Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Frihetsanka]

Speaking of Pichu, I'm becoming less and less impressed with this character.

I've been saying this for a while now, but I think Pichu is still one of the most overrated characters in the game. I don't think he's going to fall out of top 10, but he doesn't seem to be a top 5 character, and as the meta develops it's possible Pikachu will end up being the more solid character (thanks to Quick Attack, better range, and better survivability).

 

[Browny]

I'll just say what I've been saying on the mewtwo boards a lot.

1) His tail disjoint nerf is SIGNIFICANTLY blown out of proportion. It is a nerf to be sure, but this affects his attacks in various way and its not all bad. With his dtilt and ftilt, his tail is only in the z-plane during the active hitbox frames meaning that at no time is hit hurtbox actually extended, without a hitbox attacked to it. This is a really big deal because in ground-vs-ground interactions, this means that the disjoint makes absolutely no difference whatsoever where attacks clank instead of trading and no one is using ftilt or dtilt as an anti air

When it comes to his utilt, uair and bair this is where the disjoint matters. There's no argument, he will lose trades here where he used to win but this is only assuming a fairly tight spacing window. Mewtwos tail disjoint used to be a fraction longer than lucinas sword, now its about the same as toon links sword. So he will lose trades vs sword users more often but vs non sword users, hes still got a decent disjoint advantage.

In all other times, his tail is usually out of the z-plane and can't be hit. During tumble and during the first few frames of his jump animation for some reason, his tail is indeed hittable. However when hes knocked away from the enemy, hes almost always facing towards them so his tail being hittable is irrelevant, it makes no difference. If he is being juggled vertically and in tumble his tail enters the z plane but theres another issue... he basically contorts into some weird kind of ball when in tumble. Given that he is a large bodied character, his overall hurtbox size doesn't really increase at all since he bunches himself up. If his tail was 100% disjointed, it might actually make no difference whatsoever as to whether or not he is hit while in hitstun.

And the kicker... is all of these facts were the same in smash 4, where no one complained about his tail being a hurtbox because guess what, it rarely actually mattered. The only time the disjointed tail actually matters is in bair/uair/utilt trading interactions where he lost his lucina-tier range for toon link range. That's it. There's nothing more. Its a nerf for sure, but its nothing more than that. Completely blown out of proportion.

2) Mewtwos biggest nerf by far, and what actually makes him a worse character, is the lack of free high damage conversions off a dtilt tipper. The best characters in smash always have the best combination of 2 things; How easy it is for them to win neutral and how much damage they can put off a single win. In smash 4, Mewtwo had these 2 in the bag with his easy to land dtilt leading to fair chains. You only had to win neutral 3 times to get the enemy to KO % from shadowball or something. In ultimate, not only is his ability to win neutral weaker thanks to losing SHAD-fair spam, when he does, the conversions are weaker thanks to dtilt tipper having no combo potential. He now has to win neutral like 6 times to get the enemy to KO%. This is a big deal when peach can do it in literally 2. If his tail hurtbox was actually BUFFED from smash 4, he would still suffer the exact same problems with how often he has to win neutral now.

3) Mewtwos buffs are good. fsmash is ludicrously strong and disable is much better, hes faster and his throws do more damage and his edgeguarding can be brutal thanks to airdodge changes and bair being stronger. All of these buffs though don't come close to addressing the fact that he used to convert 40% off a single neutral win in smash 4, now a dtilt tipper might only lead to 5%. The net result is that Mewtwo has to play much more risky to open up his combos by getting closer, absolutely within range of grabs, trades, aerials out of shield or anything else. He can't just poke you from BF's platform length away for free anymore, unless he wants that sweet 5%.

I get really annoyed when I see people saying that Mewtwo needs buffs to his tail disjoint as if that will fix his problems because it won't. It barely affects gameplay at all. Last week I did a test where I watched some high level Mewtwo matches and counted the amount of times the enemy traded with M2s tail attacks. I counted zero. Not a single time did the disjoint matter. But oh wow the difference in dtilt conversions was real.

The takeaway is that Mewtwo players need to play him differently from smash 4, you cant just treat him like melee marth anymore. Shadowball does a lot more damage, his edgeguarding is far more potent now. He needs to be played far more campy, and hyper aggressive offstage. Just like how Snake required obscene levels of camping, mewtwo does too and no more just sitting at the edge waiting for people to recover while charging a shadowball like in smash 4, because everyone got back stage for free. You really need to drop down nair everyone or just bait the airdodge and bair them.

 

[Kung Fu Treachery]

Mewtwo's the topic du jour, so I guess I'll de-lurk for the first time in a while.

I sort of agree with those of you who say it's good that he got his overtuned options exchanged for a more varied approach, but I think that losing his suffocating neutral tools, combined with the airdodge changes, puts him in a tough spot, because it exposes all the weaknesses he had in Smash 4 that were harder to take advantage of in that game. And none of those really got fixed:

• His double jump is weird. Formerly, this let you do things like Nair-Footstool-Disable, which I don't believe works anymore (though maybe Footstool-Disable does?). But it also made it hard for M2 to jump out of pressure, and that's still true. He dips his big hurtbox down before floating away. It's rough.
• His grab is bad. This used to be a fine trade-off, given the craziness of Smash 4 M2's upthrow, but that got nerfed in the transition to ultimate. His throws are no longer good enough to justify such a lackluster grab, even with the nerfs to grab in general. (Also, it bothers me thematically. M2 can pick things up with his mind; grabbing seems like it would be easy for him.)
• Tying into the bad grab: M2's out of shield options have never really been great. Those options are more important than ever in Ultimate, and M2's are severely lacking. In fact, with the nerfs to Fair, Nair, and USmash (why is this move so bad?), and Teleport not really doing anything, you can get stuck in shield for a very long time. Although, it probably won't be long until someone shieldpokes your giant hurtbox.
• He has difficulty landing. This was true in Smash 4, even with his busted airdodge, and it hasn't changed much in Ultimate. B-Reverse Shadow Ball helps here, Teleport can be a great mixup, and you still have the one airdodge, but sometimes you'll have little recourse but to Dair and pray. Dair has a large hitbox, so it can work out, but if you get sent back into the air, given how light M2 is, you won't get many more chances before you're dead. The nerf to Confusion's 'jump' hurt here, as it's harder to stall. Side note: Is it just me, or is Teleport edge-canceling way harder in Ultimate than it used to be? Is it the same for Palutena and Zelda? It seems very finicky with M2, and if you miss, you often get that little bounce into the air, and M2 just folds his arms and floats in special fall, like he's disappointed with you. Meet me halfway here, man-cat!
• He's light and big. Obvious, right? But when you take away his abusive neutral options (like Smash 4 DTilt), every interaction becomes incredibly risky, because not only is he easier to get in on than before, he's just as abysmal as ever when it comes to resetting. M2 can't play like ZSS, who can afford to take a chance, because she can get away from opponents with Flip Jump. M2 takes too much damage off a mistake for the risk to be in his favor most of the time.

