Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Lore]

I think quite a few characters will have similar opinion changes as the game develops, for better or worse. Mewtwo seems like one of the first to go.

 

[Diddy Kong]

We're on page 111, and now I need to ask this urgent question, because I saw it on many matches with pro players as well; how often is your damage % at EXACTLY 111% or better yet, 111,1%? Because that number has been following me around pretty much since launch day.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I literally like how the opinion of Mewtwo in this thread simply transformed from "this character is good, just different" to "this character needs a buff" after Frostbite. I feel like the character has some room to grow in advantage, and his weaknesses, although does impact the character, is getting a bit overblown.

The big thing everyone is bringing up is the Mewtwo tail hitbox increase. The weakness, although can be annoying from to time, isn't as a big issue as people think. Mewtwo's tail in his run animation is no where near as stretched out or non-disjointed as in Melee, which that game is also more movement based than in Ultimate. Getting out of Mewtwo's dash because of the tail hitbox doesn't really occur that often (at least from what I have seen). Also, the complaining that Mewtwo is simply going to get hit by swinging his tail only really applies if you think hitbox trading happens all the time. His tail still has disjoint, and not all of his attacks actually use his tail.

The other point is that Mewtwo cannot land. This is blatantly false. Although Mewtwo does have some issues landing, he has some ways to mix up his landings. Confusion still stalls him in midair, and he can use Teleport to force the opponent to predict his landing, especially on stages with platforms. The fact that Mewtwo's warp is the fastest of the three in terms of startup helps too.

I am not saying these two weaknesses should be written off, but I think people here are overexaggerating those two weaknesses. I also think people are jumping the gun that Mewtwo needs buffs. It is too early to tell.

Look at this hurtbox for 's tail:

This disjoint is a complete joke. Compared to :

 

[Omnos]

Mewtwo would benefit from a weight increase. Basically the same hurtbox size as Charizard but as light as fox. Needs some compensation for being so easy to hit.

 

[J0eyboi]

I literally like how the opinion of Mewtwo in this thread simply transformed from "this character is good, just different" to "this character needs a buff" after Frostbite.

I've literally never thought Ult Mewtwo was good and neither have a lot of others in this thread but go off ig

The big thing everyone is bringing up is the Mewtwo tail hitbox increase. The weakness, although can be annoying from to time, isn't as a big issue as people think.

People don't bring up Mewtwo's tail hurtbox because it's a significant balance issue. It's not. People bring it up because it's almost tailor-made to be unfun. Like, if I were trying to design something to be unfun, I would use Mewtwo's tailbox as inspiration. It's really bad.

The other point is that Mewtwo cannot land. This is blatantly false. Although Mewtwo does have some issues landing, he has some ways to mix up his landings. Confusion still stalls him in midair, and he can use Teleport to force the opponent to predict his landing, especially on stages with platforms. The fact that Mewtwo's warp is the fastest of the three in terms of startup helps too.

Teleport as a mixup only works when you're close enough to the ground that you don't go into special fall, and is pretty reactable even then. Combined with Mewtwo's bad airdodge, bad air accel, bad double jump, slow buttons, and massive hurtbox, he sucks at getting out of aerial pressure. Teleport and Confusion put his disadvantage barely above heavy-tier, but they don't even come close to saving it.

 

[Wintermelon43]

I literally like how the opinion of Mewtwo in this thread simply transformed from "this character is good, just different" to "this character needs a buff" after Frostbite. I feel like the character has some room to grow in advantage, and his weaknesses, although does impact the character, is getting a bit overblown.

The big thing everyone is bringing up is the Mewtwo tail hitbox increase. The weakness, although can be annoying from to time, isn't as a big issue as people think. Mewtwo's tail in his run animation is no where near as stretched out or non-disjointed as in Melee, which that game is also more movement based than in Ultimate. Getting out of Mewtwo's dash because of the tail hitbox doesn't really occur that often (at least from what I have seen). Also, the complaining that Mewtwo is simply going to get hit by swinging his tail only really applies if you think hitbox trading happens all the time. His tail still has disjoint, and not all of his attacks actually use his tail.

