Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[SwagGuy99]

Well i think what defines a "clone" not is not so simple as "the share similar buttons or specials" I mean Marth and Lucina kinda play differently enough from each other now despite being cut from the same cloth so to speak. The same goes for other pairs / play, diffrently from each other
and / play MUCH differently from each other due to having a lot of unique buttons and special input motions.

are the only ones whos diffrences, if any are mostly negligable execept for some special cases. I/E the different elemental properties between Simon/Richters Holy Water

I think that all of the echos are clones EXCEPT for who seems to be more akin to clones like or who have noticeable enough differences for them to have completely different attributes, playstyles, and attack functions.

Also, just a random side thought on the topic of clones, I think that several of the clones/semi-clones in Ultimate don't seem to be significantly better or worse than their counterparts like and or and . This doesn't apply to all of them but I have found this to be something interesting about Ultimate.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Well what I mean by my last post is that some are saying that if gets a numbers change to endlag or something, has to as well. I don't think that really has to be the case. is the one in need of some fine tuning here, not . Thus.... buff and leave alone.

 

[Lore]

Yeah the tip differences alone prove that Marth and Lucina aren't exact clones. I don't know why people have thought otherwise.

 

[Nah]

Yeah the tip differences alone prove that Marth and Lucina aren't exact clones. I don't know why people have thought otherwise.

Clones have never been literally 100% the same. There's always been some minute difference between them. Doesn't mean that they're not clones. In Smash, characters with similarities have always been divided into three categories:

1) Alts. These are the reskins that you can choose from in the same manner that you choose your character's color. These are things like the Koopalings, or Alph.

2) Clones. As of Ultimate, the official term is "echo fighters". They are very similar to each other, sharing the same moves and specs but usually have some sort of small difference between them, warranting a separate CSS slot. Examples are Marth and Lucina, Richter and Simon Belmont, Samus and Dark Samus, etc.

3) Semi-clones. Characters that share an obvious base similarity, but are less similar to each other than regular clones. This would be characters like Mario and Dr.Mario, or Marth and Roy.

 

[Lore]

Marth and Lucina's tipper differences are absolutely enough to classify them as different than Richter + Simon or Samus + Dark Samus. The Tipper difference changes every single one of their hitboxes, while the other echoes have much more minute differences.

I don't understand why you felt the need to argue the semantics of me saying they aren't "exact clones." The point remains that I believe it to be firmly wrong to assume a balance change for Marth equals Lucina receiving the exact same change.

 

[Heracr055]

Okay so here's a topic I haven't seen in awhile, and hopefully one that doesn't seem as annoying as implied in the Smash 4 Comp Impressions thread: Pikachu. There's been some time and players (both top and otherwise) shifted their perception of Pikachu as the best character fairly quickly (and even place him below Pichu). However, with Frostbite being the exception, Pikachu has been doing fairly well, with Esam defeating Tweek and getting into top 8 at Genesis. I can see him in top of high and getting better if Pichu ever gets nerfed (which is likely).

 

[Nah]

I don't understand why you felt the need to argue the semantics of me saying they aren't "exact clones." The point remains that I believe it to be firmly wrong to assume a balance change for Marth equals Lucina receiving the exact same change.

I never said that they should share all the same changes in patches

 

[Lore]

So you're just being pedantic, gotcha. Thanks for the contribution regardless.

 

[MG_3989]

I think that all of the echos are clones EXCEPT for who seems to be more akin to clones like or who have noticeable enough differences for them to have completely different attributes, playstyles, and attack functions.

Also, just a random side thought on the topic of clones, I think that several of the clones/semi-clones in Ultimate don't seem to be significantly better or worse than their counterparts like and or and . This doesn't apply to all of them but I have found this to be something interesting about Ultimate.

