Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nate1080]

If you like gambling you could drop down and use down-B and hope for a Zoom (you could even do it twice if you're willing to die if you don't get it), might be worth it against strong ledgetrappers.

Apparently you're more likely to get Metal Slash if an opponent is metal. I wonder if anything else is affected like this?

Confirmed Metal Slash has 4x odds multiplier when there is a metal opponents.

メタル化・アストロン中の敵がいるとメタル斬りの抽選確率が4倍になる。 https://t.co/iUQcQxural

— Meshima (@Meshima_) August 6, 2019

I’ve had Metal opponents 3 times so far. Only 1 of those times I got metal slash in time. The other two: I got it too late and I never got it at all.

Maybe I don’t have the heart of the cards

 

[Rizen]

I feel like I should clarify some things for the sake of best understanding I've been labbing YL and playing him in live tournaments since SSBU came out.

Several aerials are -2 or -3 on shield but then he has to land with 6f landing lag.

I was wrong about this. However...

YL can't confirm from projectiles from a distance; he has to be fairly close. Like with boomerang it must be close enough that it returns to YL while he's still in throwing lag or he'll catch it and ruin the combo. Bombs must be close enough to immediately buffer an aerial and arrows have no true combos but do put opponents in the air in disadvantage.
YL can't pressure shields up close; he'll lose to any good OoS game. His CQC game is very dangerous due to having poor reach and frame data. His only real pokes on shields are projectiles, Zair and Dair since that bounces.

YL does not have safe buttons on shields. If he hits a shield the best he can hope for is to dodge away and reset neutral. The best ground poke he has is Dtilt, -7 on Shield at closest.

This is all true.

YL's combos are all tight so he needs to be close to execute them. Fire arrows do not true combo into themselves or anything but they are good for putting the opponent in the air. It's best to zone at midrange just outside the opponent's reach so you can follow up boomerangs with Fair.

The hardest opponents I've played have stayed grounded and shielded while closing the gap. YL can't pressure shields with buttons because his buttons are slow and punishable and his sword is dinky. If you land and try to press buttons on shield you'll get punished. I've had that happen a lot. The best you can do is buffer a dodge away.
If YL had better buttons like Ryu with a f3 FAF 14 Utilt or a big whip like Belmont things would be different. But he loses to most opponents up close. Rushdowns have better frame data and swords have slightly better frame data and reach. CQC is the most dangerous part of the game for YL. Pressuring shields isn't just about the attack you hit the shield with but what you do afterwards. YL can't go for grabs because his tether is f12. His jab is f6. If you hit a shield you're put in a disadvantageous situation. Not only does YL have poor CQC but he's -3 just from the shield. If he doesn't dodge the best he can do is go for a f9 total jab and hope the opponent's OoS isn't faster than that. YL does not like being near opponents.

Shielding is an effective strategy vs YL for a few reasons. First, his projectiles are so versatile that if you try to jump at him you'll eat an upwards angled boomerang. Unlike many projectile users YL can throw out one after another with little lag. As mentioned he loses to shields because he doesn't have safe buttons after hitting a shield. YL's grab is not only slow to start but also a big commitment so it's dangerous for YL to use it; although conditioning opponents to shield and going for grabs can be an effective strategy. Finally, YL does not have good shield breaking potential. His smashes are all very laggy, projectiles do little shield damage and YL generally lacks shield break setups. Smart players have little to fear.

YL also has a monster neutral from midrange. It's in his best interest to reset neutral rather than risk getting beat in CQC. So don't be afraid to shield in the YL MU, as long as you're not too obvious with it, it's a great way to approach him.

 

[blackghost]

Pichu might be an example of when community outrage leads to overnerfs that make the character not worth playing.

replace "pichu" with Bayonetta or Sonic and this statement is 100 percent true. pichu is still good sonic and bayo don't work.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

replace "pichu" with Bayonetta or Sonic and this statement is 100 percent true. pichu is still good sonic and bayo don't work.

All Sonic really needs is to have his up-air actulally connected properly and he will be perfectly fine.. I would say the same Sheik was a victim of thid as well as well well she got some buffs that made her better I guess...to bad none of those buffs was getting Arsene.

 

[Shaya]

I do not know what you think of me. As a player or as a man. But I am ever the same EL.

I must apologize profusely if you feel I was truly attacking your character here (the idea was juxtaposing your mostly powerful framing of points over the years in a facetious way). If not obvious from just that post, you have my utmost admiration, and even if muddled there by teasing, also immense respect. Players here (and elsewhere) have no idea of your legacy. But I'm still here to remember, at least.
My intent was to put more perspective behind your contrary view of the situation (there is no single "truth"), how you felt about things would not be the same as those who continued to enjoy the game for 5x or more length of time.

Despite enjoying playing and learning to overcome a character like Bayo & Cloud in S4 (I still have a bit of that masochism in me), I became weak-willed towards it competitively because of them, partially fueled by knowing how far at least the former could go at the highest level and people being absurdly blind to that (+ I had no access to it, unlike how I was able to personally train with M2K and Tyrant in the brawl days).
Bayo was only limited by the player's ability to pick the right option one after the other to essentially almost always kill you from a simple win in neutral, such a powerful and mental dynamic was an area of skill not enticed by S4 whatsoever, people only saw things for the "guaranteed" (i.e. a presumption that all people's concepts of options was that of a chicken). Bayo was a beautifully designed and a contemporaneously-unique limitless character in a game not good enough to handle her.

(I'm musing/ranting all over the place, I know).

