Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Nysyr]

Mildly entertaining seeing people try to put Lucario in a tier list when its pretty clear no-one has any idea about the character. Kind of the poster boy of SSBU tier lists, too many characters to have knowledge of, and no point separating the middle/bottom of the pack out.

 

[MapleBeasts]

Sounds like a top 5 character to be honest, it'll be interesting to see what the future will hold and if more people will pick up Greninja. I'm a bit worried the balance team will hit characters who do well in the early meta and ignore the characters who are secret bosses (such as Shulk and Greninja). I'm hoping they'll wait a bit with heavy nerfs and let the meta and counter-play develop a bit more first.

I'm of the opinion that the Frog is top 5 looking strictly at toolset. He's one of the most mobile characters in the game. He has good combo potential at both early and later percents with dthrow, dtilt, dash attack, nair confirms, drag down uairs, jab resets etc. Dtilt and dash attack in particular are absurd kill confirms with usmash. He has good recovery that can be mixed up, and one of the most well rounded matchup spreads in the game. I would say his biggest issues are his relative light weight and terrible Oos options, but even then the latter is not really a huge problem because of his mobility and ability to control the neutral game with shurikens.

 

[Xfire]

Mildly entertaining seeing people try to put Lucario in a tier list when its pretty clear no-one has any idea about the character. Kind of the poster boy of SSBU tier lists, too many characters to have knowledge of, and no point separating the middle/bottom of the pack out.

This whole tier list thing has gotten me thinking about what clear criteria these players have? There's placed in nearly the top tiers, but I have yet to see major results from him (either that, or there's something I'm unaware of). I don't doubt he's strong; the buff to his aerial game really helped him to space out and be technical around his opponent, plus the Monado arts made him more flexible. He has great potential, but so far, not one notable player has shown his strengths against others.

Maybe he's like the "Yoshimitsu" of Smash Bros; crazy game plan with amazing players, but said players with no/bare interest in tourneys. I don't know, it's still early to tell.

 

[NotLiquid]

I was hesitant to say anything about Olimar back during Genesis 6 because truthfully despite his sheer abundance I wasn't sure how to feel about him yet. I think after Frostbite though, I feel fairly confident in saying that his current iteration is probably the best character in the game. Insane DPS, Pikmin plucking is instant, a frame 1 combo breaker, priority and frame data is straight up bananas, a recovery that's harder to punish than it looks, an obscenely stupid up smash that would make envious, can get kill throws, small frame, good mobility, etc. This character is everything people hate about pace-dictating characters like Inkling and Snake, combined with the offensive pressure of characters like spacies. There's nothing that instills fear more in your opponent than just pushing buttons and throwing out Pikmin. If there's any character that's going to ensure swordies to keep being ahead of the meta, I think it's going to be Olimar. If he's not the best character, he's at least going to occupy a similar niche that Brawl-ICs did where he's likely to become the gatekeeping villain based on his kit.

That being said, rejoice Belmont fans - you're looking like a hard counter to a top tier, even setting aside a few uncharacteristic flubs by Shuton. Every single time I feel we've seen the last of the Belmonts they come back to kick some hide, as if they caught a whiff of Dracula's resurrection. I still think these are some potential high tier candidates that are being slept on, even overlooking some of their dismal flaws. Both Whoophee and Shuton have been putting in the work with them.

I think it goes without saying by now that - despite falling short in Top 48 overall - Japan is on that secret sauce when it comes to exposing the meta. First it was propelling Wolf into becoming the new hotness, and while I don't expect Greninja to be as popular due to the higher barrier of entry, I've been made into a firm believer. Y'all win, frog friends. Let's just hope the Smash 4 balancing meme doesn't apply to Ultimate as well.

Cosmos keeps pushing the ceiling for this character and his own play. Considering Tweek has been a demon both in and out of bracket for him, I think it's insanely commendable that he almost made a comeback in Game 5. I feel like people don't really talk about Inkling that much anymore after the release of the game and the initial impressions overestimating her, in a sense that it's seemingly just assumed that she's got the ubiquity in representation to take it for granted - when in reality both Genesis 6 and Frostbite only had a single solo main in Top 64, especially now that Abadango is back to co-maining Meta Knight, while Wishes and dyr have dropped the character completely. It's pretty unfortunate considering how insane this character is to watch and how they're still extremely viable.

Surprisingly absent in Top 8! Outside of several pocketing attempts by MKLeo and Tweek anyway - but no less highly in demand when looking throughout Top 48. It does bear repeating at least in the case of Wolf that right now people are going to gravitate towards an easy to play character in a game of 70 matchups, and expectedly enough in a post-Genesis 6 world, Frostbite is the first tournament where that's started to take shape. Let's see if it will take.