First of all Lucas is not a semi-clone of Ness. Their play styles are completely different. Their tilts, aerials, smashes, and the way their specials function are completely different. Lucas is a zoner and a boxer and Ness is an all arounder who can zone but would much rather get in, play aggro, and rack up damage and combo with his aerials

Ness is much better than Lucas in this game. Ness has a better combo game, better movement, a plethora of kill options and can probably kill as well as anyone in the game, more confirms, a better PK Thunder (not for recovery but for every other purpose and Ness doesn’t even use PK Thunder to recover he uses air dodge), a far better magnet (which is an extremely important tool and buff), and a subjectively better PK Fire that’s used as a combo starter. Ness is one of the best edgeguarders in the game with fair off stage, angled PK Fire into Dair, PK Thunder, and one of the best ledge traps in the game in yo-yo. Lucas doesn’t have nearly that strong a kit. Ness has also been getting great results at locals (and no it’s not just Awestin, FOW, and BestNess, go look at the thread) and has placed at least 33rd in every super major so far with 4 top 33rd finishes between Genesis and Frostbite. Ness is top 15-20 character in my eyes and I know a lot of you disagree but this isn’t the time for this argument and I’ve backed this up 100%

Lucas on the other hand is a zoner and a boxer who is out classed by other zoners. He doesn’t have nearly as cohesive a game plan as Ness and his combo game isn’t any where near Ness’s. His magnet is less effective, he’s a less effective edgeguarder, and all he’s got over Ness is PK Freeze and his recovery. While he has kill throws he doesn’t have the nearly the combo game Ness has nor the aerials nor the raw kill power or confirms. This would be fine if he was phenomenal at his roll but he’s not. I’m not even saying Lucas is bad because I think he’s decent. We also haven’t seen near results from Lucas in locals, regionals, or Majors. Comparing them is silly anyway because they’re vastly different characters

People shouldn’t be comparing and in the first place anyway because they’re not semi-clones and I know I said I’d stop with the Ness arguments but this one I had to put to rest. Frankly Lucas isn’t in the same league as Ness in Ultimate

Also Mario is way better than Doc

 

[ATH_]

Okay so here's a topic I haven't seen in awhile, and hopefully one that doesn't seem as annoying as implied in the Smash 4 Comp Impressions thread: Pikachu. There's been some time and players (both top and otherwise) shifted their perception of Pikachu as the best character fairly quickly (and even place him below Pichu). However, with Frostbite being the exception, Pikachu has been doing fairly well, with Esam defeating Tweek and getting into top 8 at Genesis. I can see him in top of high and getting better if Pichu ever gets nerfed (which is likely).

Pikachu certainly would get better if Pichu was nerfed, which is likely. However, this is a blanketing statement in disguise? All characters, except the nerfed, get better when a character is nerfed. Well, technically there are exceptions. Anyone who handles the nerfed character really well because less useful. Outside of that though, the large majority of the cast would get better with a nerf to any top tier.

I don't think Pikachu is bad, even slightly, but Pichu is definitely the higher skill-cap character who has some really bad downsides for less experienced players. As Ike I've handled many (and there is a LOT) of bad Pichu players because they're too aggressive with their weight, when they don't have the skill to really take those risks against such a heavy-hitting character. Point is, Pikachu is far more consistent. As you said, other than Frostbite, ESAM has been taking Pikachu really far very consistently. The only Pichu player (that I'm aware of) at a top level is Void, and he has seemingly placed higher than ESAM consistently, but whether that's the player or the character is up for debate.

Personally, I'd say Void just has more complex of a playstyle than ESAM, one that's significantly harder to pin down. Watching MKLeo vs Void (Genesis 6) was so intense because it really felt like Void could turn it around at any point. It's hard to say if the character is doing the work for him.

 

[Shaya]

Lucina's bair is overtuned. As was her ftilt and her fsmash.
These are smash4 'carry-overs', carry-over decisions are often some of the most painful and stupid when it comes to Smash.

If they made her back air have the same proportion of damage as the rest of their aerials, Lucina would likely no longer be considered a top tier threat, and probably wouldn't be considered that much better than Marth anymore either (this is like a 20-30%+ KO difference, easily).

And it's only because Marth can't practically tipper opponents with back air when he's rising from a jump due to the hitbox shifts.
You may think Lucina holds up better otherwise but I genuinely doubt it.

