Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[KakuCP9]

Emblem Lord fears nothing.

You're the kind of player that mashes DP when your opponent is plus on block aren't you?

 

[Emblem Lord]

Sometimes to gain respect you have to disrespect ya dig?

But overall no, I am pretty respectful when I play.

In a tight trap situation? You got it. I will take the mix-up and try to block.

Unlike these ****ing Yoshi mains. Most button pressonist ass players ever.

Plebs I swear.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Sometimes to gain respect you have to disrespect ya dig?

But overall no, I am pretty respectful when I play.

In a tight trap situation? You got it. I will take the mix-up and try to block.

Unlike these ****ing Yoshi mains. Most button pressonist *** players ever.

Plebs I swear.

Well to be fair..as someome tryimg out Yoshi. If you have a character who has generally quick and non-comittal buttons. Why would you try to use them to press advantage?

But seriously I am still on the fence on Yoshi. He had a decent showing at Frostbite..and well dont think he as good as ESAM thinks of course..and "potential" has basically become a meme at this point. But I think he is a high-tier, albeit maybe on the lower end.

He has gotten a lot of Qol improvements. But he still has the Smash 4 problem of actullay closing stocks. Even with his very strong up-air and bair. Ehh maybe he will be better if many top tiers end up getting nerfed

NOTE: please delete above post..I dont even know what happened there

 

[Today's Tom Sawyer]

Sometimes to gain respect you have to disrespect ya dig?

But overall no, I am pretty respectful when I play.

In a tight trap situation? You got it. I will take the mix-up and try to block.

Unlike these ****ing Yoshi mains. Most button pressonist *** players ever.

Plebs I swear.

Yoshi and C. Falcon began Smash meta history on similar trajectories. Sako/Wizzrobe-esque savanty characters. C. Falcon has held that archetype but Yoshi has become a mutant.

Plus

 

[|RK|]

A player in Top 33 gives me some hope for this character. The pre-release hype for him ended almost immediately ended once the game came out and everyone just kind of assumed that he's mid or low tier because his vertical recovery is trash and because his ground speed is slow. I actually think that he's being underrated and he is comparable to a combination of and .

He has attack power comparable to and their aerials and dash attack all share similar uses (with tending to be faster but weaker than which helps with combos at low %'s). However, his grounded moves and specials share more similarities to . I also think that, just because his recovery and speed are overall poor, doesn't mean he can't be viable. His Melee variant () shared similar issues of having pretty average speed and poor range and recovery but is still (arguably) viable. I personally think that he's a low high tier but we'll have to see how good he keeps doing throughout the coming months.

If we're counting Lui$ Doc, then L has a Kirby & a Puff.

 

[Heracr055]

Emblem Lord fears nothing.

I know what you fear: when old school footsie characters are given tools that throw that foundation of neutral interaction skill out the window (kind of like what happened to Smash 4 Marth post-patch, thus making them as spammable as the Yoshi you mentioned earlier). At least the Shotos are safe (for now)

 

[Sean²]

Nothing tilts me more than being hit by a Yoshi down air. He should be top tier because half way through it I'm ready to dive head first off the stage 3 times.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Nothing tilts me more than being hit by a Yoshi down air. He should be top tier because half way through it I'm ready to dive head first off the stage 3 times.

What is funny, is that it was kinda nerfed from Samsh 4. You know how it can do like 30% or more..like even 50 on big characters if he gets you with it while your in the air...well back in smash 4 it did that damage on the ground, in the on mars you name it.

Then again, I dont think it could kill in Smash 4 at high percents like it can now

 

[Deleted member]

Sometimes to gain respect you have to disrespect ya dig?

But overall no, I am pretty respectful when I play.

In a tight trap situation? You got it. I will take the mix-up and try to block.

Unlike these ****ing Yoshi mains. Most button pressonist *** players ever.

Plebs I swear.

Yoshi mains have nothing on me im the type of person that knocks someone out of recovery range hits them with Pk Thunder and Dair's them

 

[MG_3989]

Yoshi mains have nothing on me im the type of person that knocks someone out of recovery range hits them with Pk Thunder and Dair's them

It’s not like Yoshi can’t **** with Ness tho, he out aerials him which few characters do and Yoshi bomb makes it hard to PKT juggle him or uair him. Not that we can’t punish Yoshi bomb tho. Ness definitely has his advantages against Yoshi as far as combos and edgeguarding and killing go but Ness’s disadvantage is bad against Yoshi. Plus those eggs are really annoying. I’m not saying he dominates Ness but there are some issues

Also Yoshi dair while in egg or right after egg cracks is just stupid

 

[Zinith]

What's with the Yoshi ****talk all of a sudden?

 

[Deleted member]

What's with the Yoshi ****talk all of a sudden?

Because low key no one likes him

 

[MG_3989]

Because low key no one likes him

Is Yoshi the new Ness?

