Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[epicnights]

And with the end of EVO comes the end of 3.1.0, and the beginning of the 4.0.0 era. Many characters have had changes, including lesser used ones like ,, , and /. I’d like to look specifically at /, since I happen to know the most about them relative to the other buffed characters.

Most of the /buffs are small, QoL buffs, such as D-smash 1 getting buffed so that it’s not failing to kill until the far upper hundred % ranges with good DI, and jab being made 1 frame faster, making it their fastest grounded option instead of tying with D-smash 1 at frame 5. These changes make them a bit better in those scramble situations, where before they lacked a good killing option and got stuffed by shield or simply faster options more often than they would like. D-air spike gaining more BKB on aerial opponents is nice as well, since it had less BKB and KBG than late d-air (0/80 and 5/90 for / and , respectively). Two buffs in particular, however, are much more influential: Up-tilt and B-air.

/ up-tilt was previously a *very* right set-up for nair, or up-air if your opponent wasn’t actually holding the controller. If they do happen to be playing, then they can jump out of even a frame perfect up-air, and even a frame off on execution can let all but the worst airdodges out scot-free. Now? 4.0.0 links into nair easily from 0 to 110%, and up-air will catch an air dodge; it has turned into an excellent combo tool that can be used to scoop up approaches by pivoting out of a run and adds another threat to their already large array of juggling options.

/ b-air was tweaked only slightly, losing 3 frames of landing lag, taking it from 11 to 8. This initially doesn’t seem like much, but it ended up having major consequences. In 4.0.0, landing sweetspot b-air is only -3 on shield, and sourspot b-air is -4 on shield. This gives them a strong option to pressure the opponent into taking a defensive option, though OoS options like Mario up-b and G&W Up-b can still slip out of this pressure. It also allows for a few new follow-up trees, such as sourspot b-air to grab at low to mid%, sourspot b-air to various aerials, and sourspot b-air to sweetspot b-air.

Will this push them further in tournaments? In theory, sure. A bait & punish style character with a good grab game like / *love* having a good shield pressure option, and more damage strings is always welcome. Unfortunately, the level of representation just isn’t there yet, so it’s unlikely we will see much actual evidence of the improvement. For now, we’ll have to wait and see.

 

[Slime Master]

Glad to see Joker win again, and that was the best Grand Finals for Ultimate thus far for me.

I just don’t like how after something like this, there is a fear of characters getting nerfed.

I don’t think punishing a player for doing well with a character is a good way to balance the game going forward.

Not a fan of this nerf happy culture we’ve got going on now.

Most of the fear-mongering over nerfs you see is completely irrational anyway, the only character that has gotten nerfed enough for it to really hurt is Pichu; most of the times nerfs are just enough to make the character a little more manageable, but still strong.

 

[Rizen]

They're not quite comparable.

Olimar, especially post-patch, is heavily bait and punish. You use side b to force your opponent to do something punishable or make them force their way in.

Young Link uses his projectiles not just to harass, but also to directly confirm into his various kill options/combos. He can do this all from a distance, something Oli wishes he could. Not to mention his incredible shield safety that lets him pressure shields up close. Honestly, they're not even close to the same playstyle.

Pichu is also different, in that the amount of options she has is more linear (really just tjolt), and very much more of a glass cannon, as you mentioned.

Wolf is also different, as he plays a more shoto-esque neutral with solid traits everywhere, but doesn't want to mash on your shield in the same way YL can.

Tomahawking is indeed a great option, but YL gets to press safe buttons on his opponents' shield instead of going for a grab, and it works okay for him.

Now, none of that says that YL is better than those characters (I personally have no idea rn). That said, he's not outclassed because he simply doesn't play the same way as any of them. He's probably the best at his very specific gameplan, and he doesn't really play like any other char. If you find Young Link to fit your playstyle, there's really nowhere else to go.

You don't have to be a carbon copy to be outclassed. With YL it's all about spacing. Back in Brawl Wolf played the most similar to Link instead of TL because they had the same SH pokes game. Oli and YL aren't that different except Oli has a more direct rout to doing what he wants to do.

