Official Competitive Character Impressions 2.0

[Rizen]

I have in lower high tier. He's better than mid tiers but falls short of top tiers.

Anyone know what Belmont's MU spread is like? I've see Richter used to CP Olimar so that's something. IMO YL beats them but I've only played vs 1 so that's not a lot of experience.

 

[The_Bookworm]

So something funny occurred the past few weeks. Shortly after Frostbite 2019, MkLeo posted this tweet:

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Recently everyone got the answer to Leo's "new main":

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He does play Isabelle on his streams, but this is still pretty funny. lol

 

[Planty]

I have in lower high tier. He's better than mid tiers but falls short of top tiers.

Anyone know what Belmont's MU spread is like? I've see Richter used to CP Olimar so that's something. IMO YL beats them but I've only played vs 1 so that's not a lot of experience.

It's not a very relevant matchup, but they beat Rosalina quite comfortably. Between their aerials, ftilt, and projectiles, Luma is basically permadead. Beyond that, Rosa is a huge floaty body so it makes approaching very difficult.
Rosa's reward for a neutral win is still pretty good though between juggling and edgeguarding (though both those things are much harder to do with a dead Luma). It's not an unwinnable matchup or anything, but it's definitely in Belmont's favor just because they're probably the best Luma killers in the game.

 

[Repli.Cant]

Recently everyone got the answer to Leo's "new main":

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He does play Isabelle on his streams, but this is still pretty funny. lol

I am... cautiously optimistic. After Ultimate dropped, all talk of seemed to vanish. Barely anyone plays her, and whenever she is brought up, the conversation usually boils down to "why use her when is just better?" But Leo is just a fantastic player, and I feel like he'll be able to put in some work with someone he actually really likes. Let's see where this road takes us.

 

[Frihetsanka]

I am... cautiously optimistic.

I think he's joking, Isabelle doesn't really seem like an MkLeo character, and even if she might be better than people think, I'm highly skeptical of her being top 15. MkLeo is a contender for best in the world, it seems unlikely he'd main a character who isn't even top 15.

Him using her as a rare secondary/pocket is more plausible though, but as a main? I highly doubt it.

 

[Repli.Cant]

I think he's joking, Isabelle doesn't really seem like an MkLeo character, and even if she might be better than people think, I'm highly skeptical of her being top 15. MkLeo is a contender for best in the world, it seems unlikely he'd main a character who isn't even top 15.

Him using her as a rare secondary/pocket is more plausible though, but as a main? I highly doubt it.

fungus i got b8ed

Either way, him whipping out Isabelle would be pretty hilarious. Buuuuut to segway into a topic...

Thoughts on ? Does the issue with her really just boil down to being better?

 

[Frihetsanka]

Thoughts on ? Does the issue with her really just boil down to being better?

Not really, she has significant issues on her own from what I can tell, making her rather underwhelming. Her down-B seems inconsistent, side-B seems mostly to be good for edgeguarding and ledgetrapping (from what I can tell), and she lost many tools Villager had (I imagine it's harder to kill with her in general). Villager doesn't exactly seem great in this game either.

I'm sure players more familiar with Isabelle and/or Villager can go more in depth, but that's my impression of them.

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Leo was playing Greninja most of Saturday before Nimbus, against m2k. You can probably find the vods. He tweeted something mysterious to stroder during nimbus, too. Greninja mains, prepare for the nerfs! Jk

 

[Ark of Silence101]

Not really, she has significant issues on her own from what I can tell, making her rather underwhelming. Her down-B seems inconsistent, side-B seems mostly to be good for edgeguarding and ledgetrapping (from what I can tell), and she lost many tools Villager had (I imagine it's harder to kill with her in general). Villager doesn't exactly seem great in this game either.

I'm sure players more familiar with Isabelle and/or Villager can go more in depth, but that's my impression of them.

As someone who has a pocket Isabelle, I can confirm what your statement says, she has to camp for longer periods for less reward and with worse tools available.
On another topic, what's the general consensus on the Smash4 DLC gang in Ultimate?, who would you say is currently the best and the worst?