 

[TimG57867]

With Frostbite 2019 come again, Top 128 gives a lot of colorful takeaways.

Referencing page 13 of the Tournament Results thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/page-13

• Goblin managed to get 13th with a solo while Nightmare went out at 65th him. I feel Roy often gets overshadowed in the swordsman discussion so it's great to see our boy putting on good showings too.
• That said, his echo has also been falling to the wayside of discussion a tad after not quite fulfilling his crazy post release hype. But like Roy, Chrom is also still swinging and then some with Shoyo James getting a sweet 9th placing and Blank not too far behind with a 33rd placing and Mufasa securing a 49th placing. Like Inkling, he may have had some hype backlash but we can't sleep on him just yet!
• 's placement in the meta has certainly become polarizing as of late and it's commonly agreed ESAM's carrying the character once again. But surprisingly, not only did ESAM not crack Top 48 this time, but he wasn't even the highest placing Pikachu either! This time the honor goes to DM who managed to get 33rd! Pichu has clearly been hindering Pikachu's results so it's interesting to not only see other people placing high with him but outplacing the widely accepted master too.
• It's been said earlier in the thread that the Western meta is a good deal behind his advancement in Japan and his placings at Frostbite actually reflect this. Akashic, Jw, and Plup (who also used Megaman), all got 49th while Lea placed several tiers above them at 9th. I really do hope Venia can start taking it to majors soon as I feel this is telling of just how far the has (and needs) to go in the US.
• It seems any fears of fading off with Leffen putting Pokemon Trainer on the bench at this time were premature as Wishes scored a spectacular 9th placing while Ned didn't fair too much worse at 17th. Pokemon Trainer definitely tacks more effort and brain power than a lot of other meta picks atm but seems that effort can most certainly be rewarded for now.
• Yeti wasn't able to replicate his Genesis success, going out at 97th. But despite that, had a solid showing all around. Sharing 97th with him is smasher001 while at 49th you have Scatt and Morpheaus breaking in. And similar to Greninja, the highest placing one of all is a couple tiers above via their Japanese pro Kameme at 25th. It's hard to say how much the 2.0.0 changes hindered him, but he definitely still looks like a worthy pick if just off this tourney's results.
• Even with all of 's improvements in this game most will tell you is still generally better. So it's quite interesting Dr. Mario effectively managed to outplace all the relevant Mario's at this event thanks to Luis. While Luis managed another 33rd placing after Genesis, the highest placing Marios ended up being Dark Wizzy and Ninja at 65th while super dan and Fons got 97th. It definitely seems 2 Mario versions are much more competitive than they ever were in SSB4. Look forward to seeing if any other Dr. Mario's manage to put out similar success.
• Speaking of semi clones, the gang haven't had as stellar performance as Genesis, especially with Salem having moved on to Snake. Still they're far from totally MIA with Ross getting 65th with both Link and Young Link and BlaP getting 97th spot with solo Link and Colinines and Biddy getting 97th and I am confident they'll have better showings in the future.
• Opinions on have certainly been on the upswing and Marss securing 17th this time around primarily using her while also getting 25th with similar usage of her at Genesis is definitely good to see. And he's not the only ZSS present either. At 65th we got Juice with a solo ZSS along with tumultus who managed a 97th placing with her. Right now her meta presence is still a far cry from her SSB4 prominence but she's far, far, far from not being a threat in the current meta. Hope she continues to gain traction.
• EDIT: I guess it's only fair I note this. Similar to Ness, is a character who has seen noticeable improvement but is also one people are understandably hesitant to jump on the support train for seeing his decline over time in SSB4. But at the very least our lovable dino is cracking heads with eggs atm. Meme and Suarez both got 25th with him, top 32 placings! And go several tiers down and you got Yikaur, seth, and meatbeef showing up at 97th. A great performance overall that definitely puts respect on Yoshi's name.
• For once MkLeo wasn't putting on his back. Beyond his 2nd placing, you also have Ryuga stepping up with a 9th placing, Cookietic getting 49th, and Hawk and San getting 97th. Nice to see the other Ike's finally popping out.
• didn't see any success quite up to snuff with the headway Sonix made at Genesis but he's still putting on nice showings. Sonido has maintained performance by securing 49th this time with SuperGirl Kels not far behind at 65th and True Blue rounding it off with a 97th placing. Similar to ZSS he isn't as meta as he used to be but he definitely is still looking formidable with his mains finding new juice all the time so underestimate him and his nasty Homing Attack at your own risk.
• In a similar vein as Sonic, despite being in a weird spot, still proves to be a relevant threat. Fatality managed a wonderous 17th placing with mostly him while NickC got 65th and SethSastional walking home with 97th. Hopefully this is a sign of Falcon's Ultimate meta starting to shape itself. Fatality's confidence on Twitter if nothing else is a good sign.
• Beyond all this, we got a lot of individual folk/duos keeping a lot of characters on the board and helping to freshen things up amid the otherwise prolific performances of meta picks across Top 128. Tweek was the only present but clearly the only one needed. may not be running the show like many initially felt but can a 5th placing from Cosmos (and 97th placing from Rags) really be discounted? Even with Sinji taking a break from traveling, Tea holds it down for the fort and then some with a splendid 17th placing and notably upsetting Dabuz. Gaackt maintains his position in the conversation by getting the PSI boy a good 33rd placing. SDX performed similarly with . Elegant, even with the 2.0.0 changes, managed to improve upon his Genesis 6 performance by getting a 49th placing with . Despite her issues, Geist managed a 33rd placing with and Tamim getting 65th. Komota has given his most impressive Ultimate showing yet with 65th placing and nearly upsetting Void while also putting Kirby's new F Tilt to good use. Fellow borb proves to still have something going for him in the meta with Abadongo getting 25th primarily using him. Hikaru with a 49th placing and Runes with a 65th placing have helped keep in conversation. While not exactly a placing that screams secret top tier, Darkshad still made a respectable showing with at 65th. Magister continues to lead the pack with a 65th placing. With a lower placing than his Genesis performance it's tough to assess the true scope of the impact of his buffs but regardless it's cool that he continues to keep this sleeper pick in the conversation. Inversely, despite awkward changes (or downright nerfs), Peli, Tsu, and Ozone have managed to secure 65th with and respectively. Other notworthy mentions include Linus and drn getting 97th with , Osiris getting 97th with , Pickpoket getting a 97th placing, Litany making a 97th placing with and Advo and PsychoMoko getting 49th and 97th respectively with who I must say seems to have an edge on in performance atm.