YL can't confirm from projectiles from a distance; he has to be fairly close. Like with boomerang it must be close enough that it returns to YL while he's still in throwing lag or he'll catch it and ruin the combo. Bombs must be close enough to immediately buffer an aerial and arrows have no true combos but do put opponents in the air in disadvantage.
YL can't pressure shields up close; he'll lose to any good OoS game. His CQC game is very dangerous due to having poor reach and frame data. His only real pokes on shields are projectiles, Zair and Dair since that bounces.

YL does not have safe buttons on shields. If he hits a shield the best he can hope for is to dodge away and reset neutral. The best ground poke he has is Dtilt, -7 on Shield at closest. Several aerials are -2 or -3 on shield but then he has to land with 6f landing lag.

 

[|RK|]

You don't have to be a carbon copy to be outclassed. With YL it's all about spacing. Back in Brawl Wolf played the most similar to Link instead of TL because they had the same SH pokes game. Oli and YL aren't that different except Oli has a more direct rout to doing what he wants to do.

YL can't confirm from projectiles from a distance; he has to be fairly close. Like with boomerang it must be close enough that it returns to YL while he's still in throwing lag or he'll catch it and ruin the combo. Bombs must be close enough to immediately buffer an aerial and arrows have no true combos but do put opponents in the air in disadvantage.
YL can't pressure shields up close; he'll lose to any good OoS game. His CQC game is very dangerous due to having poor reach and frame data. His only real pokes on shields are projectiles, Zair and Dair since that bounces.

YL does not have safe buttons on shields. If he hits a shield the best he can hope for is to dodge away and reset neutral. The best ground poke he has is Dtilt, -7 on Shield. Several aerials are -2 or -3 on shield but then he has to land with 6f landing lag.

YL does not have to be very close. Double arrow is a good way to get things started from afar, not to mention he can have multiple projectiles out while trying to do his thing.

Also, if YL doesn't have safe buttons on shield, then literally no character does. Idk how you can look at the less safe Oli/Pichu/Wolf and make the comparison.

Finally, if you're defining archetypes that narrowly, then Joker is just a better ZSS because they both bait and punish.

There are MANY different styles, and I think calling YL similar to any of the three you mentioned is a disservice.

 

[Lacrimosa]

EVO didn't account for the patch. So hence, no Mewtwo or Pits. Then again, they have notoriously bad results rn, always worst in the game. I hope we see them more now.

Samus is an oddity though. The rest make sense/aren't very viable.

Not really.
Both quiK and Yb didn't attend. Both are without a doubt the best players of Samus/D. Samus.

 

[Thinkaman]

I think Tweek was really showing off PT well, but count the number of times he got punished out of Pokemon Change.

 

[Lacrimosa]

Not really character related but uhh....

Effective immediately, CaptainZack will be banned from competing at all 2GG events due to match fixing at Prime Saga and MomoCon 2019. Both events ran by us.

Match fixing is wrong and hurts the integrity and spirit of competition. Don’t do it.

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 5, 2019

 

[$.A.F.]

Not really character related but uhh....

Effective immediately, CaptainZack will be banned from competing at all 2GG events due to match fixing at Prime Saga and MomoCon 2019. Both events ran by us.

Match fixing is wrong and hurts the integrity and spirit of competition. Don’t do it.

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 5, 2019

That’s going to hurt Bayonetta’s results quite a bit especially if other tournaments follow through

 

[Nate1080]

I think Tweek was really showing off PT well, but count the number of times he got punished out of Pokemon Change.

And for not taking the stock when it was clear that he could take one.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Not really character related but uhh....

Effective immediately, CaptainZack will be banned from competing at all 2GG events due to match fixing at Prime Saga and MomoCon 2019. Both events ran by us.

Match fixing is wrong and hurts the integrity and spirit of competition. Don’t do it.

