Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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This should probably be brought up here but following a pretty devastating EVO loss, Fatality is considering giving up on competitive play. Despite feeling like he's reached the ceiling with Falcon, he feels incapable of abandoning him, despite not even performing that well at locals, and is considering putting his talent to better use elsewhere. He suggests that he's either going to focus on content creation, or try picking up Chrom.
https://twitter.com/FatalityFalcon
It sucks when you're dedicated to a character when they're not consistently good enough to perform at top levels.

You could be dedicated to these characters for personal reasons: favorite series/games, design/aesthetic, playstyle, history with the character in past games, etc. But none of that means the character is top or high tier material. I'm sure there are plenty of top tier potential players that ARE held back by their characters. But they're dedicated enough to stick with them.

The people who love their main character and happen to be higher tiers are lucky as that's not always the case in a game with 75+ characters. I'm sure Fatality feels like he won't enjoy the game as much at a competitive level if he's not using the character(s) he enjoys.
 

Emblem Lord

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Not to come across as "parents are fighting" (never would happen, fyi), but revisionism is a *****. It will always be a *****. This applies to both/any side or perspective. So I'm not saying "trust me blindly here" or whatever.

The goal post for banning MK in Brawl was STEEP, and I'd say inherently was made to never be achievable in the first place.

In countless community and backroom votes, the requirement stated by THE BIGGIES (MLG/The Midwest Cartel [even if this latter group were mostly pro-ban]) was 60 or 65%, in other words "hyper majorities".
I wouldn't want to guess, nor feel like scouring through the past to find the results, but I think almost every attempt ever had more than 50% of the vote being in favour of a ban, I think the best it ever mustered was between 55 and 59%.

By the time MK was "banned", as a decision made by a group of TOs known as the UBR, it was a unanimous decision - one person abstained. That West Coast TO ended up causing strife publicly afterwards.

How it fell apart incredibly quickly were two factors:
"Holy **** how could we ban the only character who actually has a neutral game vs Ice Climbers?" (as in, everyone's main would be near auto-lose or too risky a neutral, while MK at least had multiple jumps and down air to play anti-grab that most players could execute after 3-4 years of the game).
and
Alex Strife, Apex TO: "Japan won't come to American tournaments if MK is banned".


The mood changed rapidly.
ICs were becoming just as much of a problem for the game's health, and it just so happened the easiest player-based solution was also the biggest problem for the health of the game (but had produced a scene at that point of time who generally produced an 'immunity' to said plague). When talking about issues with stages, all the stages we lost due to MK being too dominant there, were also all the stages ICs essentially couldn't win on.
The multiple years of surgical rule changes and stuff backfired. Conservatism with stages won out forever as a result and we'll never see a perfectly fine stage that a character can shark on (when those potential sharkers mostly "sucked" prior to Bayo) ever coming back because of "trauma".

A fairly large amount of people who voted no to banning him were in a camp of "it's too late", "people have put too much time into him, it isn't fair" "I learned the MK match up and I like the challenge" (hint: this includes me).
Thus all the angst seen since then that oft is interpreted by people as "rushing". I am unbelievably afraid of a repeat of "it's too late" in any situation, thus my general stance of 'get rid of bayo' in S4 that people would remember me for.

I was mostly always on the fence for an MK ban, pretty sure I was "no" at the earliest stages, and I also empathised with the idea of "too late". I had a strong feeling that if S4's lifetime continued that by the time Bayo reached these "numbers" people were setting as goalposts we would've been hit with the "too late" once more. I would say I'm 99.9% confident on that, the human mass psyche aching in my bones.

In hindsight though, with those lovely 20/20 lenses, if we had banned MK shortly after genesis1, and then appropriately responded in a similar way to ICs once NAKAT figured out "mid range dash grab buffered back roll desync at low %" (and you had 3 opportunities per game to abuse this) was an almost unloseable strategy against probably all bar 4-5 characters, I am almost just as certain that Smash today would be entirely different, and how Brawl is looked back upon would be entirely different. We would've likely maintained popularity for a lot longer too.