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

Recently everyone got the answer to Leo's "new main":

There was a problem fetching the tweet

He does play Isabelle on his streams, but this is still pretty funny. lol

I do remember that tweet, but the next week after that I've also seen him playing a lot of Greninja on stream as well funny enough. Not to mention, after Stroder beat Tweek at Nimbus, I saw Leo tweet this out:

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Does this mean what I think it means? I sure hope so. Having a super top level player dedicate time into Greninja would be very interesting to see. We've had high level players use the character in S4 for example but never anyone very deep into Top 50 PGR level. Who knows how long he would stick with the character or if he would even go all the way through with it, but I would be lying if I said I didn't find interest in the idea.

Speaking of players picking up Greninja however, I saw many tweets of players considering the idea within the past two weeks. Dath has dedicated himself to Gren/Robin and now Promaelia has dedicated himself to Gren/Chrom:

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Lots of notable players are talking about the character as of late. I've seen Seagull Joe try him out, Frozen/Odyssey/Rishi expressed interest in the character, even Light has considered making him a secondary:

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What a crazy world we live in

 

[fozzy fosbourne]

Remember Plup has also been a Greninja main since Genesis.

 

[Frihetsanka]

Greninja is a character with great potential, and this style and archetypes seems to do well in this game in general, especially once people have been given more time to discover how to play him properly. It wouldn't surprise me if more top players like MkLeo or Tweek or Mr. R or someone ended up maining him.

 

[KamikazePotato]

Results for Ultimate Nimbus
9th: MastaMario
9th: Charliedaking

Random aside - these are guys that Nicko (best current Shulk player, and really the only Shulk who is very notable) frequently beats in local tournaments. He also took Void to two Games 5s in a recent tournament, and overall has been performing extremely well as of late.

But according to his twitter, he couldn't participate because he had work that weekend. Really drives home to me how character tournament results for certain characters are entirely dependent on specific people showing up.

 

[Gearkeeper-8a]

I do remember that tweet, but the next week after that I've also seen him playing a lot of Greninja on stream as well funny enough. Not to mention, after Stroder beat Tweek at Nimbus, I saw Leo tweet this out:

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Does this mean what I think it means? I sure hope so. Having a super top level player dedicate time into Greninja would be very interesting to see. We've had high level players use the character in S4 for example but never anyone very deep into Top 50 PGR level. Who knows how long he would stick with the character or if he would even go all the way through with it, but I would be lying if I said I didn't find interest in the idea.

Speaking of players picking up Greninja however, I saw many tweets of players considering the idea within the past two weeks. Dath has dedicated himself to Gren/Robin and now Promaelia has dedicated himself to Gren/Chrom:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Lots of notable players are talking about the character as of late. I've seen Seagull Joe try him out, Frozen/Odyssey/Rishi expressed interest in the character, even Light has considered making him a secondary:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

What a crazy world we live in

talk is cheap, if you don't have results with the character then being a "secondary" is meaningless, the good results that greninja gets will be from players that main the character, like , or , of course some top players can pick the character and do good but will they main the character or drop him the moment they lost in a tournament?

 

[ReVerbIsSuperb]

talk is cheap, if you don't have results with the character then being a "secondary" is meaningless, the good results that greninja gets will be from players that main the character, like , or , of course some top players can pick the character and do good but will they main the character or drop him the moment they lost in a tournament?

Uh...I never implied any of this other than the fact I think its cool to see more people find interest in the character LOL

I fully understand that the character is hard to master and has unintuitive workarounds to problems compared to other Top Tiers and I've already come to terms with the truth of not many of them actually sticking with Greninja in the long run due to this.

Once people realize you have to actually put in effort to focusing on abusing your mobility and whiff punish ability rather than block and respond with offensive OOS options (Did anyone say Nair?) and that you have to actually space your aerials properly to be safe, they won't last long.