Intelligent theory-crafters were already a dying breed back in the brawl days and today are almost non-existent, those that are capable do not garner the respect of communities unless they're just labbing %s that things combo or crap like that (i.e. niche bull**** that almost entirely driven by people wanting clout for twitter clips). Match up discussions come down to binary facets rather than mitigation or "finding the correct path" and that's still the case now (tis why I generally maintained that ZSS didn't really lose to small characters in S4 or now, just the bar of execution and precision is set higher). But try getting that point across to people, at least in the S4 era, was mostly a fool's errand. I think I blame the game more so than the players.

I really hope that Ultimate is the game that re-establishes Smash as one that emphasises highly intelligent, well thought out and applied neutral and advantage states, and I do think this game has the chance of that. It's a shame that we're past the point of being able to keep-up at top [or even highish] level in terms of reaction, quick thinking and most importantly daylong (or weekend long) stamina for events (well, I'd guess this notion doesn't still weigh upon you like it does for me, probably because health issues cut my time short).

But either way, without your foundations, I can't comprehend how my journey would've brought me to the understanding that I mustered otherwise. You fostered a community of try-hards (a specific type, mental/visualization rather than "the grind") in size that likely doesn't even exist independently today. I get the impression you've been disappointed in your attempts to try to do the same for Ryu's player base in S4, but I'm sure you have striven to do so nevertheless.
All we can do is pray that the current trajectory of Ultimate stays on course to keep the current generation's minds more open.

The player and man is one in the same (this doesn't apply to everyone), we all have weaknesses but we strive to learn and understand them not just for ourselves but for others.

 

[KirbySquad101]

I can't agree with the idea of not working or being not worth it, especially considering that KEN won a Category B tournament not too long ago with him. Also Sonido's got a killer Sonic.

Some of Sonic's stuff doesn't connect properly, but as long as he has his massive speed (or his looney tunes punch for that matter), I can't really see him not working.

 

[Frihetsanka]

replace "pichu" with Bayonetta or Sonic and this statement is 100 percent true. pichu is still good sonic and bayo don't work.

Smash 4 Bayonetta was too strong and deserved to be nerfed, they overdid it, sure, but she deserved to get some nerfs. Meanwhile Pichu probably wasn't top 3 before the nerfs. Not the same.

 

[blackghost]

Smash 4 Bayonetta was too strong and deserved to be nerfed, they overdid it, sure, but she deserved to get some nerfs. Meanwhile Pichu probably wasn't top 3 before the nerfs. Not the same.

i dont want to launch into a full rant but as far as i know, bayo is the only character where every single move was nerfed/gutted in transition form 4 to ultimate. they even made her lighter. no character survives something like that.
its things like not only does witch twist come out slower but it doesnt hit behind her on startup. there's a laundry list of things they did. pichu changes were minor in comparison.

pichu may or may not have been a top 3 ultimates top is so cluttered no one can make a definitive statement of an ordered list.

anyhow has anyone seen any videos or notable matches with hero? any top players considering maining or co-maining him?

 

[san.]

After getting some more time with Hero and watching Evo to compare current highest levels of play, I think that Hero will settle around high tier in tournaments. I still feel that he has top tier potential, but the amount of optimizations you need to make to realize all of that are pretty absurd.

What he does have that is easy to quantify:

-Level 1 and 2 frizz spells remain usable against those who attempt rushdown. You may store level 2 frizz quickly.
-Level 3 frizz charges very quickly compared to other similar moves, and releases on frame 16. That is very nice.
-All 3 levels of zap are great. Level 1 has good range and is safe. Level 2 deals a lot of damage and is safe at mid-range. Level 3 deals extreme damage with super armor and covers the main weakness of approaching a whiffed level 2. Many, many applications.

-Hero's movement speed is underrated. His ground speed is quite decent at around Wii Fit tier. His air speed, while sluggish, is usable enough to move around some. Hero will want to rely on grounded movement with the occasional aerial and fade-back zap/zapple.

-Aerials are usable at base. I thought bair was awful, but I learned that it does demand some respect since it sweeps from below to well above the character. I think this way since although I still believe bair is a weak link, it can be replaced with zap when necessary. Frame 8 nair can replace uair for diagonal angles. Uair is.. ok against opponents directly above him, though admittedly non-threatening (bair is the threatening move above him). Dair, while having bad landing lag, has a sourspot and decent autocancel frames.

-Oomph is really easy to get, which supplements all of his physical attacks including zap. This is when many of Hero's attacks begin to get some safety.

-He has situational kill confirms from landing uair, landing dair, acceleratle, etc, but I feel that he has a plethora of options to cover tech chase scenarios. This also applies to ledge traps (kazap) and edgeguards (zapple, acceleratle, oomph, swoosh/kashwoosh, attack spells).

-Dtilt, ftilt1 (not 2), utilt are all solid. Usmash is good for gaining mana against those on platforms.


With that said, there are a lot of things that Hero will need to learn how to get around:

-Disadvantage is rough. While dair has a sourpspot, diagonally below him is awful to cover compared to even Ike, who can fall back on larger aerials with less landing lag. However, I think Hero will still be able to use woosh as an occasional second double jump, and swoosh since the tornado descends for a time. Hero will then need to drift towards the nearest platform or offstage. Not the best, but I think it will at least prevent some extended juggles.

-Same with disadvantage, recovering will take a while to optimize. We just learned how zoom %s work offstage. With that, Hero can cover himself with frizz spells, zap spells, recover high with a quick woosh, and more horizontally with swoosh. If he is in a dangerous spot below the ledge, he can at least adjust the timing of his upB to avoid getting spiked. Woosh is frame 7 and swoosh is around frame 19 after 13 frames of charge and covers more of his body.