Overall, this has definitely been a swell tournament for getting results. Common picks are definitely becoming defined but one way or another diversity still seems pretty good and I loved seeing the counterpick play developing and parries becoming utilized at top level more and more.

That said, as far as diversity goes it doesn't seem to be all good news. Despite another objectively good placing, SDX the current bastion of Mewtwo at the moment seems to have hit the limit of what he's willing to put up with. He'll apparently be taking a break from Mewtwo for a while and unless Mewtwo undergoes some kind of changes during his break it doesn't seem he'll be returning anytime soon. And while Kirby has finally put on a decent showing at massive tourney, things don't seem all sparkly for his more aerodynamic counterpart. Hungrybox states that this will probably be his last tournament maining . As these 2 have some of most notable placings for their respective characters at this time with SDX taking a break being a particularly harsh blow. I can only hope others step up to fill the voids.

All in all though this was definitely a cool tourney and makes me further amped to see what develops in the meta from here until Joker's release.

 

[Deleted member]

Is Yoshi the new Ness?

No they hate Yoshi but they don't disrespect him

 

[MG_3989]

No they hate Yoshi but they don't disrespect him

True but I don’t wanna start this again lol

 

[Deleted member]

True but I don’t wanna start this again lol

Ya lets stop lol

 

[Zinith]

With Frostbite 2019 come again, Top 128 gives a lot of colorful takeaways.

Referencing page 13 of the Tournament Results thread: https://smashboards.com/threads/ssbu-tournament-results.464865/page-13