But at the same time, a lot of what made the Brawl narrative so amazing to many was in fact due to Meta Knight.
If we banned MK really early, would've japan followed suit? Would we be struggling years later to bridge the West and Japan like is commonplace now?
If that occurred would we have had probably the single best set in smash history (Apex GFs, Salem vs Mew2King)?
Would "heroes" like MikeNeko, or Salem's performance at said Apex, or uhhh, a certain Snake main, etc etc ever been as emotive or powerful without the dynamic MK forced upon us?
Mew2King's legend of dominance could really only be mildly compared to ZeRo in S4, how he affected our lives was... something else.

Smash today would be incredibly different, the result as is might've been for the best.

In general for most national voting, if a referendum occurs and its a 50.1/49.9% split, the former wins, and once the pain and doomsday calls of the latter are actualized as falsehood, terms like "everyone" or holistic implications become a lot more common place. Most agree MK killed Brawl, whether you'd get the strong "No"-ers (like M2K) to agree he should've been banned is another thing, but 'if he never existed in the first place things would've been better' is an almost everyone opinion out of the social groups that I am/was involved with, at least.
People that think banning MK was the answer always amuse me.

Yes, he was a god.

But Brawl itself impeded competition. MK was the ICing (see what I did there) on the cake and not the only nonsense character. Not by a mile. It was his ease of use combined on top of high reward and being able to deal with virtually any situation with basic answers that made him so much stronger then the rest of the cast.

But banning him would not have "saved" the game. Brawl could not be saved. There was WAY too much going on. For heaven's sake, people were hacking their consoles just so they did not have to deal with tripping.
 

PK Bash

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- :ultness: just can't seem to get rid of the "amazing at regionals, eeeeeehhhhhh at majors" stink he has on him, with not a single Ness breaking top 48 (Gackt placing 49th is pretty good, though); BestNess dropping didn't help things at all, but in terms of meta development, Ness has probably been one of the most stagnant characters in all of Ultimate.
Ness had a very odd tournament. Gackt getting 49 was sick, but pretty much all the other notable Nesses - FOW, Awestin, SexyBeast420, PEW and Lumbre - got 65th! (BestNess was not in attendance but idc. He would have placed similarly, and unlike all of these guys, he is not a solo Ness)

(EDIT apparently Lumbre got 129th. My B! It keeps changing certain players' placings for some reason.)

There was nothing really crazy or unexpected as far as I'm concerned, apart from Lumbre taking the set over Eim (JP best Joker who then went on to beat Gackt, so let's not make any crazy judgements about the MU). The Nesses just played to where they should have, no major surprises good or bad.

Im moreso bringing it up because I find it very interesting that many of the Nesses - solo Ness players, at that - all showed up at 65th or slightly higher in one case. This may be news to some (including yourself maybe?), as SmashGG errored out earlier and listed all these players at significantly lower placements then where they actually ended up.

I don't think Ness is that great, to be honest, but that is one hell of a strong batting average for a high-mid character if you ask me.

Shoutouts to FOW btw who, in my opinion, has pushed Ness' frontiers further than anyone else has yet in this game (for example, uair out of dthrow is definitely optimal - yet most Nesses would prefer to ignore dthrow entirely). Extremely creative player and always an absolute wonder to watch. If it wasn't for him, I would 100% agree the character has a pretty stagnant meta.
 
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Rizen

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1So, questions for the thread: which characters do you think got functional game plans in the transition to Ultimate that they didn't have before, but just don't have quite enough juice in them yet?

2On the flip side, which fighters do you think are dangerously reliant on a few tools or obnoxious to play against?

3Edit: Another question: Is there a character whose design changed in a way that you didn't care for, even if they're still strong?
1:ultyounglink: is a good character who's under tuned. This is a common theme in Smash: the devs are so afraid of making Link OP that he ends up being mediocre. YL won't be killing until 130-160% and that doesn't fit the meta full of characters like Wolf, Wario, etc that can kill you at 80%. Players gravitate more to strong punishes than strong neutral. YL's a neutral monster but he has to outplay the opponent much more than they outplay him. This is great vs light characters like the rats who have poor range and thrive off winning neutral>comboing but matches with characters with staying power can drag on forever. Several matches like Wario IMO YL loses just by virtue of how much better the other character survives and kills.