The other point is that Mewtwo cannot land. This is blatantly false. Although Mewtwo does have some issues landing, he has some ways to mix up his landings. Confusion still stalls him in midair, and he can use Teleport to force the opponent to predict his landing, especially on stages with platforms. The fact that Mewtwo's warp is the fastest of the three in terms of startup helps too.

I am not saying these two weaknesses should be written off, but I think people here are overexaggerating those two weaknesses. I also think people are jumping the gun that Mewtwo needs buffs. It is too early to tell.

Are people really saying Mewtwo needs to be buffed? Not that Mewtwo being buffed would be a problem or anything (well, as long as it’s not huge, at least), but when he’s upper mid tier at worst, and likely high tier, that seems like an exaggeration to say he of all characters really needs it. There are other characters, such as Kirby, Bowser Jr, Sheik, and Rosalina, that could use buffs more. Mewtwo’s biggest problem (in the way people think of him) really is that he has little representation (and considering Pichu is a better and easier to use glass cannon, the representation will probably be even worse in this game). He’d probably be looked at more postitvely if he had more rep to show that he’s good; considering Abadango and Wadi stopped using him and SDX probably is too, that doesn’t look too good about his viability.

 

[meleebrawler]

Are people really saying Mewtwo needs to be buffed? Not that Mewtwo being buffed would be a problem or anything (well, as long as it’s not huge, at least), but when he’s upper mid tier at worst, and likely high tier, that seems like an exaggeration to say he of all characters really needs it. There are other characters, such as Kirby, Bowser Jr, Sheik, and Rosalina, that could use buffs more. Mewtwo’s biggest problem (in the way people think of him) really is that he has little representation (and considering Pichu is a better and easier to use glass cannon, the representation will probably be even worse in this game). He’d probably be looked at more postitvely if he had more rep to show that he’s good; considering Abadango and Wadi stopped using him and SDX probably is too, that doesn’t look too good about his viability.

We got three to four posts about buffing him in quick succession, so uh yeah.

Anyway, the consensus for Mewtwo sounds more like he is polarizing, as most glass cannons tend to be. Those who can work around the weaknesses see great potential and reward, but those who can't just see garbage or far too much work. Think of all the people who've played Ryu in Street Fighter, took one look at Akuma and notice how much better he seems at a moveset glance, then tried him and immediately did a lot worse due to trying the same basic Ryu fundamentals on a much more fragile character.

Pichu is the more traditional glass cannon people are used to in Smash: ideally tiny and suffocating frame data, but he has weaknesses Mewtwo doesn't have. Namely to camping. It's almost hilarious how much I once turned the tables on one with Incineroar just by staying on platforms to make tjolt approaches less effective.

 

[Yikarur]

Yoshi is a really good character. I've got 97th at my first US major ever and there has been a lot room to place better. I didn't know the ZSS MU yet so I lost to Juice getting surprised by a lot of new KO options. I could've made Top48 with just a little bit more experience. It's not the characters fault.

I'm sure we're going to see a lot more Yoshi in the future

 

[Sean²]

I wouldn't really classify Mewtwo as a glass cannon, IMO. If that's what I'm picking up here. He's light, but doesn't quite fit the "Either I rack up 90+ damage on you within the first 30 seconds, or you kill me at 20 within the same amount of time" shoes that characters like Pichu, Mac, and Chrom were meant to fill.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I wouldn't really classify Mewtwo as a glass cannon, IMO. If that's what I'm picking up here. He's light, but doesn't quite fit the "Either I rack up 90+ damage on you within the first 30 seconds, or you kill me at 20 within the same amount of time" shoes that characters like Pichu, Mac, and Chrom were meant to fill.