• Goblin managed to get 13th with a solo while Nightmare went out at 65th him. I feel Roy often gets overshadowed in the swordsman discussion so it's great to see our boy putting on good showings too.
• That said, his echo has also been falling to the wayside of discussion a tad after not quite fulfilling his crazy post release hype. But like Roy, Chrom is also still swinging and then some with Shoyo James getting a sweet 9th placing and Blank not too far behind with a 33rd placing and Mufasa securing a 49th placing. Like Inkling, he may have had some hype backlash but we can't sleep on him just yet!
• 's placement in the meta has certainly become polarizing as of late and it's commonly agreed ESAM's carrying the character once again. But surprisingly, not only did ESAM not crack Top 48 this time, but he wasn't even the highest placing Pikachu either! This time the honor goes to DM who managed to get 33rd! Pichu has clearly been hindering Pikachu's results so it's interesting to not only see other people placing high with him but outplacing the widely accepted master too.
• It's been said earlier in the thread that the Western meta is a good deal behind his advancement in Japan and his placings at Frostbite actually reflect this. Akashic, Jw, and Plup (who also used Megaman), all got 49th while Lea placed several tiers above them at 9th. I really do hope Venia can start taking it to majors soon as I feel this is telling of just how far the has (and needs) to go in the US.
• It seems any fears of fading off with Leffen putting Pokemon Trainer on the bench at this time were premature as Wishes scored a spectacular 9th placing while Ned didn't fair too much worse at 17th. Pokemon Trainer definitely tacks more effort and brain power than a lot of other meta picks atm but seems that effort can most certainly be rewarded for now.
• Yeti wasn't able to replicate his Genesis success, going out at 97th. But despite that, had a solid showing all around. Sharing 97th with him is smasher001 while at 49th you have Scatt and Morpheaus breaking in. And similar to Greninja, the highest placing one of all is a couple tiers above via their Japanese pro Kameme at 25th. It's hard to say how much the 2.0.0 changes hindered him, but he definitely still looks like a worthy pick if just off this tourney's results.
• Even with all of 's improvements in this game most will tell you is still generally better. So it's quite interesting Dr. Mario effectively managed to outplace all the relevant Mario's at this event thanks to Luis. While Luis managed another 33rd placing after Genesis, the highest placing Marios ended up being Dark Wizzy and Ninja at 65th while super dan and Fons got 97th. It definitely seems 2 Mario versions are much more competitive than they ever were in SSB4. Look forward to seeing if any other Dr. Mario's manage to put out similar success.
• Speaking of semi clones, the gang haven't had as stellar performance as Genesis, especially with Salem having moved on to Snake. Still they're far from totally MIA with Ross getting 65th with both Link and Young Link and Colinines and Biddy getting 97th and I am confident they'll have better showings in the future.
• Opinions on have certainly been on the upswing and Marss securing 17th this time around primarily using her while also getting 25th with similar usage of her is definitely good to see. And he's not the only ZSS present either. At 65th we got Juice with a solo ZSS along with tumultus who managed a 97th placing with her. Right now her meta presence is still a far cry from her SSB4 prominence but she's far, far, far from not being a threat in the current meta. Hope she continues to gain traction.
• For once MkLeo wasn't putting on his back. Beyond his 2nd placing, you also have Ryuga stepping up with a 9th placing, Cookietic getting 49th, and Hawk and San getting 97th. Nice to see the other Ike's finally popping out.
• didn't see any success quite up to snuff with the headway Sonix made at Genesis but he's still putting on nice showings. Sonido has maintained performance by securing 49th this time with SuperGirl Kels not far behind at 65th and True Blue rounding it off with a 97th placing. Similar to ZSS he isn't as meta as he used to be but he definitely is still looking formidable with his mains finding new juice all the time so underestimate him and his nasty Homing Attack at your own risk.
• In a similar vein as Sonic, despite being in a weird spot, still proves to be a relevant threat. Fatality managed a wonderous 17th placing with mostly him while NickC got 65th and SethSastional walking home with 97th. Hopefully this is a sign of Falcon's Ultimate meta starting to shape itself. Fatality's confidence on Twitter if nothing else is a good sign.
• Beyond all this, we got a lot of individual folk/duos keeping a lot of characters on the board and helping to freshen things up amid the otherwise prolific performances of meta picks across Top 128. was the only Wario present but clearly the only one needed. Even with Sinji taking a break from traveling, Tea holds it down for the fort and then some with a splendid 17th placing and notably upsetting Dabuz. Gaackt maintains his position in the conversation by getting the PSI boy a good 33rd placing. SDX performed similarly with . Elegant, even with the 2.0.0 changes, managed to improve upon his Genesis 6 performance by getting a 49th placing with . Despite her issues, Geist managed a 33rd placing with and Tamim getting 65th. Komota has given his most impressive Ultimate showing yet with 65th placing and nearly upsetting Void while also putting Kirby's new F Tilt to good use. Hikaru with a 49th placing and Runes with a 65th placing have helped keep in conversation. While not exactly a placing that screams secret top tier, Darkshad still made a respectable showing with at 65th. Magister continues to lead the pack with a 65th placing. With a lower placing than his Genesis performance it's tough to assess the true scope of the impact of his buffs but regardless it's cool that he continues to keep this sleeper pick in the conversation. Inversely, despite awkward changes (or downright nerfs), Peli, Tsu, and Ozone have managed to secure 65th with and respectively. Other notworthy mentions include Linus and drn getting 97th with , Osiris getting 97th with , and Advo and PsychoMoko getting 49th and 97th respectively with who I must say seems to have an edge on in performance atm.

Overall, this has definitely been a swell tournament for getting results. Common picks are definitely becoming defined but one way or another diversity still seems pretty good and I loved seeing the counterpick play developing and parries becoming utilized at top level more and more.

That said, as far as diversity goes it doesn't seem to be all good news. Despite another objectively good placing, SDX the current bastion of Mewtwo at the moment seems to have hit the limit of what he's willing to put up with. He'll apparently be taking a break from Mewtwo for a while and unless Mewtwo undergoes some kind of changes during his break it doesn't seem he'll be returning anytime soon. And while Kirby has finally put on a decent showing at massive tourney, things don't seem all sparkly for his more aerodynamic counterpart. Hungrybox states that this will probably be his last tournament maining . As these 2 have some of most notable placings for their respective characters at this time with SDX taking a break being a particularly harsh blow. I can only hope others step up to fill the voids.