But for the ones that do stick with him, his array of kill confirms, neutral prowess, movement and his unique traits/moves might be enough to break away from the linearity that plagues other characters and have him stand out enough to keep people interested.

All the notable players putting in the majority of big results with the character at the moment are specialists that mained Greninja back in S4 (Lea, Stroder, Venia, Akashic, JW, etc). The only one that immediately comes to mind in regards to new blood is Plup who placed 49th at Frostbite. He's fundamentally sound as a player. If he sticks with the character in the future, (and labs out his punish game/kill confirms a little more) who knows. But only time will tell. As for now, I'm just happy to see the character doing well.

 

[The_Bookworm]

I do remember that tweet, but the next week after that I've also seen him playing a lot of Greninja on stream as well funny enough. Not to mention, after Stroder beat Tweek at Nimbus, I saw Leo tweet this out:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Does this mean what I think it means? I sure hope so. Having a super top level player dedicate time into Greninja would be very interesting to see. We've had high level players use the character in S4 for example but never anyone very deep into Top 50 PGR level. Who knows how long he would stick with the character or if he would even go all the way through with it, but I would be lying if I said I didn't find interest in the idea.

Speaking of players picking up Greninja however, I saw many tweets of players considering the idea within the past two weeks. Dath has dedicated himself to Gren/Robin and now Promaelia has dedicated himself to Gren/Chrom:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

Lots of notable players are talking about the character as of late. I've seen Seagull Joe try him out, Frozen/Odyssey/Rishi expressed interest in the character, even Light has considered making him a secondary:

There was a problem fetching the tweet

What a crazy world we live in

I think our froggy friend just turned into the FotM of March. So many people are trying him out lol.

The only difference between the frog and previous FotMs, is that he is not really easy to play.

 

[ShadowGuy1]

I actually recall prior to Genesis Leo was showing interest in Greninja and I believe had him in his list of his “best characters” he made after Smash Conference. Either way as a fellow Greninja main I am hella hyped to see top players using him. But I fear he’s about to get nerfed like in smash 4

 

[Sean²]

I have in lower high tier. He's better than mid tiers but falls short of top tiers.

Anyone know what Belmont's MU spread is like? I've see Richter used to CP Olimar so that's something. IMO YL beats them but I've only played vs 1 so that's not a lot of experience.

Pretty sure it’s either super hot or super cold, they don’t have much of a middle ground. They make big bodies and slow characters without projectiles their *******, but anyone who can shut down their projectile game, reliably get around said projectile game, or gimp them easily just ruin them. Which is a shame because they’re one of the only characters in the Zoner archetype who are extremely hype and fun to watch.

I actually recall prior to Genesis Leo was showing interest in Greninja and I believe had him in his list of his “best characters” he made after Smash Conference. Either way as a fellow Greninja main I am hella hyped to see top players using him. But I fear he’s about to get nerfed like in smash 4

Why would Greninja be nerfed? I know it was like a meme thing from Smash 4 but I don’t see any reason for him to be nerfed now. It’s all I’m seeing when Greninja is mentioned as a good character. Are greninja players that riddled with Smash 4 PTSD? Or does he have something nearing lightning-loop-level-OP that I’m missing somewhere? I’ve been drag-down-uaired into jab lock before but that doesn’t seem that ridiculous.

 

[NotLiquid]

You fools. Frog Faction is no longer going to be cool hip underground place to be.

But that's okay I'll just be here in the background waiting for the squid uprising.

 

[SwagGuy99]

It's not a very relevant matchup, but they beat Rosalina quite comfortably. Between their aerials, ftilt, and projectiles, Luma is basically permadead. Beyond that, Rosa is a huge floaty body so it makes approaching very difficult.
Rosa's reward for a neutral win is still pretty good though between juggling and edgeguarding (though both those things are much harder to do with a dead Luma). It's not an unwinnable matchup or anything, but it's definitely in Belmont's favor just because they're probably the best Luma killers in the game.

I can imagine all have a hard time with them if they can't land an early hit, they all get outranged extremely easily.