YL also has poor payoff for how technical he is. If you don't know the MU and/or aren't playing on point YL's going to have a hard time. He can do things like Fair1>land before the second cut comes out>combo that into Dtilt>jump>upB if he gets the read and %s right. I've lost games because I wasn't paying enough attention to the opponent's % and Fair1 popped the opponent up too high and Dtilt whiffed; I should have use Usmash as a finisher. This is also very susceptible to OoS.
There are top tiers and even high tiers (like Ness) who can have the same basic game plan but execute it much more easily. YL can do all that^ stuff for a kill at 130 where Wolf can simply fish for Bair to kill at 90%.

Then the patch power creep is giving characters YL beats like Mewtwo much higher reward so YL has to outplay them really hard too. It's stressful using him.

I still think YL's high tier but the meta is not favorable to him.

2:ultlucina: is a basic character who wins because her space control and option coverage is so darn good. She can Fair and it covers a huge area most characters would have to be micro spacing well to hit the right part of. She's also fast for a sword character. I like the idea of :ultmarth: because he's great at zoning yet has to zone propperly with tippers to get good results. Lucina's lazy good with no stipulations.

3:ultwolf:. I really liked how Brawl Wolf played and Ultimate Wolf feels sluggish and basic, being carried by OP kill moves. But I'm finally making friends with Ult Wolf as he is after avoiding him for a long time.
 
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Rizen

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Ehhhh

YL racks up that 130 super fast and has kill confirms at those percents. It's not that his neutral is lacking or that he's just barely getting you to that percent.
I said he's a neutral monster. He beats the rats, Wolf and pretty much everyone except Olimar in neutral. But how many YLs do you see in top 100 of Evo? The problem is he doesn't appeal to the metagame. People like to make a read and get good payoff in this game with 6f input lag. Top players like Tweek, Mr.R and T dropped him because they like other characters better. YL gets outclassed by top tiers and lacks top 100 player representation, unless Tweek picks him up again. He needs a draw and what he has doesn't work.
 

Emblem Lord

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Can we please keep talking about the input lag?

Community complained about Samsho input lag in the flippin demo. SNK's response?

"Dang our bad. We gotchu fam."

Input lag sliced in HALF!!!!!

Now THAT'S a company that cares.
 
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NotLiquid

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Seems like Cosmos is going to be taking a break from tournaments after Smash Con for a while. Inkling is likely going to have a much more subdued Season 2 presence because of that, but he's earned it. Looks like the biggest reps will be based outside of the US for a while.
 
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What WAS the reason for the input lag? Was it just by design?

I like the idea of :ultmarth: because he's great at zoning yet has to zone propperly with tippers to get good results. Lucina's lazy good with no stipulations.
This is why I don't care to see Lucina. I find her so unappealing to play as, play against, and even to watch. There's nothing interesting about her and gets more reward than I feel she should. Marth's approach is still way better imo. Just wish they fixed his tipper a bit. Even if they didn't tweak the hitbox, make the hits stronger. I feel there's so little reward off of his tippers in general. At least when you compare Roy and Chrom it's like yeah Chrom kills really well but Roy has some amazing killing power when sweetspotted.

Also yes, I agree. Sakurai has proven countless times that he fears the Link(s) and therefore keeps them in lockdown.
 
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I find her so unappealing to play as, play against, and even to watch. There's nothing interesting about her and gets more reward than I feel she should. Marth's approach is still way better imo. Just wish they fixed his tipper a bit.
Interesting, I pretty much have the opposite view, Lucina's design being better and more fun to play against (and to play as), with Marth feeling much less consistent, both to play as and against. I value non-jankyness/gimmickness highly, both to play as and against, and tend to prefer fighting many top tiers and high tiers over many low and mid tiers that often seem to be more janky/gimmicky in this game. Lucina, Wolf, and Palutena are some of the best designed characters in the game, in my opinion. Mario is cool, too, and Mewtwo.