"Fix" their back air hitbox placement, and Marth no longer has 75% (or more) of his optimal back air use cases shafted and Lucina loses that pragmatic advantage she has over him.
Or roll back Lucina's back air damage, as the design reason for her bair to be overtuned is no longer applicable.

I'd prefer for Marth to be on Luci's current level again. Albeit in my opinion, by design, Marth's always gonna be either outright better or outright worse.

I actually do have some faith in the balance team in regards to this, the understanding of their nuance among Marcina players was incredibly uncommon, but the fact that they focused on ftilt/bair indicates they might know what they're doing (unlike for Sheik, ;_; ).

The oversight of 'shifting hitboxes' downwards to rectify "blind spots" in start up had [some] unforeseen consequences.
Going by what they've done to up tilt hitboxes, there are good signs they're conscious of the impact of those shifts (or are willing to cover those blindspots with actual active hitboxes and not dysfunction inducing bandaids like with back air).

Alternatively they could just up the knockback growth on more of Marth's tipper moves (particularly aerials) - this is currently the case of back air (up air would benefit the most from this, the move kinda sucks at KOing).

 

[Heracr055]

Yeah I was thinking that Pikachu would be more consistent down the line, but I forgot to mention it in my post. And I meant to reference Pichu nerfs in relation to that as a piece of it (but not the entire basis of Pikachu becoming relevant again) but forgot to tie it back to that theme.

 

[J0eyboi]

I don't think Pikachu is bad, even slightly, but Pichu is definitely the higher skill-cap character who has some really bad downsides for less experienced players.

I... don't get what you're trying to imply here. Yes, Pichu's weight punishes him hard for making mistakes, but so does Pikachu's, and Pichu is unambiguously the easier character to play, especially at lower levels.

Also Pichu's skill cap being higher is very arguable.

 

[KakuCP9]

I agree with Joey. If you mean finding the fastest way to rip out someone's stock as Pichu, then I see why one would think she would have a higher skill cap. But a skill cap encapsulates all stages of play and when it comes to neutral (and even disadvantage), Pichu will cap out earlier due to her lack of options in those areas. Pika on the other hand has quick attack which many applications in all game states and thus has the higher cap. However, Pika has a higher floor due his setups not being as free so Pichu makes the more attractive pick in the short term.

 

[ATH_]

I... don't get what you're trying to imply here. Yes, Pichu's weight punishes him hard for making mistakes, but so does Pikachu's, and Pichu is unambiguously the easier character to play, especially at lower levels.

Also Pichu's skill cap being higher is very arguable.

Yeah, my bad. It was a tangent based on my own observations with less-skilled players, but that isn't the metric we should be looking at here.

I do think it definitely it arguable, considering lightning loops and the amount of insanity Void has brought to the character. I'd never call Pichu easy, myself.

 

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

Can someone explain to me why Wario isnt commonly discussed as top 5 in the game? From my layman perspective, range issues dont seem to be hold him back in this game. I was hoping Tweek would go Wario against Leo and that honestly went far better than I even expected. Not to mention how it's possible that disjoint will become a bit less oppressive over time as parrying becomes more and more common.

Even without waft he seems insane and with the waft it seems like one of the rawest x factors I've ever seen. Maybe I'm underestimating Wario's struggle when he fishes for a kill but just going by results, I think Tweek with Wario is an edge above the rest of the competition.

 

[Krysco]

Couple tangents in mind I'll try to keep short:

For one, I'm not sure why people bring up the weight difference so much when discussing Pichu vs Pikachu. Pichu has a weight value of 62 compared to Pika's 79, which I suppose is a big difference, being the equivalent of going from Lucina's 90 to Ike's 107. However, Pikachu is still tied for being the 6th lightest character in the game (for reference have 79, has 78, have 77, have 75, has 68 and the aforementioned 62 of ). Pikachu will live longer than Pichu but won't exactly live long in most circumstances. Though to be fair, movement specs play a lot in survivability as well, being able to more quickly avoid attacks and Pikachu isn't too much bigger than Pichu, making him still a difficult target to hit. Pikachu has a better run speed, the same air acceleration and initial dash speed, worse top air speed and while his fall speed is worse, they have nearly identical fast fall speeds. Pikachu also doesn't have the self damage so perhaps it is significant. Just comes off as a bit odd to me that weight gets brought up a lot when regarding the rats when Pikachu isn't exactly heavy.