-I have been reading that people think woosh is a bad out of shield option. I'm not sure I agree just yet. Not many quick out of shield options are combo starters anyways. Woosh hits on frame 7 with more range than his jab on both sides, dealing around 8 damage. With the ability to maneuver in the air, I consider that respectable. Most safe aerials are around -3 to -6, so any high or ~11-12 landing lag aerial will be consistently punished. The utility is that is covers both sides.

-Fighting around shield. Shield covers nearly all spells when used, though the key is to remain safe when using them. Zap specifically will be one of the best tools against shield due to its safety vs. range ratio, otherwise I feel that Hero needs a buff to really begin to threaten shields heavily. Just spells aren't enough.

-Fighting around projectiles. This is one of the situations when Hero needs to use the first two levels of frizz more often, and try to space near the max of zapple range. Other than bounce, hero can either stand still/walk or choose to trade projectiles with his own if he is fast enough since his are stronger.

General optimizations include:

-Learning how to use the default shield when standing still and walking. It appears to have a bigger blocking radius than Link's.
-Learning how to use the shield on ftilt 1
-Tech chase, ledge trap, and edgeguard optimizations.
-Learning how to use his normals with and without buffs

-Optimizing spell usage. Yep, it's all the way down here. The best spells appear to be
Magic Burst
Oomph/buffs
Kaboom
Snooze
Whack/Thwack
Sizzle (barely)

-Spells to Avoid
Hocus Pocus
Kaclang
Kamikaze (until high %)
Metal Slash
Hatchet Man (needs to be chosen on purpose/situational)

Fishing for buffs is fairly easy and practical. I think it will take time before Hero players develop their "quick-spell" usage. Since spells do not appear twice in a row, they will get better at optimizing quick-spells at mid-range as long as they avoid Kaclang, Metal Slash, and Kamikaze (low %). Even though they may be punished using buff spells, they apply immediately and are typically worth the payoff.

In addition to this, the most important spells outside of kaboom tend to start with different letters. This will let players snipe spells faster and smarter as the meta progresses.

Nearly all non-slash attack spells have poor vertical coverage. Hero players will need to optimize slash spell usage against opponents coming from above, use spells in the air, or optimize the jump and shield options out of downB.


I think it'll take some time before the best strategies are normalized. Until then, I think he will settle in generic high tier territory(which is absolutely huge in this game) at this rate without a decent amount of high level players switching to him. There is too much of a reliance on buffs to make his normals feel good competitively, where I think he will be forced to play to win in tournament, compared to other top tier characters. A lot of work is necessary for sure.

 

[Nathan Richardson]

Remember when people in S4 were saying that Marth was better than Lucina because of his tippers and the reward he could get off of them? I remember arguing that consistently was better than a random tipper chance. What happened during the transition?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Remember when people in S4 were saying that Marth was better than Lucina because of his tippers and the reward he could get off of them? I remember arguing that consistently was better than a random tipper chance. What happened during the transition?

Marth had some fairly consistent setup he could use, such as jab to f-tilt, and he lost them in the transition to Ultimate. This hurt him more than it hurt Lucina. Also, the general increase in speed made landing tippers harder than in 4.

 

[Arthur97]

Seems a little ludicrous that some of the spells are more likely in certain situations. RNG is the main thing holding them back from being broken, but being able to just pop onto stage is a bit ludicrous. Maybe if it left them more open or it was more predictable as to where they'd land, but like this, it's kind of unfair.

 

[Rizen]

The zoom probability improves Hero by a good deal. It's not about recovering from a distance so much as the mixup potential. Hero already had a good recovery with woosh but now he has a 1 in 2 chance to get stage control if you try to intercept him. If he doesn't get zoom, big deal he can jump out of menu and use his long range woosh to make it back.

 

[Nebunera]

Okay I have a hot take for my new secondary, going to copy and paste a case I made.

Easily top 10, so tired of him being underrated as some regular high tier, he is actually godlike. Not only that but he is the best of the three links.

He hits super hard. One of the best smash attacks overall, I mean not only is his forward smash two hits, it also is a projectile (when you are at 0%), so you can literally use it to space. Forward tilt is also incredible, and dash attack is an amazing move to punish.

Projectiles are insane too. Arrows do good damage and you can literally pick them up and zone with it again. Down-B tech is insane, you can control the stage with this one move, and it is amazing for edge-guarding with the radius it has. The boomerang does a good amount of damage and is good to use on the other side of the stage, and you can even use it as an out of shield option if up close because you can literally follow up with it. All these projectiles give Link amazing spacing and amazing edge-guarding.

Speaking of out of shield options...just...Up-B out of shield, there is not much else to say.

Aerials are crazy good because they are either fast kicks or hard hitting sword attacks. Not only that but you can cancel aerials into other strong attacks too. Grabs are not that bad either, especially down throw for follow ups. The only glaring weakness with this character is the high lag on certain attacks, but he makes up for it with strong damage and knockback. He isn't even that slow, he is the same speed as Wolf and we don't call Wolf slow; also not everyone needs to be a speedy rushdown.

So to conclude, Link is incredible, the second best zoner after Snake, so I really think he is top 10 (specifically #6 to #8). He really can compete with other top tiers.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I checked on twitter for any other move that changes in probability if it appears or not depending on the situation.

Looks like Zoom and Metal Slash are indeed the only two spells that does do that. This factor to Metal Slash is completely irrelevant in competitive play (outside of the ditto), while the factor to Zoom does help out when he is in a pinch (although I do personally think that Zoom is an overrated move).