Well I would classify Fox as the other real true glass cannon aside from Pichu. He can easily rack up damage and kill you super fast, but can also get killed as fast himself due to how light he is and he will occasionally just get gimped at really low percents due to his suspect recovery.

Little Mac is still pretty much a goner as soon as he gets tossed offstage, How strong he is on the ground is not enough make up for that at all . Mac is more like a rusted completely unmainted cannon that will fall apart Bluesmobile style once you try to move it to any other position

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

tbh I never got why people complain about Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox

It's a tail. It's a part of it's body. It makes sense for the thing to have a hurtbox (and it's not like the entire tail has a hurtbox either)

Because no one likes getting hit when they're trying foxtrot away, or when they're trying to land a tilt. Real world logic should be discarded if it compromises the gameplay experience. Can you imagine trying to play Ridley if Ridley's tail was also a hurtbox? God help you.

I wouldn't really classify Mewtwo as a glass cannon, IMO. If that's what I'm picking up here. He's light, but doesn't quite fit the "Either I rack up 90+ damage on you within the first 30 seconds, or you kill me at 20 within the same amount of time" shoes that characters like Pichu, Mac, and Chrom were meant to fill.

He's mostly glass and not much cannon. He has the frame data and hurtbox of a heavyweight but just happens to inexplicably be super light as well (ironically, he actually outweighs Charizard by a wide margin in canon). His kit is nowhere near oppressive enough to justify how easy it is to kill him.

 

[SwagGuy99]

tbh I never got why people complain about Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox

It's a tail. It's a part of it's body. It makes sense for the thing to have a hurtbox (and it's not like the entire tail has a hurtbox either)

If you want to understand why people might be annoyed, it's similar to in Melee. had a hurtbox on his tie to stop projectiles from not hitting him but doing this also made his hurtbox quite a bit bigger which exasperated the fact that as a super-heavyweight with a fast fall speed, he got juggled even more than most characters to begin with. Making his hurtbox bigger just made this issue worse than it would have been otherwise. And sure, while he still had good range, kill power, movement speed, etc., a lot of high and top tier characters could capitalize off of juggling like , , , , , and which made his top tier matchup spread quite poor. This is a good example of what happens when a character's hurtbox is made larger and what it can do to a character.

So while it may seem like a small change for 's tail to have a larger hurtbox than , it exasperates some of his main weaknesses even further which makes him a worse character than , despite buffs he may have gotten in other areas. I don't think is terrible, but since release I've gone from thinking of him as a potential top tier to low high tier because of this and several other changes he received from Smash 4.

 

[Rizen]

I don't play but it seems like the airdodge changes hit him a lot harder than his tail hurtbox. Mewtwo was able to warp around the stage with virtually no lag and a f2 dodge. With that removed his disadvantage state is awful. I've gotten a ton of damage punishing his landings.

 

[Minordeth]

Fixing Mewtwo’s tail hurtbox would help exponentially.

And I realize they gave his Nair to Pikachu, but that’s no reason to make his so much less functional.

Taking away his three button neutral was fine, tho.

It’s clear they wanted to make him more bait and punish, as his ground movement is bananas, but currently that design change isn’t working as intended.

 

[J0eyboi]

So while it may seem like a small change for 's tail to have a larger hurtbox than , it exasperates some of his main weaknesses even further

Exacerbates*

I wouldn't really classify Mewtwo as a glass cannon, IMO. If that's what I'm picking up here. He's light, but doesn't quite fit the "Either I rack up 90+ damage on you within the first 30 seconds, or you kill me at 20 within the same amount of time" shoes that characters like Pichu, Mac, and Chrom were meant to fill.

If I had to describe Mewtwo, I'd probably call him "****ty Merkava" (Merkava, for the record, is this thing from UNIST). He has a strong neutral due to his long-range buttons and overall good mobility, but his damage output is below average, and his slow buttons and big hurtbox give him a hard time dealing with pressure.