Speaking of weight, while it hasn't been brought up recently, a similar situation happens with Ridley where people like to group him with the super heavies but then also mention how he's 'much' lighter. He's still tied for being the 8th heaviest character in the game (again for reference at 135, at 133, at 127, at 118, at 116, at 112, at 108 and all at 107). Ridley is only 9 units off from the lightest super heavy in the game. He has the hurtbox size of one (and recovery for that matter...) but he's not too much lighter than them.

As for the clone talk, there's varying degrees of clones and a semi-clone is still a type of clone. Characters like Luigi, Falco, Lucas, Ganondorf, Roy and Isabelle are all often considered semi clones because their moveset has a base in another characters moveset. They're obviously not as similar as the echoes but they aren't completely original either. Not a big deal for a character to be called a semi-clone. It's just an acknowledgement of where the moveset branches off from.

As for the patch talk with echoes, we've already had Ryu and Ken affected differently by a patch in this game and back in Smash 4 we had Dark Pit and Pit get some separate changes in patches like Pit getting a bigger hitbox on his rapid jab finisher and Dark Pit getting a stronger side special while Pit's stayed the same. It's entirely possible for Lucina to get nerfed without Marth being touched or for Marth to get buffed without Lucina getting it. Oddly enough, the 2.0.0 patch notes mention changes that Samus got that Dark Samus didn't and yet the two got the exact same changes. Someone simply forgot to list one of the changes for Dark Samus.

Last thing I'd like to comment on is the Zelda post, specifically in regards to priority. Unless I'm mistaken, I don't believe any of Zelda's grounded normals have transcendent priority or trample. Due to this, the priority of her moves is purely based on their damage values with jab, fsmash and usmash being multihits which have comparatively low damage until the final hits. Jab does 2.5% before the rapid jab and then does 0.2% until the 3% finisher, Fsmash does 1% until the admittedly powerful 13% finisher. Usmash does 2% then 0.8% and ends with 5%. Two of her specials are projectiles and therefore not generally used for clanking purposes. Not sure if grounded Nayru's Love or Farore's Wind can clank though the former also has intangibility during the hitbox I believe (it did during Smash 4 anyway after patches) and it'd be rare for Farore's Wind to clank if it even can due to it being a teleport. The more noteworthy moves for clanking or beating out moves are ftilt doing 12% with the magic and 10% with the arm, dash attack doing 12% with the sweetspot, followed by the less impressive 9% sourspot and the 6% late hit and then dsmash doing 12% at the front and 10% at the back. Most aerials can't clank with anything but projectiles although there are some exceptions like the projectile ones such as G&W's fair and Mega Man's pellets and then for whatever reason in Smash 4, Olimar's Pikmin aerials could clank with non-projectiles too. A reminder that a move flat out beats another if it does 9% or more so Zelda's powerful grounded moves can beat out weaker moves like most jabs and some tilts and dash attacks depending on the character.

 

[Browny]

Can someone explain to me why Wario isnt commonly discussed as top 5 in the game? From my layman perspective, range issues dont seem to be hold him back in this game. I was hoping Tweek would go Wario against Leo and that honestly went far better than I even expected. Not to mention how it's possible that disjoint will become a bit less oppressive over time as parrying becomes more and more common.

Even without waft he seems insane and with the waft it seems like one of the rawest x factors I've ever seen. Maybe I'm underestimating Wario's struggle when he fishes for a kill but just going by results, I think Tweek with Wario is an edge above the rest of the competition.

He's easily top 5. If tweek was honest and stopped downplaying his main like all top players do (Remember samsoras peach matchup chart where she goes even with, or loses to half the cast? lol), then people who acknowledge you can't just win multiple stacked majors and not be top tier.