The talk about Pac-Man being exponentially buffed and a high-tier contender took shorter to materialize than I expected. Melon must be rejoicing.

Anyway, bring on Summit.

 

[Blue Banana]

NotLiquid Just want to clarify that super armor on whistle starts on frame 2, not frame 1.

 

[MG_3989]

Zelda did not get any changes in the 2.0.0 patch. But good job to the Zelda mains sticking with her.

Ven really impresses me. If he didn’t have FOW in Vegas which Ness is a bad matchup for Zelda and FOW is most likely a top 50 or better player he’d be winning Vegas every week. That’s pretty impressive with a character people think of as low-mid or I’ve even heard bottom tier

After watching Frostbite I legit think Greninja is a top 5 character. He has every tool he needs, confirms, combos, good aerials, a very good projectile, and extremely good movement

 

[PK Gaming]

It's good that people are finally coming around to Olimar being overtly problematic in a way that's almost impossible to ignore.

He's one of the few Smash character that outright needs a major overhaul instead of a few key smart tweaks imo.

 

[Rizen]

A few other things to take away from Frostbite:
are very much a high, if not top, tier threat. IDK which is better after Chrom's nerf since Roy has Uair confirms.
Anyone still doubt ?
None of the Links preformed well; you only start to see them going down to the top 100. With Salem using Snake and Tweek favoring Wolf over YL they don't have top-player representation. If they are high tier, and none are top tier, they're on the lower end. I'm confident characters like Ike are better.

 

[MG_3989]

A few other things to take away from Frostbite:
are very much a high, if not top, tier threat. IDK which is better after Chrom's nerf since Roy has Uair confirms.
Anyone still doubt ?
None of the Links preformed well; you only start to see them going down to the top 100. With Salem using Snake and Tweek favoring Wolf over YL they don't have top-player representation. If they are high tier, and none are top tier, they're on the lower end. I'm confident characters like Ike are better.

I’ve been playing a lot of YL lately and I’ve noticed that he struggles against a lot of top tier threats and characters that out range him. His zoning and combos are really strong but the main problem I’ve been having with YL is killing. The only ways I’ve been able to reliably kill is bomb/boomerang to fair confirm at the edge at at least 110% and if I don’t hit that I have to wait till about 140-160% to hit a Nair. I’ve also got kills off of random dairs and a few up b combos but that’s inconsistent. Other than that all my kills are from edgeguarding

Sometimes I’ll rack up like 150% and be at 80% and die and that’s a big problem. That could be my inexperience with the character but I’m hitting his confirms well. I think if YL could kill more successfully he’d be a top of high tier/top tier character. Giving him a kill throw would do wonders

 

[Emblem Lord]

What do you think about Ken? Is he as bad as people seem to think he is? Or is he perhaps a potential high tier?

Who is "people"?

You mean people that have not experimented with the character or can not express any real coherency on why he is bad?

As I have made apparent many times in the past, I will never shout from the mountains about how strong any character is that does not have results. But when it comes to analyzing supposed low tiers, always look at the arguments presented. And for Ken in particular, there really are not any valid ones when you look at any player's opinion of him. Not to make fun of ESAM, but he basically said Ken cannot bair.....which is a lie. But even if it wasn't, does Ken need to bair? He made a statement based on Ken's template (Ryu) from a previous game. What does that have to do with Ken in this game?

So to keep it real, I can't say high tier because he has no results at a regional level.

You have a strange character who is imo as hard to play as Greninja with a massive skill floor that even once you gain mastery over the basics, has no easy way to contend with alot of the craziness of the rest of the cast. Instead of relying on standard fighting fire with fire (fighting massive hitboxes and jank with your own massive hitboxes and jank) you actually have to take it back to the basics. Relying on movement, positioning and always being aware of your stage presence. This is not COMPLETELY true as Ken does have some nonsense, but it requires you to actually get going once you are in advantage. But as far as neutral goes, there is no nuttiness here. No massive Nair to cover up for your lack of footsies and spatial awareness. No crazy transcendent projectile that does great damage that you can fire off without much thought. Getting zoned out? No reflector here folks. You have options, but most are committal. The reward is there if it works, but its not easy.

Smash is a world of one button answers. Fox in melee is a bit of an outlier. Where his incredible skill floor and ceiling were rewarded thanks to massive damage output and ridiculous stage presence. And shine. Shine is like.....better then half the cast. Generally speaking the best characters in smash games are always the ones that take the LEAST amount of thought to deal with any given situation and be able to turn the tide in their favor.