As someone who has a pocket Isabelle, I can confirm what your statement says, she has to camp for longer periods for less reward and with worse tools available.
On another topic, what's the general consensus on the Smash4 DLC gang in Ultimate?, who would you say is currently the best and the worst?

If I had to rank them, I'd rank them like this:

Top Tier



High Tier



Mid Tier



Low Tier

 

[N8than]

fungus i got b8ed

Either way, him whipping out Isabelle would be pretty hilarious. Buuuuut to segway into a topic...

Thoughts on ? Does the issue with her really just boil down to being better?

I can imagine all have a hard time with them if they can't land an early hit, they all get outranged extremely easily.


If I had to rank them, I'd rank them like this:

Top Tier



High Tier



Mid Tier



Low Tier

I feel like doesn't have enough results to be considered definite top tier, although I feel like he is an upper high tier character.

 

[Nobie]

Some people are leaders, and some people are followers.

But then some people will fail as leaders, and others will succeed as followers.

 

[Frihetsanka]

[...]Promaelia has dedicated himself to Gren/Chrom

It's not looking good for Corrin's representation, Promaelia was the last notable Corrin semi-main as far as I know. LetsTickle (Canadian player who used to main Inkling with a Corrin secondary) recently dropped Corrin, too:

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At this rate, it wouldn't surprise me if Corrin is going to end up with bottom 10 results.

Anyone know what Belmont's MU spread is like?

They seem to have a fairly uneven MU chart, losing several MUs -2 (potentially some -3 MUs), making them very risky as solo mains. On the other hand, they probably beat a bunch of characters too (especially mid tiers), so they might have some meta relevance, especially if you pick up a secondary to deal with some of their bad MUs. Their flaws are likely too great for them to ever be high tier, but they could be high-mid tier characters.

 

[The_Bookworm]

It's not looking good for Corrin's representation, Promaelia was the last notable Corrin semi-main as far as I know. LetsTickle (Canadian player who used to main Inkling with a Corrin secondary) recently dropped Corrin, too:

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At this rate, it wouldn't surprise me if Corrin is going to end up with bottom 10 results.

They seem to have a fairly uneven MU chart, losing several MUs -2 (potentially some -3 MUs), making them very risky as solo mains. On the other hand, they probably beat a bunch of characters too (especially mid tiers), so they might have some meta relevance, especially if you pick up a secondary to deal with some of their bad MUs. Their flaws are likely too great for them to ever be high tier, but they could be high-mid tier characters.

Doesn't Corrin already have bottom 10, or near bottom 10 results? Even with those two players, I hardly see the character anywhere.

 

[PsySmasher]

As someone who has a pocket Isabelle, I can confirm what your statement says, she has to camp for longer periods for less reward and with worse tools available.
On another topic, what's the general consensus on the Smash4 DLC gang in Ultimate?, who would you say is currently the best and the worst?

Hmm... is the best of the DLC gang (in my opinion), but I’m unsure if he’s top tier or high tier.

For now I’ll say:

Top Tier: None
High Tier:
Mid Tier:
Low Tier:

is also difficult to place, but for now I’ll say he’s near the top of mid tier.

 

[Minordeth]

I could see Leo sticking with Greninja, actually. The character has some parallels with S4 Metaknight, now that the Frog’s dash attack is so good. But Ult(ra Instinct) Gren has a much stronger neutral that S4 MK.

You combine a swordie with some extreme bait and punish action, and you have a character that seems up his alley - at least on paper. Now that I think about it, I’m surprised he hasn’t experimented with the character sooner, although the cast is massive.

Anyway, if Leo could bait out whiffs from ZeRo with S4 MK’s linear neutral, he should do okay with Gren.

 

[The_Bookworm]

On another topic, what's the general consensus on the Smash4 DLC gang in Ultimate?, who would you say is currently the best and the worst?

and are the best of the DLC crew, although both of them are probably upper high tier. is either lower high tier or upper mid tier.

