Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[NINTENDO Galaxy]

Yeah, it's outdated.

 

[ZephyrZ]

eh cut the **** bro. Wario is a legit character and it's not just tweek there's also gluttony and zachray has started to pick him up too. He's a legit threat and a character that needs to be watched out for.

...He predicted Wario "upper high tier". That's still very high up in the roster, and almost as good as being an actual top tier.

No one here is saying Wario isn't a legitimate threat.

 

[N8than]

Is top tier or high tier, because I've seen some top players put him in top tier, but others put him in high tier.

 

[Idon]

Is top tier or high tier, because I've seen some top players put him in top tier, but others put him in high tier.

Well, depends on which top player you believe.
You're not going to get a more concrete opinion from us, that's for sure.
Only thing people can agree on is that this is the best normal Link we've had so far.

 

[Siledh]

Is top tier or high tier, because I've seen some top players put him in top tier, but others put him in high tier.

Swear I've played you online...

Personally I think he is definitely high, but his frama data and rather linear and gimpable recovery hold him back from top.

Would say this is probably the best Adult Link so far though.

 

[MG_3989]

A lot of people have been saying that Fox has the better recovery but I think that Falco's is just as good as Fox's as his side-b is faster and his jump height and fall speed are quite a bit lower than Fox which makes his vertical recovery better than it would be, if his attributes weren't the way they are.


I think that he'll play a similar role to Smash 4 where he serves as a good counterpick to a lot of the swordfighters (like ) and characters who can't contest his speed and range (like ). I also think that he does pretty well against as he kills pikmin on him with ease and can kill him at stupidly early percents. I think that if someone is able to play extremely successfully at tournaments, he could be on the high end of high tier. If not, then he's probably going to be low high tier/high mid tier.


I feel like Roy is one of the swordfighters does poorly against becasue excels at close range and is one of the few characters who is faster than himself. This combined with his early kill confirms/powerful attacks leads me to believe that (and by extention, ) have an edge in the matchup compared to the other swordfighters.

If you think Bowser beats Ness you’re vastly illinformed. Ness is a heavy a killer and Bowser isn’t an exception

Edit 1: Added the pictures of Lucas's combos since they would not load earlier and the image button did not work properly. I also removed the lone from the bottom of this post.

Edit 2: @The_Bookworm Please do not ask me where I rank Lucas on a tier list or what match-ups he wins or loses. I will politely decline like I did years ago. Also I enjoy that the quality of your posts have improved from when you joined, good job.





A: I work to get my opponents offstage since that is the goal of the game, I also value stage control. You don't "give in" to neutral, instead know the limits of your character and your opponent's options so you do not overextend and risk throwing your lead.





A: F-smash is Lucas's worst smash attack in my opinion. Down smash is better in more ways than one; not only does it deal more damage than F-smash, it launches at a lower angle that is great for horizontal kills, plus it has higher knockback growth than F-smash. F-Smash's only use to me is as reflector.

Spoiler: A lotta' Lucas info

A: I cannot speak for his grab since I have not done research on that but I can speak for his aerials (I did but the only thing I found changed from S4 was that his Dash Grab gained 5 First Active Frames bringing it up to 45 from 40). His F-air is stronger which allows it take stocks earlier than we could in S4; Lucas Discord also says that it barely outranges Lucina's F-air using Wii Fit Trainer as the dummy. F-air is also safe on shield when landing. His Up-air got a range buff (ness's S4 Up-air); it can also combo into itself 4 times from 30% (if done from a falling up air near the ground) which deals 44.8% and takes the opponent to 74.8%. If not done from a falling Up-air, you can get 3 reps of the move. I can't comment on B-air since Lucas Discord does not currently have the Base Knockback and Knockback Growth for the move yet in the resource channel.

His D-air however, is my favorite out of the buffed aerials. The move now properly connects into the following hits and Lucas is able to drag opponents offstage, no matter the percent. It's VERY easy to take stocks with this move, even as low as 15% or less as long as Lucas keeps using D-air and follows his opponent to the blastzone (he is Lucas he can recover from there).

We've also gained the ability to perform D-air loops starting from 60% into a Down Smash or F-smash of choice (F-smash is easier to connect with as Down Smash has a 2 frame buffer window) that kills. This works on 66 characters from the current roster.

As for Z-air, it got a range nerf, but we gained the ability to perform double jump-cancel Z-air (DJC Z-air) loops that combos into the rest of our kit minus Up Smash. It can even carry opponents from one end of the stage to the other and confirm into a F-air for the kill.

Below is a video example of DJC Z-air and screenshots of Lucas's combos from the Lucas Discord are in the spoiler tab. Actually no, all of this is going in a spoiler tab.