 

[Nobie]

Mewtwo's damage is not below average. A charged Shadow Ball into dash attack at 0% combos and does 46%. 46!!!

The big thing about Mewtwo is that a lot of its damage doesn't come from guaranteed combos, but rather long strings and elaborate mix-ups that are strong but rarely 100%. And even when the character gets less than ideal damage, its moves are great for getting the opponent offstage and into an edgeguard/ledge trap situation, both of which Mewtwo excels at.

I think the actual problem is that Mewtwo takes as much as it dishes out, and many players don't like that idea. They don't want a glass cannot that can potentially be abused for a bad decision, they want glass cannons that can just completely circumvent their weaknesses.

If Mewtwo gets buffed in 3.0, so be it. But I doubt that any patch can make players own their bad decisions.

 

[ZephyrZ]

I seriously doubt they'd make a patch as significant as removing his tail hitbox, or making a weight buff substantial enough to circumvent his big floaty hurtbox. I swear "buff Mewtwo's weight" should be a meme at this point.

If y'all are asking for buffs, at least ask for realistic ones like a buff to the start up on his air dodge or his damage output. Not that I find asking for buffs / nerfs to be at all productive.

But anyway I still think Mewtwo's fairly good. He's not top tier but he's not trash tier either. It's just that "good" doesn't cut it for most top level players.

 

[Y2Kay]

Mewtwo is, or at least used to be, a glass cannon zoner. Instead of someone like Pichu who trades in livability for extremely oppressive advantage state, Mewtwo trades in livability to have an oppressive neutral.

Speaking of Pichu, I'm becoming less and less impressed with this character. I've been studying the MU, it's kind of dawned on me how lacklustre this character's neutral is. Outside of Tjolts, and crossup Nair pressure, the character seems to just run around fishing for combo starters, most of which our fast but have piss poor range. He obviously won't be bad, because there are only two characters in the whole roster who has a better advantage state than him (Peach and Olimar), but having a kit almost exclusively filled with tools that are only really tailored for combos, edgeguarding, and ledgetrapping seems to have its detriments.

Also, for the love of god, can we stop crediting Pichu with this fake "speed"? The character's movement stats are average at best, but people calling him fast

 

[Nidtendofreak]

Its highly unlikely that they would remove Mewtwo's tail hurtbox, or give him more than a couple of points of weight when looking back at SSB4's patch history. Hurtbox changes weren't exactly common, and weight changes were always just a few units. Absolute bleeding max I could see them increasing his weight is from 77 to 82 (Rosalina and Falco's weight). More likely to like 79 if anything.

I ain't going to pretend I'm an expert in how to play Mewtwo at all here but like... have Mewtwo mains tried using less of his tail moves and more moves that don't result with him facing his back towards his opponent? Like the picture that keeps getting posted is either ftilt or bair and those seem like the absolute worst moves to be throwing out if the majority of the tail has a hurtbox. Why not more Fair, Nair, Jab while trying to make sure to always be facing the opponent? Gotta change how you play Mewtwo compared to SSB4 anyways, might as well trying to go all in on changing up the playing style if that's doable.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Mewtwo's results beyond SDX aren't amazing, either. 33rd on TTS and on the other sheet he is *squints* 42nd in the last month? And those results are bolstered by SDX's performance.

One way to look at is he is abandoning the character, another way to look at it is he put in work trying to make it work in major events for a few months, became deeply upset about it, and has moved on. More than most.

 

[itsaxelol]

Mewtwos buffs don't come anywhere close to negating his nerfs. I'd go as far as saying he might even be the most overrated character in the game, with the amount of people still putting him at high or high mid.

With the nerfs -and- pichus existence, Mewtwo basically got neutered

 

[E.G.G.M.A.N.]