— 2GG (@2GGaming) August 5, 2019

CaptainZack sort of elaborated on this in a post before this declaration, as well as a Twitlonger.

please read this whole thing. no tl;dr

Read: https://t.co/7ek5wMZjnT

— CaptainZack (@CaptainZack_) August 2, 2019

I was informed that I will not be allowed to compete at this year's Smash Con. I completely agree with the decision and I will gladly take responsibility for my actions. I will still attend the event, but I'll simply be there as a spectator. Thank you for reading this.

— CaptainZack (@CaptainZack_) August 4, 2019

This whole Ally and CaptainZack thing is an udder-complete mess, and it has to happen to two very talented players that has been competing for years.

Let's hope something like this doesn't happen again.

 

[Rizen]

YL does not have to be very close. Double arrow is a good way to get things started from afar, not to mention he can have multiple projectiles out while trying to do his thing.

Also, if YL doesn't have safe buttons on shield, then literally no character does. Idk how you can look at the less safe Oli/Pichu/Wolf and make the comparison.

Finally, if you're defining archetypes that narrowly, then Joker is just a better ZSS because they both bait and punish.

There are MANY different styles, and I think calling YL similar to any of the three you mentioned is a disservice.

Double arrow isn't a combo; it's a read if the opponent does nothing.

YL doesn't have safe buttons on Shield. You can do the math: Fair1 is -3 on shield plus 6f landing lag, plus 6f until YL's fastest attack jab comes out= plenty of time for an OoS. If YL hits a shield the best thing he can do is dodge and reset neutral. If you play a halfway competent person they'll get you with OoS. Saying no other character is safe is ridiculous. Characters have disjoint, and there are characters with better frame advantage. Link for example has a huge disjointed sword, a luxury YL lacks, that can be spaced on shields. Other characters DO have safe pokes on shield because spacing.

It's not about archetypes it's about spacing and gameplan. You're trying to define outclassed as it has to be a carbon copy. Look it up:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/outclassed
"to surpass in excellence or quality, especially by a wide margin; be superior:"
Snake outclassed Link in Brawl. The characters I mentioned outclass YL in Ultimate.

Let me ask you this: how many of these characters do you play?

 

[|RK|]

Double arrow isn't a combo; it's a read if the opponent does nothing.

YL doesn't have safe buttons on Shield. You can do the math: Fair1 is -3 on shield plus 6f landing lag, plus 6f until YL's fastest attack jab comes out= plenty of time for an OoS. If YL hits a shield the best thing he can do is dodge and reset neutral. If you play a halfway competent person they'll get you with OoS. Saying no other character is safe is ridiculous. Characters have disjoint, and there are characters with better frame advantage. Link for example has a huge disjointed sword, a luxury YL lacks, that can be spaced on shields. Other characters DO have safe pokes on shield because spacing.

It's not about archetypes it's about spacing and gameplan. You're trying to define outclassed as it has to be a carbon copy. Look it up:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/outclassed
"to surpass in excellence or quality, especially by a wide margin; be superior:"
Snake outclassed Link in Brawl. The characters I mentioned outclass YL in Ultimate.

Let me ask you this: how many of these characters do you play?

I'm reasonably sure double arrow works at higher percents, but I could be wrong.

And YL absolutely has safe buttons on shield, what? YL has a small disjoint, and falls way too quickly for most chars to do anything when he lands with one of his aerials. If YL isn't safe on shield, what chars do you think are? Only sword chars?

Are you going to tell me that Joker's bair is unsafe on shield, too?

And I used to play Pichu and I have a Wolf secondary. Plus for copy ability stuff, I do practice using YL arrows.

Finally, why would you compare the gameplans of Olimar/Wolf/Pichu to Young Link, and their archetypes, then tell me that I'm the one who thinks "outclassed" means they have to be a carbon copy? You're trying to tell me "look it up" when you tried to compare those chars at every turn?

Let me repeat myself: Young Link does not want to play in a similar manner to any of the three characters you listed. Their gameplans/archetypes/however you want to do this are only the same if you use the broadest possible definition.