Leffen made a list for this, actually:

I don't agree with it 100% but I do agree with large portions of it. Obviously, this is highly opinion-based, and other players might actually like figuring out gimmicks. Me, I'd rather it'd be fundamentals vs fundamentals (and this is probably one of the reasons why many people find Olimar frustrating to fight, since he doesn't really play like most characters).
 
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If we're talking about things to complain about, it really sucks that EVO couldn't have more than one stream available for Smash Ultimate :\ I can understand why, seeing that they had to use the other streams for their other fighting game titles (Mortal Kombat and DragonBall FighterZ also had their GFs as well), but so many good games (Elegant vs. ESAM, MVD vs. Stroder, Nairo vs. Marss, WaDi vs. Light) weren't shown on their stream; I do have to give props to ZeRo for managing to get footage of some of the games that the official EVO stream missed.

Oh yeah, and Ultimate STILL doesn't have a Hazards toggle on the stage selection. That's gotta be really annoying for people who want to go to stages like Smashville or Town and City.
 
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KakuCP9

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I don't give a **** about whether people think Wolf and Lucina are 'basic ' or if they're 'fun', as long people acknowledge that they are top tier characters, that's all I need.
 
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People saying Lucina is basic and boring should watch ProtoBanham, he shows us how hype she can be.
It was some great sets from PB, but again, she's still basic as a character. PB spaced well, and edgeguarded even better. The stage spike at the end was great.

But Marth is still more interesting as a character. It's just my opinion of the two. Her game is basic. Doesn't make her any worse. It's just how I feel.
 

Arthur97

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Lucina is very much a basic character, but she's definitely not boring. A character who's main strengths comes from reactive play and punishes is imo the opposite of boring.
Exactly. Boring is subjective. Some people find history boring, some find it interesting. Some like math, some find it boring.
It was some great sets from PB, but again, she's still basic as a character. PB spaced well, and edgeguarded even better. The stage spike at the end was great.

But Marth is still more interesting as a character. It's just my opinion of the two. Her game is basic. Doesn't make her any worse. It's just how I feel.
....This really isn't the place to talk about their characters. Plus, interesting is subjective just like boring.
 
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Exactly. Boring is subjective. Some people find history boring, some find it interesting. Some like math, some find it boring.

....This really isn't the place to talk about their characters. Plus, interesting is subjective just like boring.
I've already said it's just my opinion of the character. I acknowledge the subjectivity of it. Doesn't make her any less top tier so you're right; it's not the place for it so sorry it was brought up. Let's move on.

Gluttony almost had that set with Tweek. Wario can handle himself well against PT for sure. I noticed Tweek likes to use the pokemon in direct order a lot. Squirtle early percents for combos until the advantage dies, switch to Bulbasaur for some neutral fun, close it out with either Bulba or Charizard at the end. Being a very diverse character like that helps cover a ton of match ups, I'm sure.

None of the pokemon in his/her arsenal can do it all, but Pokemon Trainer can, and I think that's easily his/her greatest strength.
 
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|RK|

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I said he's a neutral monster. He beats the rats, Wolf and pretty much everyone except Olimar in neutral. But how many YLs do you see in top 100 of Evo? The problem is he doesn't appeal to the metagame. People like to make a read and get good payoff in this game with 6f input lag. Top players like Tweek, Mr.R and T dropped him because they like other characters better. YL gets outclassed by top tiers and lacks top 100 player representation, unless Tweek picks him up again. He needs a draw and what he has doesn't work.
I feel like you established the actual reasons YL isn't in the top 100 (top players like other chars better), but then couched it in how he supposedly gets outclassed by other top tiers. He has his differences, but I certainly see no proof of him being outclassed.

Top players don't just choose the best char, they choose the best char that works for them. Tweek went for PT, a char who people were counting out of top 10 until Tweek picked PT up.
 