While I may seem down on him, M2 still has a lot of strong options, and I don't think he's a bad character. Fair is still ridiculous, but it went up to frame 7 again, which I believe is where it was before his big patch in Smash 4, which brought it to frame 6. I would love to have that sped up a bit. Frame 5 is probably too much, but given how much punishment he takes, I wouldn't be opposed to it. Bair has always felt wonky to me, but it's obviously a great edgeguard move, an area where M2 really excels, due to his still-excellent recovery. Shadow Ball is borderline busted, and its lower speed in Ultimate feels like a buff, since M2's ground speed lets him chase after it and apply pressure. Also, it's another great edgeguard option. He still has two kill throws. His airdodge is still great. FSmash and DSmash are murderous. His jab tramples now. Uair is a great juggling tool, and is weirdly safe on shield. Lastly, I may be in the minority here, but the Disable changes seem huge to me. Invincible Frame 10-16! in a game with so many landing aerials and a weakened shield, this move is a legitimate counter-hit option, and can net early kills/edgeguard situations. Granted, it's risky, which, as I said, is a problem for M2, but Disable is legitimately usable. He's still fast as hell on the ground.

So what would I change?

Nair makes me sad. Smash 4 M2 could get a lot of things off of it, but it was never a move you could throw out whenever in neutral. It lost to basically any hitbox. The shorter duration in Ultimate makes it harder to catch rolls with, and it also makes it worse for edgeguarding. He doesn't need much help there, but I just don't see why nerfing this move was necessary.

USmash just needs to work again.

The tail hurtbox is currently a huge problem, as other posters have noted. This character doesn't like trades, especially when other characters can reset faster than him.

His jab tramples, but it's still pretty slow, limiting its utility.

Spiking with Dair feels oddly difficult, like I get the sourspot almost every time. It could just be me.

I really like the suggestion from ARISTOS of buffing his air acceleration. One thing I've noticed playing M2 is that he feels jarringly sluggish in the air, especially compared to his ground movement.

Also, his damage output is still impressive, but less so versus the rest of the cast than it was in Smash 4. Losing damage on shorthop aerials is notable here; he used to get a lot more percent off stuffing people with Fair. In order to justify his glass cannon weaknesses, he could do with some buffs in that department.

My pie in the sky buff is still aerial Disable putting the opponent into special fall. Come on, it would be hilarious.

I'm interested in where patches will take M2, in part because in his home series (from what I understand; I was never a competitive Pokemon player), he could fill a variety of roles, depending on what moveset the player chose. Ultimate M2 is a fine character, but he could be tweaked in any number of directions. Maybe the devs buff his weight a bit and shorten the tail hurtbox, making him more proficient as a defensive zoner, as he was before. Personally, I'd rather buff his speed, damage output, and hitboxes, shave some endlag off Teleport (so he has a high-risk escape option), and make him a holy terror with a horrendous disadvantage state, because I find that more fun. Gimme some more juice; I wanna roll the dice.

 

[Gérard Majax]

• His grab is bad. This used to be a fine trade-off, given the craziness of Smash 4 M2's upthrow, but that got nerfed in the transition to ultimate. His throws are no longer good enough to justify such a lackluster grab, even with the nerfs to grab in general. (Also, it bothers me thematically. M2 can pick things up with his mind; grabbing seems like it would be easy for him.)

I kind of disagree on this point. I haven't checked his grab frame data but it's probably average from my experience (I'm not sure why you would call it lackluster). However everyone's grab reward has been toned down in ultimate, while he kept all of his s4 grab combos (ie none lol), he kept his bthrow, positional advantage is more important in ultimate because edgegarding is easier, and fthrow deals 50 bazillions damage.
But more importantly, mewtwo is hella fast now, which makes it relatively easy to get a grab if you happen to read a shield or to catch a landing. Not to mention shadowball mixups, which can condition his opponent to shield (or jump, but he is pretty good at calling jumps with fair and utilt/usmash (if it worked)).

• Tying into the bad grab: M2's out of shield options have never really been great. Those options are more important than ever in Ultimate, and M2's are severely lacking. In fact, with the nerfs to Fair, Nair, and USmash (why is this move so bad?), and Teleport not really doing anything, you can get stuck in shield for a very long time. Although, it probably won't be long until someone shieldpokes your giant hurtbox.

Agree that his OOS isn't the best. However his speed increase, along with ultimate's new movement mechanics, makes it easier to play around it. Nair OOS, while beatable, is a reasonable option. Also his OOS options are actually faster than in smash 4 thanks to the jumpsquat changed (went from 5 to 3 frames), so fair is frame 10 instead of 11, and nair 10 instead of 12.

• Side note: Is it just me, or is Teleport edge-canceling way harder in Ultimate than it used to be? Is it the same for Palutena and Zelda? It seems very finicky with M2, and if you miss, you often get that little bounce into the air, and M2 just folds his arms and floats in special fall, like he's disappointed with you. Meet me halfway here, man-cat!

Yup, it's definitely worse than it used to be. Haven't really tested Zelda but it looks pretty similar to her smash 4 teleport. Palutena's cancel is mad easy is to do though because she gets so much momentum with it.


Other random character thoughts, in case you guys are tired of talking about m2 :

: has any one seen this character? I don't think I've heard of her since the game's launch, except that one time when some top players (I think it was Nairo?) said that she wasn't that bad. She still has solid normals and pin is honestly still good, just not completely busted. You can now drop down from a pin in ultimate instead of jumping, and it's still hella scary at the ledge, especially against predictable recoveries (W O L F). She hasn't gained much from the transition though, has trouble killing and some of her nerfs were questionable (up b?). Also fsmash being unsafe on shield on tipper is pretty disappointing.

: I think someone in this thread mentioned that deep breathing was as good as limit, and it's honestly maybe even better than it. This move is completely bonkers, everything becomes safe, she gets faster, everything kills (bair kills at 110 middle stage rofl), random strings do 55 billions damage. Thanks god it has a cooldown and it is on a character with below average approach options, but if you get in disadvantage and she has the cooldown, good luck, she might slightly raise her hand and feet menacingly and kill you at 80.
Otherwise nair and utilt are relatively safe combo starters, she has some grab combos, football is still a good option (can get nasty offstage) although it kinds of suffer from gordo syndrom now, and Sun Salutation is a charge shot which is always nice to have (it's probably worse than charge shot and shadow ball, it's pretty slow to come out).
I didn't have the time to watch any competitive wii fit set yet (Are there any relevant wii fit players? Is John Numbers still playing?), but I have reasonable expectations for the character. She feels way more complete and scary than the "camp at the ledge and jank : the character" she used to be in 4.

 

[Impax]

I didn't have the time to watch any competitive wii fit set yet (Are there any relevant wii fit players? Is John Numbers still playing?), but I have reasonable expectations for the character. She feels way more complete and scary than the "camp at the ledge and jank : the character" she used to be in 4.

John numbers has been maining inkling. One time I saw him use wii fit it was pretty bad.
There seem to be a lot of relevant wii fits in various local scenes. But none of them have broke through nationally yet.

