Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

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Whether you're pro-Hero ban or anti-Hero ban you shouldn't be arguing in bad faith, no one is saying Hero should be banned because he's OP, the pro-ban side is saying that the RNG elements he brings are too much.
I still don't get the argument for pro-ban hero people. We want to ban a character becuase he's inconsistent? It cannot be because of his linear tools. hero has a variety of spells that all go in the same trajectory and everything he uses from the command menu is not rng you literally can see what he is doing. A stitch face, misfire, or nine steals more games than hero command menu does. Plus i really dont believe that if these elements were on a character the western audience was excited for we'd even hear this nonsensical argument for.

the only thing that concerns me with hero watching smashcon is why people are getting hit with snooze cross-stage in neutral??? This happened to Leffen and myran. I watched 3 or 4 hours of smashcon and i didn't see hero be competitive in any games. Talking of banning a character whose RNG hurts himself more than anyone else is ridiculous.

plus doesnt the ban side have the burden of proof to say (with MAJOR evidence and data) that hero RNG is bad enough for the game to even begin this conversation?
 
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Arthur97

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I still don't get the argument for pro-ban hero people. We want to ban a character becuase he's inconsistent? It cannot be because of his linear tools. hero has a variety of spells that all go in the same trajectory and everything he uses from the command menu is not rng you literally can see what he is doing. A stitch face, misfire, or nine steals more games than hero command menu does. Plus i really dont believe that if these elements were on a character the western audience was excited for we'd even hear this nonsensical argument for.

the only thing that concerns me with hero watching smashcon is why people are getting hit with snooze cross-stage in neutral??? This happened to Leffen and myran. I watched 3 or 4 hours of smashcon and i didn't see hero be competitive in any games. Talking of banning a character whose RNG hurts himself more than anyone else is ridiculous.

plus doesnt the ban side have the burden of proof to say (with MAJOR evidence and data) that hero RNG is bad enough for the game to even begin this conversation?
There is still RNG even if you see the input. Hocus Pocus anyone? Zoom? Thwack? Not saying they should be banned, but saying that everything from the command menu isn't RNG is just factually false.
 
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There is still RNG even if you see the input. Hocus Pocus anyone? Zoom? Thwack? Not saying they should be banned, but saying that everything from the command menu isn't RNG is just factually false.
Hocus pocus is never used in compeitive play

Twack and whack if you die from them north of 100 i dont care most powerful projectiles on the game would kill anyway.

Zoom is more annoying but its not going to be the reason you win or lose a set. Much less so than peach pulling a bomb or such.

But my argument is nothing on command menu should surprise you. You know all of his options as soon as the hero player does. You have no idea on other rng moves in the game and they are way more impactful ill point you to muteace set today at smashcon where a game was close until he pulled a stitch and then one combo later the game was over.

I will say twavk and wack are annoying and salt inducing but you really shouldnt be getting hit with them.
 

Kokiden

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Whether you're pro-Hero ban or anti-Hero ban you shouldn't be arguing in bad faith, no one is saying Hero should be banned because he's OP, the pro-ban side is saying that the RNG elements he brings are too much.
I'm not sure how I'm arguing in bad faith, since I thought my post was quite reasonable. I never said anything about Hero being OP either so not sure why you brought that up?

I'm merely saying people need to cool it with the ban hammer, and wait and see how his performance goes. That seems pretty reasonable don't you think?

As we saw in the Leffen vs Salem scenario, :ulthero: doesn't have much opportunity to bring up his magic menu when you rush him and don't give him breathing room.

Gotta give things time and see how they play out.

It's the same thing with nerfs. People are always so freaking eager and quick to want bans and nerfs. Honestly people need to calm down with that nonsense.
 
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You suuuuuure? https://twitter.com/Rogue/status/1160293740923277313?s=19

In any case, Zelda's :ultzelda: aerials have too much endlag for their unimpressive range.
I don't know what aerials you think of, but keep in mind that fAir/bAir are kill moves with a huge sourspot (that actually does nothing and is negative on hit until very high percents). Giving them less endlag could end up in being broken. A bigger sweetspot would be welcomed despite the visual cue, though.