I ain't going to pretend I'm an expert in how to play Mewtwo at all here but like... have Mewtwo mains tried using less of his tail moves and more moves that don't result with him facing his back towards his opponent? Like the picture that keeps getting posted is either ftilt or bair and those seem like the absolute worst moves to be throwing out if the majority of the tail has a hurtbox. Why not more Fair, Nair, Jab while trying to make sure to always be facing the opponent? Gotta change how you play Mewtwo compared to SSB4 anyways, might as well trying to go all in on changing up the playing style if that's doable.

Their limited reach makes them poor approach options. Instead let me save you some time and tell you this: just use Shadow Ball. It's basically the only move he has that characters with projectiles and/or disjoints actually need to respect in neutral. He is basically Shadow Ball: The Movie The Game.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Mewtwos buffs don't come anywhere close to negating his nerfs. I'd go as far as saying he might even be the most overrated character in the game, with the amount of people still putting him at high or high mid.

With the nerfs -and- pichus existence, Mewtwo basically got neutered

I dont think Mewtwo is looking too overated compared to other characters.
I mean looking at other examples


Well I guess so..in that so so many were saying they were going to be the undisputer best characters in the game in the very beginning altough that ended up not the case they are still very good and at least high-tier, with Inkling may still being top-tier


Touted as high-or even top-tiers to at the beginning. But yeah once people knew hoe to fight them and their flaws become more apparent. Not that they are terrible, but yeah they were overated.Plus they seem to have good counterpick potential for certian MU'sa


Yeah do I really need to say anything here?

 

[MrGameguycolor]

This talk of M2 being meh is too damn funny to me.

Watch, in a few months we'll probably be saying he's top 15 again.

 

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

Not to say Mewtwo will always be the golden goose or that people should just sit and wait for buffs, but M2 in sm4sh was the poster child for special treatment from a buff for me. He got weight buff from 72 to 74, speed from 1.9 to 2.05, shortened upsmash and made nair more consistent. People shouldn't wait for this kind of thing to fall out of the sky but special treatment has happened and can happen

 

[itsaxelol]

I dont think Mewtwo is looking too overated compared to other characters.
I mean looking at other examples


Well I guess so..in that so so manywere saying they were going to be the undisputer best characters in the game in the very beginning altough that likely is not the case they are still very good and at least high-tier, with Inkling may still being top-tier


Touted as high-or even top-tiers to at the beginning. But yeah once people knew hoe to fight them and thier flaws become more apparent. Not that they are terrible, but yeah they were overated.Plus they seem to have good counterpick potential forcertian MU'sa


Yeah do I really need to say anything here?

I still find all of those except k rool to be contenders for high tier. Top to high isn't as bad as Mewtwos run as a low top to where I think he will end up (low middle)

And yeah no one with a brain/above the age of 15 was running around calling k rool great after the first few (edit) days! lol

 

[MrGameguycolor]

Yeah do I really need to say anything here?

Ha, and people gave me crap for saying he was overhyped.
(Not so hot now eh)

As much fun as he is, he's just going through the phase.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Big character attributes sheet from data mining People here might like this

 

[Nysyr]

If y’all are relying on buffs to save your character, just be prepared to be dissapointed. 3.0 will tell whether they pay attention to offline or not, and what strategy they choose to employ for balancing. Don’t be surprised if nothing changes.

Why risk effort into a low tier when you can get results now with a top tier.

 

[|RK|]

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Language warning, but Parappa made a video explaining why he thinks Ken is trash lmao

 

[SwagGuy99]

Also, for the love of god, can we stop crediting Pichu with this fake "speed"? The character's movement stats are average at best, but people calling him fast

After seeing you call Pichu's speed 'fake' I decided to go on KuroganeHammer and look at stats in comparison to and everyone else's. This is what I found:

• Air Acceleration: 9-13/78 (Tied with )
• Max Air Speed: 45-47/78 (Higher than)
• Fall Speed: 6/78 (Significantly higher than )
• Fast Fall Speed (Someone tell me if I get this one wrong): 38/78 (Very slightly higher than )
• Initial Dash Speed: 29-34/78 (Tied with )
• Run Speed: 25/78 (Lower than )
• Walk Speed: 12-13/78 (Tied with )
• Weight: 77/77 (Significantly lower than )

So, if we are going off his placements in comparison to the rest of the cast (only in regards to speed), then no, his speed is not 'fake', it's definitely above average in most areas, so even if some people are exaggerating it, he's still not that slow.