 

[Rizen]

had transcendent magic attacks in previous games. IDK but that might still be true. The problem with Z's multihit attacks is if they trade with anything but the final hit, the opponent takes practically no damage and Zelda takes a lot.

 

[Ffamran]

had transcendent magic attacks in previous games. IDK but that might still be true. The problem with Z's multihit attacks is if they trade with anything but the final hit, the opponent takes practically no damage and Zelda takes a lot.

Her frame data is available: https://smashboards.com/threads/the...ose-hitbox-visuals-that-are-appearing.455711/.

 

[Krysco]

Ah, my apologies for the Zelda ignorance then. It appears all of her magic based attacks are transcendent. Quite useful for beating out other attacks then as long as they outrange the hitbox although I believe that means they can't beat out projectiles then? Doesn't entirely matter since Zelda has a reflector, teleport and the traditional means with jumping and shielding. Does mean that if she commits to a magic based attack she leaves herself open to projectiles. Still a nice tradeoff for being able to just beat out attacks. I'm too used to people referring to priority incorrectly, hence why I delved into it.

 

[donnaddrake]

I agree with 4 of these characters. However, sticks out like a sore thumb. He has so many fundamental issues that stop him from being good such as:

• Slow Ground Speed
• Slow Air Speed
• Poor Frame Data
• Poor Combo Game
• High Landing Lag on Aerials
• Gets Juggled a Lot

He has too many issues to be anywhere near decent. I'm not saying he's complete garbage, but K. Rool only does well when he's the one in control of the match and it can often be hard for him to get control when getting hit by a good combo started such as up-tilt or down-throw means he's going to be taking a guaranteed 50-60% damage.

True but in a lot of tournaments ive been to ive been destroyed by him.

 

[Jotun873]

True but in a lot of tournaments ive been to ive been destroyed by him.

And i have been destroyed by little mac.

He is still bad though, I just made mistakes

 

[SwagGuy99]

One character I haven't heard heard being talked about much is . What are people's thoughts on him?

I think that he's probably high tier but I'd like to hear some other opinions on him.

 

[Sean²]

True but in a lot of tournaments ive been to ive been destroyed by him.

That doesn’t make him a good character, unfortunately. He’s only good against people who don’t understand the matchup. His armor is annoying and the crown is a decent projectile that has some frustrating hitstun, but he’s super combo food and his projectile game gets shut down by anyone with a reflector.

He’s a character you can’t just autopilot against or fundamental the hell out of to beat him. You’ll just get destroyed. You actually have to play the matchup (a la Little Mac, Bayonetta, other dumb characters that don’t follow a standard archetype). And once you do, it’s not nearly as hard.

 

[donnaddrake]

One character I haven't heard heard being talked about much is . What are people's thoughts on him?

I think that he's probably high tier but I'd like to hear some other opinions on him.

Meh he feels slower than Fox and Wolf in my oppinion and I dont think hes high tier but hes not bad.

Can I just say that 's practically infinite vertical recovery with the bomb dropping method makes him godly and his edge guarding is so easy and effective and his up special in some combos makes his attacks just hard to get away from and it deals alot of damage

 

[Diddy Kong]

What has really happened with ? I haven't seen him being played much like the early days, and Konga is also strangely absent for some reason?

 

[Rizen]

One character I haven't heard heard being talked about much is . What are people's thoughts on him?

I think that he's probably high tier but I'd like to hear some other opinions on him.

The only time I see him is as a counterpick from Fox players to mix it up. He's the worst of the space animals, kind of like a vertical Wolf without the kill power. Falco has some good things going for him like a fast to fire blaster, reflector that doubles as a zoning attack, f2 jab iirc, and good gimping game. The problem is his rewards are undertunned; he doesn't have Fox's vortex or Wolf's strong hits. Falco's mobility is also a big step down from Fox's. He feels like a mid tier.

 

[ARISTOS]

What has really happened with ? I haven't seen him being played much like the early days, and Konga is also strangely absent for some reason?