Link: https://twitter.com/trickRickricky_...6064?s=19195626195626195627195628195629195630

View attachment 195659View attachment 195660View attachment 195661View attachment 195662View attachment 195663

There's not much to cover on PK Freeze, since you guys talked about it long ago. The move can force approaches, bait and catch airdodges (including DAD), and punish multiple ledge options since the move no longer stops charging when it comes into contact with the ground and as of Ultimate, it can travel through platforms. Did I mention that it lasts for 4 frames? Knowing this, it can cover all ledge options, including 2 frames (unless Lucas gets countered while standing right next to the enemy then that is a dead Lucas main).

Lucas's F-tilt is now a kill move similar to Pichu's F-tilt, both kill around 120% according to the answers I got in both servers. PK Thunder now has considerably less endlag from S4 but it's still punishable and lasts longer than Ness's PKT. Magnet on the other hand, now has a windbox near it to suck opponents into Magnet's hitbox on release. The windbox can be used to gimp opponents or to miss a heal vs stationary grenades and Toon/Young Link's Bombs. Magnet is also +12 on shield; Lucas can even interrupt Magnet's endlag earlier than the animation implies to setup blockstrings that we have not fully explored yet.

PK Fire has more damage and knockback compared to S4 which allows it to kill earlier too.

A: Lucas's Up Smash can beat's Ivysaur's D-air due to it's frame 1-4 invincibility. Speaking of Up Smash, due to Attack Cancel, Lucas can now abuse his Up Smash's invincibility to use an aerial of his choice (1 frame input).

None of this info is relevant because as you guys have said in the S4 CCI threads and in this thread, results matter. For those that needed a top player to touch Lucas to get interested, Dabuz has been in Lucascord. He came there about a month ago and chatted it up with us. He then proceeded to play Lucas on stream for a few days in online matches. At one point I assumed Dabuz struggled with Fox because he came back to the server complaining about that match-up which is understandable because Fox is fast and Lucas has a bad disadvantage when it comes to landing. I thought he dipped after that but a few weeks later, he showed back up. That's all I got for that.


- BREAK TIME Pt. 1

Spoiler: Second half of my quote responses

A: 300+ Lucas matches that I update weekly. Go wild.

Link: https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLRPCYScMMtEXx5T9ZRl6xcKsAoUqtL_9-




A: I recall seeing an option to swap characters in one of the controls menu, but I have yet to find it again since release, maybe it was removed.



A: Have you tried visiting the Young Link Discord? They are very active.



A: Yep, it's really sad, but that is how people want to play. They no longer care for the deep mind games that occurs between players as they improve. Well, that's not entirely true, I get to read about that from time to time in this thread whenever a tourney rolls around.

The best thing I've figured out I can do is to try and share information to those who are willing to listen. I made an FGC doc some years ago during S4 and I've been DM'ing players who I stumble across that I assume are new or
lost after I ask them would they like help. So far, they have all enjoyed the notes and one Lucas main managed to become the top player in his region, another is currently on their way there, and they are improving fast. Meh, I don't know what else to add to this part. Sorry Shaya.




A: Smash players will find a way to make sure that the good buttons always do the "smart play" for them and focus their mind elsewhere. Which is smart on their part.



A: You don't know the half of it. Back in the S4 days, so many players claimed Ryu was technical and threw fits over input commands. It's ludricous. Even players on Smashboards shared the same view and I tried to explain it to them but got brushed off and they went back to calling Ryu technical. You can probably find old S4 forums in the Ryu thread about it. I know Scrubquotes is full of them.



A: I was going to @ the user "Family Matters", but it seems like they deleted their account or changed their name. Rip. I remember they were so passionate in the Marthcina wars of S4.



A: They are not hard to pull off. It just takes a few hours, more or less depending on the player and you'll get them down in no time. Knowing Smash players, that is asking too much of them.



A: That's because Shaya isn't a pro smasher nor a personality on Youtube or Twitter as far as I'm aware of. Many smashers are probably unaware of this very thread unless a tier list is released sometime in the future; even they won't bother to check this out since it looks intimidating from the outside. Seeing 20 to 100+ pages of text. I would walk out too if this was my first time seeing a forum.



A: You and I both should know that Smash players and anyone in competitive games love the strong and easy stuff when it comes to winning. Don't fool yourself. FGC veterans that have played BBTAG know what Team Gorby (Gordeau and Ruby Rose) is capable of. Full screen, fast, and high priority hitboxes? Sign me up.

- BREAK TIME Pt. 2

Spoiler: Part 3 of my quotes responses

A: No, YOU need to go to Rosalina Discord and check out the information for yourself. There is no need why a public Discord server for a videogame that gets referenced multiple times in a discussion need to go out of their way and share information here. By staying only in this forum you are limiting yourself to information around the web. It's out there, go get it, no need to stay in the dark.

I know this sounds rude and like I'm attacking you but I'm trying to be helpful. You can't just sit here and wait for all the Discord servers for different characters to drop important information for the match-up on your lap (be grateful that some even bothered to come here). If you were not aware of the Discord servers prior to this then I understand. For some players, it takes losing a match-up to convince them to join X character server.