All in all though this was definitely a cool tourney and makes me further amped to see what develops in the meta from here until Joker's release.

Two mains also got 25th place I should add...

 

[Deleted member]

Prior to Patch 2.0 wasn't Samus objectively worse Dark Samus?

 

[ZephyrZ]

People just hate fighting characters with good buttons.
Or good zoning.
Or good tools in general.

No seriously though I've seen a lot of complaining about a lot of different characters in this thread. I've got my own personal demons who I hate fighting ( and even believe it or not) but I think we should be above that sort of complaining here. Just talking about why you don't like a character isn't actually productive to the metagame at all. Analyzing their strengths, weaknesses, and match up interactions as a whole is.

 

[MG_3989]

People just hate fighting characters with good buttons.
Or good zoning.
Or good tools in general.

No seriously though I've seen a lot of complaining about a lot of different characters in this thread. I've got my own personal demons who I hate fighting ( and even believe it or not) but I think we should be above that sort of complaining here. Just talking about why you don't like a character isn't actually productive to the metagame at all. Analyzing their strengths, weaknesses, and match up interactions as a whole is.

I agree with this 100%. Zoners are meant to zone and I’ve actually learned to have fun with fighting characters I used to find annoying because every character has strengths and weaknesses and most projectile heavy characters lack CQC options compared to rushdown and sword characters and it’s kind of just a game of reading their projectiles, avoiding them, and using all your movement options to get in and once you’re in they’re usually scared (Olimar is Olimar tho and some pseudo zoners like YL are good at CQC). It just makes the game more interesting

 

[Gérard Majax]

SDX just announced on twitter that he is retiring until he finds a character that fits him.

Things aren't looking bright for , he was kind of his last rep.
What saddens me the most is that mewtwo's moveset is completely functional, even more so than in smash 4 where m2 just relied on a few broken moves (nair, fair, dtilt, shadow ball) to win the game. He still has reasonable strings, a fantastic edgegarding game, good ledgetrapping, and shadow ball is as good as ever (which means it's completly broke lol, you can 0->60 in 3 hits reliably). Save for a few oddities like usmash being terrible for no reasons and confusion being a bad reflector (why is it so slow, it's ok as a command grab though), he is pretty well rounded offensively (heck even D I S A B L E is useful in this game).


Aaaaand then you lose neutral because you are way too tall and your tail has a hurtbox for some reasons, and oh boy you are in for a ride. You can't challenge any hitbox (except with fair), you can't land because his fallspeed is so low, and you get the luxurious privilege to be both easy to combo and light.
Characters usually have only one of these (heavies, Pichu). Except Fox, but his ground game is so bonker that it makes up for it. Mewtwo's neutral and advantage, while not bad by any mean, are definitely not worth the pain he has to face everytime he gets in disadvantage. Also did I mention that his double jump is arguably the worst in the game to escape combos?
His recovery is okay I guess, but it's the worse of the 3 teleports by far and the ledge isn't a fun place to be because roll and jump are both hazardous options (jump you still can't land, roll has waaaay to many hurtboxes thanks to the tail).

I get what nintendo was trying to do when they gave him a tail hurtbox (roleplay and stuff), but it is just not working right now, and I don' t think he is ever gonna be good with it (unless they give him ridiculous tools to compensate, but eh). If they still want to keep it for flavor reasons, buff his weight, buff his teleport (could be really cool/fitting if he could land with it), or buff his ledge options.

Also please fix usmash, I shouldn't be trading with a link nair when I correctly guess a short hop smh.

 

[ATH_]

SDX just announced on twitter that he is retiring until he finds a character that fits him.

Things aren't looking bright for :ultm2:, he was kind of his last rep.
What saddens me the most is that mewtwo's moveset is completely functional, even more so than in smash 4 where m2 just relied on a few broken moves (nair, fair, dtilt, shadow ball) to win the game. He still has reasonable strings, a fantastic edgegarding game, good ledgetrapping, and shadow ball is as good as ever (which means it's completly broke lol, you can 0->60 in 3 hits reliably). Save for a few oddities like usmash being terrible for no reasons and confusion being a bad reflector (why is it so slow, it's ok as a command grab though), he is pretty well rounded offensively (heck even D I S A B L E is useful in this game).


Aaaaand then you lose neutral because you are way too tall and your tail has a hurtbox for some reasons, and oh boy you are in for a ride. You can't challenge any hitbox (except with fair), you can't land because his fallspeed is so low, and you get the luxurious privilege to be both easy to combo and light.
Characters usually have only one of these (heavies, Pichu). Except Fox, but his ground game is so bonker that it makes up for it. Mewtwo's neutral and advantage, while not bad by any mean, are definitely not worth the pain he has to face everytime he gets in disadvantage. Also did I mention that his double jump is arguably the worst in the game to escape combos?
His recovery is okay I guess, but it's the worse of the 3 teleports by far and the ledge isn't a fun place to be because roll and jump are both hazardous options (jump you still can't land, roll has waaaay to many hurtboxes thanks to the tail).