All of the exact values can be found on http://kuroganehammer.com

 

[Ziodyne 21]

If y’all are relying on buffs to save your character, just be prepared to be dissapointed. 3.0 will tell whether they pay attention to offline or not, and what strategy they choose to employ for balancing. Don’t be surprised if nothing changes.

Why risk effort into a low tier when you can get results now with a top tier.

If they only pay attention to online abd online only Gannondorf will be nerfed to Brawl quality. The links and all those other characters that profir from wi-fi connections. Thankfully i domt think that will be the case

 

[Y2Kay]

Are those values supposed to be impressive? Very little of those stats are. Pichu's speed isn't good enough for him to break zoners, so I don't consider him fast. I guess he's technically above average speed since there's nearly 70 characters in this game.

 

[boysilver400]

If y’all are relying on buffs to save your character, just be prepared to be dissapointed. 3.0 will tell whether they pay attention to offline or not, and what strategy they choose to employ for balancing. Don’t be surprised if nothing changes.

Why risk effort into a low tier when you can get results now with a top tier.

Were the 2.0 changes geared more towards online, offline, or both?

I may be overly optimistic for a Kirby main but based on the last patch I think they could keep going with(mostly) small balance changes and possibly make lower tiers work, but we'll just have to see.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

If they only pay attention to online abd online only Gannondorf will be nerfed to Brawl quality. The links and all those other characters that profir from wi-fi connections. Thankfully i domt think that will be the case

Which characters theoretically have the biggest performance difference between offline and online? If you were some wolf of Wall Street type and wanted to put a big bet on a top tier that actually performs modestly online, what would it be? Sakurai already mentioned that Peach/Daisy have a 54% and 50% elite win rate, respectively

 

[ZephyrZ]

Pichu may not be the speedy monster Fox and Greninja are but a character with good air acceleration, moderate run speed and tiny frame can only be so weak to zoning. She's still able to maneuver around projectiles more easily then a lot of characters and once she does get in close good air acceleration does give some decent amount of burst to her aerials to help make up for their short range. I'd still say she has fairly good mobility overall.

Thunderjolt isn't still as helpful for approaching swordies for Pichu as it is for Pikachu because she can't through them out as freely but it's still far better to have that move then not to have it in those match ups, she just has to be more careful with it. There's no getting around that Pichu still has a bad range but she has good enough tools and attributes to work around that weaknesses, which is something not every character can say.

 

[meleebrawler]

I seriously doubt they'd make a patch as significant as removing his tail hitbox, or making a weight buff substantial enough to circumvent his big floaty hurtbox. I swear "buff Mewtwo's weight" should be a meme at this point.

If y'all are asking for buffs, at least ask for realistic ones like a buff to the start up on his air dodge or his damage output. Not that I find asking for buffs / nerfs to be at all productive.

But anyway I still think Mewtwo's fairly good. He's not top tier but he's not trash tier either. It's just that "good" doesn't cut it for most top level players.

And it doesn't help that in his home competitive environment, he's always near the top class, even among his legendary peers; his debut in particular made him a nigh-untouchable monster. I can't help but feel this skews perception of him somewhat where being anything less than the best or close to it comes as being a huge disappointment. That plus glass cannon nature means opinions are usually either great or terrible, very little in-between... which by averages is likely where he'd end up if things continue.