The day after I typed this post and was trying to figure out a spoiler tab issue, I remembered that people have lives so I can't expect everyone to check character discord servers. Welp, I've backed myself into a corner there.



A: He shielded at 4:20. 4:22, 4:36, spot-dodged at 4:42, 4:44, rolled at 4:54, 5:07, rolls at 5:14, rolls at 5:54, spotdodges at 6:52, and rolls at 7:03.

Your point still stands though. Venia likes to keep his options open rather than auto-piloting to shield or a roll when he is scared or unsure of what to do. The only time he does use these options is when there is no better choice but to shield, roll, or spotdodge. His rolls were to cross up the Bowser, since all Bowser did was approach and to dodge a dash grab, dash attack, or a down/forward tilt that the Bowser may have thrown out since Venia acknowledged that he was in range of them. This Bowser player was also very predictable in his approaches. He barely mixed them up. His spot-dodges were to punish grabs or jabs when Venia found himself at point blank range next to Bowser; Venia had the knowledge and used it (spot-dodges can be canceled early with attacks) as an attempt to punish whatever the Bowser chose.into attacks.

Venia played optimally. It's the same way I play Lucas. I would hope more (read: all) players learn to pick this up, but I'd be lying to myself. Oh, another thing Venia's playstyle allowed him to get that others would miss due to shielding every time they get scared (probably a bad habit from online battles, I know I picked it up before), were shield grabs on this Bowser player.



A: I believe it's a player thing so it would fall under playstyle for you. Every player can do this with every character to a different extent. Being patient instead of button-mashing your way to victory like S4 taught a majority of the fanbase, is a valid strategy. But why do that when the easier option is to listen to the top players and pick the characters that allow you to button-mash to victory and have fun until you hit a roadblock and start complaining. Say hello, to Ness, Lucas, and other projectile users that get stereotyped as spamming and not playing the same game as everyone else. As Justin Wong would say: "You gonna' learn today!" Speaking of JWong, he recently uploaded a guide called the "Art of Playing Lame". A lot of what he talks about can be applied to Smash. If you are interested, give it an extra view.

Spoiler: Art of Playing Lame

Once again, why do this instead of playing a top tier with good buttons? Because you can. Just don't get salty or easily frustrated if you run into a "JWong" in bracket.

- BREAK TIME Pt. 3 (Part 4 is below)



A: Not true, Ken and Shulk are getting a ton of metagame development, it's just not being shared here and is kept on their Discord servers. You are free to check them out though. Here is a video of a recent Shulk Combo and here is one for Ken.

Spoiler: Shulk

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Shulk Discord calls this the Monado Cyclone.

Since this killed Pichu, it's probably going to get you guys talking. At max rage this kills Pichu at 30%. Shulk Discord also has a doc that details kill %'s for the cast and two more videos in their resource channel covering this combo.

Spoiler: Ken

Link:

Ryu/Ken Discord has a ton of other fun stuff that Ken is able to pull off (I'm watching the videos as I type this). He even has a true shield break combo that players will never see coming unless it is done to them alot, or they visit this Discord before a match. Ken also has true combos into his F-smash that kill. Ken is very fun.

Here are three for Ice Climbers since I have been putting a lot of time into them. I'm a sucker for any combos that remind me of fighting games. Do Ice Climber combos remind anyone of Carl Clover from the Blazblu series? I loved the previous FGC talk I have read up on in this thread; so glad to see: UNIEL, DBFZ, MVC2, UMVC3, MVCI, TEKKEN 7, AND SFV.

Spoiler: Ice Climbers

何だこのキャラ。
自身のジャンプ残ってるから復帰できるのも面白い。 pic.twitter.com/7VliT8yJ0E

— むらさと/murasat (@spnaclimber) January 14, 2019

Follow up to the trump fsmash vid I posted a while back.

I actually hit it a few times in the local yesterday pic.twitter.com/ovmxZZKKHc

— Big D 🇨🇦 (@BigD_SSB) February 23, 2019

I hope some of this information lit a fire so you guys can explore characters that are not the least path to resistance.

Glad to know more about Luca’s aerials. I didn’t know they had that much utility. I don’t know if they’re better than Ness’s and it doesn’t matter because they’re different characters but Lucas’s aerials certainly have sown utility and combo potential. We all know what Ness’s aerials are so no reason to bring them up here but glad for the info on Lucas

Raw data from Orion Stats is all well and good but it isn’t contextualised and doesn't account for popularity and trends. I'm not talking about "potential" here; popularity is a very real thing which prevents clearly amazing characters from dominating results in raw numbers whilst simultaneously inflating the results of characters who dominate lower levels. Any tier list which doesn't put Olimar and Inkling in the highest echelon of characters is flawed in my book, their solo success at major and supermajor level is too good to ignore even if they're used by few players.