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Official EVO results are in:

1. MKLeo :ultjoker:
2. Tweek :ultpokemontrainer:
3. Gluttony :ultwario:
4. Samsora :ultpeach:
5. Raito :ultduckhunt:
5. ProtoBanham :ultlucina::ultinkling:
7. Light :ultfox:
7. zackaray :ultwolf:
9. Nietono :ultwario:
9. Abadango :ultwario:
9. kameme :ultmegaman:
9. Dabuz :ultolimar::ultrosalina:
13. Scatt :ultmegaman::ultsnake:
13. Mr R :ultchrom::ultsnake:
13. Marss :ultzss:
13. Shuton :ultolimar:
17. Elegant :ultluigi:
17. Maister :ultgnw:
17. HIKARU :ultpokemontrainer:
17. Pandarian :ultpokemontrainer:
17. WaDi :ultrob:
17. Nairo :ultpalutena::ultzss:
17. Plup :ultmegaman:
17. Shogun :ultsnake:
25. ESAM :ultpikachu:
25. Vintendo :ultduckhunt:
25. Seven :ultfalco:
25. Sinji :ultpacman:
25. Rotsuku :ultyoshi:
25. Stroder :ultgreninja::ultmario:
25. kept :ultvillager::ultisabelle:
25. Myran :ultolimar:
33. Masashi :ultcloud:
33. Sparg0 :ultcloud:
33. MastaMario :ultmario:
33. Puppeh :ultpokemontrainer:
33. Cyro :ultroy::ultmetaknight:
33. kome :ultshulk:
33. Salem :ultsnake::ultshulk:
33. Dragoomba :ultrob:
33. ZAKI :ultkingdedede:
33. CaptainZack :ultbayonetta::ultdaisy:
33. Lea :ultgreninja:
33. Chag :ultpalutena::ultinkling:
33. Zenyou :ultmario:
33. Mao :ultlucina:
33. Skilly :ultvillager::ultpalutena:
33. Eim :ultjoker:
49. Atelier :ultwolf:
49. VoiD :ultpikachu::ultwolf:
49. Larry Lurr :ultwolf::ultfalco:
49. Prodigy :ultmario:
49. Gackt:ultness:
49. Flow :ultroy:
49. Etsuji :ultlucina:
49. Javi :ultlucina::ultwolf:
49. Lui$ :ultfox::ultdoc:
49. AC :ultsnake:
49. Mew2King :ultlucina::ultbowser::ultjoker:
49. Wizzrobe :ultwolf:
49. Jw :ultgreninja:
49. iStudying :ultgreninja:
49. Seth :ultyoshi:
49. Umeki :ultdaisy:
65. MuteAce :ultpeach:
65. ANTi :ultmario:
65. Dark Wizzy :ultmario:
65. T :ultlink:
65. Cosmos :ultinkling:
65. MVD :ultsnake:
65. RFang:ultpichu:
65. Seagull Joe :ultpalutena::ultwolf:
65. Ogey :ultwolf::ultfalcon:
65. Mada :ultpikachu:
65. falln :ultrobin:
65. YOC :ultcloud:
65. PEW :ultness:
65. Awestin :ultness:
65. varun :ultwiifittrainer:
65. SexyBeast420 :ultness:
65. RAIN :ultwolf:
65. Logix :ultike:
65. Nicko :ultshulk:
65. sm0ke :ultpokemontrainer:
65. YMCA :ultdk:
65. Frawg :ultbayonetta:
65. SoulArts :ultshulk:
65. NAKAT :ultpichu:
65. huto :ultmario:
65. ZD :ultfox::ultwolf:
65. Phantom :ultpalutena::ultjoker:
65. Stronghold :ultmario:
65. Biddy :ultyounglink:
65. 8BitMan :ultrob:
65. CORONA17 :ultchrom::ultwolf::ultbowser:
65. FOW :ultness:
97. Konga :ultdk:
97. Rickles :ultganondorf:
97. BassMage :ultjigglypuff:
97. Widget :ultgnw:
97. Ozone :ultduckhunt:
97. crow :ultfox:
97. Mr. Newport :ultlittlemac:
97. Osiris :ultsnake:
97. Denti :ultpokemontrainer:
97. Wisdom :ultduckhunt:
97. EKING :ultpacman:
97. Death Arcana :ulttoonlink:
97. Shoe :ultzss:
97. Razo :ultdaisy:
97. Denti :ultpokemontrainer:
97. LightningCam :ultdiddy:
97. 0mart :ultsnake:
97. Thirsty :ultpalutena::ultsimon:
97. Zace :ultpikachu:
97. Phoenix :ultsonic::ultgreninja:
97. Diamond D. :ultjoker:
97. Lima :ultbayonetta:
97. SS Rose :ultbayonetta:
97. Brosinex :ultryu::ultken:
97. Charliedaking :ultwolf:
97. Duwang :ultmario:
97. Heeew :ultrichter:
97. Mr ConCon :ultluigi:
97. BreaD :ultpalutena:
97. DD :ultwario:
97. Cheeks :ultcloud:
97. takera :ultken:

Notable players out earlier:

129. Mr E :ultlucina: (27th seed)
129. Fatality :ultfalcon: (40th seed)
129. Ling Ling :ultpeach: (53rd seed)
129. Suinoko :ultyounglink: (75th seed)
129. cookieslayer :ultyounglink: (85th seed)
129. Dakpo :ultdiddy: (87th seed)
129. Uncivil ninja :ultshulk: (92nd seed)
129. Tyroy :ultpichu: (96th seed)
129. Banana Boy :ultyoshi: (99th seed)
129. Snoop :ultyoshi: (100th seed)
193. ven :ultzelda: (55th seed)

After what looked like was going to be a repeat of Smash Factor 8, MKLeo, just like a Phantom Thief, swipes the tournament right from under everyone's noses; looks like he's not quite ready to relinquish his title of best Smash Ultimate player just yet ;)
 
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Kokiden

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Glad to see Joker win again, and that was the best Grand Finals for Ultimate thus far for me.

I just don’t like how after something like this, there is a fear of characters getting nerfed.

I don’t think punishing a player for doing well with a character is a good way to balance the game going forward.

Not a fan of this nerf happy culture we’ve got going on now.
 

Hydreigonfan01

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I do legitimately think Joker is the best character in the game, like with Melee Puff considering only 1 player mains both of them. But I don't think Joker is broken like Bayo was. MKLeo just seems to be heavily above everyone else, even if not to the same level as Zero was in Smash 4.
 
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Impax

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Mar 18, 2015
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150
So what characters didnt get repped in top 100

Corrin
Ice climbers
King K Rool
Kirby
Little Mac
Lucas
Lucario
Mewtwo
Metaknight
Plant
Ridley
Samus/Dark Samus
Zelda
All the miis

I think the lack of mewtwo and Samus surprise me the most

Edit: Forgot the Pits
 
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Official EVO results are in:

193. ven :ultzelda: (55th seed)
Hurts to see but it really was to be expected. Maybe because of the character but it'S rather obvious then Ven is currently in a "severe" low. Happens to every player once in a while but let'S see what he'Ll do at SSC next week.
Myst is also at SSC so there is potentially more representation for her.

But it because rather clear: 4.0.0 buffed characters that weren' that great and she's still untouched. Looks like tourney will get even more troublesome from now on. I think my optimism is gone and she'll be at the lower end of low-tier by the end of the patch, right above Kirby and Mac.
 
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The_Bookworm

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Hurts to see but it really was to be expected. Maybe because of the character but it'S rather obvious then Ven is currently in a "severe" low. Happens to every player once in a while but let'S see what he'Ll do at SSC next week.
Myst is also at SSC so there is potentially more representation for her.

But it because rather clear: 4.0.0 buffed characters that weren' that great and she's still untouched. Looks like tourney will get even more troublesome from now on. I think my optimism is gone and she'll be at the lower end of low-tier by the end of the patch, right above Kirby and Mac.
Many high level players got knocked out earlier as well. The feeling of being in EVO can stike nerves into a person. ven admitted himself that he wasn't playing that good.


Still think she is a solid mid tier myself. Not really going to get one bad placing really affect my overall viewpoints on the character.
ven does sound like that he is getting burnt up lately though.
 

blackghost

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RIP bayo. the character has no chance in her current state. you cant kill you will never be relevant.