 

[Thinkaman]

This factor to Metal Slash is completely irrelevant in competitive play (outside of the ditto)

It's... pretty irrelevant in the ditto too.

All this zoom stuff is pretty nice and does help his recovery some of the time, but I think the value is being overstated.

Hero's real future depends on how much juice people can squeeze out of fair/bair/utilt and his (non-menu) specials.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I feel like I should clarify some things for the sake of best understanding I've been labbing YL and playing him in live tournaments since SSBU came out.

I was wrong about this. However...

This is all true.

YL's combos are all tight so he needs to be close to execute them. Fire arrows do not true combo into themselves or anything but they are good for putting the opponent in the air. It's best to zone at midrange just outside the opponent's reach so you can follow up boomerangs with Fair.

The hardest opponents I've played have stayed grounded and shielded while closing the gap. YL can't pressure shields with buttons because his buttons are slow and punishable and his sword is dinky. If you land and try to press buttons on shield you'll get punished. I've had that happen a lot. The best you can do is buffer a dodge away.
If YL had better buttons like Ryu with a f3 FAF 14 Utilt or a big whip like Belmont things would be different. But he loses to most opponents up close. Rushdowns have better frame data and swords have slightly better frame data and reach. CQC is the most dangerous part of the game for YL. Pressuring shields isn't just about the attack you hit the shield with but what you do afterwards. YL can't go for grabs because his tether is f12. His jab is f6. If you hit a shield you're put in a disadvantageous situation. Not only does YL have poor CQC but he's -3 just from the shield. If he doesn't dodge the best he can do is go for a f9 total jab and hope the opponent's OoS isn't faster than that. YL does not like being near opponents.

Shielding is an effective strategy vs YL for a few reasons. First, his projectiles are so versatile that if you try to jump at him you'll eat an upwards angled boomerang. Unlike many projectile users YL can throw out one after another with little lag. As mentioned he loses to shields because he doesn't have safe buttons after hitting a shield. YL's grab is not only slow to start but also a big commitment so it's dangerous for YL to use it; although conditioning opponents to shield and going for grabs can be an effective strategy. Finally, YL does not have good shield breaking potential. His smashes are all very laggy, projectiles do little shield damage and YL generally lacks shield break setups. Smart players have little to fear.

YL also has a monster neutral from midrange. It's in his best interest to reset neutral rather than risk getting beat in CQC. So don't be afraid to shield in the YL MU, as long as you're not too obvious with it, it's a great way to approach him.

Are you sure they don't true combo? Because I've definitely gotten combos off of them before.

Edit: yeah this is 100% false. Not really sure what you're talking about but you may want to hit the lab some more and actually lab out your combos. Your placements and how long you've been playing him are irrelevant.

Edit 2: Often times you're getting punished as young ylink because you're committed to an action that causes you to get punished. Or you've misplaced your move and considering your inability to combo off of fire arrow I believe its the latter. Nair -2 fair -3 bair -3. The amount of characters with a 3 frame window is very limited. But I'll continue to listen to your rant actually I won't.

 

[Thinkaman]

I've looked into Zoom recovery more--it's more viable than I thought. Not perfect, has clear downsides, but it's workable. The odds are there, sort of: You can get zoom about 80% of the time within 2 tries (3 tries is certainly possible with double jump, but demands an optimal situation), and it does give you back your double jump so you aren't totally helpless on the way down.

Bonus style points for going ham offstage with Accelerattle and Zooming back.

 

[Tri Knight]

Okay I have a hot take for my new secondary, going to copy and paste a case I made.

Easily top 10, so tired of him being underrated as some regular high tier, he is actually godlike. Not only that but he is the best of the three links.

He hits super hard. One of the best smash attacks overall, I mean not only is his forward smash two hits, it also is a projectile (when you are at 0%), so you can literally use it to space. Forward tilt is also incredible, and dash attack is an amazing move to punish.

Projectiles are insane too. Arrows do good damage and you can literally pick them up and zone with it again. Down-B tech is insane, you can control the stage with this one move, and it is amazing for edge-guarding with the radius it has. The boomerang does a good amount of damage and is good to use on the other side of the stage, and you can even use it as an out of shield option if up close because you can literally follow up with it. All these projectiles give Link amazing spacing and amazing edge-guarding.

Speaking of out of shield options...just...Up-B out of shield, there is not much else to say.

Aerials are crazy good because they are either fast kicks or hard hitting sword attacks. Not only that but you can cancel aerials into other strong attacks too. Grabs are not that bad either, especially down throw for follow ups. The only glaring weakness with this character is the high lag on certain attacks, but he makes up for it with strong damage and knockback. He isn't even that slow, he is the same speed as Wolf and we don't call Wolf slow; also not everyone needs to be a speedy rushdown.

So to conclude, Link is incredible, the second best zoner after Snake, so I really think he is top 10 (specifically #6 to #8). He really can compete with other top tiers.

As a Link main I heavily disagree he's top 10.

Yes, he's heavy and has got a plethora of KO moves (which is why I like him most out of the 3), but that comes at a price. His attacks are sluggish. He's open to getting rushed down by the speedy characters like he's always had issues with. His frame data is pretty subpar (although I do think up-b is a fantastic oos move but can be risky).

Picking the arrows up again to use them, the blade beam at 0%, it's all very flavorful but it's just flat out gimmicky and not reliable in general play. Unless your opponent is vastly inferior to you or you get an amazing read, there's no way that someone as slow as Link is gonna be able to take advantage of being at 0% to use his sluggish smash attack. In fact, most of the time if I'm zoning or keeping space, I'm spamming boomerang because it's far more versatile.