However, you are still right because the other aerial you normally use is nAir and nAir has more endlag than fAir and also bAir. It's only 1 or 2 frames slower in endlag, but it'S no kill move and not something like Palutena nAir, meaning you can't combo nair into nair. It has the contrary effect that your opponent falls out from time to time.

In short: She has no functional nAir, her other aerials are ok for what they are used for, especially her dAir is super useful because it lingers forever.
 
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A few other people and myself have been warning people about ken. Riddles was one dropped combo away from beating Leo. Leo didnt know how to di the combos so he simply decided to not get hit, which is perfectly reasonable. he slowed the game all the way down. But against a character that dont have joker's level of mobility, assuming the ken player doesn't drop combos ken needs to land 2 or 3 full combos to kill. thats scary.
 
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DelugeFGC

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Ken is extremely scary, the only thing holding the character back from the top of the tier list is his somewhat lacking (But by no means non-existent) neutral. Otherwise, he has absolutely disgusting damage output and has the ability to kill you stupid early. His combos can do 40-70% on average, and he can kill you with heavy jab into Shoryu most of the time around 85-90%+. That's only like, two mediumish combos for him.

Ken probably has the most explosive damage output in this entire game right now. It's just not easy / free to access, and this sort of character isn't one that appeals to most Smash players. Most Smash players don't really like 2D / traditional fighters, and Ken and Ryu are.. well, extremely faithfully done. Once most people play them and hear about special cancels, light / heavy attacks, directional input special moves, always being locked to facing the opponent.. they'll shy away quickly. Especially given the execution barrier the Shotos have. They're kind of alien in Smash, which means most people will love them or hate them.

So it's no surprise they haven't broken out yet. They don't appeal to most Smash players, as Smash doesn't (usually, I and some others are obvious exceptions) tend to pull in people broadly from the FGC. Smash players are usually, Smash players. As such, they aren't gonna be interested in SF characters as much by extension of that.
 
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Six months ago...

:ultsimon::ultrichter: That being said, rejoice Belmont fans - you're looking like a hard counter to a top tier

Six months later...


Notably, Belmont forced Dabuz to switch off Olimar for Game 2 onward. This is why I feel strongly about Belmont having a niche as a counterpick.
 
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As a low-level player who has gravitated towards the Belmonts (mostly Richter for all that it doesn't usually matter), what about them makes them so good against Olimar in particular? And what other characters do they counter?
 
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Krysco

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In my last post here, I mentioned how Isabelle's jab was buffed among other moves and I got around to labbing the benefits of that change: https://smashboards.com/threads/isabelle-jab-combos.487689/
For a TL;DR, starting at 28% for Pichu, 42% for Bowser and somewhere inbetween for everyone else, Isabelle can true combo jab into reverse utilt and she gets access to more moves to combo into as the percent goes up while her faster moves become more lenient to land and she gets access to kill confirms with this too, namely dtilt and dsmash.
 

Arthur97

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Hocus pocus is never used in compeitive play

Twack and whack if you die from them north of 100 i dont care most powerful projectiles on the game would kill anyway.

Zoom is more annoying but its not going to be the reason you win or lose a set. Much less so than peach pulling a bomb or such.

But my argument is nothing on command menu should surprise you. You know all of his options as soon as the hero player does. You have no idea on other rng moves in the game and they are way more impactful ill point you to muteace set today at smashcon where a game was close until he pulled a stitch and then one combo later the game was over.

I will say twavk and wack are annoying and salt inducing but you really shouldnt be getting hit with them.
RNG is still RNG. It's there even if it's not too terrible. You should have specified how it wasn't an issue rather than claiming that it doesn't exist.

Also, Thwack (or whatever it's called) can certainly kill below 100.

Though, I still think Crits are probably worse than the command menu. I take issue with a non-heavy being able to kill that soon off a smash attack.
 
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Emblem Lord

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A few other people and myself have been warning people about ken. Riddles was one dropped combo away from beating Leo. Leo didnt know how to di the combos so he simply decided to not get hit, which is perfectly reasonable. he slowed the game all the way down. But against a character that dont have joker's level of mobility, assuming the ken player doesn't drop combos ken needs to land 2 or 3 full combos to kill. thats scary.
Why must you insist on warning the masses?