Absurdly strong in advantage and has good neutral pokes up close but likely has one of the worst disadvantage states in the game, if not bottom 5. Once you've popped DK in the air, outside of floating away and hitting you with an aerial/meme stuff with down-B I don't see what options this character has to land. This is also hurt by the amount of FD like stages we have

 

[Ziodyne 21]

The only time I see him is as a counterpick from Fox players to mix it up. He's the worst of the space animals, kind of like a vertical Wolf without the kill power. Falco has some good things going for him like a fast to fire blaster, reflector that doubles as a zoning attack, f2 jab iirc, and good gimping game. The problem is his rewards are undertunned; he doesn't have Fox's vortex or Wolf's strong hits. Falco's mobility is also a big step down from Fox's. He feels like a mid tier.

interestingly enough seen Larry use Falco and a counterpick vs who is actually a rough MU for him. As much as Fox wins offstage, R.O.B absolutley destroys Fox offstage. Mostly since Arm Rotor basically deletes Fox Illusion as a recovery option and R.O.B can easily edgeguard Fox besides that. Falco has an easier time recovering offstage , can better edgeguard R.O.B himself and and his combos are very effective vs the bots big body

 

[FLGibsonIII]

What do you guys thing about ? A lot of people say he is high tier apparently, but I just feet like he gets destroyed in too many MU's. He might be the best he has ever been, but it doesn't feel like it is enough.

 

[SSB_Chai]

Why hasn't seen the same level of tournament results as ? Their both high tier characters who have the definitive weakness of a poor recovery, but the advantages of a solid neutral game. There were two Chroms in the top 48 at Frostbite, but iirc no Clouds.

Sakurai stated that he's one of the games most commonly played characters online, so having a low amount of high level performances just seems off to me.

 

[Deleted member]

Can I just say that 's practically infinite vertical recovery with the bomb dropping method makes him godly and his edge guarding is so easy and effective and his up special in some combos makes his attacks just hard to get away from and it deals alot of damage

I don't see how it is broken because it is almost impossible to pull off in a competitive battle.

 

[Jotun873]

What do you guys thing about ? A lot of people say he is high tier apparently, but I just feet like he gets destroyed in too many MU's. He might be the best he has ever been, but it doesn't feel like it is enough.

Bowser has a solid oos with frame 6 fortress, his recovery at least covers a solid distance now even if it is easy to gimp, his Fair is a pretty safe zoning tool and his command grab itself is frsme 6.

Bowser is probably one of the top superheavies but he still suffers from typical weaknesses such as, vunerable to combos, easy to gimp, (mostly) bad frame data and large hurtbox.

Without a secondary though its doubtful bowser will see results.

I would probably say upper mid tier.

 

[Sean²]

What do you guys thing about ? A lot of people say he is high tier apparently, but I just feet like he gets destroyed in too many MU's. He might be the best he has ever been, but it doesn't feel like it is enough.

Great character, just gets ran over by zoners and fast characters who can outrun him. Also combo food. IMO tied for best heavy with DK. His big advantage over DK is a slightly less spikable recovery.

Why hasn't seen the same level of tournament results as ? Their both high tier characters who have the definitive weakness of a poor recovery, but the advantages of a solid neutral game. There were two Chroms in the top 48 at Frostbite, but iirc no Clouds.

Sakurai stated that he's one of the games most commonly played characters online, so having a low amount of high level performances just seems off to me.

Again, from a few pages ago - most of his Smash 4 fans only picked him up because he was an absurdly easy to play top tier. People joke about everyone having a pocket "whoever" in this game but nearly everyone actually had a pocket Cloud back then. Very few mained the character because they liked him, it was because he was good. His 'goodness' didn't quite transfer over to Ultimate, so a majority of his players - the ones who looking for an easy top tier to play - dropped him. Someone who actually cares about the development of the character hasn't emerged yet, so that's likely why he's not a threat right now.