That is not Ken. I made a comparison to Greninja because he is in the same boat with some very real weaknesses. But similar to Fox in Melee is that his mobility is SO insane that it allows him to circumvent many interactions and choose his moments. But even Greninja has some stuff in neutral like shurikens that he can fall back on and not have to rely on big brain mobility plays if he needs a breather.

There is no fall back for Ken. Your brain is always on at all times.

So the question is, would a character like that ever get figured out when most humans just want easy wins and instant results? And of course the answer is no.

So to answer the question is Ken low tier? Nah. He has a real functional gameplan and the tools to do it. Will we ever know what tier he really is? Probably not. Will it matter in the lifespan of the game? Probably not. 75 characters, Many will fall through the cracks. This is not taking into account balance patches of course. But even then Ken will never be meta imo. He is too hard when you can play other hard characters with much more obvious answers to situations.

 

[Rizen]

I’ve been playing a lot of YL lately and I’ve noticed that he struggles against a lot of top tier threats and characters that out range him. His zoning and combos are really strong but the main problem I’ve been having with YL is killing. The only ways I’ve been able to reliably kill is bomb/boomerang to fair confirm at the edge at at least 110% and if I don’t hit that I have to wait till about 140-160% to hit a Nair. I’ve also got kills off of random dairs and a few up b combos but that’s inconsistent. Other than that all my kills are from edgeguarding

Sometimes I’ll rack up like 150% and be at 80% and die and that’s a big problem. That could be my inexperience with the character but I’m hitting his confirms well. I think if YL could kill more successfully he’d be a top of high tier/top tier character. Giving him a kill throw would do wonders

There's also Fair1/Bair1>Smash and Dtilt>Fair/Dair. Sometimes it's good to go for an Fsmash read at 110%ish to save the trouble of letting them live to 140%+. Uthrow stock cap kills around 190%.

YL's a good example of a strong character balanced by poor stats. If he killed 15% earlier and weighed 7 units more he'd be an easy top tier.

 

[Lore]

Seeing Greninja start to be more highly rated has been fantastic. What a great character.

 

[MG_3989]

There's also Fair1/Bair1>Smash and Dtilt>Fair/Dair. Sometimes it's good to go for an Fsmash read at 110%ish to save the trouble of letting them live to 140%+. Uthrow stock cap kills around 190%.

YL's a good example of a strong character balanced by poor stats. If he killed 15% earlier and weighed 7 units more he'd be an easy top tier.

That seems right to me. He feels like a super good character and racking up damage is so easy. It’s just the killing and dying too early

I didn’t that fair1 and bair1 combo’d Smash. I know the d-tilt fair/dair one but a lot of times it seems like they can either DI or air dodge out of it at higher percentages. Sometimes I’ll end up fishing for dair’s at around 110% but maybe fsmash would be the better option. I know I don’t know all of YL’s combos yet because there are so many against so many different characters at different percents which is really cool. I’m still thinking about co-maining him though so I definitely appreciate the help

 

[Repli.Cant]

It's good that people are finally coming around to Olimar being overtly problematic in a way that's almost impossible to ignore.

He's one of the few Smash character that outright needs a major overhaul instead of a few key smart tweaks imo.

I feel like that'd be too difficult to work with. Making a complete overhaul in a moveset to change Olimar's absurd damage output sounds like a recipe for disaster. Not that I have no faith in the balancing team for Ultimate but... should it happen, I expect a lot of trial and error to come before Olimar is at least "balanced," in a sense where he's just not really really really really good, but still does stuff, as opposed to being who had all the critical acclaim of "being the most balanced character in Smash 4!" and with barely anyone to back him up...

But who knows? With Sakurai not at the helm of balancing anymore, maybe the team will be more inclined to take some risks. It makes me excited, really. I genuinely have no idea what's coming next.

 

[ARISTOS]

I was hesitant to say anything about Olimar back during Genesis 6 because truthfully despite his sheer abundance I wasn't sure how to feel about him yet. I think after Frostbite though, I feel fairly confident in saying that his current iteration is probably the best character in the game. Insane DPS, Pikmin plucking is instant, a frame 1 combo breaker, priority and frame data is straight up bananas, a recovery that's harder to punish than it looks, an obscenely stupid up smash that would make envious, can get kill throws, small frame, good mobility, etc. This character is everything people hate about pace-dictating characters like Inkling and Snake, combined with the offensive pressure of characters like spacies. There's nothing that instills fear more in your opponent than just pushing buttons and throwing out Pikmin. If there's any character that's going to ensure swordies to keep being ahead of the meta, I think it's going to be Olimar. If he's not the best character, he's at least going to occupy a similar niche that Brawl-ICs did where he's likely to become the gatekeeping villain based on his kit.