WHY MUST YOU IMPEDE THE DOJO EMPIRE?!
 
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Why must you insist on warning the masses?

WHY MUST YOU IMPEDE THE DOJO EMPIRE?!
i give you credit. i learned about ken being dangerous from your posts. when people have a character as their profile pic on this website generally they understand that character.

RNG is still RNG. It's there even if it's not too terrible. You should have specified how it wasn't an issue rather than claiming that it doesn't exist.

Also, Thwack (or whatever it's called) can certainly kill below 100.

Though, I still think Crits are probably worse than the command menu. I take issue with a non-heavy being able to kill that soon off a smash attack.
you misunderstood what i said. I've read arguments saying that command special itself is the rng factor that should get hero banned. i dont buy that argument as you can see what he is going to pick.

As for twack and whack I really dont see the projectile killing as a large issue in high level play. i dont even think it has good uses. It loses to shield, it can be reflected, it has low priority, and it can be ducked. Its a prayer or to humiliate someone, either way, its hype. jumping to ban is an extreme reaction for a character that has proven nothing. Salem lost a match he could have easily won because he wanted to humiliate leffen and the winner was the crowd and everyone watching. Let hero be hero banning fan favorites it not a good look or conversation.

On aisde note smashcon showed me the second MU i see as 7-3 the first being bayo vs snake village/ issabelle vs. game and watch looks just as painful. I guess villager needs to let him fill the bucket and then zone him that's a steep task given you die to a jab confirm from game and watch.
 
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KirbySquad101

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Winner's Side:

Marss :ultzss: vs Tweek :ultpokemontrainer:
MKLeo :ultjoker: vs Samsora :ultpeach:

Loser's Side:

Maister :ultgnw: vs Light :ultfox:
Lui$ :ultfox::ultfalco::ultmario: vs Nairo :ultpalutena::ultzss:

This Top 8's almost looking as crazy as EVO 2019's; outside of :ultfox: and :ultzss:, everyone else is used only once.

From the looks of things, Fox is showing no signs of stopping anytime soon, contrary to what Light's previous placements might suggest.

Also, we have a :ultgnw: in top 8.... huh.

On a side note, MKLeo and his :ultjoker: are looking less and less untouchable with each tournament, almost losing out to both Riddles and zackray; I was really hoping zackray would've been able to make into top 8.
 
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So about :ultrob:. I think it's safe to say that its had what is by far its most notable breakout tournament. Raffi-X considerably stepped up his performance to reach 12th, while Zackray finally dug out the good old robot to almost send Leo to losers. We also had WaDi, who placed 17th. A few Japanese players think ROB rests at the mid-point of high tier, which is a reasonable position I've long agreed with.

This is just speculation, but what I suspect is going to hold back ROB from going any higher than that point is that for his explosive traits, I have a hard time thinking of any top tier MUs besides Inkling that he does really well at. Despite having hitboxes the size of a truck, a large majority of his biggest moves are fairly punishable and probably the easiest ones to parry. His aerial game is tremendous when pushing his advantage, but in neutral they leave a bit to be desired, and when so many of Ult's top tier contenders have amazing range options, kill options, aerial maneuverability or a combination of all of the above, the character seems kind of hamstrung into an uphill battle.

That is of course, still a good thing in its own right because unlike Brawl and Smash 4, ROB isn't particularly suspect to the same level of power creep that he was before.

MVP for this weekend is clearly Riddles, who had multiple incredible set wins against top seeded players including Dabuz, Pandarian and Bestness all in the same tournament, using :ultrichter: who was almost completely forgotten about, and placed 13th He almost even got an early upset over MKLeo with :ultken:. By far the "hidden boss" of Smash Con, especially giiven his character selection.

Honorable mention to :ultmetaknight: who had both Jayy and Donquavious in Top 32, with Jayy in particular almost making it into Top 16 after beating Myran in a 3-2 set. I suspect MK might just have a niche in this MU given how, despite stubby range, has all the necessary buttons to beat out Olimar's point-blank options (there were several odd moments where Jayy managed to destroy a Pikmin to cancel out Olimar's down smash).