Anyway, I'll just leave this here if anyone is still sticking to the tail: https://smashboards.com/threads/get-the-facts-about-mewtwos-hurtbox-disjoints-here.476521/

tl,dr; The tail was never good as a "sword" even in 4.

 

[Gérard Majax]

Well, I didn't expect to spark such a big discussion.

I'm just gonna correct some stuff.

The big thing everyone is bringing up is the Mewtwo tail hitbox increase. The weakness, although can be annoying from to time, isn't as a big issue as people think. Mewtwo's tail in his run animation is no where near as stretched out or non-disjointed as in Melee, which that game is also more movement based than in Ultimate. Getting out of Mewtwo's dash because of the tail hitbox doesn't really occur that often (at least from what I have seen). Also, the complaining that Mewtwo is simply going to get hit by swinging his tail only really applies if you think hitbox trading happens all the time. His tail still has disjoint, and not all of his attacks actually use his tail.

Yeah I'm overall fine with having hurtboxes on tail attacks (although it makes fighting swordies a pain, + why does dk have intangible arms then lol). It"s pretty flavorful and gives the character a clear weakness.
The main issue comes from the hurtbox attached to the character. You just get hit by completely random stuff sometimes (never play m2 against inkling rofl you get buried from half the stage), get juggled easily, ledge roll is stupidly easy to hit, stuff like that.

The other point is that Mewtwo cannot land. This is blatantly false. Although Mewtwo does have some issues landing, he has some ways to mix up his landings. Confusion still stalls him in midair, and he can use Teleport to force the opponent to predict his landing, especially on stages with platforms. The fact that Mewtwo's warp is the fastest of the three in terms of startup helps too.

Yeah sure I'm gonna teleport to the wolf/inkling/whatever swordie waiting below me, sounds cool. Zelda has more range and potential mixups due to the hitbox, Palu gets a lot of momentum, m2 just kinds of "woosh" and floats awkwardly, which makes it pretty hard to use this way. It's probably doable in some cases, but it's definitely not a reliable option. Confusion is cute but hey, by the time you finished it your opponent finished his jump and is ready to do another one (+ you still have to land). Shine stall works on fox because he is a fastfaller and can cover himself with reliable hitboxes (and also he is harder to hit).

I think the actual problem is that Mewtwo takes as much as it dishes out, and many players don't like that idea. They don't want a glass cannot that can potentially be abused for a bad decision, they want glass cannons that can just completely circumvent their weaknesses.

Well sure, but his punish game is actually pretty mild for a glass canon. Strings don't really go beyond 3 hits, and he doesn't have any super broke kill confirm. Shadow Ball is broke though, and is definitely what keeps him alive right now (just watch any SDX set, it's shadow ball city).
I'm not saying that his neutral/advantage are bad, because they aren't. It's just that compared to Pichu, aka "I will get 30% from any (safe!) hit and I have like 4 ways to kill sub 100" and Fox who is randomly running around spamming buttons and confirming into an usmash which hits 3 screens away, he is pretty tame.

Also sure it's easy to say "git gud lol", but when the character has completely disappeared from the radar and when his only main is currently on a hiatus because he can't stand it anymore, it's not a bright future for the character. I don't really see him go higher as the meta evolves either, he doesn't have any tools which tell me "this is going to be more relevant as the players learn to use it" like shulk/duck hunt (except maybe disable? idk). Can't remember who said in this thread that mewtwo was technical, but he isn't. It's mostly footsies some b&b combos and shadow ball.


I really like the air acceleration buff idea though (+ a fallspeed buff?), a tail hurtbox reduction is probably not gonna happen and a weight buff doesn't solve the issue.
This + teleport buff could make for pretty sweets mix ups, and would also be pretty fitting for the character.

I'm not crying for buffs though, I still enjoy playing him, his advantage and neutral are completely fine (and less braindead than in 4), and he can pull his weight in some matchups (slow characters who can't deal with shadow ball are yummy). It's just that there are too many matchups when I'm not gonna bother playing "I wanna be the guy" when I could just be running around with greninja and spamming safe confirms without having to play 5D chess everytime I get hit.