Plus, let's be real, look at the tools. These characters are top tier.

"But popularity is correlated with how good a character is!" and would like a word with you. There are characters and playstyles that people gravitate away from despite being top tier. Olimar is really campy and pretty technical, Inkling has a unique mechanic and requires creativity to get kills (and is probably held back by the "Inkling is overrated" meme). Popularity is correlated with strength but it’s not definitive.

On the flipside Palutena's results are beefed up by her sheer popularity putting her in top 5 territory, yet she’s trending down as her best players are moving away from her and she’s constantly propped up by secondaries at top level. She strikes me as a top of high tier character, maybe bottom of top tier but there are more deserving characters of that top tier classification despite her raw stats being better.

Considering these factors I'd suggest we’re looking at an (unordered) top tier of and probably . may belong in that group as well but considering his very lacking results even with popularity considered it’s not right to put him there at this stage.

You then have the crew in high tier (there are others I’m forgetting including Palutena, don’t get mad if I haven’t listed your main Ness players) who have all shown strong solo performances or, in Wario’s case, success at the absolute top level vs the best characters.

I expect and maybe to join the highest echelon of characters in due course.

Not gonna say anything but you’re sleeping. PT over Ness? Ok

 

[chipndip]

Is top tier or high tier, because I've seen some top players put him in top tier, but others put him in high tier.

I think we've reached a point in game balance where damn near anyone can look top tier, but most top tier hopefuls are just really good high tier picks. It's really hard to put a finger on a top tier candidate save for a very select few characters.

So, in Link's case, I wouldn't say he's top tier. He's got room to show out, but I don't see what'd make him top tier.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

...He predicted Wario "upper high tier". That's still very high up in the roster, and almost as good as being an actual top tier.

No one here is saying Wario isn't a legitimate threat.

He's making it seem as though Tweek is the reason for Wario's success and writing off the character tools. It's kinda like a back handed compliment.

Anyways instead of nitpicking about semantics like me ask this. What's stopping Wario from being considered a top tier? What's holding the character back? Who are we considering better than him? What are we basing this off of?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Who are we considering better than him?

Peach/Daisy, Wolf, Fox, Olimar, Inkling, Greninja, Lucina, Pikachu, Pichu, Snake, Palutena, Ike. All of these characters have better results than Wario on OrionStats too (aside from Pikachu, but Pikachu is clearly top 12, right?).

 

[AndrewtheAmericanDude]

Peach/Daisy, Wolf, Fox, Olimar, Inkling, Greninja, Lucina, Pikachu, Pichu, Snake, Palutena, Ike. All of these characters have better results than Wario on OrionStats too (aside from Pikachu, but Pikachu is clearly top 12, right?).

Does that really matter when Tweek's Wario seems a cut above everyone? I know MKLeo seemed a little blindsided but it was still one sided and unlike MKLeo, Tweek didnt seem to need to switch off Wario-though he did try to use DK but I dont think that affects the end result. Not judging MKLeo just saying Tweek seems dominant.

Honestly this reminds me of Diddy through most of Sm4sh, where ZeRo destroyed people with him yet the next best Diddy was what, Angel, Nietono? They were pretty good but there was a visible gap. So I dont think 1 player leading the pack diminishes it.

Are Wario's kill setups really hard or something and I just dont know? It probably is too early to make a tier list but I dont think Wario can be definitively crossed out of the top yet.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Ok I seriously ow many people seem to be downplaying Wario's overall tourament success' still saying he is not as good or lacking the results many Top or High tiers now.
Zackray started winning in Japan with Wolf, other pro players started picking him up and do well with him..and now he is Top tier in most peoples eyes. Heck MKLeo uses Lucina as a secondary, wins GF at Genesis6 with her, Nairo also uses her as as secondary... Also top-tier

But Wario is winning big. Tweek convingly beat MKLeo who uses characters Wario is supposed to lose against...and...nothing for him?

People are fawning all over Greninja now as some secret top-tier? Well Wario is actullay getting top-tier results, where is his hype..is it becuase he is gross and ugly..lol I mean what?


(P.S I am saying Greninja is good, he is proving to be very strong. But my point stands)

 

[meleebrawler]

I am finding it pretty strange how many people seem to be downplaying Wario's overall tourament success' still saying he is not as good as many other successful high tiers.
Zackray started winning in Japan with Wolf, other pro players started picking him up. Bam he is Top tier in most peoples eyes.

But Wario? What is the difference, is it becuase he is ugly, lol

He was meh in his last game, and unlike Wolf doesn't have many drastic differences/improvements that are immediately noticeable to those who don't seriously play him. So it's a little harder for most to swallow him being way better than in 4, even though he has been top tier before in Brawl.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Does that really matter when Tweek's Wario seems a cut above everyone?