EDIT: I realize that your math also assumes that YL needs to press another button upon landing. Jump is frame 3. Shield is frame 1. Not to mention rolling, spotdodging...

AND MORE IMPORTANTLY

Shield safety of aerials takes the landing lag into account. The entire point of shield safety numbers is that the aerial is done on the last possible frame before landing. You don't add landing lag afterwards.

 

[Molk]

Double arrow isn't a combo; it's a read if the opponent does nothing.

YL doesn't have safe buttons on Shield. You can do the math: Fair1 is -3 on shield plus 6f landing lag, plus 6f until YL's fastest attack jab comes out= plenty of time for an OoS. If YL hits a shield the best thing he can do is dodge and reset neutral. If you play a halfway competent person they'll get you with OoS. Saying no other character is safe is ridiculous. Characters have disjoint, and there are characters with better frame advantage. Link for example has a huge disjointed sword, a luxury YL lacks, that can be spaced on shields. Other characters DO have safe pokes on shield because spacing.

It's not about archetypes it's about spacing and gameplan. You're trying to define outclassed as it has to be a carbon copy. Look it up:
https://www.dictionary.com/browse/outclassed
"to surpass in excellence or quality, especially by a wide margin; be superior:"
Snake outclassed Link in Brawl. The characters I mentioned outclass YL in Ultimate.

Let me ask you this: how many of these characters do you play?

Fair 1 is -3 on shield AFTER the landing lag is applied you absolute goober.

Young link's shield safety is fine compared to the rest of the cast honestly, i have absolutely no idea where you're getting this idea that he has absolutely nothing safe on block from. Although it's true that his mediocre startup on his grounded moves (nair is very fast but jumpsquat frames make it slower than jab) means he might have to use defensive options to avoid punishment against characters with good oos options instead of just being able to mash.

From the doc you linked itself:

The amount of endlag the attacker suffers compared to the defender. It's -(endlag minus shieldstun)
for grounded melee attacks. Add shieldlag for projectiles, and subsitute endlag for landing lag for aerials

There are a bunch of characters that would LOVE to have the luxury of having a single attack that's -3 on block, let alone several of them.

If you still don't believe me and want me to show you the math

young link's fair 1 has 6 frames of landing lag, and according to the doc you linked, it has 3 frames of shieldstun

For 3 frames of young link's 6 frames of landing lag, they'll be in shieldstun and unable to act

6-3=3

therefore, the opponent can act 3 frames before young link can, and the move is -3 on block.

 

[|RK|]

No namecalling Molk

But he's right about the shield safety. And I'm going to add that these numbers are all on OOS options.

If YL is spaced even slightly far away enough to avoid an OOS option, you have to drop shield. And if you take that into account, his attacks become straight up plus.

There are a few chars with the privilege to go for a frame 3 oos option. Most of them put themselves at immediate risk for doing so.

 

[Anomika]

Young Link has three (yes, three) aerials that have only 6 frames of landing lag, which barely any other fighter can keep up in terms of landing lag. His fair always surprises how safe it is, considering it has the slowest startup of his aerials. He can choose playing either defensively or aggressively with no trouble. Only problem is that he lacks range and his aerials with swords have notable startup, so landing the sword in general is not that easy but it does allow for spacing at least.

 

[Gleam]

I sure do hope they fix Side Special so that it actually hits with his head and not the massive invisible psychic wall he apparently conjures up. Seriously, might as well have a sword pop out of his skull that thing's so disjointed.

 

[Arthur97]

So you want to nerf Donkey Kong? But why though?

 

[Gleam]

So you want to nerf Donkey Kong? But why though?

Because it's bad game design, that's why. Bad game design and character with bad game design needs to be fixed regardless of how it effects them. Ganondorf had a nerf around 3.0 that made him easier to hit in the air and receive damage. Why? Probably because it gave Ganon an unfair position even though his overall design was bad to begin with.

Don't keep 'bad" designs just because they're benefiting the character. Fix bad designs and instead improve a character naturally.