I get what nintendo was trying to do when they gave him a tail hurtbox (roleplay and stuff), but it is just not working right now, and I don' t think he is ever gonna be good with it (unless they give him ridiculous tools to compensate, but eh). If they still want to keep it for flavor reasons, buff his weight, buff his teleport (could be really cool/fitting if he could land with it), or buff his ledge options.

Also please fix usmash, I shouldn't be trading with a link nair when I correctly guess a short hop smh.

Funnily enough, right after reading this I had a bo3 with a Mewtwo online named Aang. I feel really bad for Mewtwo in this game. As Ike, it felt way too easy to juggle and catch Mewtwo for every mistake made. Could just be Ike too.

His tail being a hurtbox is so stupid. Felt like he was 3x bigger than his model suggests. Hoping for some solid changes in the future.

 

[PK Bash]

Let's not just brush Chrom and Shoyo James under the rug now.
This man lost in winners semis r1 pools then went and got 9th, beating BreaD from Canada, ESAM, Hikaru (3-0!), MuteAce, VoiD (!!) before losing to Nairo 3-2. He could have made top 8.
I'll say that again: he could have made top 8.

Say what you like about Chrom being overhyped, it was no doubt true in December/early January, but let's not just ignore this nutty run from probably his best (only?) dedicated player who actually put significant time into him and didn't drop him after week 1 or the nerf. Clearly there is something there.
Shoyo James definitely one to watch and Chrom could well burst on to people's radar again soon.

It’s not like Yoshi can’t **** with Ness tho, he out aerials him which few characters do and Yoshi bomb makes it hard to PKT juggle him or uair him. Not that we can’t punish Yoshi bomb tho. Ness definitely has his advantages against Yoshi as far as combos and edgeguarding and killing go but Ness’s disadvantage is bad against Yoshi. Plus those eggs are really annoying. I’m not saying he dominates Ness but there are some issues

Also Yoshi dair while in egg or right after egg cracks is just stupid

From one Ness player to another: Ness wins that matchup my guy. I can discuss it in DMs if you like. Not in this thread though... No-one wants to read that.

 

[Idon]

What'll be interesting to see is how the April Balance Patch + Joker will shift the meta. I've heard it reiterated multiple times that the Smash balancing team looks at top level tourneys in determining their nerfs, so it'll be interesting to see how things like MKLeo's Ike/Lucina and Tweek's Wario get affected. Hopefully some buffs bring characters into the spotlight and past common gatekeeper characters like Chrom.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Funnily enough, right after reading this I had a bo3 with a Mewtwo online named Aang. I feel really bad for Mewtwo in this game. As Ike, it felt way too easy to juggle and catch Mewtwo for every mistake made. Could just be Ike too.

His tail being a hurtbox is so stupid. Felt like he was 3x bigger than his model suggests. Hoping for some solid changes in the future.

you shouldn't feel bad about any character in this game unless they are , and maybe . Mewtwo and a great amount of the roster are in the limbo knows as high-mid tier, you can get results but you need to invest a large amount of work and if you mained him in smash 4 you need to rework your playstyle as well to many top players that isn't worth, SDX is know to play a defensive playstyle maybe he can pick a character that fits him like wolf or greninja.

In general players need to resolve their character crisis or they will start to fall begin, i know players like to joke about waiting for joker or future DLC to be broken to main them, but i think some of them secretly want another smash 4 cloud like character.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I personally think SDX is putting his Frostbite placement too harshly on himself. 33rd is not a bad placement, especially considering how many challenging opponents he had to encounter to get this far (plus beating Salem). He still has his 17th from Genesis he holds on too.

I am still pretty sick and tired on people dropping the ball with their characters when the game is literally released less than 3 months ago, especially with a character as technical as Mewtwo. There is barely any time to develop your character.

Good thing there are still dedicated players, or else we would have a metagame where only the top 20 is really represented. However, the issue with this is that SDX is THE Mewtwo dedicated player. With him dropping the character, there is literally no top player representing him, which is a shame, especially when you consider how many top players (like Dabuz and ESAM) are optimistic about him being a high tier.

 

[Emblem Lord]

Why play high tiers that take time, when you have top tiers that take less time?

I troll a lot and goof around, however what I am going to say is real.

The biggest issue for smash ultimate meta is that there are several top tiers that take less work, LESS dedication and inflict FAR less mental stress than characters in lower tiers. They are simply too strong for only needing good fundamentals to see results.

So if you want results the course of action is clear.