His bombs (down-b) and his overall edgeguarding ability is something I definitely agree with you on. He's got some of the best edgeguarding tools in the game. Bombs for securing kills and forcing reactions, N-air for gimping, D-air for meteor/low recovery, B-air for stage spikes. Even F-air has it's niche as a good spacer to secure a mid level recovery. So yes, I also agree that his aerials are fantastic as well. I've always found N-air to be pretty godly actually. His neutral game is actually pretty good.

But you're comparing Link to Wolf who has vastly superior frame data to Link regardless of running speed. Wolf's jab alone is TWICE as fast as Link's. You can argue that Link has long range on his sword which is true but the glaring problem remains: Link is very weak to rushdown. If they get in, Link doesn't have much to push them out which means he's getting hit, grabbed, or a combination of both. And I may be mistaken but there are a couple of characters in top 10 that can rush him down...

If Link had better frame data; a frame 6 jab, speedy end lag on his heavier ground attacks, etc., then I could totally consider him top 15, even top 10 potential. I still think he's really good, especially compared to what he was in the past. T is a great example of how good Link can be. But idk about that top 10 in his current state. Speedy attacks and movement go a long way in a fighting game that has always overemphasized freedom of movement. Which is why top tier consists of characters that can do that stuff fairly well.

 

[bc1910]

The OrionStats update is interesting. The top 3 characters are the returning Brawl vets. All three were significantly buffed except Snake who was already top tier, so it kinda makes sense. I still believe the best character is Snake given he forces you to play his game in almost every MU and he has almost everything you could want in a character outside of a diverse combo game. Still, there are hundreds of MUs and situations where you would rather be another character and not Snake. Compared to previous games where you’d rather be MK or Bayo in a huge majority of situations, Ultimate is doing well.

Greninja is still 10th, reflecting his strong performance at EVO and elsewhere. Saying he has Ness syndrome may not be entirely accurate; the character is showing far more promise at top level than Ness. Whilst he does fall off at tippy top level, we are by that point talking about around 30 players in the world where their own skill as a player, and who they personally choose to play, are massive factors. My faith in the character has certainly grown lately and I think low top tier is not an altogether outlandish placement for him. He is a little outclassed by Joker but they are different enough that they have some different MUs and you can benefit from playing both characters. Greninja notably seems to do significantly better against Pikachu and Inkling.

NairWizard is spot on about Charizard. How scary would Bowser or Ganon be if you had to fight them while you were both at high percent, nearly all the time? Zard has the luxury of skipping all the situations in the game where heavies are significantly disadvantaged, which is actually kind of ludicrous. Speaking of disadvantage, Zard’s isn’t as bad as a usual heavy either given his multiple jumps, fully armoured up B, wildcard Flare Blitz and frame 1 combo escape option which is hard to punish. This also makes his recovery deceptively hard to challenge.

was starting to do really well near the end of patch 3.0.0, with 2 Pichu's at Top 8 in Smash n' Splash.

But yeah, I don't think I've ever seen a fall-from-grace as big as Pichu's. I do think it's still a very effective and dangerous character, but I imagine how stupidly easy it dies now has become too stressful for some players to handle, particularly VoiD.

I’m sure everyone’s sick of me bringing this up by now but I’ll throw in the obligatory Smash 4 Greninja mention. Character dropped from top 5 contender to total irrelevance. Pichu is widely considered to be a strong character, just riskier to use than you need in Ultimate. He’s also slightly outclassed by Pikachu in a very direct way considering they are semi clones. I still wouldn’t be surprised to see a Pichu resurgence down the line, especially given that everyone will probably forget the MU, in a way that a S4 Greninja resurgence just never could have happened without significant buffs.

And what happens when Hero doesn't get zoom? He either has to air dodge or use his double jump to cancel his down special selection. 50% isn't really all that it's made out to be - that's also roughly a 50% chance of failure.

The easiest way to edge guard hero from my experience is to play reactive and intercept his up b anyway.

Others have gone into it but on the balance of probabilities, you have a very high chance of getting Zoom if you can access the menu three times and usually twice will be enough. A ~90% chance to skip one of the most disadvantaged positions in the game (ledge) is insane.

This also nullifies the character’s weakness to edgeguarding due to his poor regular recovery as he will now be virtually impossible to edgeguard for anyone that can’t get to the blastzone and back safely or throw a projectile with enough range and power.

I’m not sure of the exact frame data but I think characters with the very highest jumps (Falco, Greninja and maybe ZSS) can get close to the top blastzone as Hero comes back and punish the endlag of Zoom, since it seems like he has to wait a bit before doing anything as he drops down. If it’s not a true punish they should at least be able to force a dodge or double jump, and forcing Hero to burn a major resource so high up makes him even easier to juggle than usual.

 

[PURGE THEM LIKE THE]

How is the location at which hero falls down onstage from using zoom determined? Is it random?

 

[Space thing]

How is the location at which hero falls down onstage from using zoom determined? Is it random?

My understanding is that it is random, yes. I still think there's decent counter play to it though. I tend to try to cover the center stage Zoom with an active hitbox (Palu Uair is very good for this); if they come down the middle, great free punish; if they come down on either the left or right, I still have stage control and they're still in some level of disadvantage, so it isn't all bad. Well it isn't free for them anyway. You might also be able to semi react to screen shifts, or the off screen indicator to figure where he's coming down from, though that might be very tricky to impossible realistically.