With Olimar as long as you have to directly go toe-to-toe with them, you're going to be in trouble-most characters do not have both the DPS and pace setting ability to deal with the character, so the characters I can see doing well are characters like and swords who can better play on their own terms.

As far as what you could do to Olimar you could easily revert some of the changes made in the transition to Ultimate (U Smash esp lol)

Seems to be a smaller with armor

On a player vs player level it seems players like Nairo, Ally and Larry have seemed to struggle in the transition to Ultimate-I can't tell if it's just age/tiredness or specific aspects in their play

EDIT: Watching James' set vs Void and I don't know why we aren't talking more about Marthies' down tilt? That move is so OD

 

[JustCallMeJon]

IN CASE if you MISS the FROSTBITE 2019, Here were the RESULTS:

Spoiler: Results!

1st: Tweek
2nd: MKLeo
3rd: Myran
4th: Shuton
5th: Cosmos
5th: Light
7th: Nairo
7th: MVD
9th: Shoyo James
9th: Lea
9th: Wishes
9th: Ryuga
13th: Samsora
13th: VoiD
13th: Goblin
13th: Tea
17th: Dabuz
17th: MuteAce
17th: Ned
17th: Fatality
17th: Marss
17th: Umeki
17th: Captain L
17th: UtopianRay
25th: Zinoto
25th: Abadango
25th: Pelca
25th: ZD
25th: Meme
25th: Tachyon
25th: Suarez
25th: Kameme
33rd: Skillager
33rd: Gackt
33rd: Blank
33rd: Zackray
33rd: Ling Ling
33rd: Lui$
33rd: Geist
33rd: dyr
33rd: DM
33rd: NAKAT
33rd: JeBB
33rd: Larry Lurr
33rd: SDX
33rd: Light (Germany)
33rd: false
33rd: WaDi
49th: Gen
49th: Plup
49th: Akashic
49th: Jw
49th: Mr E
49th: Sonido
49th: Blacktwins
49th: Ally
49th: Cookietic
49th: Elegant
49th: Mufasa
49th: Morpheus
49th: HIKARU
49th: Advo
49th: ScAtt
49th: Frozen

Edit: Putting a Spoiler Tag In Here

 

[Jotun873]

IN CASE if you MISS the FROSTBITE 2019, Here were the RESULTS:

Spoiler

1st: Tweek
2nd: MKLeo
3rd: Myran
4th: Shuton
5th: Cosmos
5th: Light
7th: Nairo
7th: MVD
9th: Shoyo James
9th: Lea
9th: Wishes
9th: Ryuga
13th: Samsora
13th: VoiD
13th: Goblin
13th: Tea
17th: Dabuz
17th: MuteAce
17th: Ned
17th: Fatality
17th: Marss
17th: Umeki
17th: Captain L
17th: UtopianRay
25th: Zinoto
25th: Abadango
25th: Pelca
25th: ZD
25th: Meme
25th: Tachyon
25th: Suarez
25th: Kameme
33rd: Skillager
33rd: Gackt
33rd: Blank
33rd: Zackray
33rd: Ling Ling
33rd: Lui$
33rd: Geist
33rd: dyr
33rd: DM
33rd: NAKAT
33rd: JeBB
33rd: Larry Lurr
33rd: SDX
33rd: Light (Germany)
33rd: false
33rd: WaDi
49th: Gen
49th: Plup
49th: Akashic
49th: Jw
49th: Mr E
49th: Sonido
49th: Blacktwins
49th: Ally
49th: Cookietic
49th: Elegant
49th: Mufasa
49th: Morpheus
49th: HIKARU
49th: Advo
49th: ScAtt
49th: Frozen

There is a tournament results thread. Post that there.

Edit: at least theres a spoiler

 

[Mister M]

On the first few pages of this thread, there were people singing praises for pit/dpit and the buffs he gained transitioning from s4 to Ult.

It seems he's a character that's not popular and likely under developed, but has he made any splashes at all?

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

On the first few pages of this thread, there were people singing praises for pit/dpit and the buffs he'd gain transitioning from s4 to Ult.

It seems he's a character that's not popular and likely under developed, but has he made any splashes at all?

