a little bit.

Her ground game is almost non-existent with her only decent grounded moves being side-b, grab, and up-smash. Her other grounded moves are all very slow and very situational for me to say that they are any better than below average at best.

Her air game, however, is very good with all of her aerials being pretty useful (with the exception of d-air which still isn't terrible). F-air is quick and deals decent damage, b-air is a bit slower and more punishable if it misses but grants her some invincibility and is powerful, n-air is a great combo tools, and up-air is a great juggling tool. D-air isn't that great as it is pretty punishable as it's hitbox is poor and it is very laggy. However, it's meteor smash hitbox is consistent so it has that going for it.

Attributes wise, she's decent, but isn't as good as one might think. Her air speed is surprisingly not that great, her weight is also below average, and her hurtbox is gigantic for someone of her weight meaning that she's also easy to combo. However, her dash, walk, and air acceleration are all above average so it's not as if she has horrible attributes or anything.

Also, while this is a bit more opinion and player skill based, I don't think Palutena is adaptable as some other characters due to her poor ground game. Some characters (like Roy, for example) are going to stay close to the ground while they are on stage, using mostly short-hop aerials and grounded moves. Palutena doesn't always have the options to stop Roy from getting in range to land a hit because all of her ideal options are too slow or too punishable to throw out. There are other characters who can just kind of camp out Palutena as well, although she does have a reflector to help alleviate that somewhat.

So yeah, she's good, but overall, she has more weaknesses than some people would like to admit she does. She's Top 15 in my opinion, probably not Top 10.

 

[Frihetsanka]

It turns out Hero's Zoom odds get multiplied by 3 when he is at close enough (40 units) from blastline, this results Zoom probability is increased to ~53% from ~23%.

ルーラは撃墜ラインに近いときだけ抽選確率が3倍に増加する、1回のコマンドで出現する確率は約23%から約53%に増加する

— Meshima (@Meshima_) August 6, 2019

Update on Hero Zoom. I think this will tremendously help Hero's recovery and should make it risky to attempt to edgeguard him offstage, since he might just get lucky and get a Zoom. It's probably safer to just try to ledgetrap him (in case he doesn't get a Zoom, if he gets one you're probably out of luck and he gets to recover nearly for free).

 

[ZephyrZ]

And what happens when Hero doesn't get zoom? He either has to air dodge or use his double jump to cancel his down special selection. 50% isn't really all that it's made out to be - that's also roughly a 50% chance of failure.

The easiest way to edge guard hero from my experience is to play reactive and intercept his up b anyway.

 

[|RK|]

And what happens when Hero doesn't get zoom? He either has to air dodge or use his double jump to cancel his down special selection. 50% isn't really all that it's made out to be - that's also roughly a 50% chance of failure.

The easiest way to edge guard hero from my experience is to play reactive and intercept his up b anyway.

You'd think so, but they've done the math:

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Chars that can skip disadvantage entirely terrify me, so this is the very first thing I've seen from Hero that makes me worry about how healthy he is.

At least he doesn't get off ledge for free.

 

[Frihetsanka]

At least he doesn't get off ledge for free.

If you like gambling you could drop down and use down-B and hope for a Zoom (you could even do it twice if you're willing to die if you don't get it), might be worth it against strong ledgetrappers.

Apparently you're more likely to get Metal Slash if an opponent is metal. I wonder if anything else is affected like this?

Confirmed Metal Slash has 4x odds multiplier when there is a metal opponents.

メタル化・アストロン中の敵がいるとメタル斬りの抽選確率が4倍になる。 https://t.co/iUQcQxural

— Meshima (@Meshima_) August 6, 2019