 

[Jotun873]

I play with someone who uses corrin, it seems that corrin is largely fine. I still have trouble dealing with her side special but that seems to be just a player issue.

I think corrin is just going through the smash 4 metaknight phase (without the overnerfed part)

 

[Sean²]

WFT’s hitboxes don’t make sense to me. Yeah, you whiffed the read on a roll behind on the fsmash, but it has a back hitbox so I get hurt anyway for trying to punish you. What is that even? And what is forward air? Why does it hit me like that?

It’s like they just took a random mishmash of hitboxes they couldn’t work in on other characters and just dumped them all over WFT because “why not?” She seems like she’d fit better into something like Brawl Minus over a traditional Smash game sometimes.

I can’t remember where I saw it now (on mobile) but someone was talking about basing nerfs and buffs on Elite Smash and K Rool. I’d like to be optimistic and think K Rool’s suck gun was nerfed because it created long periods of zero interaction between players, not because it was actually thought to be OP. We’ve all been there, you’re on the ledge with K Rool covering all options with that move. The only thing you can do is hang there and wait for him to be done. And if they chose to go the full length every time, it could take some time.

 

[Frihetsanka]

: has any one seen this character? I don't think I've heard of her since the game's launch, except that one time when some top players (I think it was Nairo?) said that she wasn't that bad. She still has solid normals and pin is honestly still good, just not completely busted. You can now drop down from a pin in ultimate instead of jumping, and it's still hella scary at the ledge, especially against predictable recoveries (W O L F). She hasn't gained much from the transition though, has trouble killing and some of her nerfs were questionable (up b?).

Promaelia and LetsTickle both play Corrin from time to time. She is, unfortunately, quite mediocre in this game. Her grounded game isn't very good at all, her neutral or disadvantage are also lacking, and her recovery went from somewhat below average to being one of the worst in the game (try hitting her when she's off-stage without a jump, chances are she'll die now because of the up-B nerf, the up-B nerf might've been one of the biggest single nerfs she got). Dragon Fang Shot is much less consistent now and will often just miss even if you connect the stun point blank, her down-tilt doesn't combo as well, and her fair is noticeably slower. Her kill throws are also worse and her pin significantly worse. At least her juggle game is still good, but it's not nearly enough to make up for the other flaws. It doesn't help that Lucina is fairly similar and better in most ways.

Cosmos, Ryuga, Zackray, and Frozen all dropped Corrin in Ultimate, and unless she's buffed I highly doubt any top player will pick her up (maybe someone will try her for a few tournaments as a secondary before dropping her, but that doesn't really count).

 

[AxelVDP]

Everyone mentioning how Mewtwo's usmash is 'bad', but to me it looks like a great move O_O
Strong, good antiair, covers like more than half of a battlefield platform and the hits seem to link pretty reliably to me...
maybe you won't hit small grounded opponents but you can't have it all

Also his grab game looks pretty good aswell (as stated in previous posts, he can condition shields easily), strong throws that kill/deal lots of dmg and give you decent positioning. and dthrow can be pretty nasty on stages like battlefield where it forces tech situations on low platforms even at usmash kill%s

 

[Baby_Sneak]

Why play high tiers that take time, when you have top tiers that take less time?

I troll a lot and goof around, however what I am going to say is real.

The biggest issue for smash ultimate meta is that there are several top tiers that take less work, LESS dedication and inflict FAR less mental stress than characters in lower tiers. They are simply too strong for only needing good fundamentals to see results.

So if you want results the course of action is clear.

I drafted a post on this topic yesterday, but the thread veered in a totally different direction by the time I finished it and I thought it would have been awkward to just blurt it out.

Gone are the days of sitting in your bedroom for hours upon hours grinding out matchups and tech skill with a niche character you enjoy playing. Now come the days of high stakes competition and high profile sponsors. People stopped caring about any one person being the best at any given character some time ago, it’s about winning fast and as often as possible now. You’re getting performance reviews from a company you work for now, not just bodying locals in your hometown. You need a win now character to keep up.

This is the first time where a playerbase moved almost in its entirety from one game to a new one in Smash history with multi-million dollar companies already backing the top players, or at least eyeing up the competition from the get go. So I’m fearing that the already conceived top tiers may continue to get pushed, but all the ones that keep getting touted with “potential” will get snubbed in the long run. With top players not wanting to touch them beyond friendlies, they may be left to players who may not have the same exorbitant amount of time or energy for Smash to develop them.

Salem took a big gamble on Link, which is respectable. But he is a character that’s already showing that it takes more work to play him optimally than who all you’ve seen in grand finals of the last two super majors. Many would probably say there’s no reason to play Link when Snake exists. I know Liquid has been super lenient with the talent they support, lucky for him, but I can’t imagine that some of the other big teams would be tolerant of middling results for long.

I’m hoping it will balance out a bit more later on and that most of this is still just new game hype.

Edit: I guess I should add my context here...is that lower level players still like to follow in the footsteps of higher level players and parrot their arguments on certain things without understanding why besides the fact that “so and so agrees with this, you’re not better than so and so, why should I listen to you?” It’s a big echo chamber out there with a few figureheads blasting their megaphones down them. If anyone doesn’t believe me, check out some of the Smash subreddits sometime. The hivemind is real.

Ima just be [somewhat] brief. This looks really bad for those who want a deep meta:

• Motivation is entirely on being the best by any means. this isn't wrong, but when you're basing your characters on being the least requiring as possible, you're intentionally trying to not dip below surface-level depth. The talk about getting secondaries to deny as many characters as possible, and there being a few solo-viable mains because there's only a few that can impose their will freely doesn't make the issue any better either.
• Top players and their tier lists and whose who follow every letter that they type and spit out. Sheep culture is really bad among players in general, and this heavily discourages experimentation.
• Almost no culture of "Diggers," or "Miners." I don't know the best term to categorize a population like this, but those who just digs and tries to find as many interesting things as possible. Inform me as you must, but I haven't seen any (maybe because it's really low-level or hidden).
• Patches, for better or worse, kills any motivation for the above. They balance the game and keep things from going the route of brawl or Third Strike (it was chun that dried the game up, right Emblem Lord ? chun and Yun, though yun was a rushdown character). However, they also heavily discourage experimentation and sharing knowledge.

Brawl was a really bad game for competitive play, but goodness was it explored. Nearly every character and every stage was explored heavily. For example, this bike move by wario:

platform-canceling

ganondorf's super jump

etc.

And you can tell it was explored heavily by the literature it produced. Ima use one example, and that being a diddy guide, https://smashboards.com/threads/the...nd-more-read-this-if-youre-new-4-2-12.236290/. This is a tech guide, with links to various other guides that deal with when your opponent has your banana, dealing with MK's tornado, being reactive vs proactive, a three week discussion on using his tilts. This may or may not be impressive, but compare that to smash 4. there's probably some deep robin guide, or deep duck hunt/pac-man/rosalina guide, but it's not very thorough in relation to the amount of characters there. It still had plenty of material to go through.

TLDR: I'm just not feeling the future for the deepness of the game.