From there, the positions of the rest of DLC characters are below high tier and kind of subjective.

For my personal opinion: I am still on the boat that sucks. I am also kind of underwhelmed by and , especially Corrin. is kind of a guess on where he is, considering that his metagame is most likely never going to be as developed as a lot of other characters, unless he gets buffed from patches.

 

[Gleam]

is, as much as I would hate to admit it, not good. She completely lacks the things that made her a near top tier character in Smash4, combos, setups, and many things such as her recovery and Neutral B have been nerfed. She can still catch you off guard with a good "pin" here and there but yeah, she's just not good and definitely nowhere near as good as she was before. Everything that made her so good before is gone.

I think she would struggle enough in the bottom of Mid where I'd havepeople like at.

I think she'd struggle enough against characters like who I have in relatively Low tier.

When you play her, you can feel a semblance of something that could be good but it needs much more work to be applicable.

 

[TumblrFamous]

and are the best of the DLC crew, although both of them are probably upper high tier. is either lower high tier or upper mid tier.

From there, the positions of the rest of DLC characters are below high tier and kind of subjective.

For my personal opinion: I am still on the boat that sucks. I am also kind of underwhelmed by and , especially Corrin. is kind of a guess on where he is, considering that his metagame is most likely never going to be as developed as a lot of other characters, unless he gets buffed from patches.

Anyone that thinks Lucas is good is lying to themselves. Easy combo fodder, weak combo game, no followups except these crazy specific circumstances. Anyone that thinks his N Special or aerial buffs more than make up for his pitiful performance in any other category is lying to themselves.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

To be honest, I'm not really seeing what makes Corrin underwhelming. To my knowledge, he basically plays like a discount Ike with less rewarding, but less punishable tools, and some things like Side B letting him stand out. Given how amazing Ike is in this game, that's not an awful thing at all and I suspect MKLeo rated him so highly on his tier list because of this. Now, Corrin's lack of results will likely keep him as an objective low-tier, but in terms of actual tools and usability, I feel you could do a lot worse.

 

[Frihetsanka]

BestNess made a matchup chart for Ness:

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That... doesn't looking good. Even if those -3 MUs are just -2 or even -1 MUs that's a lot of losing MUs.

 

[Rizen]

Anyone that thinks Lucas is good is lying to themselves. Easy combo fodder, weak combo game, no followups except these crazy specific circumstances. Anyone that thinks his N Special or aerial buffs more than make up for his pitiful performance in any other category is lying to themselves.

I agree Lucas is underwhelming. When I fought him as YL he didn't have the tools to oppress or the reward to make up for it.

BestNess made a matchup chart for Ness:

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That... doesn't looking good. Even if those -3 MUs are just -2 or even -1 MUs that's a lot of losing MUs.

I'm no Ness player but that chart seems pessimistic. -3 was brawl Link's MU vs Falco and MK. I can't see Ness losing that hard.

 

[The_Bookworm]

BestNess made a matchup chart for Ness:

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That... doesn't looking good. Even if those -3 MUs are just -2 or even -1 MUs that's a lot of losing MUs.

This might be just reverse ESAM stigma. While some players think that their own main is underrated, there are plenty that thinks their main is overrated. I do not see Ness losing that badly to those -3, or even -2 matchups, especially Corrin.


Aside from that, I recently found a gold mine in this video:

Game balance is definitely not just one straight route, especially this early in the meta.

 

[Frihetsanka]

To be honest, I'm not really seeing what makes Corrin underwhelming.

Exploitable recovery, bad neutral, bad disadvantage, struggles to kill, slow movement speed, combo food.

 

[SwagGuy99]

is also difficult to place, but for now I’ll say he’s near the top of mid tier.

is weird to place and he was in Smash 4 too. In theory, he should be pretty good because of his amazing air game and good zoning with PK Fire. The buffs to PK Freeze help a lot in matchups against light characters and helps his edgeguarding game a lot (that launch angle is stupid his edgeguarding was already decent to begin with LOL). However, his ground game and ground movement speed aren't really noticeable and his recovery can be edgeguarded easily by a lot of characters.