 

[Nah]

tbh I never got why people complain about Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox

It's a tail. It's a part of it's body. It makes sense for the thing to have a hurtbox (and it's not like the entire tail has a hurtbox either)

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I personally think SDX is putting his Frostbite placement too harshly on himself. 33rd is not a bad placement, especially considering how many challenging opponents he had to encounter to get this far (plus beating Salem). He still has his 17th from Genesis he holds on too.

I am still pretty sick and tired on people dropping the ball with their characters when the game is literally released less than 3 months ago, especially with a character as technical as Mewtwo. There is barely any time to develop your character.

Good thing there are still dedicated players, or else we would have a metagame where only the top 20 is really represented. However, the issue with this is that SDX is THE Mewtwo dedicated player. With him dropping the character, there is literally no top player representing him, which is a shame, especially when you consider how many top players (like Dabuz and ESAM) are optimistic about him being a high tier.

They can be as optimistic as they want to be but that doesn't change how the character feels when you play them. I understand why SDX doesn't like m2 in this game he's really lame. But that's what happens when the system changes takes a dump all over your character. *shrugs*

They should increase m2 weight at the very least if he could take a hit all the stuff about his tail being a hitbox is somewhat mitigated.

Also m2 is a mid tier he's not a high tier and he's not some sleeper powerhouse he's a giant floaty hitbox that does way to early and doesn't have enough of a reward to justify it.

 

[ARISTOS]

tbh I never got why people complain about Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox

It's a tail. It's a part of it's body. It makes sense for the thing to have a hurtbox (and it's not like the entire tail has a hurtbox either)

Yeah when they took it out in Project M it ended up being hella problematic (in addition to a lot of dumb choices made in 3.0).

I'd like to see M2 get an air accel buff instead of a weight buff

 

[Rocketjay8]

tbh I never got why people complain about Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox

It's a tail. It's a part of it's body. It makes sense for the thing to have a hurtbox (and it's not like the entire tail has a hurtbox either)

Because Ridley and Charizard don't have this problem and light weight issues. It just makes his huge hurtbox problem even worse for no reason. Especially of you get hit from retreating from am opponent because they hit my stupid tail. Or space your bair correctly but trade anyways because tail.

 

[Jotun873]

I'd like to see M2 get an air accel buff instead of a weight buff

I heavily disagree. Mewtwo is tied for 4th lightest in the game with the hurtbox of most heavies. A few units more would do him good.

Air accel is fine imho. Mewtwo has never been super speedy in the air because he doeant really need it. His Nair has always been used mostly for combos and his Bair amd Uair have good reach. The only air attack that could use it would be Fair.

Weight would do more in the long run.

Edit: or tail intangibility during attacks like most of bowsers limb attacks

 

[ARISTOS]

I heavily disagree. Mewtwo is tied for 4th lightest in the game with the hurtbox of most heavies. A few units more would do him good.

Air accel is fine imho. Mewtwo has never been super speedy in the air because he doeant really need it. His Nair has always been used mostly for combos and his Bair amd Uair have good reach. The only air attack that could use it would be Fair.

Weight would do more in the long run.

Edit: or tail intangibility during attacks like most of bowsers limb attacks

Weight buffs would be helpful but it still doesn't deal with the fact that he gets trapped easily by hitboxes because of his huge hurtbox/poor air movement. An air accel buff allows him to weave much more nimbly in disadvantage/allows him to use his incredible air speed in a much better manner. I feel it also ties in better with his status as a glass cannon rather than simply patching up his weakness.

I believe M2 already has some intangibility on his tail during attacks?

 

[Rocketjay8]

Weight buffs would be helpful but it still doesn't deal with the fact that he gets trapped easily by hitboxes because of his huge hurtbox/poor air movement. An air accel buff allows him to weave much more nimbly in disadvantage/allows him to use his incredible air speed in a much better manner. I feel it also ties in better with his status as a glass cannon rather than simply patching up his weakness.

I believe M2 already has some intangibility on his tail during attacks?

People wouldn't be complaining about their spaced bair trading with everything and die at 50% if his tail has intangibility for attacks.

 

[Sean²]

Why play high tiers that take time, when you have top tiers that take less time?

I troll a lot and goof around, however what I am going to say is real.

The biggest issue for smash ultimate meta is that there are several top tiers that take less work, LESS dedication and inflict FAR less mental stress than characters in lower tiers. They are simply too strong for only needing good fundamentals to see results.

So if you want results the course of action is clear.

I drafted a post on this topic yesterday, but the thread veered in a totally different direction by the time I finished it and I thought it would have been awkward to just blurt it out.

Gone are the days of sitting in your bedroom for hours upon hours grinding out matchups and tech skill with a niche character you enjoy playing. Now come the days of high stakes competition and high profile sponsors. People stopped caring about any one person being the best at any given character some time ago, it’s about winning fast and as often as possible now. You’re getting performance reviews from a company you work for now, not just bodying locals in your hometown. You need a win now character to keep up.