As a low-level player who has gravitated towards the Belmonts (mostly Richter for all that it doesn't usually matter), what about them makes them so good against Olimar in particular? And what other characters do they counter?
Olimar and Belmont both exchange mobility for range (their average speed is roughly the same; Olimar is slightly faster on ground while Belmonts have them beat in the air), but the problem is that Belmont just generally outranges him with too many superior disjoints, projectiles and traps that can wall out Olimar's more potent neutral approaches. Richter in particular has a superior version to Holy Water which can stymie Olimar's red Pikmin at mid-range.

Their recovery is always going to be an achilles heel in this MU, but on the ground Olimar is going to have a hard time breaking any of his defenses when Olimar's aggression isn't the greatest.
 
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So about :ultrob:. I think it's safe to say that its had what is by far its most notable breakout tournament. Raffi-X considerably stepped up his performance to reach 12th, while Zackray finally dug out the good old robot to almost send Leo to losers. We also had WaDi, who placed 17th. A few Japanese players think ROB rests at the mid-point of high tier, which is a reasonable position I've long agreed with.

This is just speculation, but what I suspect is going to hold back ROB from going any higher than that point is that for his explosive traits, I have a hard time thinking of any top tier MUs besides Inkling that he does really well at. Despite having hitboxes the size of a truck, a large majority of his biggest moves are fairly punishable and probably the easiest ones to parry. His aerial game is tremendous when pushing his advantage, but in neutral they leave a bit to be desired, and when so many of Ult's top tier contenders have amazing range options, kill options, aerial maneuverability or a combination of all of the above, the character seems kind of hamstrung into an uphill battle.

That is of course, still a good thing in its own right because unlike Brawl and Smash 4, ROB isn't particularly suspect to the same level of power creep that he was before.

MVP for this weekend is clearly Riddles, who had multiple incredible set wins against top seeded players including Dabuz, Pandarian and Bestness all in the same tournament, using :ultrichter: who was almost completely forgotten about, and placed 13th He almost even got an early upset over MKLeo with :ultken:. By far the "hidden boss" of Smash Con, especially giiven his character selection.

Honorable mention to :ultmetaknight: who had both Jayy and Donquavious in Top 32, with Jayy in particular almost making it into Top 16 after beating Myran in a 3-2 set. I suspect MK might just have a niche in this MU given how, despite stubby range, has all the necessary buttons to beat out Olimar's point-blank options (there were several odd moments where Jayy managed to destroy a Pikmin to cancel out Olimar's down smash).



Olimar and Belmont both exchange mobility for range (their average speed is roughly the same; Olimar is slightly faster on ground while Belmonts have them beat in the air), but the problem is that Belmont just generally outranges him with too many superior disjoints, projectiles and traps that can wall out Olimar's more potent neutral approaches. Richter in particular has a superior version to Holy Water which can stymie Olimar's red Pikmin at mid-range.

Their recovery is always going to be an achilles heel in this MU, but on the ground Olimar is going to have a hard time breaking any of his defenses when Olimar's aggression isn't the greatest.

Well WaDi also placed 7th at CEO to before this. But yeah R.O.B is a solid high tier for sure.
Besides Inkling R.O.B also does surpisignly well vs :ultfox: . He has all tbe tools to wrech Fox offstage and has a pretty good track record vs him in competive play.

But Yeah he still gets scrapped by many other top-tiers like :ultpikachu::ultpalutena::ultzss:
 
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Impax

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I'm assuming acestqr
MVP for this weekend is clearly Riddles, who had multiple incredible set wins against top seeded players including Dabuz, Pandarian and Bestness all in the same tournament, using :ultrichter: who was almost completely forgotten about, and placed 13th He almost even got an early upset over MKLeo with :ultken:. By far the "hidden boss" of Smash Con, especially giiven his character selection

Honorable mention to :ultmetaknight: who had both Jayy and Donquavious in Top 32, with Jayy in particular almost making it into Top 16 after beating Myran in a 3-2 set. I suspect MK might just have a niche in this MU given how, despite stubby range, has all the necessary buttons to beat out Olimar's point-blank options (there were ) .
Riddles is a good pick, but this tournament had a lot of break out performances. Lemon (another canadian) also did really well. And then we had a mii gunner, wft and villager in top 64.
My mvp would probably be Loui$ though. I mean hes still trucking in the top 8

Northcal is an underrated region
 
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Well WaDi also placed 7th at CEO to before this. But yeah R.O.B is a solid high tier for sure.
Besides Inkling R.O.B also does surpisignly well vs :ultfox: . He has all tbe tools to wrech Fox offstage and has a pretty good track record vs him in competive play.