 

[Arthur97]

Because it's bad game design, that's why. Bad game design and character with bad game design needs to be fixed regardless of how it effects them. Ganondorf had a nerf around 3.0 that made him easier to hit in the air and receive damage. Why? Probably because it gave Ganon an unfair position even though his overall design was bad to begin with.

Don't keep 'bad" designs just because they're benefiting the character. Fix bad designs and instead improve a character naturally.

But of all the things to grind your gears, something on a meh fighter is what you just absolutely want fixed?

 

[KakuCP9]

I sure do hope they fix Side Special so that it actually hits with his head and not the massive invisible psychic wall he apparently conjures up. Seriously, might as well have a sword pop out of his skull that thing's so disjointed.

That's because DK isn't hitting you with his head. He's hitting you with his expansive mind that conjures up 500 IQ plays made to carry other characters to their death bed.

 

[Gleam]

But of all the things to grind your gears, something on a meh fighter is what you just absolutely want fixed?

I want all bad game designs to be fixed, DK is just the example I decided to use.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I think the range of DK's headbutt is fine for its start-up (14 frames is quite a bit for a bury attack, especially compared to 's and 's bury attacks), but I am a stickler for having proper visuals to match attack hitboxes; for DK though, if it is a big issue, I would have his head protrude out more and have a longer reaching visual trail to better match its hitbox. Okay, that might look awkward, but hey, itcould work lol

Then again, I don't think anything can be as visual deceptive as 's NAir.

As for , having only 6 frames of landing lag on THREE attacks is absurd and a luxury that only he and share. Mario does probably profit more from it due to his higher air speed and his BAir being more oppressive than any of Young Link's aerials, but to be fair, there are few aerials out there that are as oppressive as Mario's BAir.

 

[Shaya]

People that think banning MK was the answer always amuse me.

Yes, he was a god.

But Brawl itself impeded competition. MK was the ICing (see what I did there) on the cake and not the only nonsense character. Not by a mile. It was his ease of use combined on top of high reward and being able to deal with virtually any situation with basic answers that made him so much stronger then the rest of the cast.

But banning him would not have "saved" the game. Brawl could not be saved. There was WAY too much going on. For heaven's sake, people were hacking their consoles just so they did not have to deal with tripping.

I did say MK AND ICs~

How to word this to the godfather of sorts (intended tone is jestful), but you know full well you had a weak mentality with Brawl and gave up and lost any/most interest about year or so after it's release - "MK has a bigger ****ing dtilt" was the end of you.

When Mikeneko came along and had actualised your early-meta theorycraft (which was the standard goal for all Brawl Marth players in perpetuity); and I happen to have met you briefly at a Phili tournament, you gave me the impression you did not care, and I wouldn't be surprised if you never bothered to watch or study his gameplay. And if you did look at it, I know you wouldn't have felt the inspiration or bewilderment it had on the rest of the Brawl gen.
I don't blame you, it was eventually ICs that gave me the same disregard and non-interest of Brawl that stopped me playing it permanently.

The issues of things like Dedede and Falco chaingrabs did just as much early on for killing people's enthusiasm for the game. I have large doubt any modern smash player would be willing to learn how to deal with a character in Ultimate with the toolset of Brawl Falco.

We were "masochists", and going by your persona of strong-will I'm sure you understand, but you weren't young/as bull-headed/it wasn't your first competitive smash game so you dipped.
I'd say a hyper majority of people doing well in Ultimate now are either the long-term Brawl carryovers (getting pretty smol in numbers now), or in a lot larger numbers obviously, people who withstood the "jank" and game-ruining impacts (at least from my perspective) of Smash4. Those same folks are complaining that Ultimate cares about neutral ("THINGS THAT AREN'T ON DLC ARE SAFE"), or that getting two-framed on your ledge snap actually gets you killed, or the worst frame data spot dodges in the series can be canceled with ATTACKS ONLY THATS SO STUPID, or exclaim zero suit or bayo aren't fun because they can't rage jank you as if these are game ruining or genuinely anti-competitive aspects.
The power of masochism by virtue of a 'first competitive smash game' is immense~