Also, if you think Hero is gonna try for Zoom, can't some characters shoot a projectile at him to interrupt sometimes? Like, he has to be pretty close to the blast zone to get the RNG bonus, which means either a side blast zone or a bottom one, and no one is gonna try for the bottom unless they have to be that means death if one try falls. So for side blast zones, you can try to hit them before they can act on menu and if you hit them when zoom comes out, it's not coming out the next time. I feel like Palu and Greninja could both do this, though it's certainly not something you can try for every time, or even most of the time. Just seems like a potential option.

 

[The_Bookworm]

How is the location at which hero falls down onstage from using zoom determined? Is it random?

From what I can tell, it is completely random. This is either a good thing or a bad thing depending on the situation.

 

[Rizen]

Are you sure they don't true combo? Because I've definitely gotten combos off of them before.

Edit: yeah this is 100% false. Not really sure what you're talking about but you may want to hit the lab some more and actually lab out your combos. Your placements and how long you've been playing him are irrelevant.

Edit 2: Often times you're getting punished as young ylink because you're committed to an action that causes you to get punished. Or you've misplaced your move and considering your inability to combo off of fire arrow I believe its the latter. Nair -2 fair -3 bair -3. The amount of characters with a 3 frame window is very limited. But I'll continue to listen to your rant actually I won't.

I suggest you actually try playing YL in tournaments and see how far you get because your visions of him being top tier and super safe are incredibly skewed and wishful thinking. And the results back that up. He's a solid high tier but has real issues that hold him back.

 

[|RK|]

Tch, personal bias makes me reflect on the methodology of Orion Stats a bit. It's a very good system, but it's interesting that Kirby will get no points for EVO since I fell short of the 128 cutoff by getting 129th... losing to Leo and Prodigy (who got upset).

It's still likely the best methodology we could have, but now I'll have to add that mental note every time.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

I suggest you actually try playing YL in tournaments and see how far you get because your visions of him being top tier and super safe are incredibly skewed and wishful thinking. And the results back that up. He's a solid high tier but has real issues that hold him back.

Mind elaborating on those issues? (As someone who struggles against Yink)

 

[Rizen]

Mind elaborating on those issues? (As someone who struggles against Yink)

YL's a polarizing character. He has some really good MUs but also gets shut down and walled by bigger disjoint. The worst MUs I've found are Ike and Lucina. They can shield YL's projectiles, back him into a corner, then wall him hard with better frame data and disjoint. YL's Nair and Dair are good in disadvantage vs many characters but his disadvantage is bad vs bigger disjoint. Some characters can wall YL really hard.

YL's attacks often poke out in one direction but don't cover diagonal angles, Fair/Bair/Uair/jab/Fsmash in particular do this. So YL has to align himself with specific spacing. This is another reason why Lucina with big arcing swings is hard.

YL's frame data except Nair is on the slower side with a F6 jab being his fastest ground attack so most characters can out button him. This paired with a f12 tether grab and limited hitboxes on attacks makes CQC dangerous for YL. YL has excellent projectile zoning but he has to throw opponents off balance to make up for this.

His kill moves are weak except Fsmash, which isn't super strong either, and he's light so it looks like YL has an amazing neutral and is super good but he has to outplay most characters much more than they outplay him. One good Bair from someone like Wolf can kill him at 80%.

All his projectiles lose to hitboxes. I've had a really good Yoshi approach with Nair strait through my boomerang. This makes projectiles unsafe up close. Bombs can be caught as items and in this game most attacks can catch items. So if you try to throw a bomb up close you might have the opponent catch it with a DA and still hit you. This makes his CQC even worse.

YL's mobility is alright but not great.

YL has no good shield break or even shield poke setups. He can't pressure shields very well and has to dodge and reset neutral rather than challenge them, which can be punished.

The best way to fight YL is to be patient, take a ground approach and back him into a corner, and push your advantage hard. Also if you have disjoints space him with those and abuse his blindspots.
__________________________________________

This is of course a negative post on YL and he has really good things too. IMO he's a high tier. I'm just tired of people calling him "cancer" or saying he's OP when he's not even placing that well in tournaments and is 27th on Orion Stats. Projectiles even got a universal nerf.

 

[Call_Me_Red]

YL's a polarizing character. He has some really good MUs but also gets shut down and walled by bigger disjoint. The worst MUs I've found are Ike and Lucina. They can shield YL's projectiles, back him into a corner, then wall him hard with better frame data and disjoint. YL's Nair and Dair are good in disadvantage vs many characters but his disadvantage is bad vs bigger disjoint. Some characters can wall YL really hard.

YL's attacks often poke out in one direction but don't cover diagonal angles, Fair/Bair/Uair/jab/Fsmash in particular do this. So YL has to align himself with specific spacing. This is another reason why Lucina with big arcing swings is hard.

YL's frame data except Nair is on the slower side with a F6 jab being his fastest ground attack so most characters can out button him. This paired with a f12 tether grab and limited hitboxes on attacks makes CQC dangerous for YL. YL has excellent projectile zoning but he has to throw opponents off balance to make up for this.

His kill moves are weak except Fsmash, which isn't super strong either, and he's light so it looks like YL has an amazing neutral and is super good but he has to outplay most characters much more than they outplay him. One good Bair from someone like Wolf can kill him at 80%.

All his projectiles lose to hitboxes. I've had a really good Yoshi approach with Nair strait through my boomerang. This makes projectiles unsafe up close. Bombs can be caught as items and in this game most attacks can catch items. So if you try to throw a bomb up close you might have the opponent catch it with a DA and still hit you. This makes his CQC even worse.

YL's mobility is alright but not great.

YL has no good shield break or even shield poke setups. He can't pressure shields very well and has to dodge and reset neutral rather than challenge them, which can be punished.