Right now, MkLeo is #1, results wise (he won Genesis 6 and got 2nd at Frostbite, after all, which is better than what Tweek has). Who's more skilled can certainly be argued.

 

[NotLiquid]

I am finding it pretty strange how many people seem to be downplaying Wario's overall tourament success' still saying he is not as good as many other successful high tiers.
Zackray started winning in Japan with Wolf, other pro players started picking him up. Bam he is Top tier in most peoples eyes.

But Wario? What is the difference, is it becuase he is ugly, lol

Wolf saw pretty immediate results when Zackray began his tear, and multiple people benefited pretty hard from maining him. Wario hasn't really had that yet, despite players like Glutonny and Tweek already doing work with him for months. Given that multiple of Wario's flaws have transitioned pretty seamlessly between the games I don't expect the ripple effect to be as pronounced with him, some skepticism is justified given how he's a deceptively technical character to pick up.

I don't think a player "carrying" a character is some unique phenomenon, it's pretty obvious that some players are just on another level. In Smash 4, post-patch Diddy was pretty emblematic of that - ZeRo was just about the only player who was consistently pushing that character's best results (even if Zinoto and MVD made up a lot of slack after his retirement). Obviously there's something that can be said about a character that has the gas in the tank to push the best of players - hell I can't possibly claim otherwise as I'm still bullish on Inkling - but I think most people would agree right now that even a character that could claim to be the "fifteenth best" or whatever is perfectly capable of winning tournaments with how Ultimate is balanced, and there is a sense that Wario is neither in a better or worse place than he was before. Bear in mind that Tweek also used Wolf multiple times during Frostbite, though whether or not he could've done solo Wario all the way through is debatable.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

Ok I seriously ow many people seem to be downplaying Wario's overall tourament success' still saying he is not as good as many Top or High tiers now.
Zackray started winning in Japan with Wolf, other pro players started picking him up and do well with him..and now he is Top tier in most peoples eyes. Heck MKLeo uses Lucina as a secondary, wins GF at Genesis6 with her, Nairo also uses her as as secondary... Also top-tier

But Wario is winning big. Tweek convingly beat MKLeo who uses characters Wario is supposed to lose against...and...nothing for him?

People are fawning all over Greninja now as some secret top-tier? Well Wario is actullay getting top-tier results, where is his hype..is it becuase he is gross and ugly..lol I mean what?


(P.S I am saying Greninja is good, he is proving to be very strong. But my point stands)

That could be part of it sometimes people care more about a characters design moreso than game play. I do believe that greninja has always been considered good but per usual around these parts people cry for results. Now that the top greninja finally went to a major people are starting to see what was evident before. It'd be nice if people weren't so results obsessed when talking about characters. A lot of times it's simply a matter of the character not have any representation.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I do believe that greninja has always been considered good but per usual around these parts people cry for results. Now that the top greninja finally went to a major people are starting to see what was evident before. It'd be nice if people weren't so results obsessed when talking about characters. A lot of times it's simply a matter of the character not have any representation.

I get the impression that some people in this thread don't really watch any tournaments aside from majors, giving them a somewhat skewed views on which characters get results and which don't.

 

[Corra]

There simply isn't enough time to watch everything, or even close to it. Aggregate data posts are excellent and much appreciated, but they also don't tell the whole story. Smaller region-based metas and who shows up to what majors are some of many factors that skew raw results. I also think it's too early in the game's lifespan to be making much more than what the thread name implies... Impressions. It's weird to see people talking with much authority, honestly.

That said... Pokemon Trainer is clearly better than Ness. Like, what? The character has been taking names thanks to Wish7s and others. They have a pretty high ceiling thanks to being a stance character with 3 movesets. Not knocking on Ness but PT is a clear threat rn.

 

[AlMoStLeGeNdArY]

I get the impression that some people in this thread don't really watch any tournaments aside from majors, giving them a somewhat skewed views on which characters get results and which don't.

You could be right about that or they only accept results of majors.

There simply isn't enough time to watch everything, or even close to it. Aggregate data posts are excellent and much appreciated, but they also don't tell the whole story. Smaller region-based metas and who shows up to what majors are some of many factors that skew raw results. I also think it's too early in the game's lifespan to be making much more than what the thread name implies... Impressions. It's weird to see people talking with much authority, honestly.

That said... Pokemon Trainer is clearly better than Ness. Like, what? The character has been taking names thanks to Wish7s and others. They have a pretty high ceiling thanks to being a stance character with 3 movesets. Not knocking on Ness but PT is a clear threat rn.

There's no bias for you is there ?

 

[Sean²]

There simply isn't enough time to watch everything, or even close to it. Aggregate data posts are excellent and much appreciated, but they also don't tell the whole story. Smaller region-based metas and who shows up to what majors are some of many factors that skew raw results. I also think it's too early in the game's lifespan to be making much more than what the thread name implies... Impressions. It's weird to see people talking with much authority, honestly.