EDIT: I have a feeling patch culture actually causes people to grab onto the path of least resistance with a higher intensity. There would be no point of getting secondaries or whatnot if you knew you would be stuck with learning how to fight 70 other characters, either with your main, or your secondary (because people will counter-pick your secondary). Playing a character that is demanding wouldn't suck so much since you know they're not changing anytime soon. Your efforts won't be erased out of nowhere. Patch culture is communication between companies and communities. The company is judge, jury, and executioner on anything the community discovers. With this much power, they become a huge factor and influencer in the community. However, this also suggests support, as the company invests in tournies and stuff. If they stop, the community will have more difficulty going back to self-lead. If the company makes a new game, the community jumps right onto it and forgets the game they were playing. We see this with smash 4, where everyone was tired of dealing with bayo (because we almost fully embraced the patch culture, and lost patience with dealing with overtuned characters). I'm saying this since I think with nintendo being really influential in our community in terms of dictating how we play the game and whatnot, I think the community may have less patience and tolerance for perceived overtuned characters and when nintendo stops patching the game, it's going to be a bit rough.

Also, Dark Pit is cool, though I'm not sure of the pits' versatility in general. Both reflectors are slow and laggy, and they don't have really good projectiles in general. They have suggested abilities in zoning, while being much more geared towards rushdown to me.

 

[The_Bookworm]

Ima just be [somewhat] brief. This looks really bad for those who want a deep meta:

• Motivation is entirely on being the best by any means. this isn't wrong, but when you're basing your characters on being the least requiring as possible, you're intentionally trying to not dip below surface-level depth. The talk about getting secondaries to deny as many characters as possible, and there being a few solo-viable mains because there's only a few that can impose their will freely doesn't make the issue any better either.
• Top players and their tier lists and whose who follow every letter that they type and spit out. Sheep culture is really bad among players in general, and this heavily discourages experimentation.
• Almost no culture of "Diggers," or "Miners." I don't know the best term to categorize a population like this, but those who just digs and tries to find as many interesting things as possible. Inform me as you must, but I haven't seen any (maybe because it's really low-level or hidden).
• Patches, for better or worse, kills any motivation for the above. They balance the game and keep things from going the route of brawl or Third Strike (it was chun that dried the game up, right Emblem Lord ? chun and Yun, though yun was a rushdown character). However, they also heavily discourage experimentation and sharing knowledge.

Brawl was a really bad game for competitive play, but goodness was it explored. Nearly every character and every stage was explored heavily. For example, this bike move by wario:

platform-canceling

ganondorf's super jump

etc.

And you can tell it was explored heavily by the literature it produced. Ima use one example, and that being a diddy guide, https://smashboards.com/threads/the...nd-more-read-this-if-youre-new-4-2-12.236290/. This is a tech guide, with links to various other guides that deal with when your opponent has your banana, dealing with MK's tornado, being reactive vs proactive, a three week discussion on using his tilts. This may or may not be impressive, but compare that to smash 4. there's probably some deep robin guide, or deep duck hunt/pac-man/rosalina guide, but it's not very thorough in relation to the amount of characters there. It still had plenty of material to go through.

TLDR: I'm just not feeling the future for the deepness of the game.

EDIT: I have a feeling patch culture actually causes people to grab onto the path of least resistance with a higher intensity. There would be no point of getting secondaries or whatnot if you knew you would be stuck with learning how to fight 70 other characters, either with your main, or your secondary (because people will counter-pick your secondary). Playing a character that is demanding wouldn't suck so much since you know they're not changing anytime soon. Your efforts won't be erased out of nowhere. Patch culture is communication between companies and communities. The company is judge, jury, and executioner on anything the community discovers. With this much power, they become a huge factor and influencer in the community. However, this also suggests support, as the company invests in tournies and stuff. If they stop, the community will have more difficulty going back to self-lead. If the company makes a new game, the community jumps right onto it and forgets the game they were playing. We see this with smash 4, where everyone was tired of dealing with bayo (because we almost fully embraced the patch culture, and lost patience with dealing with overtuned characters). I'm saying this since I think with nintendo being really influential in our community in terms of dictating how we play the game and whatnot, I think the community may have less patience and tolerance for perceived overtuned characters and when nintendo stops patching the game, it's going to be a bit rough.

Also, Dark Pit is cool, though I'm not sure of the pits' versatility in general. Both reflectors are slow and laggy, and they don't have really good projectiles in general. They have suggested abilities in zoning, while being much more geared towards rushdown to me.

Something I also like to add is that there is technically more in stake. The ESports scene is much bigger now than in Brawl and the first-half of SSB4. This pretty much encourages the player to pick up what appears to be the best option instead of sticking it out with your character.

 

[MG_3989]

I know this has been said before but I feel like Greninja is going to absolutely blow up. Yes he requires precision but most players in the tournament scene won’t have trouble with that. I think his true advantage is his movement and plethora of kill confirms at various percentages. I think players are going to get less scared of his perception as extremely difficult character because his reward far outweighs the time you have to put in to play him compentenly

Once a player masters his movement everything else will fall into place. I’ve been playing with him recently and he’s actually a fairly intuitive character, maybe that’s just to me, but I feel with practice he won’t be much harder to play competently at a high level than somebody like Fox or Pikachu or similar rushdown characters even though he’s not a true rushdown character. I’m not trying to put down the immense skill and precision of top Greninja players either, I just think more people should be less shy to try him out. I also think his ability to compete with and beat swords with his disjointed fair makes him and incredibly valuable character in the meta which will boost him even further

I haven’t been keeping up with the thread because of some personal stuff going on and I may just be parroting a lot of pair Frostbite thoughts but I thought this was worth posting

He also seems like a perfect secondary/co-main to Ness so that was my initial draw to exploring him

Something I also like to add is that there is technically more in stake. The ESports scene is much bigger now than in Brawl and the first-half of SSB4. This pretty much encourages the player to pick up what appears to be the best option instead of sticking it out with your character.

This is a huge point. Top players can’t play as much “for fun” anymore and they need to win and place highly or they risk losing money and sponsorships. A lot of players are making a living off Smash now and while streaming helps most of them want to compete and be sponsored players winning tournaments because you don’t get that good at anything without incredible competitive drive. This is why there will always be an “over saturation” of top 5/10 characters at tournaments, especially majors and super majors. Players need to set themselves up to win in the fastest and most optimal way possible. If other players are taking advantage of these easy to optimize strong characters and you’re a top pro you have to too or you’re going to lose. I don’t love that this is the metagame at the top level, but pros just simply can’t take liberties on things like this

 

[Augi]

Holy cow, people waxing poetic epics on Mewtwo... I'll steer clear. Not very versed in the character.

I would like to toss Meta Knight out into the pool of potential topics. It wasn't TOO long ago that people were tossing him up into High Tier given his speed, off-stage capabilities and a (albeit small) disjointed hitbox.

I'm wondering if this perception has changed? Haven't heard much discussion lately about him.

 

[Sean²]

Something I also like to add is that there is technically more in stake. The ESports scene is much bigger now than in Brawl and the first-half of SSB4. This pretty much encourages the player to pick up what appears to be the best option instead of sticking it out with your character.