Also greninja is ridiculous.

 

[Nobie]

Well, I didn't expect to spark such a big discussion.

I'm just gonna correct some stuff.



Yeah I'm overall fine with having hurtboxes on tail attacks (although it makes fighting swordies a pain, + why does dk have intangible arms then lol). It"s pretty flavorful and gives the character a clear weakness.
The main issue comes from the hurtbox attached to the character. You just get hit by completely random stuff sometimes (never play m2 against inkling rofl you get buried from half the stage), get juggled easily, ledge roll is stupidly easy to hit, stuff like that.



Yeah sure I'm gonna teleport to the wolf/inkling/whatever swordie waiting below me, sounds cool. Zelda has more range and potential mixups due to the hitbox, Palu gets a lot of momentum, m2 just kinds of "woosh" and floats awkwardly, which makes it pretty hard to use this way. It's probably doable in some cases, but it's definitely not a reliable option. Confusion is cute but hey, by the time you finished it your opponent finished his jump and is ready to do another one (+ you still have to land). Shine stall works on fox because he is a fastfaller and can cover himself with reliable hitboxes (and also he is harder to hit).



Well sure, but his punish game is actually pretty mild for a glass canon. Strings don't really go beyond 3 hits, and he doesn't have any super broke kill confirm. Shadow Ball is broke though, and is definitely what keeps him alive right now (just watch any SDX set, it's shadow ball city).
I'm not saying that his neutral/advantage are bad, because they aren't. It's just that compared to Pichu, aka "I will get 30% from any (safe!) hit and I have like 4 ways to kill sub 100" and Fox who is randomly running around spamming buttons and confirming into an usmash which hits 3 screens away, he is pretty tame.

Also sure it's easy to say "git gud lol", but when the character has completely disappeared from the radar and when his only main is currently on a hiatus because he can't stand it anymore, it's not a bright future for the character. I don't really see him go higher as the meta evolves either, he doesn't have any tools which tell me "this is going to be more relevant as the players learn to use it" like shulk/duck hunt (except maybe disable? idk). Can't remember who said in this thread that mewtwo was technical, but he isn't. It's mostly footsies some b&b combos and shadow ball.


I really like the air acceleration buff idea though (+ a fallspeed buff?), a tail hurtbox reduction is probably not gonna happen and a weight buff doesn't solve the issue.
This + teleport buff could make for pretty sweets mix ups, and would also be pretty fitting for the character.

I'm not crying for buffs though, I still enjoy playing him, his advantage and neutral are completely fine (and less braindead than in 4), and he can pull his weight in some matchups (slow characters who can't deal with shadow ball are yummy). It's just that there are too many matchups when I'm not gonna bother playing "I wanna be the guy" when I could just be running around with greninja and spamming safe confirms without having to play 5D chess everytime I get hit.

Also greninja is ridiculous.

As much as I would loooove an air acceleration buff for Mewtwo, I'm actually scared that it would be TOO good a buff. I know that sounds crazy, but if you buff its air acceleration on defense, you also buff its air acceleration on OFFENSE.

You want to talk about combos? Yeeeeesh.

 

[ARISTOS]

As much as I would loooove an air acceleration buff for Mewtwo, I'm actually scared that it would be TOO good a buff. I know that sounds crazy, but if you buff its air acceleration on defense, you also buff its air acceleration on OFFENSE.

You want to talk about combos? Yeeeeesh.

That's what I was thinking when I proposed the buff.

It patches up some of his weaknesses in a nuanced way while also extends his threat level in advantage, vs a pure weight buff which at best would be minor and doesn't really solve the problem.

It just all around makes the character crazier and opens up a ton of options. Have to be careful because M2's airspeed is super high so too much and you make sword puff but there's a sizable middle ground