2/3 always impacts a lot of games but thats just EVO if faster games like dbfz or marvel has to do it as well we dont get to complain.

ok what are we gonna do with PT? thats a discussion we need to have is this character just more than the sum of its parts? have we overlooked PT basically having batwithin on command for disadvantage?
Honestly to me to appears that squirtles metagame has progressed a lot and it is pushing the character higher. zard is not anything to be afraid of but is he an actual negative?
 

The_Bookworm

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Messages
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RIP bayo. the character has no chance in her current state. you cant kill you will never be relevant.

2/3 always impacts a lot of games but thats just EVO if faster games like dbfz or marvel has to do it as well we dont get to complain.

ok what are we gonna do with PT? thats a discussion we need to have is this character just more than the sum of its parts? have we overlooked PT basically having batwithin on command for disadvantage?
Honestly to me to appears that squirtles metagame has progressed a lot and it is pushing the character higher. zard is not anything to be afraid of but is he an actual negative?
Where PkMn Trainer is specifically right now is a mystery. Does Charizard's buffs outweigh Ivysaur's nerfs, is right now a discussion within the PkMn Trainer playerbase themselves. The character is amazing either way regardless.

I think the whole "Charizard is a liability to the team that brings PkMn Trainer down" thing is now a thing of the past. While Zard is probably is least competent when used as a solo character, it has great strengths on its down, and the ability to frame 1 dodge to its teammates is very good. Zard's own merits just keep on rising more and more as time goes on.

The fact that Zard essentially has an Ike n-air now thanks to 4.0.0 is going boost it further as well.
 
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Rizen

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I didn't want to check here until after I finished Evo.
I feel like you established the actual reasons YL isn't in the top 100 (top players like other chars better), but then couched it in how he supposedly gets outclassed by other top tiers. He has his differences, but I certainly see no proof of him being outclassed.

Top players don't just choose the best char, they choose the best char that works for them. Tweek went for PT, a char who people were counting out of top 10 until Tweek picked PT up.
He's out classed less after the patches but if you want a mid range projectile zoner :ultolimar: does most everything better. He builds damage better, has scarier throws, safer attacks especially smashes and a better recovery. If someone asked "why should I play YL over Olimar?" the only answer is maybe the Peach MU.

Pre patch :ultpichu: and :ultwolf: also do similar things to YL, but less so, better. Pichu had a similar projectile zoning to combos to kill confirms game but vortexed and killed much better. But now he's got a lot more glass in his cannon. Wolf plays in similar spacing but has safer, much stronger kill options and better CQC frame data. Wolf's air speed and Fair hitbox are also big pluses.
YL's tether grab does hold him back as tomahawking is strong, especially for characters who can combo off aerials and YL can't do it.
 

Wunderwaft

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RIP bayo. the character has no chance in her current state. you cant kill you will never be relevant.

2/3 always impacts a lot of games but thats just EVO if faster games like dbfz or marvel has to do it as well we dont get to complain.

ok what are we gonna do with PT? thats a discussion we need to have is this character just more than the sum of its parts? have we overlooked PT basically having batwithin on command for disadvantage?
Honestly to me to appears that squirtles metagame has progressed a lot and it is pushing the character higher. zard is not anything to be afraid of but is he an actual negative?
I don't see how Zard brings the whole team down. We've seen how Tweek used Zard to survive longer and get a kill when he needed. PT is supposed to be used as a team where each Pokemon compliments one another and cover each other's weaknesses. A lot of people judged PT as a character by evaluating each Pokemon individually instead of judging the whole package as it is, which I feel doesn't truly give a proper analysis on what the character is capable of.
 
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blackghost

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Where PkMn Trainer is specifically right now is a mystery. Does Charizard's buffs outweigh Ivysaur's nerfs, is right now a discussion within the PkMn Trainer playerbase themselves. The character is amazing either way regardless.

I think the whole "Charizard is a liability to the team that brings PkMn Trainer down" thing is now a thing of the past. While Zard is probably is least competent when used as a solo character, it has great strengths on its down, and the ability to frame 1 dodge to its teammates is very good. Zard's own merits just keep on rising more and more as time goes on.