Which is why I think probably over half the cast will never receive high level development to actually become good. All this thread ever talks about is "potential", but I'm willing to bet you, or I, or anyone else here simply don't have the man hours it takes to develop a very technical character into a real threat. And waiting for someone else to jump on it won't happen in a game with 70+ characters, when within the top 20, everyone's preferred archetype is covered for the most part. The people that could, won't, because it's their job to place well now.

I'm also willing to bet some of the easier characters are already hitting their ceiling after only a couple months. Wolf is a lot of fun to play but he's a fairly shallow character. The only relatively unexplored tool is Shine, because most of the time Nair works just as well. Lucina and Ike are very simple. Same goes for Pichu, his most advanced tools have already been uncovered. Fox, Cloud, Cloud, Palutena, Pikachu...most of the obvious high tiers - all not far behind on the simplicity scale.

I intentionally left out Wario, it's not that he isn't easy to play, it's because he has his Bike. Any character with an equippable item, will almost always have some extra tech involving that item waiting in the depths. ROB, Snake, Links, Peach, Pac-man, etc.

 

[MG_3989]

Which is why I think probably over half the cast will never receive high level development to actually become good. All this thread ever talks about is "potential", but I'm willing to bet you, or I, or anyone else here simply don't have the man hours it takes to develop a very technical character into a real threat. And waiting for someone else to jump on it won't happen in a game with 70+ characters, when within the top 20, everyone's preferred archetype is covered for the most part. The people that could, won't, because it's their job to place well now.

I'm also willing to bet some of the easier characters are already hitting their ceiling after only a couple months. Wolf is a lot of fun to play but he's a fairly shallow character. The only relatively unexplored tool is Shine, because most of the time Nair works just as well. Lucina and Ike are very simple. Same goes for Pichu, his most advanced tools have already been uncovered. Fox, Cloud, Cloud, Palutena, Pikachu...most of the obvious high tiers - all not far behind on the simplicity scale.

I intentionally left out Wario, it's not that he isn't easy to play, it's because he has his Bike. Any character with an equippable item, will almost always have some extra tech involving that item waiting in the depths. ROB, Snake, Links, Peach, Pac-man, etc.

Ness’s tech has also developed a ton too with DJC Magnet already but he’s a top 15-30 character depending on opinion with a dedicated player base so I guess that kind of proves your point

But in what Smash game have more than 20 characters been viable choices? It’s the same with other fighting games. Maybe with a bigger roster like Ultimate 30 or so characters will be viable but still that’s a low percentage of the cast. Maybe later on more characters will find some tech and be developed and we have to remember it’s early. It’s nothing new for Smash or Fighting Games in general. The top is always stacked and the bottom is left as niche picks and casual play

 

[Rizen]

Which is why I think probably over half the cast will never receive high level development to actually become good. All this thread ever talks about is "potential", but I'm willing to bet you, or I, or anyone else here simply don't have the man hours it takes to develop a very technical character into a real threat. And waiting for someone else to jump on it won't happen in a game with 70+ characters, when within the top 20, everyone's preferred archetype is covered for the most part. The people that could, won't, because it's their job to place well now.

I'm also willing to bet some of the easier characters are already hitting their ceiling after only a couple months. Wolf is a lot of fun to play but he's a fairly shallow character. The only relatively unexplored tool is Shine, because most of the time Nair works just as well. Lucina and Ike are very simple. Same goes for Pichu, his most advanced tools have already been uncovered. Fox, Cloud, Cloud, Palutena, Pikachu...most of the obvious high tiers - all not far behind on the simplicity scale.

I intentionally left out Wario, it's not that he isn't easy to play, it's because he has his Bike. Any character with an equippable item, will almost always have some extra tech involving that item waiting in the depths. ROB, Snake, Links, Peach, Pac-man, etc.

I'm also tired of hearing "potential" at this point. I could spin yarns about YL's top tier potential but the truth is it's better to take the easy road and land a Wolf Bair at 90% than to play YL and combo Fair 1 land>Dtilt>Fair at 140% for the same results. A lot of times potential means doing a series of technical moves to get the same result a top tier gets because they're overtuned and you aren't. I don't blame Tweek for going Wolf rather than YL. I know this sounds nihilistic but it's how competitive games go.

TBT Wolf's shine is slow and Nair is simply the better option unless you want to reflect.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Actullay I wanted to Talk about . Despite many people still thinking he is high tier, I tbink results wise he has been the lest used swordie besides and of you count him.

Man what happened. I guess he is just not the super simple to pick up and fundamental your way to win since you actullay need to manage his limit.
I guess all of this best traits from Sash4 has been usurped by other Swordies in Ultiamte. Plus aside from his up-air and Limit-moves, most of his kill-options are pretty commital now

is your guy now if you just want to swing around an n-air the size of Texas all game and have similar juggle and kill setups with up-air
Side-B is basically Cloud Limit CrossSlash without actullay needing limit he has a better recovery too honestly
Is just overall more solid and easier to use now
Well, seems just like a slightly better Cloud now overall in every way but recovery

I find it hillarious that it is Cloud now is getting outclassed and invalidated now by the FE swordies. Ike most of all lol

 

[MG_3989]

I'm also tired of hearing "potential" at this point. I could spin yarns about YL's top tier potential but the truth is it's better to take the easy road and land a Wolf Bair at 90% than to play YL and combo Fair 1 land>Dtilt>Fair at 140% for the same results. A lot of times potential means doing a series of technical moves to get the same result a top tier gets because they're overtuned and you aren't. I don't blame Tweek for going Wolf rather than YL. I know this sounds nihilistic but it's how competitive games go.

TBT Wolf's shine is slow and Nair is simply the better option unless you want to reflect.

I mean you’re right. Potential doesn’t really mean anything in fighting games, results do. I wish it wasn’t like this and more characters for representation but that’s not realistic especially at the highest level. Top players aren’t playing for fun or to unlock the potential of a character they’re playing to win money and fans and sponsorships and that’s what it comes down to. It’s not nihilistic it’s realistic. Pick the path of least resistance

 

[Augi]

"Potential" is a word filled with the hope of players who want the character they enjoy playing to be considered top tier so they can feel like a great player who picked the right fighter.

And so convoluted strings and long yarns about numbers and the nuances of every move are broken down, splattered across a wall of text and discussed exhaustively in order to build a castle wall in defense against mean internet nay-sayers. When in the end, the one who wins is the best player.

... In before Joker changes the meta ... *snicker*

 

[AxelVDP]

I'm also tired of hearing "potential" at this point.
[...]
I know this sounds nihilistic but it's how competitive games go.

I do not agree. You don't even have to look at other games to see a concrete example: just look at melee Fox and melee Marth/Jiggs
Marth and Jiggs are waaaaaaaay less technical than the spacies, yet Fox and Falco see lots of usage despite being technical because in their case the "potential" really is there and people do tap into that

(tho I do agree that the term gets overused by 'delusional' mid tier mains)

 

[Rizen]

^maybe I should have said 'unrealized potential'. Technical characters can be good but potential is too often used to cover up mediocre stats.