But you do bring up a great point on hacking - this was something that made enduring the game a lot more palatable. There was a long period of time where tripping off hacks were standard at locals if not at larger tournaments (you can probably tell by any 'major' tournament whether or not if you didn't see a single trip all set), it was a gentlemen's rule that we all relegated as "okay". This sounds insane now, but hacking the Wii was incredibly simple and music hacks carried people's enjoyment heaps.
But tripping, as silly as it was, is just a small RNG quirk that throughout my time had only ever personally cost me one game in one crucial set, ONCE (tripping out of a grab release tipper fsmash on wario that got me wafted for a stock at a solid lead,of course the tilt that put me in was entirely my fault though). Hero's impacts through RNG is near undoubtedly a lot more significant and yet, at this time, I think it's feasible to live with it (but we'll see).
Mentality wise, there's no way one poor RNG roll could be all to blame for a set loss, and it made walking a lot more considered option. It was you, after all, who cheered the use of walking.

Anyway, you're not wrong that Brawl didn't really have a means of surviving (just as much as S4 didn't/doesn't either). But most of everything else that was going on was normalised to the player base.

 

[Arthur97]

I think the range of DK's headbutt is fine for its start-up (14 frames is quite a bit for a bury attack, especially compared to 's and 's bury attacks), but I am a stickler for having proper visuals to match attack hitboxes; for DK though, if it is a big issue, I would have his head protrude out more and have a longer reaching visual trail to better match its hitbox. Okay, that might look awkward, but hey, itcould work lol

Then again, I don't think anything can be as visual deceptive as 's NAir.

As for , having only 6 frames of landing lag on THREE attacks is absurd and a luxury that only he and share. Mario does probably profit more from it due to his higher air speed and his BAir being more oppressive than any of Young Link's aerials, but to be fair, there are few aerials out there that are as oppressive as Mario's BAir.

Wouldn't be the first time Smash had things change size during an attack. I think Meta Knight's sword actually shrunk in his down tilt at some point in 4.

 

[Rocketjay8]

Wouldn't be the first time Smash had things change size during an attack. I think Meta Knight's sword actually shrunk in his down tilt at some point in 4.

Didn't MK players complained that his sword was a toothpick?

 

[The_Bookworm]

Didn't MK players complained that his sword was a toothpick?

For the most part yeah, especially before latter combos was discovered for him in SSB4. His disjoint was shrunken from Brawl, and even some moves hitboxes didn't match the animation (which meant that it was even shorter than it seems). He ended up going from having one of the biggest disjointed ranges in Brawl (alongside Marth and Ike) to one of the worst disjointed ranges. The fact that his frame data was significantly toned down from Brawl didn't help either.

In Ultimate, they fixed some of his hitboxes inconsistencies and improved his frame data in some areas, but his disjointed range (and range in general) still remains below average in comparison to the rest of the cast. He is still licking his wounds he got from his nerfs from Brawl to SSB4. I think if Brawl MK was ported directly into Ultimate, his range would probably be above average at best, due to the increased ranges of the rest of the cast since then (including Marth).

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Yeah MK's range and neutral were thrashed in 4 ..but then it was discovered he could do ZSS style death ladder combos that could be confired from things like his DA..still making ik a top-level threat...so he was nerfed AGAIN in another balance patch. Then he was mostly regulated to a Roaslina CP..

You want to talk about toothpick swords in Smash 4 . That was pre-patched Marcina..

 

[KakuCP9]

Room temperature take: A lot of people either on this site or on social media seem to be under the impression of Joker getting hit with a ton of nerfs after Leo's win at EVO and while I think he could stand to have some adjustments, I don't think he's going to hit that hard, if at all considering the frequency of Joker's usage. I'm sure this is well known, but it bear repeating when compared to Samurai shodown whose top 8 is made up of more than half of Genjuro players. Granted SamSho is even newer than Ultimate, but he is a character without any notable weakness outside of average range and has every tool you could ever want in a character. So unless every nerd picks up Joker and starts winning a bunch of stuff or some strat without any reasonable counter-play, Joker isn't going to get hammered with nerfs (hell, characters like Wolf and Ivy who are prolific and powerful only got little more than a slap on the wrist). Then again, they nerfed Mii Brawler by 'fixing' their fall speed, killing auto-cancel fair so who knows what they will do? *shrug*
PS: I love Samsho and I don't think Genjiro is damning problem, though he is hella obnoxious.