The fact that Zard essentially has an Ike n-air now thanks to 4.0.0 is going boost it further as well.
i actually forgot about ivysaur not having a gun on its up air and down air now. that will hurt the character. even when a character goes from having a ridiculous move just be good hurts a lot.


*stares at pichu dtilt*
 
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Yeah. I mean, I think Lucina kinda boring too, but watching Proto use Dancing Blade 1 to extend his edgeguards and ledge stall, or make setups into crazy spikes. Or effortlessly convert into attack cancel Ftilt to catch things, or play a mad fluid neutral and footsies game, and it makes the character look far from simple.
 

SolidSense

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Pokemon trainer is all about how you look at them. You could see it as squirtle and ivysaur being dragged down by Charizard, but a more accurate picture may be Charizard lifted up by squirtle and ivysaur.

Basically, Charizard is a heavy who avoids all the typical downsides of being heavy:

1. He's fast
2. He has a good recovery
3. Most importantly, he doesn't have to be a heavy at combo percents.

You only think that Charizard sucks because he comes out at 100 percent or so and so you often see him getting KOed. But what you don't see is how much harder it is to get squirtle and ivysaur to 100 percent in the first place compared to any other heavy.

PT can be seen as a heavy who enjoys all the upsides of being a heavy without getting comboed into oblivion.

That sounds like top tier design to me.
 

|RK|

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I didn't want to check here until after I finished Evo.

He's out classed less after the patches but if you want a mid range projectile zoner :ultolimar: does most everything better. He builds damage better, has scarier throws, safer attacks especially smashes and a better recovery. If someone asked "why should I play YL over Olimar?" the only answer is maybe the Peach MU.

Pre patch :ultpichu: and :ultwolf: also do similar things to YL, but less so, better. Pichu had a similar projectile zoning to combos to kill confirms game but vortexed and killed much better. But now he's got a lot more glass in his cannon. Wolf plays in similar spacing but has safer, much stronger kill options and better CQC frame data. Wolf's air speed and Fair hitbox are also big pluses.
YL's tether grab does hold him back as tomahawking is strong, especially for characters who can combo off aerials and YL can't do it.
They're not quite comparable.

Olimar, especially post-patch, is heavily bait and punish. You use side b to force your opponent to do something punishable or make them force their way in.

Young Link uses his projectiles not just to harass, but also to directly confirm into his various kill options/combos. He can do this all from a distance, something Oli wishes he could. Not to mention his incredible shield safety that lets him pressure shields up close. Honestly, they're not even close to the same playstyle.

Pichu is also different, in that the amount of options she has is more linear (really just tjolt), and very much more of a glass cannon, as you mentioned.

Wolf is also different, as he plays a more shoto-esque neutral with solid traits everywhere, but doesn't want to mash on your shield in the same way YL can.

Tomahawking is indeed a great option, but YL gets to press safe buttons on his opponents' shield instead of going for a grab, and it works okay for him.

Now, none of that says that YL is better than those characters (I personally have no idea rn). That said, he's not outclassed because he simply doesn't play the same way as any of them. He's probably the best at his very specific gameplan, and he doesn't really play like any other char. If you find Young Link to fit your playstyle, there's really nowhere else to go.
 

Spinosaurus

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have we overlooked PT basically having batwithin on command for disadvantage?
I don't think anyone overlooked that considering both Glutonny and MKLeo consistently punished Tweek for using it.

I remember people freaking about the move early on but like the biggest thing about it is that it completely stalls you in the air.
 

Yonder

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So what characters didnt get repped in top 100

Corrin
Ice climbers
King K Rool
Kirby
Little Mac
Lucas
Lucario
Mewtwo
Metaknight
Plant
Ridley
Samus/Dark Samus
Zelda
All the miis

I think the lack of mewtwo and Samus surprise me the most

Edit: Forgot the Pits
EVO didn't account for the patch. So hence, no Mewtwo or Pits. Then again, they have notoriously bad results rn, always worst in the game. I hope we see them more now.

Samus is an oddity though. The rest make sense/aren't very viable.
 
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