However, I beleive that may have one noticeable top tier matchup that he wins: as this matchup was generally agreed to slightly be in Lucas's favor in Smash 4 and probably still is. (He may win against as well). I'm optimistic for this character though.

 

[The_Bookworm]

is weird to place and he was in Smash 4 too. In theory, he should be pretty good because of his amazing air game and good zoning with PK Fire. The buffs to PK Freeze help a lot in matchups against light characters and helps his edgeguarding game a lot (that launch angle is stupid his edgeguarding was already decent to begin with LOL). However, his ground game and ground movement speed aren't really noticeable and his recovery can be edgeguarded easily by a lot of characters.

However, I beleive that may have one noticeable top tier matchup that he wins: as this matchup was generally agreed to slightly be in Lucas's favor in Smash 4 and probably still is. (He may win against as well). I'm optimistic for this character though.

His air game is not all that great. All of his aerials, aside from f-air, have somewhat awkward hitbox placements, or made to not be much of an approaching tool. It is certainty better than in SSB4 (having a proper up air hitbox is great), but still not too good, especially relative to the cast. PK Fire is a good move, but it isn't the best move for zoning, mostly because of the move's frame data. PK Freeze is rewarding to hit, and can be devastating when it does hit. Good luck actually landing the move against a good player though.

Although I do think lowly of Lucas atm, you might be on to something about his matchup against the rats. His magnet and tether attack helps out the matchup quite a bit.

 

[ParanoidDrone]

Re: Lucas, I'm still baffled as to why aerial PK Fire gets canceled on landing. It's always felt awkward to me.

Re: Rosalina/Belmont MU, I don't disagree that Belmonts win because it's absolutely true that Luma can't really contest the whip, but I wonder if Gravitational Pull isn't a unique tool that would make them a little less oppressive than one would expect. Easier to focus on spacing when you can straight up delete projectiles around you.

 

[ILOVESMASH]

Exploitable recovery, bad neutral, bad disadvantage, struggles to kill, slow movement speed, combo food.

Exploitable recovery is a weakness, but that simply isn't enough of a reason to make a character underwhelming. Look at characters like Wolf, Ike, Chrom, and Roy, who all have exploitable recoveries, but make up for it due to having powerful traits in other areas. Now, I'm not claiming Corrin to be on these character's power level (except for Ike since I find the two to be the most comparable), but he does have some pretty powerful tools in his kit, specifically Nair, and most of his other moves like Fair, F-Tilt, and down-tilt certainly aren't bad.

In terms of disadvantage, Corrin is a bit lacking, but certainly not hopeless since Nair can cover a good deal of his lower body when he's landing. I'd say his Nair in disadvantage is better than Ike's since it comes out faster, although their disadvantage states overall are probably about the same.

Corrin Neutral, though linear, isn't bad simply due to Nair having such good range and damage potential, similar to Ike. I'll say that Ike's neutral is better because of his better airspeed and grab, but Corrin still has the main tool that makes Ike so threatening and oppressive. Like Ike, he can capitalize on his Nair with similar 50-50s / confirms into Up-Air, Fair, and even neutral B at certain percentages. Even at the highest percentages, Nair does a good at setting up for an Up-Air or Back-Air, so I'd argue killing isn't too difficult either, even if Corrin lacks a spammable kill option that other characters like Wolf have.

 

[Envoy of Chaos]

BestNess made a matchup chart for Ness:

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That... doesn't looking good. Even if those -3 MUs are just -2 or even -1 MUs that's a lot of losing MUs.

Even the worst characters in this game aren't agreed upon to have any -3s if only one or two, there is no way Ness has 6 of them, especially to characters like Palutena or Mega Man. While I do agree on a few things on here this looks hastily thrown together without much thought out into it. Totally respect Bestness as a player but this is just bad lol.

 

[Foie]

Friendly reminder to please keep Ness talk from dominating this thread...