 

[Rizen]

I sure do hope they fix Side Special so that it actually hits with his head and not the massive invisible psychic wall he apparently conjures up. Seriously, might as well have a sword pop out of his skull that thing's so disjointed.

I've been grounded by the hair on his head and have to agree with this.

As for , having only 6 frames of landing lag on THREE attacks is absurd and a luxury that only he and share. Mario does probably profit more from it due to his higher air speed and his BAir being more oppressive than any of Young Link's aerials, but to be fair, there are few aerials out there that are as oppressive as Mario's BAir.

This is why YL can combo aerials into smashes or his BnB Fair1>Dtilt>Nair/upB.

 

[Thinkaman]

Still feeling unimpressed by Hero.

In addition to making his crit rate appear to be 100%, twitter clips also have a tendency to make his neutral and combo game look a lot more cohesive than it is. Fair and bair are not bad moves but I wouldn't call them good. Utilt is great at what it does but isn't going to control the match. When I land a typical hit/grab in the neutral as Hero, I feel like I have the lowest % chance of getting a second hit of any character in the game--even less than heavies who get far more enticing reward.

His poor grab range and lackluster OoS options constantly leave me sad. No, Woosh is not a great OoS option--for something that is going to put me in the air in special fall I am going to want way more reward and/or range. Dragon punch, this ain't.

Hero intensely dislikes too many things. He hates rushdown, he hates projectiles, he hates reflectors, he hates shields, he hates counters, he hates being off-stage.

But it's not all bad--I can't overstate how great all 3 of his main specials are. It's probably automatic that a character with these moves can't be terrible. He is perfectly capable of forcing approaches, and is downright cruel to people off-stage. Bounce is at once overrated and still very very good. Accel is stellar, Heal is a nice bonus, and his oddball projectiles and offensive buffs help offer levers of control that he otherwise yearns for.

MP really matters, certainly to a degree that Robin never felt. Casual harassment really isn't a sustainable option, and getting a Zapple blocked should make you sad. Overplaying your MP hand means losing access to a lot of key tools, including your off-stage kings and Magic Burst ace. At least MP regen still kinda sorta forces an approach.

Hero is probably significantly better at lower levels of play, where Hero's neutral holes will be less abused and more vulnerable ground play (bad rolls, ect) will give him more windows to do stuff.

Edit: And while neutral B is (again) really good, only being able to store a full charge really matters. Almost no characters can prevent Samus/Lucario/Mewtwo/DK/ect. from (eventually) charging from a safe range with no risk of a read punish. Tons of people can prevent/threaten Hero from charging. And as a charge mixup, Frizzle has inferior frames to say Elthunder or partial Charge Shot and is thus significantly more reactable. (Though the damage is good at 18)

 

[Spinosaurus]

Just for reference you can store a half Frizz charge, you just have to charge the whole way up for the full charge. If you let go right away you'll get the half-charged projectile.

 

[Thinkaman]

Just for reference you can store a half Frizz charge, you just have to charge the whole way up for the full charge. If you let go right away you'll get the half-charged projectile.

Oh interesting, I had completely missed this behavior. Still, bottom line is that full neutral-b charge is uniquely non-trivial for Hero to get.

Also: I think (leaving out Wario) Hero has the worst f-smash in the game, the worst u-smash in the game, and the worst d-smash in the game. changemymind.jpg

 

[|RK|]

Oh interesting, I had completely missed this behavior. Still, bottom line is that full neutral-b charge is uniquely non-trivial for Hero to get.

Also: I think Hero has the worst f-smash in the game, the worst u-smash in the game, and the worst d-smash in the game. changemymind.jpg

Definitely not dsmash. Dsmash is way too fast and way too strong to be bad at all.