I think the main reason you're seeing Chrom over Cloud though, is because Chrom can throw strong moves out with a fair bit of safety, Cloud really can't. His smashes are laggy, and the change in limit is a bit of a handicap in his ability to get safe kills. Half of Chrom's kit can be a kill move, or combos into one. Cloud doesn't quite have the same luxury.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Great character, just gets ran over by zoners and fast characters who can outrun him. Also combo food. IMO tied for best heavy with DK. His big advantage over DK is a slightly less spikable recovery.


Again, from a few pages ago - most of his Smash 4 fans only picked him up because he was an absurdly easy to play top tier. People joke about everyone having a pocket "whoever" in this game but nearly everyone actually had a pocket Cloud back then. Very few mained the character because they liked him, it was because he was good. His 'goodness' didn't quite transfer over to Ultimate, so a majority of his players - the ones who looking for an easy top tier to play - dropped him. Someone who actually cares about the development of the character hasn't emerged yet, so that's likely why he's not a threat right now.

I think the main reason you're seeing Chrom over Cloud though, is because Chrom can throw strong moves out with a fair bit of safety, Cloud really can't. His smashes are laggy, and the change in limit is a bit of a handicap in his ability to get safe kills. Half of Chrom's kit can be a kill move, or combos into one. Cloud doesn't quite have the same luxury.

Yea I have noticed that outside of his Limit moves, most of Cloud's kill options are now pretty committal or predictable. He cant fish for up-air kills quite as easily as he could in Smash 4, his fair and bair have a fair amout of start up. As as mentioned. All of his smash attacks have signifigantly more endlag now making them pretty risky to use.
Heh..playing Cloud takes a degree of planning and thought now if you want to succeed . So yeah its no surprise to see most of his former users dropping him in droves

 

[The_Bookworm]

Yea I have noticed that outside of his Limit moves, most of Cloud's kill options are now pretty committal or predictable. He cant fish for up-air kills quite as easily as he could in Smash 4, his fair and bair have a fair amout of start up. As as mentioned. All of his smash attacks have signifigantly more endlag now making them pretty risky to use.
Heh..playing Cloud takes a degree of planning and thought now if you want to succeed . So yeah its no surprise to see most of his former users dropping him in droves

You are actually incorrect on the smash attacks. Foward smash and up smash only got a few more frames of endlag added and down smash didn't get any lag changes (although it is weaker than in SSB4). Overall, his smash attacks got only very slightly nerfed from SSB4.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

You are actually incorrect on the smash attacks. Foward smash and up smash only got a few more frames of endlag added and down smash didn't get any lag changes (although it is weaker than in SSB4). Overall, his smash attacks got only very slightly nerfed from SSB4.

Oh really, lol maybe I thought is was more just because the added lag makes quite a bit of difference, you can now actually consistently go for a punish on his f-smash after shield now. Where in Smash 4 if you were at least a character length distance away from him when it ended Cloud could actually be safe, heh my bad

 

[Frihetsanka]

Why hasn't seen the same level of tournament results as ?

Based on OrionStats, Chrom is #17 with 89.5 points, Cloud #18 with 88.25 points.

Speaking of OrionStats, King Dedede is #25 with 58 points, is he actually a solid high-mid tier character in this game? See: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AJs-mj5TTdkmkl7nhj4twJymVPTLTUdT0MBToL1cxDs/edit#gid=0

 

[FLGibsonIII]

Bowser has a solid oos with frame 6 fortress, his recovery at least covers a solid distance now even if it is easy to gimp, his Fair is a pretty safe zoning tool and his command grab itself is frsme 6.

Bowser is probably one of the top superheavies but he still suffers from typical weaknesses such as, vunerable to combos, easy to gimp, (mostly) bad frame data and large hurtbox.

Without a secondary though its doubtful bowser will see results.

I would probably say upper mid tier.

Yeah, I would say upper mid tier as well. I think he has pretty good matchups against the mid tier and below, but I feel the top and even high tiers walk on him. He is still probably one of the best heavies though, and does well against everyone else. I am NOT basing my opinion on bowser on my own experience, but I honestly feel bowser is one of my easier matchups with roy. I feel like all I need to do is have solid spacing and I win because it is so easy to do my strings on him. He is prime time combo food.