But Yeah he still gets scrapped by many other top-tiers like :ultpikachu::ultpalutena::ultzss:
I kinda lean back and forth on Fox given that he's probably the prime example of a character who gets stupid good reward off of a parry and can basically call out most of ROB's aerial advances with anything in his kit. Although I do admit that it seems extremely volatile given how easy he dies in this MU and how Gyro will block his ground movement so yeah, most likely a mild advantage.
 
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"During the match with Light I couldn’t concentrate at all, it was hopeless. My Wolf might not be as viable anymore"


Uhh oh Zackray dropping Wolf?
 

Anomika

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I don't think he will, at worst he will be his secondary. Though I can see not using Wolf :ultwolf: against MKLeo anymore, and maybe certain other players / characters.
 
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Anomika

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Also... can we talk (again?) about Joker's :ultjoker: Rebel Guard being able to build up his Rebellion Gauge from Gyro for free? I think that getting a bit of it is fine, but being able to hold it for that long and filling it in no time seems kinda ridiculous. I can't remember if Gyro disappears if it hits long enough or if it only stops spinning (also not sure if getting hit by it makes Gyro spin slower).
 

Impax

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"During the match with Light I couldn’t concentrate at all, it was hopeless. My Wolf might not be as viable anymore"


Uhh oh Zackray dropping Wolf?
He should co-main a few characters. He has a plethora of tournament ready characters. ‍♂️
 
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"During the match with Light I couldn’t concentrate at all, it was hopeless. My Wolf might not be as viable anymore"


Uhh oh Zackray dropping Wolf?
Back before Season 1 ended and Zackray stopped traveling as much, observing most of his tournament performances in the homeland made it somewhat evident that he'd been shopping for different characters, as he'd won various regionals and stacked locals with characters like ROB, Pokémon Trainer and Joker. This was before the next set of balance patches dropped, something I initially chalked up to potential concern over Wolf getting hit by a nerf down the line, though assuming his recent tweet isn't just a post-tourney emotional response it may be possible that he feels his Wolf wasn't cutting it anymore even back then, which is a bit of a trend we've seen with some other Smash players (notably MKLeo and Tweek).

Given that he hasn't been in the US for a while, I think it's still safe to say he entered back into the scene being most confident in his Wolf, but I can definitely see a scenario where he benches the character for a while. He has a really large pool of secondaries he's dug out, I just reckon that, like Tweek, he needs to find a character he has the heart for.

For the record, I get the impression that dropping Wolf is more of an arbitrarily personal choice rather than an objective measure of the character. Wolf is an extremely good character and has shown his chops as far as constituting top 5 goes, but I imagine a lot of players like Tweek and Leo didn't feel strongly attached to his play style, which may be something Zackray could end up sympathizing with. A question that might be worth asking is whether or not Wolf has reached his own peak as a character due to his sheer ubiquity and results, and whether or not there even is a meta left that can be advanced with him in a spot that's already so secured.
 
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Anomika

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Yeah, Zackray being talented and quickly getting used to any fighter is truly a blessing for this game because of huge roster and balance patches still happening. But I'll definitely going to miss his Wolf if he drops him (hopefully not).
 

DelugeFGC

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As a low-level player who has gravitated towards the Belmonts (mostly Richter for all that it doesn't usually matter), what about them makes them so good against Olimar in particular? And what other characters do they counter?
They shut him down pretty effectively. They don't hard counter him or anything, the MU at best imo is a slight dis for Olimar and a slight adv for the Belmonts. But it's still in Belmont favor. Olimar doesn't like anything about the Belmonts in the neutral game, at ALL. His Pikmin pluck loses a lot of effective pressure (and thus the ability to bait people) because the ranges you're within range to do it they're within range to toss 37 projectiles at you or go for a whip attack. If you try to close the distance, they're one of the few characters in this game who can outrange you and shut it down. If you try to camp them, they can play that game better than you. Etc, etc.