Actullay I wanted to Talk about . Despite many people still thinking he is high tier, I tbink results wise he has been the lest used swordie besides and of you count him.

Man what happened. I guess he is just not the super simple to pick up and fundamental your way to win since you actullay need to manage his limit.
I guess all of this best traits from Sash4 has been usurped by other Swordies in Ultiamte

is your charachter now if you just want to swing around an n-air the size of Texas and has similar juggle and kill setups with up-air
Side-B is basically Cloud Limit-side B with out needed limit he has a better recovery too honestly
Is just overall more solid and easier to use now

I find it hillarious that Cloud is getting outclassed and invalidated now by the FE swordies

I agree with all this be still think 's high tier, albeit on the lower end. Cloud lacks Ike's reward but his moveset and mobility are both solid. One thing making limit timed did was allow Cloud to use blade beams; in SSB4 limit charge was almost always the better option.

 

[MG_3989]

Also it’s important to remember that to most of us it doesn’t matter who’s winning tournaments and what top players are doing. Of course we all wanna see our mains represented and winning but that’s not gonna happen for 90% or more of us. The thing is that doesn’t mean we can’t still try and unlock the potential of characters and figure out new tech. We can still play our mains and have fun with them and try to win locals with them. There’s nothing stopping us from doing that

I’m lucky with Ness to have the representation and loyalists he does because if he didn’t he wouldn’t be nearly as optimized as he is now and would probably be in a much worse position and I don’t have to figure out as much as most people would with certain characters because it’s done for me but I would still try regardless. I think sometimes we forget that this game is about having fun. Yes we’re all competitive and love to compete here but if we put too much into what happens at the top levels with what characters and forget to have fun then what’s the point?

We can come here to share what we learn and think of certain characters of all tiers. We can come share the potential we think characters have and we should still be excited about our mains. We can try to push our mains as far as we’re capable of and come here and discuss it with like minded people. We can overate or underrate our mains and it doesn’t matter. As long as we keep competing and discussing what we find and matchups and tech here we’ll all get better and make the game more enjoyable

 

[Ziodyne 21]

I agree with all this be still think 's high tier, albeit on the lower end. Cloud lacks Ike's reward but his moveset and mobility are both solid. One thing making limit timed did was allow Cloud to use blade beams; in SSB4 limit charge was almost always the better option.

Also perament limit in smash 4 also gave him the overall speed buff back in Smash 4 he could just hold onto until you needed to up-b to recover or if you lost your stock. Tweek in paticular liked to stay in limit mode more often that now to take advantage of that. But now that is not an option. You got 15 seconds to get the right opening or position to use the right limit move

 

[MG_3989]

Also perament limit in smash 4 also gave him the overall speed buff back in Smash 4 he could just hold onto until you needed to up-b to recover or if you lost your stock. Tweek in paticular liked to stay in limit mode more often that now to take advantage of that. But now that is not an option. You got 15 seconds to get the right opening or position to use the right limit move

I didn’t play Smash 4 but Cloud’s recovery is one of his main weaknesses in this game and only having limit for 15 seconds really hurts that. It’s not like you can always have limit when you need to recover nor plan to have limit when you’re being edgeguarded or in disadvantage offstage. You just hope you have it if you’re off stage and if you burn it before trying to land another move and whiff and then get knocked offstage you’re kind of screwed

Cloud still has advantages and he’s still scary to deal with but I can imagine how much better he’d be with an infinite limit, especially for recovery

 

[Sean²]

Ness’s tech has also developed a ton too with DJC Magnet already but he’s a top 15-30 character depending on opinion with a dedicated player base so I guess that kind of proves your point

But in what Smash game have more than 20 characters been viable choices? It’s the same with other fighting games. Maybe with a bigger roster like Ultimate 30 or so characters will be viable but still that’s a low percentage of the cast. Maybe later on more characters will find some tech and be developed and we have to remember it’s early. It’s nothing new for Smash or Fighting Games in general. The top is always stacked and the bottom is left as niche picks and casual play

None, but most had a ton of exploration regardless. I don't know what's going to happen with the Kens, Ryus, or Shulks of this game with the current mentality. Kids are jumping into Smash with a goal of getting PRed now, not so much to be the best with their chosen character.

The only seemingly high-tech "low tier" character getting lots of exploration are ICs, but I haven't seen much beyond twitter combos.

TBT Wolf's shine is slow and Nair is simply the better option unless you want to reflect.

False does some cool stuff with his Shine for different mixups. People expect Nair knockback, less so Shine knockback. It can catch people off guard.

Actullay I wanted to Talk about . Despite many people still thinking he is high tier, I tbink results wise he has been the lest used swordie besides and of you count him.

Man what happened. I guess he is just not the super simple to pick up and fundamental your way to win since you actullay need to manage his limit.
I guess all of this best traits from Sash4 has been usurped by other Swordies in Ultiamte. Plus aside from his up-air and Limit-moves, most of his kill-options are pretty commital now

is your guy now if you just want to swing around an n-air the size of Texas all game and have similar juggle and kill setups with up-air
Side-B is basically Cloud Limit CrossSlash without actullay needing limit he has a better recovery too honestly
Is just overall more solid and easier to use now

I find it hillarious that it is Cloud now is getting outclassed and invalidated now by the FE swordies

Cloud is fine. It's just noticeable because everyone who played him in S4 because he was top tier dropped him. Which, to be frank, were 90% of Cloud players. He was super easy and rewarding, almost the perfect secondary to whomever your main was. It's the reason I played him. I had no emotional connection to Cloud at all. The reason Bayonetta still sees the light of day is because she wasn't a 'fundamentals' character. You had to learn Bayo to play Bayo, you just had to learn Smash to play Cloud. He just takes a tiny bit more precision now, and people are using the mentality of "direct upgrades in x, y, z character" as a reason to pick Ike or Lucina.

 

[MG_3989]

None, but most had a ton of exploration regardless. I don't know what's going to happen with the Kens, Ryus, or Shulks of this game with the current mentality. Kids are jumping into Smash with a goal of getting PRed now, not so much to be the best with their chosen character.

The only seemingly high-tech "low tier" character getting lots of exploration are ICs, but I haven't seen much beyond twitter combos.