This is the first time where a playerbase moved almost in its entirety from one game to a new one in Smash history with multi-million dollar companies already backing the top players, or at least eyeing up the competition from the get go. So I’m fearing that the already conceived top tiers may continue to get pushed, but all the ones that keep getting touted with “potential” will get snubbed in the long run. With top players not wanting to touch them beyond friendlies, they may be left to players who may not have the same exorbitant amount of time or energy for Smash to develop them.

Salem took a big gamble on Link, which is respectable. But he is a character that’s already showing that it takes more work to play him optimally than who all you’ve seen in grand finals of the last two super majors. Many would probably say there’s no reason to play Link when Snake exists. I know Liquid has been super lenient with the talent they support, lucky for him, but I can’t imagine that some of the other big teams would be tolerant of middling results for long.

I’m hoping it will balance out a bit more later on and that most of this is still just new game hype.

Edit: I guess I should add my context here...is that lower level players still like to follow in the footsteps of higher level players and parrot their arguments on certain things without understanding why besides the fact that “so and so agrees with this, you’re not better than so and so, why should I listen to you?” It’s a big echo chamber out there with a few figureheads blasting their megaphones down them. If anyone doesn’t believe me, check out some of the Smash subreddits sometime. The hivemind is real.

 

[KamikazePotato]

I was more impressed with Shoyo James than anyone else in Frostbite. Dude made recovering with Chrom look easy

 

[Repli.Cant]

tbh I never got why people complain about Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox

It's a tail. It's a part of it's body. It makes sense for the thing to have a hurtbox (and it's not like the entire tail has a hurtbox either)

Thing is, all the other characters with tails don't have this kind of thing. Most of their tails still lack a hurtbox, then mewtwo walks in with his giant pool noodle and screams if anyone touches and then dies at 50% because he's one of the lightest characters in the game.

It doesn't help him in the slightest and makes playing the character feel terrible because the tail makes him have a much larger hitbox. Mewtwo can't land at all, still gets juggled despite his weight, then if manages to land, he has to deal with his disadvantage, which isn't good in the slightest.

If he doesn't get the hurtbox reduced, other tails should suffer the same hurtbox decision, and Mewtwo should get a weight increase to compensate. His tail extends for almost every animation and makes his hurtbox like 50% taller (I think that's how math works? I'm not sure, don't trust me with numbers). I almost love Mewtwo in this game, but the tail is just really, really bad.

 

[J0eyboi]

tbh I never got why people complain about Mewtwo's tail having a hurtbox

It's a tail. It's a part of it's body. It makes sense for the thing to have a hurtbox (and it's not like the entire tail has a hurtbox either)

Because what makes sense does not make good games. Mewtwo's tail hurtbox makes moving a liability. If you are facing your opponent and dash backwards as Mewtwo, your hurtbox will be closer to your opponent than it was when you were facing towards him for something like the first 10 frames. Walking and jumping while facing away are even worse. This is somewhat mitigated by Mewtwo's tail being in the Z-axis much of the time, but this is nowhere near as consistent as it should be, resulting in your tail occasionally getting clipped, punishing you for moving.

This is the definition of anti-fun. A character who randomly punishes you for utilising a basic game function, especially one as integral as movement, isn't going to be enjoyable to play. It's also not good for balance (Mewtwo's **** hurtbox making his movement bad is basically what makes him bottom tier in Melee). "Does it make sense" should not really be what the designers consider when making a cat fetus clone who can ****ing teleport.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I literally like how the opinion of Mewtwo in this thread simply transformed from "this character is good, just different" to "this character needs a buff" after Frostbite. I feel like the character has some room to grow in advantage, and his weaknesses, although does impact the character, is getting a bit overblown.

The big thing everyone is bringing up is the Mewtwo tail hitbox increase. The weakness, although can be annoying from to time, isn't as a big issue as people think. Mewtwo's tail in his run animation is no where near as stretched out or non-disjointed as in Melee, which that game is also more movement based than in Ultimate. Getting out of Mewtwo's dash because of the tail hitbox doesn't really occur that often (at least from what I have seen). Also, the complaining that Mewtwo is simply going to get hit by swinging his tail only really applies if you think hitbox trading happens all the time. His tail still has disjoint, and not all of his attacks actually use his tail.

The other point is that Mewtwo cannot land. This is blatantly false. Although Mewtwo does have some issues landing, he has some ways to mix up his landings. Confusion still stalls him in midair, and he can use Teleport to force the opponent to predict his landing, especially on stages with platforms. The fact that Mewtwo's warp is the fastest of the three in terms of startup helps too.

I am not saying these two weaknesses should be written off, but I think people here are overexaggerating those two weaknesses. I also think people are jumping the gun that Mewtwo needs buffs. It is too early to tell.