Not really, until Earth starts going to tournaments or another Pit player levels up to make waves at a national level you probably won't. Pit isn't a popular character from a game aspect, he came from a relatively niche game well older than the majority of smash players and has had what? One title since then? Since the popularity isn't there he would need to be a really good character to be used and yes it's true he's gotten plenty of good buffs and I think his transition from 4 to Ultimate was good for him. I don't know if it's enough to make people want to start using him more now aside his loyalists and fans.

 

[Lore]

I mostly know Pit due to how hard Nintendo Power pushed for and mentioned him. I miss that magazine, even if it was a promo machine for Nintendo.

I wouldn't be surprised to see a port/sequel for his 3ds game, and his popularity will likely go up afterwards.

 

[Jotun873]

I think the other problem is how unremarkably average pit feels. He has a good recovery, multiple albiet small jumps, some small disjoints, a (rather bad) reflector and his most unique thing about him is his trick arrow which isnt even that impactful.

Where as mario, another all rounder (popularity aside) is at least known for his gimping tools, poor recovery and easy combo game.

 

[Rizen]

That seems right to me. He feels like a super good character and racking up damage is so easy. It’s just the killing and dying too early

I didn’t that fair1 and bair1 combo’d Smash. I know the d-tilt fair/dair one but a lot of times it seems like they can either DI or air dodge out of it at higher percentages. Sometimes I’ll end up fishing for dair’s at around 110% but maybe fsmash would be the better option. I know I don’t know all of YL’s combos yet because there are so many against so many different characters at different percents which is really cool. I’m still thinking about co-maining him though so I definitely appreciate the help

You should checkout the metagame thread.
https://smashboards.com/threads/young-link-metagame-thread.467398/post-22899533

 

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

Not really, until Earth starts going to tournaments or another Pit player levels up to make waves at a national level you probably won't. Pit isn't a popular character from a game aspect, he came from a relatively niche game well older than the majority of smash players and has had what? One title since then? Since the popularity isn't there he would need to be a really good character to be used and yes it's true he's gotten plenty of good buffs and I think his transition from 4 to Ultimate was good for him. I don't know if it's enough to make people want to start using him more now aside his loyalists and fans.

Correct me if I'm wrong. But to my understanding, Earth, 9B and like 6 other Japanese players actually assisted in the balancing of Ultimate, and due to some Japanese laws, they are now barred from competing as a result. I should probably motivate myself to go find a source at some point rather than just spout what I've read on the internet.

If true I'm sad we dont get anymore Earth but maybe that's why Pit at least feels functional this game which I'm glad for.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But to my understanding, Earth, 9B and like 6 other Japanese players actually assisted in the balancing of Ultimate, and due to some Japanese laws, they are now barred from competing as a result. I should probably motivate myself to go find a source at some point rather than just spout what I've read on the internet.

If true I'm sad we dont get anymore Earth but maybe that's why Pit at least feels functional this game which I'm glad for.

I have serious doubts there is a law that prevents them from competing. I believe the playtesters simply are opting to not compete until Ultimate has been out a while (it's only been 2 months lol) because of the unfair advantage they would have with having played the game far longer than everyone else. (And I wouldn't be surprised if they are still being used to play test balance changes and the DLC).

I expect them to start showing up to stuff probably closer to the end of ulitmates development cycle, depending on how long they are still going to be playtesters. These are professionals they wouldn't completely bar them from tournaments forever, tournaments are the reason they were offered the opportunity in the first place to play test.

 

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

I have serious doubts there is a law that prevents them from competing. I believe the playtesters simply are opting to not compete until Ultimate has been out a while (it's only been 2 months lol) because of the unfair advantage they would have with having played the game far longer than everyone else. (And I wouldn't be surprised if they are still being used to play test balance changes and the DLC).

I expect them to start showing up to stuff probably closer to the end of ulitmates development cycle, depending on how long they are still going to be playtesters. These are professionals they wouldn't completely bar them from tournaments forever, tournaments are the reason they were offered the opportunity in the first place to play test.

Ah ok I looked it up and it was Amsa, Ranai, 9B, and Earth. Doesn't say anything about a law just that Amsa said this didnt mean he was competing. Clarification. So I suppose maybe they're still busy working while development is active, yeah that makes sense. But personally I'm hoping development is active for quite a while.

 

[Sean²]

Correct me if I'm wrong. But to my understanding, Earth, 9B and like 6 other Japanese players actually assisted in the balancing of Ultimate, and due to some Japanese laws, they are now barred from competing as a result. I should probably motivate myself to go find a source at some point rather than just spout what I've read on the internet.

If true I'm sad we dont get anymore Earth but maybe that's why Pit at least feels functional this game which I'm glad for.