That said... Pokemon Trainer is clearly better than Ness. Like, what? The character has been taking names thanks to Wish7s and others. They have a pretty high ceiling thanks to being a stance character with 3 movesets. Not knocking on Ness but PT is a clear threat rn.

When did we start talking about Ness again? Please no more Ness. This is a bit of a random and weird comparison, maybe I'm missing the context

PT is good but hard carried by Ivysaur. To the point where some players switch to Charizard at high percent just to get death over with so they don't have to waste their invincibility switching Pokemon. PT is hurt due Charizard's mere existence.

 

[MG_3989]

There simply isn't enough time to watch everything, or even close to it. Aggregate data posts are excellent and much appreciated, but they also don't tell the whole story. Smaller region-based metas and who shows up to what majors are some of many factors that skew raw results. I also think it's too early in the game's lifespan to be making much more than what the thread name implies... Impressions. It's weird to see people talking with much authority, honestly.

That said... Pokemon Trainer is clearly better than Ness. Like, what? The character has been taking names thanks to Wish7s and others. They have a pretty high ceiling thanks to being a stance character with 3 movesets. Not knocking on Ness but PT is a clear threat rn.

And Ness isn’t doing that with countless mains? Have you seen Ness’s results, not to mention in majors? How about you research Ness’s kit, combos, confirms, movement options, and advanced tech and tell me he’s not a threat. I’m sorry and I think PT is a good character who’s carried by Ivysaur, has some utility in Squirtle, and has dead weight in Charizard who actually hurts the character. I don’t know who’s better but it’s not clear right now and if we’re looking at results it’s obvious which way it’s leaning

 

[ZephyrZ]

Every instinct in my body right now wants to go on a rant defending Charizard as having a niche in the team but I'd just be repeating myself at this point.

Maybe I am just a crazy loyalist but I still firmly believe Charizard has a niche in the team. He's got incredible ground speed and a Ridley-tier advantage state as well as the best recovery and rage abuse of the trio. That's gotta be worth at least something.

 

[Idon]

Every instinct in my body right now wants to go on a rant defending Charizard as having a niche in the team but I'd just be repeating myself at this point.

Maybe I am just a crazy loyalist but I still firmly believe Charizard has a niche in the team. He's got incredible ground speed and a Ridley-tier advantage state as well as the best recovery and rage abuse of the trio. That's gotta be worth at least something.

He's got backair and YOLO Flare Blitz.

That's all he needs.

 

[PsySmasher]

Every instinct in my body right now wants to go on a rant defending Charizard as having a niche in the team but I'd just be repeating myself at this point.

Maybe I am just a crazy loyalist but I still firmly believe Charizard has a niche in the team. He's got incredible ground speed and a Ridley-tier advantage state as well as the best recovery and rage abuse of the trio. That's gotta be worth at least something.

Yeah. I do think does have some merit/niche to be filled on 's team. Especially w/ him being the fastest on the ground, heaviest, and having the best recovery of the 3.

But beyond those 3 things, I don't really see a reason to use over . He's somewhat viable when going for a kill or surviving longer, but have way more going for them.

And it pains me to say that since was a secondary for me in Smash 4, but are significantly more useful.

 

[bc1910]

People are fawning all over Greninja now as some secret top-tier? Well Wario is actullay getting top-tier results, where is his hype..is it becuase he is gross and ugly..lol I mean what?


(P.S I am saying Greninja is good, he is proving to be very strong. But my point stands)

Not disagreeing, I think a Wario is top tier as well, it’s just that his success at top level is almost completely as a secondary/co-main. Greninja has shown more measured success st top level but almost completely as a solo main which can be weighted as having more merit. Thus their results even out overall; I’m too lazy to check but I think they are 12 and 13 on Orion.

Both are top tier or a hair below it IMO, regardless of “hype” factor they’re both clearly very strong.

 

[Shyy_Guy595]

Just happy my girl Peach and my guy Wolf are doing great rn and considered top tier. Warms the heart.

Pichu as well; what a dang comeback from Melee.

Oh! And Olimar/Alph! That's amazing to see my short little dude pack a punch like he did in Brawl! I knew somehow those results in World of Light would end up making him perform well online. It's actually an easy correlation to make, and once people picked up on his power whilst trudging along the story, they probably thought: "Wow! I should think about using this guy in actual fights!"

That being said, what exactly caused Olimar/Alph to have such a crazy juxtaposition with the rest of the cast in terms of their Smash attacks in the story? Cause like, I was using other characters and comparing the damage and it's actually insane how much more he hurts and how easy it is to pull off. Is that just an oversight or...?

 

[meleebrawler]

Yeah. I do think does have some merit/niche to be filled on 's team. Especially w/ him being the fastest on the ground, heaviest, and having the best recovery of the 3.