The best way to fight YL is to be patient, take a ground approach and back him into a corner, and push your advantage hard. Also if you have disjoints space him with those and abuse his blindspots.
__________________________________________

This is of course a negative post on YL and he has really good things too. IMO he's a high tier. I'm just tired of people calling him "cancer" or saying he's OP when he's not even placing that well in tournaments and is 27th on Orion Stats. Projectiles even got a universal nerf.

Wow, thanks for the info. That all makes a lot of sense, actually. But agreed, YL is definitely high tier, probably on the border of top. I'm sorry to admit I did think he was at least a little OP. I'm gunna use this advice to hopefully change my mind.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I suggest you actually try playing YL in tournaments and see how far you get because your visions of him being top tier and super safe are incredibly skewed and wishful thinking. And the results back that up. He's a solid high tier but has real issues that hold him back.

the frame data is there. his aerials are super safe. if you're unable to make use of his frame data that's not the character but the failure on the players end. I have a busy work schedule so I don't attend tournament if you wish to hold my lack of tourney attendance against me then go ahead. Really doesn't change the data. If you're so frustrated with ylink why don't you [pick up a top tier there's no reason to stick to a character and get mediocre results. .

 

[ProfessorVincent]

I'm just tired of people calling him "cancer" or saying he's OP when he's not even placing that well in tournaments and is 27th on Orion Stats.

This is the context I needed to better understand what you say about YL, because sometimes you seem overly negative. I didn't know anyone was saying YL's OP. That's silly. If they're saying it because you're beating them, good for you!

On the other hand, despite saying YL is high but not top tier, you also sometimes seem to think Tweek is the representation the character needs to get top tier results. The implication being that representation somehow changes how good a character is, which obviously isn't true. It does change the perception of it, though.

Do you think YL could get top tier results if someone like Tweek used him more? In which case, maybe we should consider that this game is well balanced enough that top tier is pretty big.

More than any other smash game, top tier seems particularly difficult to pin down in Ultimate. It seems that the only thing separating some high tiers from top tiers is "is there a top player currently playing this character?" Obviously that has nothing to do with how good a character is, but it has happened to several characters lately: Joker, ZSS, Ike, PT... If someone is doing work with it, we think it's top tier, otherwise it's just high tier. This game is well balanced enough that even distinguishing between high and top tiers is difficult, and there doesn't seem to be top players enough to give every potential top tier proper top level representation. I love it!

The best recent example is PT. The character seemed to be high but not top tier. Then Tweek shows everyone how he can outplay Leo's Joker with Charizard in neutral! He didn't keep it up through all of GF's, but the evidence of PT's power level is there. And now Charizard was buffed, so we'll see how it goes.

Mildly unrelated, but I keep seeing stuff like "people complain so much I'm afraid this character is gonna be nerfed to the ground". The balancing team is made up of grown-ups. If they listened to people's complaints they would have actually nerfed Inkling's roller (meaningfully) and driven Olimar to the ground. They seem to be looking at Elite Smash data more than anything, as Sakurai himself said, which is probably for the best since top level results can be so highly influenced by the performances of a handful of players.

 

[Rizen]

This is the context I needed to better understand what you say about YL, because sometimes you seem overly negative. I didn't know anyone was saying YL's OP. That's silly. If they're saying it because you're beating them, good for you!

On the other hand, despite saying YL is high but not top tier, you also sometimes seem to think Tweek is the representation the character needs to get top tier results. The implication being that representation somehow changes how good a character is, which obviously isn't true. It does change the perception of it, though.

Do you think YL could get top tier results if someone like Tweek used him more? In which case, maybe we should consider that this game is well balanced enough that top tier is pretty big.

More than any other smash game, top tier seems particularly difficult to pin down in Ultimate. It seems that the only thing separating some high tiers from top tiers is "is there a top player currently playing this character?" Obviously that has nothing to do with how good a character is, but it has happened to several characters lately: Joker, ZSS, Ike, PT... If someone is doing work with it, we think it's top tier, otherwise it's just high tier. This game is well balanced enough that even distinguishing between high and top tiers is difficult, and there doesn't seem to be top players enough to give every potential top tier proper top level representation. I love it!

The best recent example is PT. The character seemed to be high but not top tier. Then Tweek shows everyone how he can outplay Leo's Joker with Charizard in neutral! He didn't keep it up through all of GF's, but the evidence of PT's power level is there. And now Charizard was buffed, so we'll see how it goes.

Like I've said, I think Tweek and Leo are wildcards who could potentially win large tournaments with any high tier or above. We've seen them consistently beat top players like Samsora (if I'm not mistaken) who is incredible. Both Tweek and Leo have pulled out several characters and taken top ten players down. That's not to say they're invincible as proven by Leo losing to Marss and being sent into losers by... was it kameme's Mega Man? But they're definitely a cut above the rest. This creates an interesting social phenomenon; people get excited by Leo's Joker sweeping everyone and Jokers start popping up everywhere. The same thing happened to Wolf with Zackray then Leo. Now these characters have certainly proven they can hold their own without these top player reps, don't get me wrong. But the snowball and Flavor of the month effects are big.

About :
If Tweek had come in second with him instead of PT I still wouldn't think he's top tier. I play several characters and you can really feel a power difference between YL and Wolf for example. It's a lot less work to win with Wolf and I haven't played him nearly as much (I can expand on this if anyone wants). I think because YL's so technical and has an amazing neutral but low kill power and tricky spacing he probably won't become FotM. People pick him up and find they can't kill until 200% because he's actually really hard to space and play. If Mr.R, Tweek or T really liked him they would have stuck with him. YL's style doesn't fit the current meta of strong punishes.