Ranai was one of them too, has anyone noted if he competes any more? aMSa as well, he’s still all over for Melee but I haven’t seen much of him in Ultimate, even though he competed in Smash 4 throughout most of its lifetime.

I don’t know about a law, but it’s plausible they’d have signed a contract of some kind. Unfortunately I’m on mobile and half the things I look up for research won’t load correctly.

Edit:Oops got ninja’d

 

[NotLiquid]

No such thing as "Japanese laws" that prevent participation of tournaments, it's just a simple matter of conflict of interest. If you were involved with the development of a game, it's ethically questionable to partake in a competitive event for consumers that can stand for your monetary gain. This isn't just something that goes down in Japan, anyone who's vested in the FGC should know well by now that Peter Rosas (aka Combofiend aka Bionic AAAAAARM aka "characters are just functions") who was one of the top Marvel vs Capcom players had to quit attending tournaments after being hired by Capcom USA. It's questionable whether Ranai and co. will be allowed to attend a Smash Ultimate major soon, if ever.

 

[bc1910]

Agreeing with whoever said Belmonts are pretty good. They have powerful niches in certain MUs and force almost every character to at least play their game. Just some are (much) better at getting around it than others.

On the subject of Olimar this is something else in Greninja’s favour; he has a very good MU against Olimar right now. Dabuz has commented on how much trouble Akashic has given him and team JP threw out Lea immediately to counterpick Dabuz in the crew battle. Greninja’s ability to substitute the attached Pikmin allows him to punish pretty much any action Olimar takes at close range besides camping shield, and his Nair removes all but Blue Pikmin straight away. These things in combination inhibit Olimar’s usual zoning a lot.

You have a strange character who is imo as hard to play as Greninja with a massive skill floor that even once you gain mastery over the basics, has no easy way to contend with alot of the craziness of the rest of the cast.

I think Ken’s harder.

I don’t want to just rewrite what you’ve said; suffice to say I agree with the main points, Ken has to play constant footsies and use all his brain power in neutral. One of the most underrated things about Greninja which has been true since the Smash 4 days is his ability to disengage. If he doesn’t want to deal with a situation he doesn’t have to. If he wants to shuriken camp you for a while he can. Who can actually lock him down? Ground specs notwithstanding, Falco sized jumps and top 10 fall speed on a character without ass air mobility is kinda nuts.

Greninja lacks jank in the traditional sense but between his mobility, sub, shuriken and Shadow Sneak he has his share of nutty stuff. Those factors plus his highly rewarding punish tools are usually enough to oppress mid tiers and below (Ridley is probably an exception in neutral but Gren blows him up so hard in advantage it might not matter).

 

[MG_3989]

You should checkout the metagame thread.
https://smashboards.com/threads/young-link-metagame-thread.467398/post-22899533

I’ve been there, I got a lot of great info from there and it’s been an awesome resource. It helped me with working out combos and neutral a lot

 

[Ziodyne 21]

P.S. Actually, you mentioned Ganondorf, so I'm going to pose this question as well - is Ganondorf ACTUALLY popular outside of online usage? Do people take their Ganondorfs into competitive offline tournaments?

Gannondorf if popular online becasue spotty wi-fi connections are basically his Triforce of Power in this game. I am not saying that all Gannondorf players are like all crappy online scrubs. But I can immedeately tell the difference between actulal legit good Gannondorf players and scrubby wf-fi warrior ones. . The latter will just thorw whatever attacks they want than, and are like..What..I am actullay getting hit back whenever I miss? This ..this must be some kind of black magic, this is unheard of!. Wait a minute is this the so called..punishment of the whiffing I have heard rumors about? NOOOO!!! and then they just completely lost when players have the ability to, you know properly react to all their attacks

 

[Fatmanonice]

Mildly entertaining seeing people try to put Lucario in a tier list when its pretty clear no-one has any idea about the character. Kind of the poster boy of SSBU tier lists, too many characters to have knowledge of, and no point separating the middle/bottom of the pack out.

That's because he's dogged with the same problems he always has: he's a feast or famine character and has one of the highest learning curves of the entire cast. For these reasons, hardly anyone plays him and you're lucky to have literally one player rank with him at major tournaments.

On the topic of learning curves, Tweek did great closing Frostbite out with Wario. As someone who has played Wario since Brawl, he is definitely a character that takes work. His range sucks and his reliable kill options are pretty limited. His safest kill option is bair, a move where he literally throws half of his overall body at you. His combos string together a lot easier now but you have to make those openings and matches are easily won or lost based on whether you can land wafts. Every Wario player is painfully familiar with that feeling when your heart bungee cords to your balls after a narrowly missed waft that would have won you the match. Tweek's success with Wario should not be underrated.