However, I say it's only a slight advantage for the Belmonts because the Belmonts are still... well, the Belmonts and Olimar is still Olimar. He still retains his stupidly good damage output and all that in this MU, so the second he gets in the Belmonts are going to eat it.. hard. They have abysmal disadvantage states and Olimar only exploits that when he gets going, then he has an absolute laugh of a time finishing the job once he knocks them off stage.

It's a volatile MU for sure, but the neutral is hell for Olimar and for that reason the MU is widely considered to be in the Belmonts favor. The Belmonts do best in any MU that lets them do their thing and play neutral without getting rushed down and gimped for free.. which sadly isn't a ton of MU's.
 
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sleepy_Nex

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Thank you very much.

It's sad too see just how much Ike has fallen off. He is still a good character no question but man once his only option got figured he has fallen really far.
Ryuga too seems to have picked up Hero.

san. san. What do you think? Could the current Ike make a comeback in representation?
 
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mvp i have to go meister or kept. Mostly becuase i had seen riddles before so his performance wasnt a shock. He just ran into the worst possible MU and was knocked out.

its good to see leo lean into rebels guard more. its a frame three counter that summons a jojo character. there's no reason not to use it. its a crazy tool that i expected to get nerfed a while back but as long as he has it go for it.
 

PK Gaming

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I can't believe are willing to complain about crits and a meme command skill (Hocus Pocus), while ignoring the absolute ludicrous damage hero gets off his neutral and side specials

Salem wasn't even playing better than your typical wifi warrior using Hero, given how he didn't bother using Frizz or properly spacing his aerials. Once Hero's start leaning on his core kit, things will change for the character. Mark my words.
 
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Arthur97

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The damage output is ludicrous, but the fire one (I'm honestly not sure which is which with this naming scheme) is kind of easy to just jump over at full charge.

The crits bug me for one because I don't like those runts hitting so ludicrously hard (though I'm also pretty bitter they essentially just have a better jump slash, one of Link's most iconic moves). Is it a problem? More than likely it won't be much of one, but it still seems like poor design. Then again, they seem to about with poor design decisions. Is it just because DQ is so popular in Japan?
 

KirbySquad101

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For his Neutral B, you have to reach the second/third stage of the spell to keep its charge, right? From the looks of it, Leffen didn't give him much breathing room to charge it; then again, Salem decided to opt for Command Deck shenanigans when he did have breathing room, which kinda worked with the Snooze, but was mostly ineffective for the most part. I do agree that his neutral B/side B will be the most optimal way to play this character, but deciding when to actually go for it will probably be an important aspect to consider.

That said, I'm really looking forward to how :ulthero: players develop his meta; if there's one player that's talented enough to have him figured outfit, it's going to be Salem.
 
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For his Neutral B, you have to reach the second/third stage of the spell to keep its charge, right? From the looks of it, Leffen didn't give him much breathing room to charge it; then again, Salem decided to opt for Command Deck shenanigans when he did have breathing room, which kinda worked with the Snooze, but was mostly ineffective for the most part.

That said, I'm really looking forward to how :ulthero: players develop his meta; if there's one player that's talented enough to have him figured outfit, it's going to be Salem.
Yes, it's like Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron in that there are discrete charge levels and you have to reach that specific point to hold the charge in question. That said, it reaches the second charge level pretty fast, so it's mostly a way to limit how easy it is to charge...uh, Kafrizz? (Seconding the confusing nomenclature, to a point. It's either Frizz->Frizzle->Kafrizz or Frizz->Kafrizz->Frizzle. And now I'm thinking of Magic School Bus. But I digress.)
 

Slime Master

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Yes, it's like Thunder/Elthunder/Arcthunder/Thoron in that there are discrete charge levels and you have to reach that specific point to hold the charge in question. That said, it reaches the second charge level pretty fast, so it's mostly a way to limit how easy it is to charge...uh, Kafrizz? (Seconding the confusing nomenclature, to a point. It's either Frizz->Frizzle->Kafrizz or Frizz->Kafrizz->Frizzle. And now I'm thinking of Magic School Bus. But I digress.)
It's frizz -> frizzle -> kafrizz. The ka- line is always stage three.
 

san.