But beyond those 3 things, I don't really see a reason to use over . He's somewhat viable when going for a kill or surviving longer, but have way more going for them.

And it pains me to say that since was a secondary for me in Smash 4, but are significantly more useful.

There are some characters that are too heavy for Squirtle to reliably start combos on at very low percents; a little sizzling from Charizard's Flamethrower fixes that nicely (and if they happen to leave themselves open to juggling, even better). Otherwise you'd have to try and land a grab or a few Withdraws, or rely mainly on Ivysaur for the damage-racking. But if they have any answer at all to it's rudimentary zoning that could be a struggle. Even someone like K. Rool can deal with it.

Conversely if the opponent is very light and not easily comboed outside of those low percents, it's Squirtle that's probably going to spend the most time on the bench, only getting in a quick combo at the start of the opponent's stocks before letting Ivy take over and focus on winning neutral for Charizard to be able to chase down the no doubt more agile opponent in disadvantage, scoring more damage with single hits than Squirtle likely would with it's attempted strings.

 

[Planty]

Just happy my girl Peach and my guy Wolf are doing great rn and considered top tier. Warms the heart.

Pichu as well; what a dang comeback from Melee.

Oh! And Olimar/Alph! That's amazing to see my short little dude pack a punch like he did in Brawl! I knew somehow those results in World of Light would end up making him perform well online. It's actually an easy correlation to make, and once people picked up on his power whilst trudging along the story, they probably thought: "Wow! I should think about using this guy in actual fights!"

That being said, what exactly caused Olimar/Alph to have such a crazy juxtaposition with the rest of the cast in terms of their Smash attacks in the story? Cause like, I was using other characters and comparing the damage and it's actually insane how much more he hurts and how easy it is to pull off. Is that just an oversight or...?

There was some sort of glitch where Olimar's Pikmin damage values wouldn't interact properly with spirit multipliers, so it resulted in crazy damage, but that got patched out.

However, people in this thread are basing their opinions more on tournament results and character matchups spreads (assuming a 1v1 no items environment on tournament stages), and less so on how the character felt to play during World of Light. In fact, I think most people in this thread have literally never touched World of Light.

 

[Emblem Lord]

There was some sort of glitch where Olimar's Pikmin damage values wouldn't interact properly with spirit multipliers, so it resulted in crazy damage, but that got patched out.

However, people in this thread are basing their opinions more on tournament results and character matchups spreads (assuming a 1v1 no items environment on tournament stages), and less so on how the character felt to play during World of Light. In fact, I think most people in this thread have literally never touched World of Light.

World a what now?????

 

[Rizen]

I watched the Frostbite doubles GFs and Tweek's is looking much better. He's executing 3 hit air to ground to air combos and killing with better setups than high % Nair like Dtilt>Fair and Fair1>land Usmash. It's a shame we didn't see him in singles.

Someone asked about : like I said before, he's SSB4 . A good secondary who hits hard but is held back by poor frame data. Link's results are strong in locals but have been going downhill in majors since people are figuring him out and Salem went from maining him, to seconding him with Lucina to dropping him for Snake. The honeymoon phase of "Link is a top 5" is over. Link is still pretty good and I predict he'll find his place as a secondary character with someone who can cover his bad MUs like Fox.

 

[ZephyrZ]

There are some characters that are too heavy for Squirtle to reliably start combos on at very low percents; a little sizzling from Charizard's Flamethrower fixes that nicely (and if they happen to leave themselves open to juggling, even better). Otherwise you'd have to try and land a grab or a few Withdraws, or rely mainly on Ivysaur for the damage-racking. But if they have any answer at all to it's rudimentary zoning that could be a struggle. Even someone like K. Rool can deal with it.

Conversely if the opponent is very light and not easily comboed outside of those low percents, it's Squirtle that's probably going to spend the most time on the bench, only getting in a quick combo at the start of the opponent's stocks before letting Ivy take over and focus on winning neutral for Charizard to be able to chase down the no doubt more agile opponent in disadvantage, scoring more damage with single hits than Squirtle likely would with it's attempted strings.

Too heavy? Squirtle loves picking on heavyweights, especially at low percents. Some might fall out of D-throw -> Up Air at zero but he has other combos. I've seen Leffen D-throw -> Dair -> Regrab before, which is a big-body heavy exclusive combo. Even if you're like me and can't pull that off consistently (yet) he's still got a lot of possible strings, like landing pivot boosted F-tilt -> F-tilt -> Dash Attack -> U-tilt -> Follow Opponent.

I do still like to stay as Squirtle against Pichu at really low percents since he escapes from combos easier then Ivy/Zard, but yeah, aside from that he really struggles against the Thunder Rats. I barely pull him out against Jigglypuffs as well, although Jiggles isn't exactly what I'd call the most relevant of threats.