I also wanted to say that I agree with what a lot of other people are saying:

-Olimar's probably going to be an issue going forward.

-Wolf is the new Cloud and, honestly, with bigger strengths and fewer meaningful weaknesses. Pichu's not too terribly far off if we're totally honest because it overwhelms a significant portion of the cast despite being a featherweight.

-The honeymoon phase of Inkling and Palutena is close to over.

-Maining at least two characters in this game is going to be extremely important.

-Like every game they're in, Peach, ROB, and Yoshi will get noticeably worse as more people get used to them.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

On the subject of Olimar this is something else in Greninja’s favour; he has a very good MU against Olimar right now. Dabuz has commented on how much trouble Akashic has given him and team JP threw out Lea immediately to counterpick Dabuz in the crew battle. Greninja’s ability to substitute the attached Pikmin allows him to punish pretty much any action Olimar takes at close range besides camping shield, and his Nair removes all but Blue Pikmin straight away.

Whoa! How punishable is substitute on shield when used against a projectile like that?
One other minor Greninja nit, his grab is kind of slow at 10 frames. It's not as bad as most tether grabs, but it still feels awkward given how fast his normal kit is, coming from other fast characters who dash in/empty hop and 6f grab for example, for me at least.


On a different note, some things that are interesting to me about the top 128 at frostbite:

Spoiler: Character representation in top 128

Only 2 Inkling mains. Have to go down to 97th to find the next one. People still put Inkling in the top tier and Cosmos put up the best fight against Tweek in the tourney, but the character still seems pretty unpopular even with so many pros in a character crisis. Any theories why?

No Clouds in the top 128. Doesn't seem horrible but also doesn't seem like a strong reason to play him over other sword characters atm.

Only one super heavy in the top 64, Hikaru tied for 49th with DK. He also got highlight reeled by Chrom during the tourney.

No links in the top 64.

 

[Nobie]

I understand why people complain about characters like Olimar, but it's still kind of tiresome.

Like, imagine all you have to defend yourself is a slingshot, and you're being chased by a guy with a machete. Does any sane person run towards him and go, "LET'S DO THIS, HOMBRE"?

I think that Smash Ultimate is really trying to push a game where those thought-heavy characters have a more prominent role, but Smash players looking for results ASAP are going to shy away from them. I agree with ESAM when he says Mewtwo players are mainly taken aback by no longer having neutral come down to one or two tools.

With a cast this large and only so many tournaments, I predict there are going to be literal top tiers who never get a major win.

 

[Diddy Kong]

IN CASE if you MISS the FROSTBITE 2019, Here were the RESULTS:

Spoiler: Results!

1st: Tweek
2nd: MKLeo
3rd: Myran
4th: Shuton
5th: Cosmos
5th: Light
7th: Nairo
7th: MVD
9th: Shoyo James
9th: Lea
9th: Wishes
9th: Ryuga
13th: Samsora
13th: VoiD
13th: Goblin
13th: Tea
17th: Dabuz
17th: MuteAce
17th: Ned
17th: Fatality
17th: Marss
17th: Umeki
17th: Captain L
17th: UtopianRay
25th: Zinoto
25th: Abadango
25th: Pelca
25th: ZD
25th: Meme
25th: Tachyon
25th: Suarez
25th: Kameme
33rd: Skillager
33rd: Gackt
33rd: Blank
33rd: Zackray
33rd: Ling Ling
33rd: Lui$
33rd: Geist
33rd: dyr
33rd: DM
33rd: NAKAT
33rd: JeBB
33rd: Larry Lurr
33rd: SDX
33rd: Light (Germany)
33rd: false
33rd: WaDi
49th: Gen
49th: Plup
49th: Akashic
49th: Jw
49th: Mr E
49th: Sonido
49th: Blacktwins
49th: Ally
49th: Cookietic
49th: Elegant
49th: Mufasa
49th: Morpheus
49th: HIKARU
49th: Advo
49th: ScAtt
49th: Frozen

Edit: Putting a Spoiler Tag In Here

Spoiler: Spoilerz

So how many times did Zinoto use Diddy instead of Peach?

 

[Foie]

Agreeing with whoever said Belmonts are pretty good. They have powerful niches in certain MUs and force almost every character to at least play their game. Just some are (much) better at getting around it than others.