Yeah I understand that but like it’s been said Smash is a legit esport now. People are making a living off of it. Kids want to be pro Smash players now just like kids growing up have always wanted to be pro Baseball players and Football players. Their quickest avenue to that is playing the best and simplest characters in the game. I’m sure there are 1000s of 10 year olds who want to be the next Zackray or Leo and they’re gonna play the same characters that these guys are playing to try and become pros. It’s the same with the older population too, there are still people in their 20s and maybe even 30s who never saw Smash as a legit career before (the people that would experiment with low tiers) do now and are just trying to win at any cost

I’ll make a baseball analogy for anyone who knows baseball. Say a kid growing up wants to be an MLB pitcher. The first thing he’s going to learn is how to throw a good fastball (Lets call a fastball Wolf) because that’s the most optimal and consistent pitch and the easiest to throw. Kids don’t learn how to throw a knuckleball if they want to be a pro pitcher because it’s an extremely niche pitch that’s very difficult to throw and only viable in very rare situations (lets call a knuckleball Wii Fit Trainer). It’s not the optimal path to becoming an MLB pitcher. Now let’s say there’s a pitch that’s difficult to throw like a curveball (let’s call a curveball Peach) but has a ton of value and viability. Then people will learn it

Idk if that comparison makes sense and it’s not perfect but Smash is now a sport like baseball and football, etc... and now kids dream of being pro Smash players (even 20 something’s do) and winning EVO just like kids dream of winning a World Series so there won’t be as much experimentation as there was in the past when people didn’t view at as a viable career and sport

That’s just the reality of competitive video games today at the highest level. There are positives and negatives

 

[N8than]

Has anyone really taken a look at 's tilts? Specifically his down tilt. Just curious...

 

[Ienzo97]

With all the talk about , I'd like to talk about my other main for a minute. I'm unconvinced this character is particularly good in this game.

He still has pretty much all of his weaknesses from Smash 4, he's still incredibly weak at low percents and his frame data is still terrible. Aura Sphere charge got a really weird nerf in Ultimate where the hitbox shrinks at full charge. This makes the charge hitbox deceivingly smaller, which makes ledgetrapping with it much worse. His weight was also reduced pretty significantly from Smash 4, so he dies earlier. This is obviously bad news for Lucario, since he needs to reach high percents to build up aura.

This is what I'm talking about with the AS hitbox being deceptive.

I don't want to sound too negative because I actually prefer Lucario's design in this game to Smash 4, he seems more consistent and less of a walking aura gimmick. He's still a lot of fun to play, I just think he struggles in this game and I hope the balancing team notice this.

 

[The_Bookworm]

With all the talk about , I'd like to talk about my other main for a minute. I'm unconvinced this character is particularly good in this game.

He still has pretty much all of his weaknesses from Smash 4, he's still incredibly weak at low percents and his frame data is still terrible. Aura Sphere charge got a really weird nerf in Ultimate where the hitbox shrinks at full charge. This makes the charge hitbox deceivingly smaller, which makes ledgetrapping with it much worse. His weight was also reduced pretty significantly from Smash 4, so he dies earlier. This is obviously bad news for Lucario, since he needs to reach high percents to build up aura.

This is what I'm talking about with the AS hitbox being deceptive.

I don't want to sound too negative because I actually prefer Lucario's design in this game to Smash 4, he seems more consistent and less of a walking aura gimmick. He's still a lot of fun to play, I just think he struggles in this game and I hope the balancing team notice this.

Aura Sphere still seems like a great ledgetrapping move. Despite that strange inconsistency, it still does it's job well at the ledge. Lucario isn't that weak at low aura, especially when compared to SSB4, which thankfully makes aura less of a gimmick. He has a bunch of really powerful stuff behind him, which combined with the weakening of shields and some QoL buffs to some of his attacks, makes his presence scary.

Lucario players are still doing well with the character. Tsu- didn't really get too far in Frostbite (he choked super hard against a Pichu player, and lost the set while having a three-stock lead), he still does well outside of that.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Has anyone really taken a look at 's tilts? Specifically his down tilt. Just curious...

It got nerfed, it doesn't combo as well as it did in Smash 4.

 

[Ienzo97]

Aura Sphere still seems like a great ledgetrapping move. Despite that strange inconsistency, it still does it's job well at the ledge. Lucario isn't that weak at low aura, especially when compared to SSB4, which thankfully makes aura less of a gimmick. He has a bunch of really powerful stuff behind him, which combined with the weakening of shields and some QoL buffs to some of his attacks, makes his presence scary.

Lucario players are still doing well with the character. Tsu- didn't really get too far in Frostbite (he choked super hard against a Pichu player, and lost the set while having a three-stock lead), he still does well outside of that.

Some very valid points here, I'm probably being too pessimistic. You're right about Lucario at low aura, he's definitely better than before but he's still not great. I think he's mid tier at best but I'd love to be proven wrong.

 

[KakuCP9]

I wrote this a while ago regarding Luc's ledge-trapping.

Dude. Lucario's ledge set-play is still godlike. All you need to do is stand at ledge roll distance from the ledge and charge Aura sphere.
-Enemy does neutral get-up/get up attack: Fire the sphere
-Enemy rolls; Gets caught in the Aura sphere charge and eats a ASC combo/mix up

The only thing you need to call out is get up jump with short hop Aura sphre and even then, most of the time it's low risk since they can rarely threaten you while trying to land. Hell, if certain characters are tall enough, you can short hop, fire the AS and it will still hit their neutral get up (but this needs to labbed).
Also B-revering the ASC to ledge when they pick a ledge option or dash-dancing at the ledge is a good way to set up some ASC while avoiding ledge-drop aerials with proper movement rather than just standing at the ledge and hoping they get caught.

Also another option is just jump up and down right at the ledge shuffling between empty hop, ASC and air dodge. This causes the opponent to think very hard about how they get-up because air dodge beats (most) ledge drop aerials, ASC beats most get-up options and empty hop just keeps your options open (you can also d-air someone if they hang at the ledge too long for a stage-spike.) It was an option in S4, but is now buffed by the jumpsquat and charge special changes. I don't like how deceptive the hitbox on fully charged ASC either, but I can see one reason for this. Alot of ASC conversions require the opponent to be closer to the Lucario and a large hitbox can make it difficult (again, I'm not sure if the hitbox was even intentional or this is by design). Similarly, the hitlag change to AS was probably done for the same reason that Palu's nair had the change was to 'speed' up the multi-hits and pace of the game, but took away a good chunk of frame advantage to do the conversions. According to Lavani, his old combos are still possible, but are more difficult for whatever reason (whether it was an accident based on my hypothesis or the devs actually wanted to nerf ASC stuff).
I still like him alot and the engine changes gave him a fair amount of new toys to play with (I really wish I could lab the charge special stuff), but changes to ASC and his frame 7(!) jab kinda sour me on the character. I don't think he's bad by any means, but I'm going wait and see where the dev team takes him as well explore other members of the cast.

Edit: At worst, the ASC stuff resembles more of a tech chase scenario where you call out options based on your opponents position and make a measured risk on trying to hit them with quick and easy option (grab,d-air) or powerful,but unwieldy option (b-air,U-smash). While not terrible, it a bit of a step down from ASC->U-smash/U-air being a true combo than a read.

 

[Rocketjay8]

I wrote this a while ago regarding Luc's ledge-trapping.