Not to mention chances of crits and various boosts. But speaking only of dsmash, parry into dsmash is a very legitimate kill option that may just make the opponent explode.

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Also: I think Hero has the worst f-smash in the game, the worst u-smash in the game, and the worst d-smash in the game. changemymind.jpg

Is this a joke?
Because it's not funny.

 

[Thinkaman]

Definitely not dsmash. Dsmash is way too fast and way too strong to be bad at all.

I am probably being too harsh on d-smash--it is a potential kill option on a usable frame, and covers rolls better than many bad d-smashes.

But it's still a 55 frame move with lackluster reward 7/8 times. I'd definitely trade it for like, 90% of the down-smashes in the game, as well as plenty of frame 9/10 kill moves like Ganon f-tilt that are far less unsafe.

F-smash and u-smash are horrid. At least f-smash has some range and good damage, and at least u-smash can hit platforms, albeit barely. There's also limited potential into them from dair, but uh good luck if that's actually your gameplan.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

His down smash is pretty solid compared to his other smashes it’s quick on the front and deals solid damage and knockback not crit.

His other smashes are pretty bad though yes. Unless he lands a lucky crit they really lack for how bad the hitbox is (up smash) or how ridiculously unsafe it is (Fsmash). Up smash loses use once it stops confirming off dair (granted dair -> crit up smash is hyper strong but non crit isn’t anything super special). It’s hitbox is just too poor to be used for an anti air unless your directly under your opponent. Laggy and rather slow. Has no use against grounded opponents which wouldn’t be bad but then you have his Fsmash. Strong yes, critical hit kills stupid early and snooze -> Fsmash is very real even without a critical but that’s about it. It’s entirely too slow to hit anyone who isn’t being careless and good luck if it gets blocked, despite it having high shield push back it’s so unsafe you can drop shield and run up and still get a strong punish, move has to be like -40 or higher on block(probably exaggerating but it’s bad). Only time your landing this move is off a call out, lock or Snooze.

Also a note on his fully charged Neutral B if he doesn’t have enough MP to cast it he is locked out of using any variant of his Neutral B until he can cast it. This can be problematic if he’s caught low on MP after fully charging his Neutral B and takes a big part of his neutral game off the table temporarily.

 

[Deathcarter]

Oh interesting, I had completely missed this behavior. Still, bottom line is that full neutral-b charge is uniquely non-trivial for Hero to get.

Also: I think (leaving out Wario) Hero has the worst f-smash in the game, the worst u-smash in the game, and the worst d-smash in the game. changemymind.jpg

You've never actually seen Ike's D-Smash, Palutena's F-Smash, and Corrin's U-Smash have you?

 

[KakuCP9]

Also: I think (leaving out Wario) Hero has the worst f-smash in the game, the worst u-smash in the game, and the worst d-smash in the game. changemymind.jpg

When you put it like that, it almost makes the RNG crits necessary for his smashes to be worth using (almost).Also I think you're underselling whoosh as an OOS option since while it lacks reward, the fact that it lingers and comes out fast grants a generous opportunity to kill your opponent pressure when they're rushing at you and it covers cross-up as well (plus I think with b-turnaround, you can influence the direction the opponent gets sent since it's based on what direction Hero is facing).

 

[MrGameguycolor]

You've never actually seen Ike's D-Smash, Palutena's F-Smash, and Corrin's U-Smash have you?

You can add & to F-Smash, to D-Smash & alone to Up-Smash.

I do agree that 's Up-Smash crit-less is pretty bleh.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I actually think 's F-Smash is pretty okay now; the move connects properly now, only has 20 frames of cool down, it's one of Shiek's few attacks that actually kills, and it's a solid kill confirm off of FF UAir.

I would say if it wasn't for the Crit-RNG, 's FSmash would probably be the worst in the game. It's start-up isn't too bad for its knockback, but the move has nearly 50 frames of endlag while also lacking the oppressive range of FSmashes like and .