On the subject of Olimar this is something else in Greninja’s favour; he has a very good MU against Olimar right now. Dabuz has commented on how much trouble Akashic has given him and team JP threw out Lea immediately to counterpick Dabuz in the crew battle. Greninja’s ability to substitute the attached Pikmin allows him to punish pretty much any action Olimar takes at close range besides camping shield, and his Nair removes all but Blue Pikmin straight away. These things in combination inhibit Olimar’s usual zoning a lot.



I think Ken’s harder.

I don’t want to just rewrite what you’ve said; suffice to say I agree with the main points, Ken has to play constant footsies and use all his brain power in neutral. One of the most underrated things about Greninja which has been true since the Smash 4 days is his ability to disengage. If he doesn’t want to deal with a situation he doesn’t have to. If he wants to shuriken camp you for a while he can. Who can actually lock him down? Ground specs notwithstanding, Falco sized jumps and top 10 fall speed on a character without *** air mobility is kinda nuts.

Greninja lacks jank in the traditional sense but between his mobility, sub, shuriken and Shadow Sneak he has his share of nutty stuff. Those factors plus his highly rewarding punish tools are usually enough to oppress mid tiers and below (Ridley is probably an exception in neutral but Gren blows him up so hard in advantage it might not matter).

If Falco had Greninja's horizontal mobility he'd be top tier for sure. I imagine Greninja falls somewhere similar to fox. He requires precise gameplay, has good kill confirms, great mobility with some weaknesses. His poor out of shield options are somewhat mitigated by his ability to just full hop away and reset neutral. He kind of pokes away at his opponent until he lands a kill confirm. Less reliant on strong oppressive buttons and more reliant on his strong oppressive mobility.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I really want Diddy's air speed to be buffed, it would help his game plan a lot.

 

[Augi]

-The honeymoon phase of Inkling and Palutena is close to over.

In what way? As in, "the hype for them has settled" or "They aren't as great as initially perceived and are going down the tier lists"?

If the latter, Inkling I've heard grumblings - nothing substatial, but I've heard nothing on Palu...

Palu seems to just continually rise up the tier rankings each time with very little discussion or fanfare.

 

[J0eyboi]

Whoa! How punishable is substitute on shield when used against a projectile like that?

It's like -33, possibly worse if you bounce. You should be getting punished for a blocked Substitute every time.

On the first few pages of this thread, there were people singing praises for pit/dpit and the buffs he gained transitioning from s4 to Ult.

It seems he's a character that's not popular and likely under developed, but has he made any splashes at all?

As always, I'm pretty sure Thinkaman has already made a more comprehensive post on the subject, but Pit's biggest problem by far is that there's barely any reason to play him. Wolf is an easier character with the same fundamentals-heavy shtick who also happens to be much better in general and have a lot more dumb bull**** to attract people to him. If you like Kid Icarus, Palutena is a better character who also seems to be very popular with people who've played the game. If you like his edgeguarding, most of the other multijump characters can do the same stuff but better.

In short, no matter how you like playing, there is probably a character who you will enjoy more and/or perform better with than Pit, which sucks because I don't think he's bad. The buffs to his poking game, damage output, and kill power alleviated basically all of his major problems from Smash 4, leaving an extremely solid character. He just never gets a chance to prove it because there's so little reason to play him.

 

[Heracr055]

No such thing as "Japanese laws" that prevent participation of tournaments, it's just a simple matter of conflict of interest. If you were involved with the development of a game, it's ethically questionable to partake in a competitive event for consumers that can stand for your monetary gain. This isn't just something that goes down in Japan, anyone who's vested in the FGC should know well by now that Peter Rosas (aka Combofiend aka Bionic AAAAAARM aka "characters are just functions") who was one of the top Marvel vs Capcom players had to quit attending tournaments after being hired by Capcom USA. It's questionable whether Ranai and co. will be allowed to attend a Smash Ultimate major soon, if ever.

I think that if you are part of the design process, you should not be allowed to compete because that person has a knowledge of the game they shouldn't since they helped develop it. When it comes to playing for money that's sort of like counting cards or fixing a bet imo (illegal).
I still have faith that the Inkling nation is underground hard at work, plotting their hostile takeover of the meta. There are people (including top players) still out there who still think she's the best in the game. I will lose this view if they don't emerge by, say, EVO.

 

[NotLiquid]

-The honeymoon phase of Inkling and Palutena is close to over.

Inkling's "honeymoon phase" ended month 1, in as much as people believed she was the undisputable best character in the game. That having been said, I'm not sure why this is the conclusion you'd come to based off of Frostbite when it was the character's best tournament so far in terms of pure placing, and when the character's best player managed to almost beat the person who is widely considered one of (if not) the best player in the game.