Also another option is just jump up and down right at the ledge shuffling between empty hop, ASC and air dodge. This causes the opponent to think very hard about how they get-up because air dodge beats (most) ledge drop aerials, ASC beats most get-up options and empty hop just keeps your options open (you can also d-air someone if they hang at the ledge too long for a stage-spike.) It was an option in S4, but is now buffed by the jumpsquat and charge special changes. I don't like how deceptive the hitbox on fully charged ASC either, but I can see one reason for this. Alot of ASC conversions require the opponent to be closer to the Lucario and a large hitbox can make it difficult (again, I'm not sure if the hitbox was even intentional or this is by design). Similarly, the hitlag change to AS was probably done for the same reason that Palu's nair had the change was to 'speed' up the multi-hits and pace of the game, but took away a good chunk of frame advantage to do the conversions. According to Lavani, his old combos are still possible, but are more difficult for whatever reason (whether it was an accident based on my hypothesis or the devs actually wanted to nerf ASC stuff).
I still like him alot and the engine changes gave him a fair amount of new toys to play with (I really wish I lab the charge special stuff), but changes to ASC and his frame 7(!) jab kinda sour me on the character. I don't think he's bad by any means, but I'm going wait and see where the dev team takes him as well explore other members of the cast.

Frame 7?! Holy crap that is really bad for no reason. It doesn't have the range or damage to justify it to be that slow.

 

[Diddy Kong]

I saw Zinoto, the only Diddy player with some confidence in the character in Ultimate, with his play in Frostbite and whoa... Diddy does really have the worst disadvantage I feel, and it doesn’t help AT ALL that his recovery is the easiest to exploit / edgeguard / intercept. Even my own damn banana can kill my recovery.

Diddy’s advantage state is still pretty good however. But what he wants is to grab, and he has too little options to get grabs easily. Dash attack is good but it makes you lose momentum, which is vital for Diddy’s game plan, and it’s relatively easy to predict what he’s going for after Dash Attack anyway.

I think he’ll only trive as a counter pick for certain matches and if the enemy has no matchup experience against Diddy. He’s quite predictable I feel when people figure him out. I just wish his air speed would be buffed and F Air had the range and hit box duration of Smash 4. That would make him way more fun to play.

I can’t help but pick him 99% of my time though. Don’t get me wrong. There’s no character more fun to me. But with fun and games you don’t always win games, unfortunately.

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Game is less than three months old, so I don't think discussions on long-term depth are going to be very fruitful at this stage. Weirder characters are naturally going to take longer to figure out, and I don't know that the fact that *only* the top players and results are how most tech is found, anyways... It's typically found by dedicated character mains or lab monsters like My Smash Corner and such. I guess I'm just wishing to spread a message of patience.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Yes discussing things long-term isn't productive right now, but thinking in short term is that what happened to SDX will probably happen to other top players with character crisis and that aren't happy with their tournaments placing if they don't improve, maybe they will switch to be streamers first and competidors second, or return when DLC is out, but probably drop out completely.

 

[MG_3989]

Yes discussing things long-term isn't productive right now, but thinking in short term is that what happened to SDX will probably happen to other top players with character crisis and that aren't happy with their tournaments placing if they don't improve, maybe they will switch to be streamers first and competidors second, or return when DLC is out, but probably drop out completely.

I think this will depend on the player and their ultimate aim (no pun intended lol), if they’re making a living off of Smash or if they play on the side with another job, if they feel like certain top tier MUs are an extreme disadvantage, and other factors like that. I do think you’re right tho that we may see players dropping their main like SDX did. There will also be players who push through with their main and may even see top 8s and very high results eventually

 

[Justin Allen Goldschmidt]

Yes discussing things long-term isn't productive right now, but thinking in short term is that what happened to SDX will probably happen to other top players with character crisis and that aren't happy with their tournaments placing if they don't improve, maybe they will switch to be streamers first and competidors second, or return when DLC is out, but probably drop out completely.

Players that quit that easily aren't necessarily the best for the game in the first place... Being truly dedicated is what it takes to stick out the tough times and see to a better future for the meta, the viewers, sponsors, etc. I could be wrong, but I'm fairly optimistic that the game will be just fine, and the players that choose to stay and figure out their tish are the ones that would be the kind to really push the game's limits. That doesn't mean that the ones that don't stick around are bad players or bad people or whatever, just that the game isn't right for them. I'd rather have them not waste their time, anyways.

 

[Jotun873]

I honestly believe ultimate will be around for years after patches are over.

Smash 4 dying almost as quick as it started honestly doesnt have anything to do this imaginary "patch culture". People forget that the wii u sold poorly, balance was probably almost as bad as brawl, customs on or off was a constant debate and most people who did have wii u also played brawl to some extent and i really doubt anyone wanted to deal with another character as blantantly overpowered as metaknight since bayo only had one small balance patch to "nerf" her.


Ultimate doesnt suffer half the problems that wii u did and in fact its been sped up compared to past titles (that aren't melee).

Heck, in terms of balance we still have yet to pin down a clear "best" since pichu couldnt even break top 5 at frostbite.

Wolf isnt really anything special beyond good fundamentals and a slightly too-large-for-its-own-good-blaster.

If we are still arguing over who is the best three months in while saying everyone "has potential" on a best seller with a very VERY popular system I say its a good sign

 

[SwagGuy99]

Holy cow, people waxing poetic epics on Mewtwo... I'll steer clear. Not very versed in the character.

I would like to toss Meta Knight out into the pool of potential topics. It wasn't TOO long ago that people were tossing him up into High Tier given his speed, off-stage capabilities and a (albeit small) disjointed hitbox.

I'm wondering if this perception has changed? Haven't heard much discussion lately about him.

I'm going to be honest, I still think is very good. His game plan has changed a bit from Smash 4 but his character didn't go through too many significant changes outside of the nerfs to dash attack and the buffs to neutral-b.

His edgeguarding is strong, his mobility is good, his recovery is good, his range is nothing special but not horrible, and overall, he seems like a very well rounded character with few flaws outside of his weight and the fact that none of his attacks stay active for very long. To me, he seems very strong and sits near characters like and near the top of high tier. Others may not share this opinion but his kit seems too good for him to not be this high.

Actullay I wanted to Talk about . Despite many people still thinking he is high tier, I tbink results wise he has been the lest used swordie besides and of you count him.

Man what happened. I guess he is just not the super simple to pick up and fundamental your way to win since you actullay need to manage his limit.
I guess all of this best traits from Sash4 has been usurped by other Swordies in Ultiamte. Plus aside from his up-air and Limit-moves, most of his kill-options are pretty commital now

is your guy now if you just want to swing around an n-air the size of Texas all game and have similar juggle and kill setups with up-air
Side-B is basically Cloud Limit CrossSlash without actullay needing limit he has a better recovery too honestly
Is just overall more solid and easier to use now
Well, seems just like a slightly better Cloud now overall in every way but recovery

I find it hillarious that it is Cloud now is getting outclassed and invalidated now by the FE swordies. Ike most of all lol

I think Cloud is still high high tier/low top tier because he has less flaws/his flaws hurt him less than other sword characters like Chrom and Ike, even if his strengths are overall weaker. Cloud's biggest issue is his recovery but Chrom's recovery is leagues worse, even if his strengths are better. Ike is slow and has a linear recovery but kills a bit earlier, but Cloud is fast but with a linear recovery and still kills relatively early. I do think, however, that Roy and Lucina are definitely better than him.