1/Sympathy = Divide By Zero
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Thank you very much.

It's sad too see just how much Ike has fallen off. He is still a good character no question but man once his only option got figured he has fallen really far.
Ryuga too seems to have picked up Hero.

san. san. What do you think? Could the current Ike make a comeback in representation?
I think that Ike will remain rare in representation. He's not nearly as easy as people made him appear to be, so this was to be expected.
The issue with Ike is that they switched around all of his best tools from smash 4 (they partially did this from brawl to smash 4, but not to such an extent), so his original mains from Smash 4 are generally pretty alienated, still figuring things out. They nerfed his grab, jab, fair, and dtilt. Most of those moves are just OK in ultimate, but they are no longer go-to moves for him.

Ike plays a lot more like a traditional sword character, and that hurts when there are better sword characters available in Lucina and maybe Roy, Chrom, and Cloud. Outside of the Lucina, the others aren't too common either. Cloud rides on having a lot of mains from smash 4. Ike isn't the type of character that a high level player will switch to, which is why I was surprised MKLeo used him in the beginning of the game.

Even so, I think Ike himself remains pretty strong, but he may be seen as mid tier as time goes on with no progress. Ike's aerials are still great (though some nerfed, some buffed), with many powerful confirms and advantaged state. It's just that many other characters made strides in their own advantage state and combos. He no longer easily beats as many characters as he used to in the beginning of the game.

Theoretically, there are still a lot of optimizations Ike players can make to their combo and tech chase game. There is a good amount of potential with how his quick draw and aether can be used as well, since they can directly beat out so many options if a button is pressed. He also has a plethora of situational tools that are very good in specific situations that need to be figured out, he just doesn't have the player base to really push these things as hard. There's a place for jab, dtilt, utilt, ftilt, dash attack, and smashes that each excel in a particular area or two, but cannot be relied upon fully. He doesn't have an extremely reliable grounded poke anymore like Brawl jab and Smash 4 dtilt. How Ike progresses is how he can utilize these other tools to help against playstyles specifically designed to shut down his nair. This can be seen a bit in some of Marss' gameplay.

On another note, Hero is even more complicated. You likely won't be seeing many high level players switching to him since there are too many things to optimize to be good. You can't really easybake strong combos and confirms.
 
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Megamang

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The problem with the pocket desperation pick is two fold. You only go with it when you are desperate (duh), in other words the other player has a read on you. And, you are probably much less practiced and warmed up with the pocket character. Smash 4 Cloud was nice to have in the pocket for his simplicity and ability to force you onto his gameplan, I don't think ult has any character that quite fits that descrption easily. Some come close, but even the characters that force their gameplan tend to have more holes. So it comes out when you are getting beaten, which makes it look worse.

MKLeo talked about a hidden secondary swordsman, and he is the swordsman master... yet we didn't see it yet. He keeps trying Joker, he knows it can work and he needs to adapt as a player.


Time will tell, I really want to see it simply because when MKLeo plays a character I get twice as good with that character immediately due to his depth of knowledge. If I was a betting man, I would wager it is Marth. He is the kind of player that could easily really pull out the differences from Lucina, and i have seen some stuff where MK was hype about the tipper mechanic on dancing blade.


The only thing is, I would think Marth does pretty well vs Peach (then again I thought the same about Joker at SnS)... Perhaps MK presumes he will make it to finals and wants to keep the surprise factor.


Let me know if this belongs in the dedicated SSC thread. I thought the first part was meta relevant, and wanted to give my opinion on this impending secondary based game....

There are advantages, if you really feel they have a download on your character, the changing it up from what you are 'warmed up' on can be exactly what you need to take the set. It doesn't never work. And again, its hard to have numbers because its more rare to pull it out after a close game or even after a win. I personally like that choice, keep it mixed up and you can play to the stage a bit more... but, its hard to argue you should switch when you just won, lol.
 
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