Tweek could have gotten top tier results with YL but honestly I don't care about that so much as not having a stagnant metagame with YL. If you look at the YL forums, they're dead. Geno's going strong and he's not even in the game. Furthermore there aren't many examples of top tier YL MUs. The ones you do find are often old, between 2 mid level players or a YL player getting beaten by a player who's in a higher league of skill. I can say my experience with MUs but it will differ greatly from someone else's.
The only time I really felt YL's meta advancing was when Tweek was playing him and doing things like Dtilt>upB. Tweek can work magic with any character; it's great. Characters like Luigi have Elegant. And I don't mean to dump on YL's current players, cookieslayer, Kobe, etc are all doing great work. It's just YL lacks any top 100 rep (unless Tweek and Strike decide to use him which seems unlikely).
Most of the growth I've done as a player has been alone. And no one else seems to care either. I've offered to talk about YL's MUs and no one wants to hear it. YL's not meta relevant really.

If I'm being pessimistic about YL it's not entirely unfounded. Look at Evo's top 100 results; there's 1 YL at 65th, Biddy's. I've said "YL has potential as a CP character" but it's not happening. Characters like Bowser and even Luigi are passing him on Orion Stats. No top player has stuck with him and a few have tinkered with the idea of picking him up. YL's not pulling near the results I predicted. Maybe I was overestimating him? Maybe YL's a noob slayer (I have heard him called cancer and OP) but ineffective at higher levels. I don't like to base my impressions on "potential".

 

[NotLiquid]

If you look at the YL forums, they're dead. Geno's going strong and he's not even in the game.

Every character forum is dead, because they've all migrated to Discord.

The only reason newcomer speculation threads are active is because they're social threads filled with non-competitive players that are by far the majority of this site's userbase.

That and because I guess both newcomers and legacy users found out that K. Rool's gargantuan thread became part of the social osmosis beyond Smashboards and propelled public support, which Geno fans presumably hope to replicate.

I digress. Point being, I'm not sure what your point is with this.

 

[Rizen]

Every character forum is dead, because they've all migrated to Discord.

The only reason newcomer speculation threads are active is because they're social threads filled with non-competitive players that are by far the majority of this site's userbase.

That and because I guess both newcomers and legacy users found out that K. Rool's gargantuan thread became part of the social osmosis beyond Smashboards and propelled public support, which Geno fans presumably hope to replicate.

I digress. Point being, I'm not sure what your point is with this.

I partially agree but not all forums are dead. If you look at the Link metagame thread it was posted in today and has 3 pages. Link players are doin' work <3

 

[Tri Knight]

I partially agree but not all forums are dead. If you look at the Link metagame thread it was posted in today and has 3 pages. Link players are doin' work <3

They always are but you know that of course. Some of the most dedicated players I knew. Definitely weren't afraid of telling it how it is either. Loved the Smash4 Link social.

Seeing your blunt replies to others in this thread takes me back lol. Anyway, this is off topic, carry on.

 

[Click5]

Links are the new Ness in this thread. It's just endless...

 

[Nate1080]

How is the location at which hero falls down onstage from using zoom determined? Is it random?

Contrary to what was already said, I don’t think it’s totally random. Generally you’ll return to the middle of the stage, but can influence whether you return closer to the right or left depending on if you’re tilting the stick right or left respectively in my experience.

I’ve went into training room day 1 to try out zoom and did what I just described. I’ve gotten results where I ended up closer to the other side of the stage or even right behind the opponent depending on which direction I tilted the stick.

 

[Nebunera]

Where is this character in competitive?

Isn't he a solid high tier with good matchups?

 

[Modesty]

Where is this character in competitive?

Isn't he a solid high tier with good matchups?

He's pretty good. Fast with good projectiles and combos. Super easy to edgeguard him though.

 

[Tri Knight]

Where is this character in competitive?

Isn't he a solid high tier with good matchups?

Yes, most believe Young Link to be high tier, including those who play him, or frequently play against him. He's a bit under under represented at high to top tier level competitive play but everything we have seen from him over time does indicate that he is solid candidate for high tier.

 

[Gleam]

I actually want to change my perspective on Hero's "Magic Burst" often considered his best spell. The thing is, Magic Burst, when it connects at the right percentage, time and place can be very rewarding. However it is also very situational and risky. It's a move that, for the sake of things, needs to not only hit but also to kill because failure to do either means 0 MP and putting Hero into a very bad situation. It's a move, as stated, that is very situational. Outside of edgeguards, it's relatively easy to avoid and Hero can even be knocked out of it before finishing the spell. There are also some characters like Peach who could certainly outlast the move if used as an edgeguard tool.

It's no different than Kamikazee. Under the right circumstances, in Kamikazee's case having a stock advantage, it can be a beneficial tool giving you easy KOs and keeping your overall advantage in the game. But just as with Kamikazee, it requires a great deal of risk and sacrifice that if failed, means great problems for Hero.

Personally I think

Kaboom
Bang
Oomph
Accelerate
Snooze
Sizzle
Sizz
Thwack
Whack

Are all, better if not more applicable moves. Moves like Kaboom provide enough reward but with very little risk. It still kills naturally, can catch people offstage, has a nice suction and only costs 30 MP (which is a lot but better than wasting all of it) I mean, connecting and killing with Magic Burst still means continuing the fight with 0 MP.

It's a move I've been using less and less. I think Hero has plenty of tools that can help him kill early, edgeguard with far less risks and less need to sacrifice the most important aspect (MP) of the character.