 

[Jgod]

Yeah. I do think does have some merit/niche to be filled on 's team. Especially w/ him being the fastest on the ground, heaviest, and having the best recovery of the 3.

But beyond those 3 things, I don't really see a reason to use over . He's somewhat viable when going for a kill or surviving longer, but have way more going for them.

And it pains me to say that since was a secondary for me in Smash 4, but are significantly more useful.

Zard has Usmash and fly OoS.

Fastest on ground. Better recovery, heavyweight, strongest horizontal KO power. Strong OOS options. Better range than squirtle. Heavy Punish in flare blitz. He can also kill with F, B and Uthrow, Uthrow being more about platform stages.

Ivy uair has a large hitbox but zard is literally among the fastest (movement) in the game on the ground and can contest with disjoints, flamethrower or even fly due to SA to catch landings if he doesnt uair after em. Zard could use a touch up but he has a handful of benefits.


Squirtles movement advantage is air accel and withdraw. Zard does have 2 jumps. As far as getting in, outside of his size, Zard isnt some ez to spam out heavy.

Its funny because squirtle is barely faster than kirby on the ground but is presumed great because of his air accel. Im not a squirtle lover so note I am biased.

 

[meleebrawler]

Too heavy? Squirtle loves picking on heavyweights, especially at low percents. Some might fall out of D-throw -> Up Air at zero but he has other combos. I've seen Leffen D-throw -> Dair -> Regrab before, which is a big-body heavy exclusive combo. Even if you're like me and can't pull that off consistently (yet) he's still got a lot of possible strings, like landing pivot boosted F-tilt -> F-tilt -> Dash Attack -> U-tilt -> Follow Opponent.

I do still like to stay as Squirtle against Pichu at really low percents since he escapes from combos easier then Ivy/Zard, but yeah, aside from that he really struggles against the Thunder Rats. I barely pull him out against Jigglypuffs as well, although Jiggles isn't exactly what I'd call the most relevant of threats.

Very low in this case means 0%. Yeah Squirtle can get things going on heavies from there... but only reliably from a grab. Trying to start with aerials at this point is risky, because they might not get enough hitstun for a real followup, especially if they're on the ground.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

Very low in this case means 0%. Yeah Squirtle can get things going on heavies from there... but only reliably from a grab. Trying to start with aerials at this point is risky, because they might not get enough hitstun for a real followup, especially if they're on the ground.

Well I think that would be an issue only for Bowser due to his "Tough Guy" mechanic" meaning he can power though many of Squritles buttons at lower percents.

 

[Rizen]

Well I think that would be an issue only for Bowser due to his "Tough Guy" mechanic" meaning he can power though many of Squritles buttons at lower percents.

How specifically does that work?

 

[NotLiquid]

Ultimate Nimbus is going down right now, which features players such as Tweek, Leffen, Salem, Mang0, Light, Larry Lurr, Esam, Prodigy, ZD, Pandarian, and Mr. R. Notably Tweek is still rocking Wolf right now in bracket, and bear in mind that this is the final Smash Summit qualifier (which he never ended up qualifying for). At the time being at least, despite Wario doing well for him at Frostbite, Wolf seems to be his go-to character to win at the moment.

 

[Ziodyne 21]

How specifically does that work?

Essentially weaker attacks ( ones that do not do up to a defined amount of precent) will not make Bowser flinch until he reaches a certian percent threshold. I do not know the exact numbers offhand though

 

[Locke 06]

Very low in this case means 0%. Yeah Squirtle can get things going on heavies from there... but only reliably from a grab. Trying to start with aerials at this point is risky, because they might not get enough hitstun for a real followup, especially if they're on the ground.

This is false.

Dash attack is a combo starter, landing FAir leads to things, rising down air, falling up air, ftilt>grab, and uptilt is a combo starter.

Squirtle has trouble doing meaningful damage in air>air situations outside of hitting up air>combo due to his low damage/hit, but his air>ground reward is good.

 

[Y2Kay]

Stroder defeated Leffen and Tweek.

Are we still in denial about this character being top tier? Just curious.

 

[Sean²]

Every instinct in my body right now wants to go on a rant defending Charizard as having a niche in the team but I'd just be repeating myself at this point.

Maybe I am just a crazy loyalist but I still firmly believe Charizard has a niche in the team. He's got incredible ground speed and a Ridley-tier advantage state as well as the best recovery and rage abuse of the trio. That's gotta be worth at least something.

It just seems like his place on the team is a recovery bot or hard-read-at-high-percent bot. Otherwise it feels like you're better off switching off him ASAP so you're at less risk of being comboed to death.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

Stroder defeated Leffen and Tweek.

Are we still in denial about this character being top tier? Just curious.

If stroder gets to top 8 you will see top players saying they knew he was top tier and start hyping him up as their new main and then dropping him because X reason.